chatanga

Scholars? Isn't that were you have gone wrong? Following the 10th Grade pass "Professors", when you should be listening to Gyanis, well-versed in Gurbani and trained in Gurmat for years before they are allowed to preach? No thank you.

Name calling ? After the things you wrote on Sikhawareness? Really? The historical tract which was deviously represented by you was seen through by a person with no historical knowledge. Plain and simple.

That's good, and that is the strategy we need to adopt in numbers. No matter where and when they produce their shallowness, we need to counter it.

The NIhangs have been antagonistic towards SGPC since 1920s when SGPC took over Sri Akal Takht Sahib, which Dal Panth see as their traditional seat. Regarding jathedari, the SGPC have been playing this game for a while, seeing which faction will be more co-operative with them if not loyal to them. They knew they had no chance with Baba Surjeet Singh, and opted to recognise Balbir Singh instead. It's petty and wrong but that kind of sums up the SGPC at the moment. SGPC did the same thing with Damdami Taksal recognising Baba Mohan Singh over Sant Kartar Singh, and then recognising Ram Singh over Baba Harnam Singh. With the samprdais they do state that this is the maryada of their samprdai, but it's a fair point, it's something that could be reiterated a little more.

Mool Raj and Chatter Singh were to form an alliance to fight the british. Lawrence sent a letter, which was to be allowed to fall into Mool Raj's hands. This letter was written to Chattar Singh informing him to form an alliance with Mool raj and then destroy him. When Mool Raj got this letter, he thought it was genuine and refused Chattar Singh's offer of a joint force. Thus the Sikhs were deceived into beleiving others as traitors and then working against them. Which is what we saw against Bhai Harminder Singh Sandhu. Did you ever watch "spartacus" and how Crassus had his adversaries killed by writing a simple letter designed to fall into the wrong hands? And even only a few years ago, this "falcon" agent was named as Shaheed Bhai Amrik Singh in a book by nayyar.

That is a very good analysis Balkaar. Apart from Guru Gobind Singh Ji Purb has the traditional orders openly the determinations of Sri Akal Takht Sahib? I wouldn't say that the traditional orders set up their rehat maryadas in direct opposition to Sri Akal Takht's own, as they agree on most points and were in use hundreds of years before Sri Akal Takht Sahib had it's own maryada.

No, ManmatKosh, I am still committed to these projects but I CHOSE not to work on them with a person like you. Remember how you tried to deceive everyone on Sikhawareness.com with an edited tract from an historical granth? I would work on your hankar first. That should be your main project. I'm sure you'll find plenty of quotes from Guru Granth Sahib about hankar.

BUMP. Choose any area of Gurmat that you feel you can specialise in, and take it from there.

Jagraj Singh and/or Basics of Sikhi are not going to change everything by themselves. They are truly an inspiration to many including myself, but the bottom line is that we all have to become active like Jagraj Singh has in order to educate the younger Sikhs. We all have a part to play, but from what I have seen and experienced from younger Sikhs aged around 20-40, there is no desire there to do anything, and if there is, then it's only in small numbers which has little or no effect.

I would like to enquire whether any of the members here have seen the quite vigorous campaign on social media, especially Youtube, and Facebook concerning the Granth? Every day, new material seems to be coming up on Facebook and Youtube, and the number of people agreeing with the Singh Sabha Canada propaganda and "liking" it has grown to quite large numbers. Sri Akal Takht Sahib once decreed that no Sikhs should publicly debate Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth, but because of the continued nindya by Darshan Singh and Singh Sabha Canada and party, Sri Akal Takht Sahib issued a later decree that the nindaks of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth should be given fitting responses by the Sikhs worldwide. Maybe it's me, but I think that, that has not happened. I can't see any sustained approach by any group about doing parchar of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth. And if they have certainly not matching the level of activism by SS Canada. I have seen one program a year on Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth at one or two gurdwaras only. It seems that we, the Gazelle, are totally oblivious to the lion sneaking up.

Haven't you named other Sikhs, Sikhs who given their lives for the panth as agents? And you like me have done what, except make some posts on this forum? Yes mate I'm for real. And as you have said stakes were high. Very high. So high that suspicions and counter-suspicions overtook rational thought. Can I ask whether you are aware of Sardar Chatter Singh and Bhai Mool Raj's incident during 2nd anglo-Sikh war that stopped them forming an alliance? I'm glad to see that you think I haven't offended anyone up to now though. Cheers mate. Bro, Dr Sohan Singh knew the movement was going awry. Wassan Singh Zaffarwal knew it as well. They knew there was no future in it, as the indian govt was too strong, and also the ISI were not genuinely interested in Sikh rights. They were more interested in harming indian interests as well as wresting Kashmir from india. One day, soon I hope, the people involved in the Khalistan movement will pen their memoirs in great detail, so that when the next generation come to fight this fight, they will have a better understanding.

