dalsingh101

OK, maybe we should now all talk about what can be done by all parties in a realistic fashion to help us unite. From what i can see there will always be amritdharis in the panth AS WELL as monay. What are we going to do, avoid each other? Truth be told, when we are all under attack, people will quickly forget all this segregation and start viewing each other as equals. Also I'm going to post a thread about Kaura Mal, who was a sehajdhari Sikh governor in the Panjab and helped the Khalsa big time when they were outlawed by giving information about enemy movements and secretly supplying them with food and weapons when anyone caught doing so was killed. Was he a manmukh because he didn't take amrit? Amrit was always a voluntary decision for the cream of the crop Sikhs. Look at Bhai Nand Lal who was devoted to Dasmesh Pita but doesn't seem to have taken amrit. This segregation is not only evil but also DUMB A S S. We need numbers to get by in this world in politics and military etc. Many times monay are much better at putting views across to wider society than Amritdharis simply because of their experience. ANY community is made up of a wide spectrum of individuals, that much is plain indisputable fact. ACCEPT IT. So again, WHAT CAN WE ALL DO TO OVERCOME THESE BARRIERS WE ARE PLACING BETWEEN US? Amritdharis, if you were facing annilation you would appreciate the help you would get from ANYONE, be they monay, goray or whatever. Seeing as the panth is struggling to defend itself as well as represent itself, right across the globe, I suggest we make full use of the resources we have between us. However we look.

I think Guru Tegh Bahadur left the young Gobind Rai there because he knew things were going to get serious with the moguls. They might have kidnapped him after the public execution of our ninth padshaah for example. Apparently both Guru Tegh Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh Ji did some major tours in their time which included lots of areas down south India. This is where he met Banda Bahadur. Also note where some of the panj piaray come from - down south India - so they were active in their parchaar around there.

Bhai Ji I think you have mixed up Udham Singh for Bhagat Singh. Udham Singh was the guy who came to London and shot the person who was a high ranking governor when the Jallianwala Bagh massacre happened. Even if he wasn't Gursikh, he still represented the ankhila Panjab spirit to the max. A lot of current amritdharis could learn from him no?

OK lets hope that the day will come when we can be more inclusive of each other. Amritdharis, because of the step they have made should be at the forefront of this. UNITE US PLEASE - WE REALLY NEED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look I know for a fact that the vast majority (not all!) of Sikhs that were giving sulay (who were taking big liberties with the panth) in the U.K. a run for their money were monay. Yes some keshdhari/amritdhari Sikhs were involved but they were in the minority. In fact many of the ones who did grow their hair later were monay previously. Talk to anyone around in the scene in the mid to late 90s in London and they will confirm that. The truth be told, the SP crew came from a really diverse range of backgrounds but what did unite them was the fact that all Sikhs were being targetted, esp. girls. This had the (what now seems) temporary effect of making all types of Sikhs view each other as brothers. It was a good feeling. What I think IS really sad today is how so-called Gursikhs throw labels around like manmukh to anyone who doesn't conform to their ideas of what a Sikh should be. Some actually extend this to all not amritdharis. I made a point before on this site that this is ridiculous. If an atheist doctor with a haircut who drank occasionally performed an operation on you or a member of your family to save them from a serious illness would you still look down on them in this way? So my point is that many so-called "manmukhs" according to this way of thinking are actually better than some pompous amritdharis. A brother made a point about amritdharis being prone to all the character defects that the rest of humanity suffers from. This is why I don't believe amrit is for everyone. Such people should not even consider taking amrit until they resolve these issues in themselves. Many people who do take amrit don't and the end result is that many people who experience interaction with them go away thinking "what a bunch of t w a t s they are! That is what I think is behind post such as these. There seems to be no quality of bunday taking amrit nowerdays. Before lots of people used to look up to them, not so now. This isn't helped by the fact that all of the corrupt politicians in the Punjab also hide behind the external roop of the Khalsa and do all sorts of bad crap. And it is true that when action goes down on a street level, it is usually sehajdharis at the forefront. Where is the house cleaning by the progressive members of the Khalsa? There used to be a Khalsa ideal when I was growing up of a noble, liberal person who bravely stood up against oppression i.e. a saint-soldiers. This doesn't even seem to exist anymore! Instead people seem to be rigidly hiding behind really strict interpretations of Gurmat that are totally oblivious to wider social and political concerns that Sikhs have. Pragmatism or realism is a requirement to survive in this world. Sikhs have gone from being a powerful political and military force (pre-Anglo-Sikh wars)to becoming tamed and oppressed in their own homeland. Corruption has set in all our institutes (SGPC and Akali Dal). How can an amritdhari look down on any other Sikh under these circumstances? Should they be more vexed at amritdharis who are destroying the panth from within? No offence intended folks but we need to discuss these things!

