Only five

Just going to ignore this. It's not Gurmat. And it has been explained. Next step is accepting. Kaurs have the same access to Guru Sahib and same right of Naam japna, vand chakhna and kirat karna. What Muslim do, did is irrevelant to what we are speaking here because it is not about religious equality, which includes gender equality. What other religions do does not define or change Sikhi practices. Sikhi stands on it's own. Why gays are not to be married before Guru Sahib is because it is not Gurmat. People can do as they wish with their lives, but don't drag Sikhi down to personal logics. I can so easily argue against your point and show how ilogical your point on homosexuality is. But i don't use personal 'logic' or general 'logic' To follow Gurmat is really important. What is so called logical is not always Gurmat. I hope that clears the logical arguement up. See you don't have a problem with woman walking infront in Anand Karaj because your not thinking in terms of Gurmat, but personal/general logic. Guru Sahib made it Gurmat that the man walks infront for the complete four Laava and the lar is handed to the woman from the groom by the brides father. We can't understand everything Guru Sahib did, but if we want to be his Sikh then the first thing we must have is faith in Guru Sahib. Faith is the most important thing. Remember when Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji's sons would call him crazy and old for telling them do illogical task and they wouldn't do them, but one Sikh never refused Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji. Bhai Lehna ji would always do the task. He didn't use personal/general logic he would get up and follow the Gurmat Guru Nanak Dev ji told him to pracitce. This is a Sikh of the Guru. Something I forgot to add. Your religious equality arguement does not pass the test of Truth in the Anand Karaj. Only something that agrees with all of Sikhi's practices is accepted. Here is Sant ji's video again speaking on this topic

Sounds like to me something foolish to say. Many people speak of this, but have not given a reason other than being cleansed that I have heard of.

Present the whole shabads and tell us on which ang sung it is on. Presenting tuks is not the correct way. Bahi Gurdas ji's vaar are much important here. But stick to presenting Gurbani in the correct form first and then we can discuss.

There can be a political agenda here so don't be so quick to agree with the picture. People have become really cunning so keep your guard up.

What's the point for Mata Sahib Kaur ji offering her head? She was Guru Gobind Singh ji's wife, it would have been too obvious.. i don't think Mata Sahib Kaur ji, Mother of Khalsa, would have hesitated half a second to give her head if it had been expected from her. But Guru Sahib wanted Sikhs from the public to stand up. Let me just agree with you for a second. let's say it was obvious in 1699, but what about afterwards. Amrit was given to Sikhs and why didn't Guru Sahib put Mata Sahib Kaur in the Punj? Why didn't Baba Deep Singh ji Khalsa, put a woman in the Punj Pyare. Gursikhs followed Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji and did not change Gurmat. Gursikhs have more gyan than us. The whole world can disagree with Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa, but that won't change anything. Try to make sense out of the religious equality arguement you guys present. Apply it to other practices in Sikhi and see if it works. If your guys theory is correct then it should be correct in all practices, which includes the Anand Karaj. That is what Truth represents, where it holds water in every test you put it too. Sant ji, just didn't bring that example up for no reason about Anand Karaj. It is very much related here. Try to see the connection. This equality bit,LOL. Bhenji all I can say here is what I told sherlsurj and try to keep in mind to the Male Singh was given and to the Female Kaur was given.

Because that's what took place. I agree with you here 110%. They were/are Sikhs. But a Sikh can be male or female. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji showed us this by giving the name Singh to the male and Kaur to the female. Guru Sahib himself distinguished between male and female. Try to look deeper into this topic. Looking at it from the surface and coming to a decisions won't help. See when you add they were brown, from this caste, this weight or anything else then it's called follow the caste system and discrimination, which Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji abolished in Sikhi. When I say they were male this is not discrimination because Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji distinguished the two genders(Singh and Kaur). Guru Sahib said I need one head, this opportunity was open to both genders, but it's only males Sikhs stood up and gave their head for this service. This is not about men vs. women love for Guru Sahib. It's about being able to understand what took place in 1699. There is not one shabad that speaks against only males being in Punj. People will take one tuk and isolate it and say it does, but once you read the whole shabad it speaks on a higher level Woman are allowed doing everything else in Sikhi. Only this one service is for men and to understand why you gotta get your head out of the eqaulity bit because it is not inequality having only Singhs.