Bro, the decision not to contest the elections was a disaster. Dr Sohan Singh knew as did many others. By not contesting these election it was the beginning of the end of the current phase of the movement. As for calling others agents, it wasn't the first time. I doubt there was any genuine feeling by either faction that the others were agents. They just had differing views, but as you know the easiest way to malign anyone, politically in india, is to call them an agent. Even today people still claim Sant Jarnail Singh was an agent.

You asking me whether Harminder Singh is a relative of mine is also a typical indian trait. What Harnam Singh and Jasbir Singh have done for the Panth, you don't know. So there are two ways you can go from here. Carry on talking the ignorant trash you are, or talk to people aligned with them to find out their contribution to the movement. You clearly come across as someone who has very little idea of the movement and the things that went on, and have come to some really piss-poor conclusions. Typical indian again. Sikh24 said in their article "according to sources..." . You have taken a newspaper source with no facts or substantial sources and ran with it, like it was spun gold. Typical indian again. Even though Ram Singh was begging for forgiveness (and the video is on the net) from Baba Thakur Singh, about lying over being given mukhi-ship, you still support Ram Singh as the mukhi. Baba Thakur Singh never gave any such thing to Ram Singh. Typical indian, who still can't face facts even when they are undisputable. There is a lot of information you won't find in books, but one day I hope to see the ins and outs of the movement all written down. It would help a lot with any possible future movements. Elegance and grace is not my method. I say it as it is. You came to acquire so many "facts" about Baba Harnam Singh and Bhai Jasbir Singh, why can't you do the same for Dr Sohan SIngh? Wow. I have said that Bittu regretted the murder of Sandhu. I cannot give you a word for word transcript. It was Wassan Singh Zaffarwal who went to start a homotherapy business. Dr Sohan Singh did not want to boycott elections. It was Daljit Singh Bittu's idea and he forced Dr Sohan Singh down at gunpoint. At this point Dr Sohan Singh knew the movement was in at it's "beginning of the end" phase.

Please. You call slander other people and cry when it turns back on you? Typical indian. what other than illiterate, i have already responded and you say i haven't responded? I have not ignored Harminder Singh surrendering, meekly or otherwise. Truth is he became a prisoner, and equally true is, that I don't know why Harminder Singh was separate from his wife in the fighting. The only people who are aware are dead. The only writings about this are conjecture. A R Darshi wasn't there to witness this event, so I don't know if he can use any word before "surrendering". But you seem to be hankering after something, by asking why he let his mates die, as if he was the only one. Again I repeat the top leadership of the AISSF ended up as prisoners. Did they surrender meekly or otherwise I don't know. But what I do know, is that even in detention, and after their release from Jodhpur, these AISSF men remained dedicated to the movement. Right upto his murder, he was working for the freedom of the Sikh Panth. If you want to label Harminder Singh as a traitor, do it, but don't be a hypocrite. Label the other thousands who didn't/couldn't their pledge as traitors as well. Label the AISSF as traitors as well. According to sikh24... Thats hardly a 100% certified truth is it? Slander? Silence the truth? What truth have you brought that needs to be silenced? As as for slander, maybe you need to get off that high horse of yours. These Sikhs gave a lot for the freedom of the Sikh people, and an illiterate government agent like you, feels they can denigrate their sacrifice? That is real slander.

I did respond to it: Maybe you need to read more carefully? Any of it, you don't understand, any words with more than one syllable etc, I can help you with. And using Gill's sidetracked from it in what way? Is it untrue that Gill along with the AISSF top brass were arrested and thrown in Jodhpur jail? Maybe you need understanding what "sidetracked" means? That is hilarious. You don't know half the things that went on from the quality and content of your posts, yet will "continue to speak the truth." If you don't know the truth or all the facts, all you have are half-baked facts, and you know that half the truth is worse than a lie. If it was documented that Harnam Singh Dhumma wanted Bhai Jasbir Singh to be next jathedar, maybe you can provide some evidence of it? Whatever Harnam Singh Dhumma's shortcomings in your opinion, he forced through the building of the Shaheedi Yaadgar of Operation Bluestar, even when SGPC were adamant it would not be built. Anyways, if you have any credible evidence of Bhai Harminder Singh being a traitor, please share. Don't bother with conjecture, because it means nothing. Bring facts.

