chatanga

2 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

In our side there is no shortage of people who think that we lost Muslim majority areas in Punjab which cost us Kashmir.

 

We've been over this. kashmir was never "yours". By law of agreement it still isn't.

 

You are talking about land. I am talking bout a very special piece of land. Our religious places are no ordinary places. They have the same place in our hearts like Mecca for. see how aggrieved the Muslims are about the mosque in Jerusalem? Its exactly the same for Sikhs.

 

2 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

And More than 8 Muslim majority tehsils were given to India whereas not a single hindu/sikh majority tehsil was awarded to Pakistan.

 

Just because you were majority in those areas didnt give you the right to claim it all. Like I said Muslims were about 55%  but yet they were given 61% of the land mass. Why? You talk about 8 tehsils? Thats nothing. By right Sikhs/HIndus are looking at 20 Tehsils that should have come to Indian Panjab.

 

If your country had looked after our religiously historic shrines like they promised to, maybe we wouldnt have that bitterness in our hearts and minds, but the waqf board instead have trried to sell off gurdwara lands and such.

 

 

 

This "anonsengh" guest seems to be on of those sunny doad type guys. I think the Admins tneed to look at the things he is writing.

On 06/09/2017 at 2:41 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

That Bir (from 1698/1755 BK) has simple mistakes, like it saying: ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥. Why would a mistake like this be in a Bir from Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. I'm not gonna rule anything out, but this Bir should get some more Khoj done on it.

 

It is not a mistake. It's something different. it makes no difference whatsoever to the Bir and fully conforms with Sikh thought.

 

 

On 06/09/2017 at 2:41 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

 

The history of Sri Dasam Granth is hazy, we need to do more Khoj on it. If this bir was in access of Bhai Mani Singh, why was he looking around for the small Granths that make up Sri Dasam Granth?

 

Why are you telling more and more lies on this forum? Bhai Mani Singh never had the bir, or any access to it. The history of Dasam Granth is hazy to you? The history of Sikhi is hazy as well. So you going to reject it all?

On 04/06/2016 at 11:58 PM, AmandeepSinghBansel said:

 

 What can be done in the uk and in sangats across the world to install sri Dasam granth and Sarbloh Granth as seen in Takht Sri Hazoor sahib were the maryada of the tisarpanth seems to be alive and well aswell as shastar darshan.

 

Traditionally the parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth was done at the Takhts and chhounis/samprdai deras. No other Gurdwara that I know of had parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth that I have heard of so far ie Sri Nankana Sahib.

 

On 02/09/2017 at 4:20 PM, ms514 said:

 

Find evidence in history that shows that when the Gurgaddi was transferred, parkash of Dasam Granth Sahib was also done and coconut and 5 paise were placed in front of Dasam Granth Sahib and/or Sarbloh Granth Sahib (same ceremony that was conducted to transfer Guruship from 1st to 10th Patshahi).  That might do it in a convincing manner.

 

I don't think that history is available. You want evidence that Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth was present? Read on...

 

On 04/09/2017 at 2:40 PM, Guest AnonSengh said:

There is historical proof when Gurgaddi was transferred. In Bhatt Vahi, Bhatt Narbud Singh writes Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Gurgaddi to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

 

Where is this Vahi? The last person that I know of who claimed to see this Vahi was Giani Gian Singh and that was over 120 years. Where has it gone? Did one actually exist?

The first concrete mention of Guru Gobind Singh giving gurgaddi to Aad Granth was written by Bhai Koer Singh in Gurbilas in 1751. Even those eye-witness writers make no mention of Guru Sahib giving gurgaddi to Aad Granth. ie Kavi Senapti , Dhadi Nath Mal.

 

 

On 06/09/2017 at 1:47 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

We have actual factual evidence that Guru Gobind Singh Jee did Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Bhatt Narbud Singh).

 

Ok, let's see it.

 

On 06/09/2017 at 1:47 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

Sri Dasam Granth Parkash was only started in the mid-1800's, no earlier source writes that Sri Dasam Granth parkash was done. Another reason why I think this practice of doing Sri Dasam Granth parkash on the same Takht as Guru Jee is man made by us because we now have people doing Parkash of Sarabloh Granth too, this is nowhere written in History. Also, Sri Dasam Granth is not even a standard Granth. Sikhs from back in the day used to make their own Pothis of Dasam Baani that they called the Dasam Granth.