I done a postgrad certificate in Psychology but more as an interest than a career thing. I maybe be able to help you with the studying bit. Fire away. I'll help if I can. PM me if you need to.

What I want to know is - has the Khalsa become so powerless that they can't eject someone like this and replace him with someone more positive. If this is the case then does it not denote the end of the Sikh movement?

Sis, Keep your head up. Life is full of all sorts of challenges sometimes. I know how being let down repeatedly can bring you down and make you not trust the world. But just try and keep yourself away from negative experiences. Like the seasons change so will your feelings in time. As surely as day follows night.

I would say I am more proud to be Sikh than British. Note I am not saying that growing up in Britain hasn't had a profound effect on me but that ultimately my Sikh identity and history resonates with me the most. Ultimately the history of Sikhs in the Punjab is that of my own blood. British people have a separate history. Also the relationship between Sikhs and British itself does have many dark episodes. I don't think it is untrue to say that the hard won Sikh sovereignty was lost directly because of the British invasion (referred to as annexation) of the Punjab. Sikhs have been suffering ever since (i.e. partition, 1984). I think we need to be balanced and careful when exploring past Anglo-Sikh relations. One could easily argue that it was colonial in nature and not based on equality but a servant master scenario. Only those that were loyal to British ideas and plans were rewarded in teh past and those that protested against colonialism were often executed or exiled. Racism still exists against Sikhs in British society but overall the Sikh ethos of hardwork and perseverance have paid off. More could be done by the media here to portray Sikhs in a positive light but I find the media here negative in general towards almost everything. I think many youth of Sikh descent struggle with identity here, especially since the war on terror has started. I've spoken to a few Singhs and they tell me that they do get disgusted looks in public sometimes probably due to confusion with Muslims. I do believe that the majority of British people do have an aversion to all religions in general and many often say that they do not understand how one can be "embroiled" in all that. Sometimes following your own culture here can mark you off as an outsider from what I've seen. We still have lots of work to do to create a positive relationship based on equality with the wider society here. Solely being appreciated for our economic contributions is not enough. But Sikhs are still a dynamic people and they seem to fare well in the face of all the adversity they face.

I think he basically made a porno.

Just installed Firefox, been using it on and off for that last few hours. Not a pop up in sight. Lets hope it stays that way! Thanks everyone for your advice!!!

After I ran spybot I noticed the Ads started coming back again. Thsi happend whenever I open a newpage in IE. Guess I should move over to Firefox. Can I unistall IE5? or is it ok just to make Firefox my default browser?

Awesome

Thank you for your responses. I'm going to look into them now. That AVG sounds good. ------------------------- Have now done this. Seems to have done the trick. Thank you my brothers. WJKK WJKF

I'm getting really nervous about these. I often get pop ups and stuff despite having popups set to be blocked. Anyone know of any free software I can get to check and clean up my system? I have Nortons Antivirus and a Firewall installed already. Help me techies.......

Don't get me wrong I agree with everything you've said above. I'm saying the panth could be in a better position in this modern day and age. What you are talking about is piri or spiritual matters. I'm just talking about the other "miri" side. Since the time of our chevin badshah we have been told to keep an eye on both. I'm not saying Guruji will wonder. The only wondering going on here is by me. I'm sure Guru ji would've had advice for us in terms of politics and media and stuff. I mean what would Guru ji say about the fact Sikhs get mistaken for Muslims when we are supposed to be niaara? I'm sure he would give us a plan. He was a top strategist remember! Plus don't forget he had one of the best educations his time could offer. That much is fact.

Just dreaming or thinking out loud but I think Guru ji would say wah to a lot of things in todays world. I often wonder what dasmesh pita would think of today's military standards. The weapons such as missles, nuclear bombs, fighter jets. What would he think? What would he say to the Khalsa? Also what about technology that we take for granted today. What would Guru ji think of the Internet, mobile phones and stuff? If we told our ancestors that we would be able to communicate with someone and see moving pictures of what they were doing in another country pretty much live, they would've said it was some sort of magic! If Guru ji came down now, in this modern time and was to give us some pointers on how to proceed in this new world that is so unlike the one around him during his time here, what guidance would he give us? What would he condemn, what would he applaud? One thing though, I think he would have a lot of love and sympathy for the offspring of the movement he initiated (with Gods grace) and try and lead us to the right way like he always did/does.