I don't know it. But I'm surprised that you, as a confirmed indian agent are asking me. you already know his address. Officials? Officials of what ? Your country india? When did I claim that I could not say what Daljit Singh Bittu said? I have already said that Bittu regretted Sandhu's murder. What are you confused on? The army did not shoot everyone. You need to research your agency's material more clearly. There were many hundreds of Sikhs arrested by the army during bluestar. A good few hundred up in Jodhpur jail known as "The Jodhpur detainees", all top activist Sikhs. Question your agency more carefully, Mr Man1. Thanks. Bhai Harminder Singh, Bhai Manjit Singh, Bhai Rajinder Singh Mehta, the eventual traitor Harminder Singh Gill, Bhai Amarjit Singh Chawla all survived. Where the army got them, I don't know.

That's no excuse to not do your research. I'll give you a pointer though, if you are able to follow it through, and the same goes to khalsa1469. Next time either of you are in Panjab, go and meet "Mr Daljeet Singh Bittu" who shared responsibility for Harminder Singhs' death, and ask him if Sandhu was a traitor. And before you ask, I have been there when he was asked, but I would rather you found your own answer to it. And when do you meet him, ask him how much Mr Jasbir Singh Rode helped him when he was in jail. I CAN say for sure, but would rather you did it yourself.

Ok, can you also verify that there were hundreds/thousands of Sikhs that promised to die if the army attacked the Golden Temple, who surrendered alongside Harminder Singh? Have all these thousands who surrendered been officially branded as cowards?

No, because I don't know. But if we look at your figures, tens of thousands took the vow, yet there were only 150 fighters. Did the other tens of thousands and that 850 group of Sikhs receive the same allegations?

Thank you. Shaheed Harminder Singh Sandhu has been discussed on this forum before. Do a search and read up about it. I would give it an attempt if Bhai Sahib ever said these words.

It wasn't based on an individual but a small group of people inc Shaheed Harminder Singh, Bhai Manjit Singh, Harminder Singh Gill (eventual traitor to the panth), Rajinder Singh Mehta, Amarjit Singh Chawla amongst others. The men were members of AISSF, but fought more from an ideological perspective than the actual warfare which is where most Sikhs were concentrated. Because these men were in jails for years in india, they didn't get the opportunity to advance their cause as much as they wanted to. The motivation was there, but circumstances were against them.

The killing of Shaheed Harminder Singh Sandhu killed the ideological framework towards a separate Sikh state.

only india loyalists would believe indian intelliegence. since you have exposed yourself as an indian agent in a previous thread, I would request other members to remember the case of Shaheed Harminder Singh Sandhu. One of the best, most intelligent, promising Sikhs during Khalistan movement, only to die at the hands of those people falling for the same propaganda that this "man" would have you believe.

You seem to be a little mistaken on the nature of Pakistani Sikhs if you don't mind me saying. They are not the kind of people who would be susceptible to any kind of rebellion, especially in a country where they are in a minority amongst minority's. These Sikhs are mainly traders and businessmen, they prefer to keep a low profile and get on with their lives. Not to mention that the situation is very precarious for muslims, nevermind the minorities that live there. In the case of the Sikhs, it wouldn't take much effort from the Taliban types to extend the Afghan Sikh situation to Pakistan. What did you have in mind when you were talking of rebellion in terms of purpose? There is no chance of Pakistani Sikhs breaking away from Pakistan. They have a population of about 10 small villages or 2 big villages, in the whole country. The Sikhs there have issue with the Wakaf board who have been misappropriating Gurdwara estates, inc land and buildings and making a lot of money from it, more than the state authorities. It's good to see the Sikhs there demanding that the Waqaf board lives up to its responsibilities

Do you think its feasible for a minority community like the Sikhs in Pakistan, who number only around 25,000 in a country of 180 million, to create any kind of insurrection? The issues concerning the Pakistani Sikhs is one that has been happening for a few years now, but has recently progressed out of the community to involve state apparatus. It's a dangerous development and I hope they sort it out sooner rather than later. We have enough problems in Pakistan as it is, without the Sikhs fighting one another.