 

Ok so we have the FIRST written evidence of the parkash of both granth in 1800s. Does that mean that the practice was only started 1 or 5 days before? That is a very poor argument to state that parkash only started from the time somone witnessed it and wrote it down.

 

For this statement alone, you should be banned from this forum. Nothing personal, but if you are posting lies to confuse other Sikhs, then you have no place on a Sikh forum.

 

On 06/09/2017 at 1:47 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

 

 Another reason why I think this practice of doing Sri Dasam Granth parkash on the same Takht as Guru Jee is man made by us because we now have people doing Parkash of Sarabloh Granth too, this is nowhere written in History.

 

Written in history? Where has the vidhi for Amrit Sinchar been written in history? What are the 5 k's according to what has been written in history?

 

There are SO MANY things about Sihi that have not been written in history, but passed down through seena-baseena tradtions. You want to only beleive what is written down in history? That is a very slippery slope.

 

 

On 06/09/2017 at 3:56 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

It's in the photo:

The Date on the Bir is 1755BK, which is 1698, as we know, but look closely:

It says ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ, you can also see Vaheguru is missing a Sihari before the ਹ.

 

Makes no difference how these words are written. The meaning is absolutley clear.

On 06/09/2017 at 3:56 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

Also, there is some controversy if ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥ is the correct manglacharan, or ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥ is the correct one.

 

There is no controversy. Both are equally valid. It's like any Sikh saying Satguru Granth Sahib or Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

 

If you are creating posts like this, to me, it is very apparent where your thoughts are on this subject.

 

 

On 06/09/2017 at 1:47 AM, Guest AnonSengh said:

 

It was only until 1897, under Khem Singh Bedi's (Same Guy who Ran the Singh Sabha) Sodhak Committee standardized the Sri Dasam Granth that is being printed for over a century now.

 

It was only in  the 1940s when the SGPC standardized SGGS (from having many birs with lots of differences in them) to the one that is being printed for almost 70 years now. So what? Does that mean the SGGS should be given less respect?

 

On 07/09/2017 at 3:20 PM, ipledgeblue said:

 The same instrument which Akali Phoola Singh didn't allow in Harimandir sahib and said that it is "kanjaraa da gham"?

 

 

Akali Ji died in 1823, the harmonium came to Panjab in around 1880s.

 

On 13/09/2017 at 9:52 PM, akaltaksal said:

He turned out to be a better candidate than Rhode or Mohkam Singh. I won't say exactly why because I can't say anything with a concrete basis to provide for my statements but any old-Taksal defector from the 90s and Early 2000s would know. 

 

So basically it's all rumours? You want to spread and perpetuate rumours on a Sikh forum?

On 12/09/2017 at 8:41 AM, YOYO29 said:

Not Pakistani narrative as Pakistani narrative gives no credit to locals.All credit is given to pak army and tribal pathans.Whatever i wrote i took it from two sources Christopher Snedden's books on kashmir and  Alex von Tunzelmann's book Indian summer.Here is page from Indian summer.

 

Bro, that is TOTALLY Pakistani narrative. Pakistan always denies having any influence in Kashmir or Afghanistan, but we all know what the reality is.

 

On 12/09/2017 at 9:00 AM, YOYO29 said:

i watched that video on utube.I read somewher ,when a delegation of punjabi language activist wen to visit Nawaz Sharif when he was CM of Punjab and asked him to promote punjabi in punjab and also in punjab assebmly as punjabi is our mother tongue.But that dude said that "I'm Kashmiri not Punjabi" even though his family has been living in punjab since the last 3 generations.

 

There is a sizeable percentage of Kashmiris in Panjab. Its such a shame that these people had a vote to decide the reality of Panjab we see today. BTW didnt know they were Kashmiri. Had been told they claimed to be Arains.