Tell us in history when Guru Gobind Singh Sahb ji put Mata Sahib Kuar in the Punj Pyare? Take time to read other post. Just so you know, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji distinguished between male and female. Did he distinguish between height or weight or any other foolish thing you can think of. NO! Our Guru isn't scared to distinguish between man and woman, but his Sikhs are. Now are you follow Guru Sahib!!! Understand that five males gave their head for this service in the Panth. Women were given the equality right to give their head at the sametime. 1699 is one of the most important parts of Sikhi. it is not replicated, but decisions that were made that day are followed because it is Gurmat. If you want women in Punj Pyare then in Anand Karaj the Gurmat Guru Sahib started as to be changed to fit the 'western' mindset where woman walks infront for half the laava. Are you prepared to change Gurmat to Manmat.

This has been answered by others on this topic. There are ways where five Singh can be arranged. You don't have to worry about that nor does anyone else. AK-47 answered this question of yours best. Take a read.

Then why you posting if you haven't seen the video. You don't believe a word that is being said by anyone else. When you get off your 9 to 5 go home and watch it and then post all you like. It's pretty stupid of someone to keep posting and saying I don't know......can someone tell me.......I don't trust........

Thank you Bhenji. Balait da Sher please listen to the pothi. Here is a direct link to listen to it, http://www.gursevak.com/questionanswer.html Singh like I said before please think it through. Don't use your intellect, but your soul and Guru Sahib as your guide. I was in the same posiiton thinking women are allowed, maybe someone can dig up the post here by me. I was putting the same arguement forward, but became aware what was being said and how twisted and backwards it was. Please for the sake of others, if you don't understand let Gurmat go unaltered. I read your recent post and I see more ignorance. Not saying I know all, but have spent much time looking into it. Saying this with most sincerity. Will respond to your post later when I get time Chadikala

exactlyyyyyyyyy what i am saying. We cannot understand Gurmat fully so how can you say that sikh women cannot be part of panj? Where as we can assume guru ji would have no problem allowing women to be in panj if they had come forward then or if they came forward now. you certainly may not ever add that i called guru ji a hypocrite. I said, it is guru's mat so they are the only one who can either be, for it or against it. Since Guru ji never explicitly stated that women cannot be in panj, we have to look at sikh principals of love and comppasion and equality to try to understand if Guru ji would have allowed women to be panj. First of all, I am taking part in this discussion like i have done thousands of time before on the forum as a member and not as an admin. As far as Singh vs Kaur is concerned i have already said that this is not about gender equality but religious equality. No offense intended, but I should be the admin here. Your statements are so funny, seriously man i tried being serious for awhile, but now all I can do so laugh. So before I get myself kicked off this forum of making fun of an admin and proving my point at the same time i will give you a day to think your comments through. Seriously, brother think about what you stated to me and think deep. This equality stuf is not working in your way. Singh and Kaur are very much about religious equality. Same goes for Anand Karaj(Homosexuality, Lar). If you are really wanting to go for religious eqaulity then realize your statement and what comes with it. Gurmat is understood. So think Long and hard and maybe I won't have to write another post here, you can figure the mistakes out yourself and clarify them for everyone. Thanks for the laughs And Chardikala

And Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave males a different name and female different name. Why is that? Like you state to Akal Purkh we are all female is Guru Sahib going against Akal Purkh, well that's what you are impling with your above statement. Guru Sahib wrote in the context we are all female of Akal Purkh, but that doesn't make us all female, hence Singh given to male. Guru Sahib also wrote that we are all his servants. So should we start begging in the streets. Keep things in context. Plus the soul has no gender. Again stick to Gurmat and your able to see why otherwise. Be the man of your word and announce now that two males are able to get married by the Anand Karaj.

In one sentence I am being told to follow Guru Sahib and in the next I am being told Guru Sahib can't do something. What bigger ego can an indivdiual have that says Guru Sahib can't do something and who said it is a miracle. And when did Guru Sahib show anything. It is all done beyond a tent. And how do you explain Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji sitting on a hot plate and hot sand poured over him. I don't want to label you, but you sound like a group, jatha that is well know for the way you write. You try to understand Guru Sahib through the limited mind. Talk about not thinking out of the box. Also you are playing God here by saying what is his command. Guru Sahib were not normal humans. You can't understand the event because your not and the state of Guru Sahib and neither am I, but I accept the facts of history, where you lie, yes lie and change it. will comment later on the link. Also your going off topic so start a new topic here. The link is broken.