Very well put. Although Gurbani is supreme and no Sikh would say otherwise let us remember that as humans living in this turbulent ocean of life we CAN learn alot from others experiences and subjects outside of religion. People have to be careful. Do you not think that in this empirical life there are also important things for us to learn other than Bani? Look at medical science for example. I have full respect for those that spend their lives trying to find cures for diseases and illnesses. Any Gursikh who falls seriously sick and has to go hospital and is saved by a surgeon or some medicine would know that there are important things out there outside of religion. Would you call the surgeon a manmukh or teh person who has devoted his/her life to develop a medicine for teh betterment of mankind? This is not to imply that our spiritual side is in anyway unimportant but that the world around us is complex and we need to grasp this complexity and not just stay closeted up. I remember only a few decades ago their was the image of the Khalsa that was current. It was highly idealised but still beautiful. It spoke of bravery and concern for the oppressed. When we as a community start to dogmatically and rigidly follow our faith and become blinded to the wider world around us, we will become pointless. All of the people who do lots of simran, that is just so excellent, but don't forget that achieving spirituality isn't just this. We all know that seva is a central part, that doesn't just mean serving and making langar but also wider seva to the world. Frankly Sikhs are lacking in this at the moment, thats what i feel anyway. No offence. One love to the Sikh nation.

"me too me too. but i end up not hangin around with any singhs, becuz they dont let me have ketchup wid my chips, unless its sarblohi." HOW DO YOU MAKE KETCHUP SARBLOHI?

Maybe I'm showing my age now but i think you are wrong to judge other communities creativity and music without having a broader understanding. The truth is that Hip Hop in its early days provided a platform for some seriously poor and oppressed people to be heard. This wasn't all it was about but black people used it to raise the consciousness of their people on a global level with groups such as Public Enemy. You could argue that prior to Hip Hop there was no global platform for communicating certain feelings and opinions as mass media was firmly in the hands of goray, who often abused [and still do abuse] it and try to stifle perspectives other than the western one. That is not to say that negative stuff isn't contained in some hip hop tracks but I could the same for Panjabi music, but we still have some conscious lyricists such as Manak. I see Hip Hop as a black version of vaars, and before anyone bites my head of remember that dhadhis didn't only sing about Sikhi and bravery but also romance (mirza etc.) long BEFORE Sikhi came to the earth. Panjabis have their own "gangsta" stuff with Jagga Jatt, Jeona Maur plus all the anti government dhadhi (i.e. 1984, Bhagat Singh & Udham Singh, Khalistani), let the kalay have theirs. Plus they have been at the forefront of developing the use of technology in creating music and others only followed much later. I like some Hip Hop, some just plain sucks. But we could learn a lot from how some seriously deprived kalay from the most busted up ghettos of New York managed to create, foster and develop this form from street corners into a multi billion dollar international business from nothing in a few decades. I remember watching a documentary where Afrika Bambata (a pioneer in Hip Hop from the early 80s) talked about his group trying to create some new routes for the youth in the ghetto because things were so messed up and no employment prospects existed. So hip hop is not all negative. Plus we can easily talk of Panjabi music encouraging violence, casteism, drinking and lusty behaviour so don't throw stones. Also music such as gospel ort conscious reggae dub is also very spiritual in nature and I can't see any wrong with Sikhs listening to some of this when it talks of God only (not Jesus etc.).

I can read Gurmukhi but if I try and write it I think I may break some sort of record for spelling mistakes.

IK ONG KAR SATGUR PARSAD! Friend, It is a pity that Indians as a whole have faced racial discrimination abroad for over centuries! Britishers damaged our culture and enslaved us. We still get looked down upon as the *inferior race*. Dunno how can they be made to taste their own medicine... Sigh... Bhul chuk maaf karnee ji!! I don't know about this. I think there may be two types of Sikh. The first is the easily manipulatable type that I think you are referring too. This type can't see any wrong with goray and is keen to be seen as enthusiastically joining his cause. The other is an obstinate stubborn <admin-profanity filter activated> that takes his self-respect gravely serious and has contempt for anyone who tries to create some hierarchy where he is placed at a disadvantage. The second type is in the minority but represents the ankhila Panjab spirit the first represents all the baboos under the British and those that sell out everything of their own heritage to get on in western society.

I think a large component of freedom is the ability to have your own destiny in your own hands without some oppressive force stifling you. But then this could be your parents or wife so, I think my definition may be a bit crap.

How about "Jaws" ?

That bit about Banda escaping is hard to believe. There are loads of Persian witness accounts of him being brought to Delhi and executed with his son, unless it was someone else who was acting as Banda. But the other stuff is what I've heard as well. The Fateh was changed from WJKK WJKF to "Fateh Darshan", the colour of clothes preferred by Bandais was red not blue, they didn't eat onions and garlic and were strict vegetarians. Bandais wanted to make him the eleventh Guru for his sacrifices. The Tat Khalsa originally fought with Banda but I think they fought their way out of the cordon placed around the area where Banda was finally captured.