 

On 12/09/2017 at 9:00 AM, YOYO29 said:

Situation of bengalis is different from punjabis. Bengalis have one common script which both hindu and bengali muslims use.Wheras we Punjabis don't have one.There used to be a script called landa which was neutral script but that is not used anywhere now.You have gurmukhi,we have persian script and hindus have Devanagari.Had there been a common script to which all punjabi ascribed regardless of religious difference situation might have been different. It's pity that punjabi is orphan language in a country where Punjabis are in majority wheras it is flourshing in countries where there are less than 2 percent punjabis live.

 

Yes true that Bengalis only had one script but that is because they were all centred on a very strong Bengali identity. Even during the times of the earlier Moghals Bengal was always acting on semi-independent lines. All 3 religions in Panjab had their own script but even that is not a mountain that couldn't be climbed.

 

 

On 12/09/2017 at 1:49 PM, YOYO29 said:

Partition was done on the basis of districts.If it had been done on tehsil basis then we had a very good claim on two muslim majority tehsil in firozpur ,Zira 65 % ,Ferozpur 55 %tehsils were majority muslims.Ajnala tehsil in Amritsar was also Muslim majority.And about Gurdas pur, most muslims in gurdaspur district lived in Batala where they were 55 percent of tehsil population.There were four tehsils of Gurdaspur out of which only Pathankot was Hindu majority rest were muslim majority.

Are you talking about just british punjab or whole punjab including princely states ?

 

Partition was done on primary basis of Districts and secondary of Tehsils.  Will try and pull up some figures on Gurdaspur.

I'm talking about British Panjab. The muslims were approx 55% (it ranges from 52% to 57% depending on who you ask) but 61% of the land was given to be in Pakistan.

 

You know what really aggrieves me. I mean REALLY aggrieves me to the point where I find it hard to even express my anger, is that there were at least 6 border villages where our religiously historic Gurdwaras are, inc Gurdwara Darbar Sahib. That place is so special to Sikhs, yet these border villages went to Pakistan even though they could have easily been awarded to India, on the basis that 55% of the population could not claim 61 % of the land.

 

And look at those Gurdwaras now. Our precious heritage has turned to dust and rubble in this Pakistan. Only Gurdwara Darbar Sahib is functioning now, and that only after it was rescued otherwise it's domes had also fallen in. The other Gurdwaras have turned to dust and ruin.

 

On 12/09/2017 at 6:43 PM, Premi5 said:

Can you tell us some titles, as I would like to get from local library or online please

 

Wil dig some out.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

I thought this was an open forum. Aren't non sikhs welcome here ?

 

Yes they are, and you are as well.

Thanks for putting up a concise post. Long paragraphs/esssays  are not really my thing on forums.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

I don't know how much business you've studied but Laissez-faire is an economic term and philosophy specifically referring to the belief that the less involved government/management is in economy and society at large, the better it is for the economy/society. The underlying belief being that self-regulation will guide people to the best possible actions. Being laissez-faire is caring about the consequences; one believes that not getting involved will result in the best possible outcome. 

It's really not the word you want.

 

It is can be applied to economics. It is an approach style. Do you get involved or not? do you have a laissez-faire approach to it?

 

As I've said many times, you seem to have this attitude towards the 2nd biggest body of Gurdwaras and Management in the Panth. It doesnt bother you what sarna and co have done for the last decade or so in Delhi gurdwaras.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

 

Nope, that doesn't bother me. You seem to be forming an opinion about my views without even reading my views. Instead of resorting to conjecture and speculation, just ask.

 

Why ask when I can read your words? It's not so much what you write but what you don't write.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

 

I did show appreciation (you may have overlooked it past my first paragraphs), but as the paltry victories they were. They are miniscule in comparison to the immense, dire, and severe issues of the Panth.

1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
   1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements, corruption of Sikh institutions
2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
   1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 
4. Disunity and polarization of Sikh thought and people 

It's really impossible to sufficiently critique my views (which I welcome and encourage) without reading and analyzing them. Let's end this merry chase here! 

 

 

Baba Harnam Singh cannot (IMO) do those things by himself or even with the Taksal. Those are objectives which can only be carried out with the greater majority of the Sikhs backing it. But the majority of Sikhs back badal and co.

 

Sant jarnail Singh couldnt put an end to point no 3, why do you think someone like Harnam Singh who is nowhere near the level of Sant Jarnail Singh in terms of leadership and charisma, could achieve those? Both at some time in their live had/have a close working relationship with Akali Dal. 

 

Now coming to point no 4, who is polarizing Sikh thought? its the missionaries. They are tearing down each and every thing in Sikhi. look at what steps darshan rogi has taken, and this guy used to speak at delhi gurdwaras a lot. So you can't throw this mud at harnam Singh, as he has done his very best to combat this. He and the taksal are doing their utmost to keep Sikh trhought from polarizing.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

well i can only speaks for west Punjab.Recently i have come across some pages on Facebook run  by Urdu speakers of Karachi.They have started a campaign on social media against the usage of Punjabi in tv talk shows.Even though these tv shows are are private channels and theses shows are produced in Punjab.They are so insecure that they can't tolerate a few Punjabi words in tv talk shows or funny programs even though now Punjabis are more than 110 millions (according to 2017 census) in Pakistan which is more than half population of punjab.I was to see the reponse of some punabis against this propganda by Urdu speakers.And this is a good start but i think it will be miracle when Punjabis in pak will take pride in speaking Punjabi without feeling embarrassed.

 

You need to take lessons from the Bengalis. They refused to give up their mother tongue for some hybrid manufactured language. they have my respect for that more than the Muslims who live in Panjab.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Good to know.I hope they are successful in their mission.I'm waiting for the day when Punjabi will be revived in punjab and our CM will address the punjab assembly in Punjabi. But I don't know if i would be alive to see that day lol

 

I don't know about the CM of Panjab. I remember during a Kabaddi match in indian Panjab, the CM Shahbaz Sharif was invited to say a few words. He couldnt even put 2 Panjabi words together before he started talking in Urdu. Its a shame no-one turned the mic off so we had to listen to that.

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

As does every Pakistani because Jammu and Kashmir was 77 % Muslim majority state.

 

Of course it was only natural that the ML wanted Kashmir to be part of Pakistan because of its demographics. The difference was that the popluation counted for nothing. It was a princely state which that only the King had the right to make the decision. Plus the "K" of Kashmir was to be in the name of Pakistan. No K, would jhave meant the country could have ended up being called Paistan.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

As does every Pakistani

If only Kashmiris felt same as well.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Nehru already had plans for Kashmir
 

If you have read extensivley on this you will have seen that Nehru has resigned himslef to losing Kashmir to Pakistan. The activiites of the Pak govt proivided him with a lifeline to take Kashmir.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Nehru already had plans for Kashmir that is why he used his influence on Mountbatten to get Gurdaspur which was a Muslim majority district and India's only link with Kashmir.Even in notional division which was created to decide the future of Punjab,Gurdaspur was placed in Western block.
 

 

Gurdaspur had a muslim majority of 0.1%. The majority of the Muslims of Gurdaspur lived in the one of the tehsils that was awarded to Pakistan. Their numbers in Zaffarwal tehsil was a lot and the population in this tehsil was much greater than the others. That is why Gurdaspur had an extremely slight numerical advantage but when the situation was moved from a district level to e Tehsil, this decision was right.

 

Muslims in Panjab were 55% of the population yet were rewarded 61 of the land mass. That in itself was extremely unfair.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

And according to Christopher Snedden an Australian author of book "Kashmir-Untold Story" invasion of tribal people happened only due to reports of muslim massacre in Jammu.In Jammu, Muslim villages were burnt and thousands of Muslims have taken refuge near Sialkot. Mirpur Muslims have already rebelled against Maharaja.Christopher Snedden also wrote that it makes sense for India to blame everything on tribal afghans but pakistan has also acquiesced to this Indian narrative which states that trouble started with pathan invasion which is not true. Long before any pathan invasion,Muslims have rebelled against Hindu rule.It was an indigenous movement.
 

 

I have many books on Pakistan, and Kashmir, (many unread yet as I have that many), but if you think the tribaks invaded because they wanted to avenge muslim deaths in Jammu, you have been mislead. The initial rebellion in Poonch was against the King of Kashmir, because he was afraid of the Poonch regiments wanting to join Pakistan so he tried to have them disarmed. They rebelled and were holding their ground extremely well against the Kings other troops. It was decided to send in tribals to help them after the Dogra troops starting tgetting the upper hand.

These tribals  caused havoc wherever they went and after the hindu and sikhs were gone, they turned on the native population that was left. India had the chance to destory these tribals but were scared off of going to  close to Pakistans border as they didnt want to be seen as threatening Pakistan in the world arena.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

 Long before any pathan invasion,Muslims have rebelled against Hindu rule.

 

 

It was not a hindu vs muslims thing. The King himself was leaning towards Pakistan until the invasion happened. The King wanted Kahsmir  to remain independent but would have chosen Pakistan over India as the vast majority of Kashmirs trade was through Panjab (Sialkot/Gujrat) and it made economical sense to be in Pakistan than india.

 

And thats really quite ironic isnt it? The ML starting fighting for something that would have come to them any way, and the Kashmiris wanting an independent state today have their state ruled by two other states.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

And the 95 thousand sq km territory of Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir which we control today was not liberated by Pathans or Pakistan army.These ares were liberated by local people themselves.Pak army was involved at a later stage when Indian army started crushing mutiny in Kashmir.

 

Kashmir, was not liberated by locals. they didnt have a pot to piss in. It was Pak army hardware, partialy financed by Hyderabad (indian) state, that gave weapons, food and soldiers to lead the tribals.

I dontknow about Baltistan.

 

Gilgit on the other hand was secured by a british army officer with Pakistan troops.

 

I dont know why you want to peddle Pakistani state narratives here.

 

20 hours ago, Singhballer said:

Laissez-faire* refers to the attitude of letting others do as they choose;  it's probably not the word you're looking for. Perhaps using French may not best serve your purpose. 

 

Its also a attitude of not getting involved. It is exactly the word I wanted. Letting others do what they want without bothering about any consequences. You seem more bothered by the fact that Harnam Singh has done something about sarna and co, and also re-started parchar of Dasam Bani in dlehi gurdwaras. Not once have you appreciated this by Baba Harnam Singh. Instead you try and present it as a minor issue.

On 03/09/2017 at 6:34 PM, superkaur said:

Good point about letting native states becoming independent, however that was what happened a few of the states did not want to join india or pakistan. The most contentious of them being kashmir,  hyrderbad and sikkim where the Indian army was used to invade, dethrown the native leaders/maharajahs and force the states to join the Indian Union.

So the game plan of the British was to have a finger in many pies. Pakistan would become their main base and hub to conduct operations in south asia. India was going to be treated as a neutral or enemy state especially when the USSR soviet union had started to help Indian congress party govt in energy infrastructure and other development projects. And the native states that were outside the control of new delhi were going to be used as another convenient trading posts for British goods and commerce.

 

The Kashmiri King wished to remain independent but Jinah wanted it to be part of Pakistan. The newly formed pak govt sponsored tribal afghans to invade and secure Kahsmir for Pakistan. This invasion made the King, hari Singh sign Kashmir over to india in order to get security from pakistan.

 

If the tribals hadnt invaded Kashmir would have remained independent and a muslim majority country. In hindsight the pakistan move was one of grave folly. But unfortunately they haven't learnt the lesson.

 

On 03/09/2017 at 6:40 PM, superkaur said:

Its important to conclude and remember so that all those Sikhs who suck up to the racist british establishment and thinking they would have granted a separate Sikh nation had it not been for the foolishness of master tara singh (who was a fool) and the leadership do not realise what the British game plan was.

 

So many people blame Master Tara Singh whereas it was baldev Singh who sealed the fate of the Sikhs. The reality of the time was that Master Tara Singhs hand were tied. The Sikh community was at a disadvantage in more or less every sphere. There were no friends, only enemies, and most the energies of the Sikhs were spent fighting the creation of Pakistan. There was no plan B.

On 08/09/2017 at 5:39 PM, SoulSingh said:

Ok let's consider for a moment he is a great guy, and that he's playing badal as well; during badals rule, when sections of darbar sahib were stolen, no sorry under "repairs", why did the antarjami ? let it happen?  Also why did your baba side with a drug dealer, I don't see one instance in history where guru sahib sided with an oppressive regime to achieve "meaningful achievements"

 

What was stolen in Darbar Sahib?

Baba Harnam Singh is not Guru Sahib, and no-one compares him with Guru Sahib. The comparison I made was between Baba Harnam Sngh and the Dal Panth when they accepted a jagir and nawabgi from the Moghal rulers. It was done with a purpose in mind to acheive a goal that otherwise would not have been possible.

On 08/09/2017 at 6:15 PM, akaltaksal said:

Harnam Dhumma became more favorable in his eyes as the years went on.

 

Years went on? How many years was there, and what happened to make Baba Harnam Singh more favourable?

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time.

 

Lets bring another french word. Laissezfare . You would prefer this?

 

You come across as viewing the ejection and rejection of the sarna group - read darshan rogi, dhunda and co from Dlehi gurdwara management and parchar as  not being anything important, whereas I see it as vitally important for the Panth. How could this have been acheived unless the backing of badal dal was there?

 

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness.

 

Fair enough but someone who is ill would want to have their symtoms treated first. This is the short-term goal. Then the eradication of the illness would follow. I'm sure that any person who feels ill will feel this.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

 The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed.

 

The root problem was festering and remained unaddressed for about 10 years unless Baba Harnam Singh addressed it. Yes thats right, he addressed it. Many people (inc myself) were whinging about what sarna was doing in delhi gurdwaras but could do nothing about it.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth?

 

If it doesnt bring any unity in the Panth, it will serve equally not to let the panth fracture further. Did Harnam Singh do this to achieve unity in the Panth? I dont think so. Did he do it to end the missionary nonsense in dlehi gurdwaras? yes. So there's the answer.

 

Sant Jarnail Singh couldn't achieve unity in the panth, so it's really unfair that you would place this lofty goal on Harnam Singh's head.

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

 No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.

 

Your posts are too long to read. I havent been reading them, just taking the opening the paragraph.  You asked what has Harnam Singh achieved with badal. To some the results are very apparent. To some they aren't.

 

 

 

 

So you have no answer to your lie then. Better not to tell a lie in the first place.

On 14/08/2017 at 1:19 PM, chatanga said:

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

@Only five No answer?

On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. 

 

The difference is that Sarna would support the missioanry agenda and Badal would give Harnam Singh full liberty to pursue the Sikh agenda.

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. For me Harnam Singh has achieved something here that I and most Sikhs I know would never have thought would happen. darshan rogi and his missionary bum-chums had been in control for years and casued so much mischief. Thats not an issue to you. I'm glad that Baba Harnam Singh has done something about it.

 

On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests.

 

Exactly. Baba Harnam Singh and the taksal have been given autonomy to preach proper gurmat throughout Delhi Gurdwaras. This will help the Panth grow and its interests will be defended. You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead.

 

But I would also read Sikh history a little more as well if I were you. the Sikhs who took the Nawabgi and jagir had it rescinded after 4 years when the Moghals decided they were strong enough to start facing the Sikhs in battle. Then the Sikhs were left without a jagir and a defunct title.

 

Does that mean they were foolish to accept the Moghals offer and got used in the process?

On 17/08/2017 at 8:45 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

Sohan - from everything I know, he was a rat through and through and I would say a large percentage of the blame for the movement crashing was down to him. I think he was a Sarkari guy prior to joining the movement and he is the one who created a new Panthic Committee, which contributed to the deadly mistake of the election boycott of 1992.

 

Dr Sohan Singh gave up a very cushy job to lead the movement. He sacrificed a very good life for the movement. I would bnever call him a rat. Dr Sohan Singhs Panthic Comiittee had an image of being more brutal and less compromising than the others. Dr Sohan Singh was also the one who wanted to contest the electiosn but it was Bittu who threatened to kill him over it After that Dr Sohan Singh backed down. His Panthic Committee, although personally i would say he was against it, killed some 30 odd Sikh candidates. All of them very good men inc Baldev Singh Lang, a good friend of my relative.

 

They had already killed Harminder Singh Sandhu which in me eyes is unforgivable. It was personal, nothing else.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 0:18 AM, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Hey bro any info on my last reply to you? You've always got some good info. 

 

On 11/08/2017 at 8:48 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

PS if you could also answer Khoon ka Badla's question too.

Sorry to both I missed the questions. Can yo re-post them?

 

On 15/08/2017 at 8:51 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 I know there is a lot of speculation on Chauhan, Aulakh, Bains, the ISYF etc, anyone know more?

 

I wouldn't call these people as agents. they were genuine Khalistan ideologues.  ISYF was the top org in its time.

 

 

On 17/08/2017 at 7:51 PM, StarStriker said:

 

When u look back on partition, the role of cowardly panjabi hindus, shud never be underestimated. The pr!cks, if they had any meat n 2 veg in their trousers would of joined in n helped sikhs to claim more land from muslims. But they jus sat back like hijras n took shitther.

 

The Hindus of Panjab were more stronger in the east. There they forced all the muslims out from areas like gurgaon and such. They certainly did not avoid any violence there. In central Panjab the Sikhs were mainly holding their own. In western Panjab, both Hindus and Sikhs were getting decimated.

 

On 17/08/2017 at 7:51 PM, StarStriker said:

 

Whilst obviously we dont condone the disgraceful violence our grandparents/g.grandparents did on muslims, if u study partition, it feels like it had to be done. Cud u imagine amritsar ending up pakistan? It would have, since it was 51% majority muslim.

 

Speak for yourself. The only problem I have with the killing of Muslims on our side is that we didn't kill enough and made the grave mistake of letting any muslims live in East Panjab as Muslims. The minority of Sikhs that stayed in Panjab had to convert to Islam. Yet in East Panjab, our lot were still reluctant to let the Muslims go, adn then if they stayed , let them stay as Muslims. Today there are more Muslims in Jalandhar district than Sikhs in the whole of Pakistan and Afghanistan combined.

 

Some 95% of the Muslims voted for Muslim League and Pakistan. They were ultimately responsible for partition. Even bhiaris or gujarati muslims, all those who voted for muslim league were responsible for pakistan.

 

Amritsar from the 1941 consensus was 47% muslim.

 

On 18/08/2017 at 7:54 PM, superkaur said:

 Master tara singh was a hindu convert to Sikhism who was very friendly with fellow hindus nehru and gandhi and tried to inflame tensions against muslims before partition.

 

What? If it wasn't for Master Tara Singh and Gyani Kartar Singh, the Sikhs would have taken a hiding ALL over Panjab. Master and Gyani both knew that there would be a huge violent outbreak at partition and prepared for it.

 

Using Master Ji's hindu birth against him is a low act. read about his life and you will see.

 

Baba Ram Singh was credited with the first non co-operation movement against the British. I dont think it could be described a quit india movement. That slogan came in the 1920s-30s.

15 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Dhumma was planted as the jathedar of Taksal by Badal.

 

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

On 07/08/2017 at 1:49 PM, JS79 said:

Darshan singh has been ex communicated.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 4:29 PM, JS79 said:

Hanji. Most panthic people that i know of, have always opposed darshan singh to the hilt.

I wouldnt say 'accept' because that makes it sound like darshan singh is my friend lol i would say 'aware'.

 

On 10/08/2017 at 10:51 PM, JS79 said:

I opposed darshan singh very strongly.

 

"Singh?" No Sikh of the Guru calls darshan rogi by that name. You pretend that you don't support him, when its very apparent that you do.

 

 

On 10/08/2017 at 5:18 PM, Guest JKaur said:

I just wanted to point out whoever said the bullet hole was in the back of his head, if you knew a bit about forensics (even watching CSI you'd know) that a bullet has two wounds, entry and exit. The exit is always larger and bleeds more. It's because the bullet enters creating a hole size of the round but then due to tissue and bone gets squished on itself, this causes it drag tissue along with it towards the exit. More debris exiting than what went in initially and the force causes a larger exit wound as it explodes outward. So the bullet was not from behind. It was from in front and exit wound was at back of his head. (Experience in forensics) 

 

If you knew a little more about bullets hitting bodies then you would know that that the momentum of the bullet would take the object with it, instead of travelling towards the shooter.  If you knew even more about shootings you would know that not all shots have exit wounds, and not all exit wounds are bigger than the entry wounds. Nice try though.

 

However as the photo that we have seen only shows one wound, it is not been said whether this is the entrance or exit. And with shotguns the entry can easily be as big as the exit, if not bigger as the bullet fragments as its being shot (expereince in watching people being killed by shotguns.)

 

Do you want a link to some Jkaur? (to add to your experience?)

 

On 11/08/2017 at 11:47 AM, JS79 said:

 

But come on. Almost anybody is better than dhumma.

 

And everyone can  be better than "Professor Sarnjit Singh "Khalsa/dhapali" who tried to make his Guru out to be some kind of pervert.

On 12/08/2017 at 0:15 AM, InderjitS said:

These sum up the Dhumma or  as I like to call him - Gimli (but only in looks) from LOTR , he has helped bring DD Taksal to it's knees. 

 

 

Fair enough this photo makes him gimli. But thats a small price to pay if some turaiya avastha Sikhs want to call him gimli, for me. This is one of those results. This would not have been possible without "gimli", but i would rather have "gimli" and other taksalis doing katha than dhunda and jachak.

 

 

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. 

What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? 

I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma

1. The 1984 memorial complex being created
2. The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar
3. Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib
4. A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial

 

5. Helping get rid of Delhi's Malechh committee of Sarna and co, and restarting katha there including katha of Sri Dasme Granth Sahib.

 

The above accomplishments are a great acheivement if you were to consider what the situation would be like had this not been done.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. 

The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to):

1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
   1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements
2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
   1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 

 

All these things were in place when Sant Jarnail Singh and Baba Thakur Singh were alive. While more Sikhs were religious definitely it is wrong to put these regressions at Baba Harnam Singh personal responsibility.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC?

 

The original plan was to support Badal which meant that Badal had to commit 40 SGPC seats to Sant Samaj. These 40 Sant Samaj nominees won their seats but the congress party took the elections to court where there was a stay of power so the previous SGPC continued as was. The case took 6 years to reach a verdict. If these Sikhs had been able to take their place in SGPC there would most likely have been a great change.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area?

• Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty?
• Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs?
• Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal.

 

I agree with you here. Baba Harnam Singh could have and should have done more to move badals hand against the ravan sena. However the problem here was that Badal did not want to pursue these cases himself as it would have made more people aware of the crimes of the ravan sena.

With Kaunke's case, I beleive it was given to the CBI of india to investigate. Not sure, but Harnam Singh should definitely have kept this issue alive.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions"

• The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? 
• While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. 
  • The SGPC has been aware of all this but this is not a priority for them. I'm sure Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of this too. What has he done to mobilise SGPC resources towards the preservation of our history? I find it ironic that such a learned individual will do katha of and teach katha of Suraj Parkash or Panth Parkash, but that actual history he narrates he doesn't seem to be too bothered about protecting. 
    • Uncovered during the Badal's construction of the horrendous plaza outside Harmandir Sahib - https://www.sikh24.com/2013/12/02/sgpc-set-to-destroy-more-sikh-heritage/#.WYzdNvkrKHs
    • Mansion of Mangal Singh Ramgarhia near Harmandir Sahib demolished. SGPC knew and did nothing. http://news.ukpha.org/2013/09/mansion-of-sikh-general-mangal-singh-ramgharia-razed-to-the-ground/
    • Relics of the Guru's decaying - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/priceless-possessions-left-to-decay-in-neglected-forts-among-them-relics-of-guru-gobind-singh/
    • Relics of Guru Arjan Dev Ji decaying going to waste - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/as-bilgas-treasure-decays-villagers-seek-outside-help/

 

It is unfair to blame Harnam Singh for these. He had a plan to chnage the SGPC but it was foiled. PLus this was always there when Sant jarnail Singh was there, but no-one blamed him for corruption even though at times he was close to Akali Dal leadership because of the morcha.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/

 

The Sant Samaj originally came together for the SGPC elections which unfotunately they were unable to see through to the end. After this various leaders as such who really had no desire to involve themsleves in any politics left.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. 

 

Those warm relations were there for a purpose. As i have said many times here, in the life and death struggles of the Dal Panth, even they made political/military alliances with the moghals. I wouldn't criticize those Sikhs because they beleived they were acting in the interests of the Panth by siding with an enemy that had committed pogroms against them many times and killed thousands and thousands of Sikhs.