So if you can't understand Gurmat then how do you know women are allowed or not allowed in the Punj Pyare. Just below you base your conclusion on knowing Gurmat. You can't say with one tongue we don't know Gurmat and then with the same tongue say I do know Gurmat because it suits your mindset. See here your claiming to know Gurmat. So which is it you don't know or know? Exactly it was one time. But the call was repeated five times and not one women stood up. We don't say anything just following Gurmat, which some have a tough time accepting. That was the moment given to both genders and we can't change the facts. Also you ignore the facts that Singh is given to man and Kaur is given to the women. By changing it you are standing up as and claiming to be Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. Give me the attributes that separate the two. Go back to the Mool Mantar. Does this not come in Gurbani, the Lord himself to the fifth form. Have fun trying to separate the True Guru and The Lord. Being clever here, are we!!!!!LOL Does it matter what age a male is, he's still male. The same rights is given. And you can't ignore the fact of 1699. What are women not given by the True Guru. I know giving birth is a wonderful thing that's why I am complaining why male wasn't given the same right. Giving birth is very much apart of Sikhi and yet males cannot perform this wonderful act. Where is the eqaulity here. Now do you get it. Guru Sahib wouldn't have gone against his mat!!! Tell me one time Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has gone against his mat. Look all you like, you won't find it and it shows in the above you are claiming to know Gurmat now, but when it suits you then you say I don't know. And nice on playing Guru Sahib here. Can I add you did a terrible job and called Guru Sahib an hypocrite. I have already answered this so again. I am going to copy and paste. This is at the heart of the debate and you are trying everything to ignore it. Then this should be addressed by the Panth, but not used against the Khalsa to get your thinking approved. If this is a wrong doing then as an admin you have more authority than me and use this authority to speak with the appropriate authority. I addressed all your comments, but your unable to address the point of Singh given to man and Kaur given to woman. Why is that? If your not able to address this one simple point then maybe someone else can. Again, avoiding the point that abolishes your above statement. Singh given to the man and Kaur given to the woman. Guru Sahib distinguished from man and woman here then why are you scared to admit and accept Guru Sahib decision. by religious equality do you mean the equality to carry out every religious aspect of sikhi out in physical form? cos you know how many women there was in Dal Panth dont you? Guru Ji gave amrit in 1699. he did joti jot in 1708. during this 9 years did Guru Ji do any more sanchars? yes. how many of them involved women? If Guru ji wanted to have bibian in 5 pyare he had 9 years to establish this, but the fact is that even during Guru ji times, only men did amrit sewa. This was the way Guru Ji must have wanted it, or otherwise Guru Ji would have said so, dontcha think? Or did Guru Ji leave Sikhi incomplete? For Sikhs who think they know it all to chat drivel 300 years later? like how some people say for 2 laavs, the man must follow the woman. Make your minds up people. Either follow Guru's way or your own. I forgot about that point Sant ji made aswell. When the Anand Karaj take place why is the male in front for the full four laava. Guru ji would have put women infront for the first two or last two or alternate. But NO Guru Sahib put the male infront. ISn't this religious ineqaulity. Where the male gets to lead and not the female. And why is the lar handed to female and not the other way around. Again by the admins thinking, Balait da Sher ji, this is religious inequality and the Guru did it. So let's stick to Gurmat or the Gurmat we love so much will be dissolved by the Manmukhs. Thanks for bring that to my attention Singh. Hey we agree on one thing here. OOO and a concept that bites the people that say it's alright for women to be in Punj Pyare back. Say that the soul has no gender, which is true, but then you guys should be all for women being infront for Anand Karaj and females marrying females and males marrying males. But yet some of these are against Male marrying a Male. Again if you want to fight against Gurmat then put everything on the table and we can discuss. You want one than the others are handed to you whether you like it or not.

Can I ask why we Sikhs sit back and take this abuse from low lifes like this. It's clear they won't ever stop slandering Guru Sahib. We know about their antics. Reminds me of a speech given by Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa, where he says eliminate the one who slanders Guru Sahib. Has the Khalsa Panth become just used to the abuse and gone spiritually numb. How many chance are we going to give to these individuals? Is sincerity in there thoughts and speach. Just some questions that need to be answered honestly by all of us.

Can you define Sikh for us and then we can apply it to the actions of individuals including me. If you don't accept Guru Sahib Bani, which means you reject Guru Sahib. If a person rejects Guru Sahib then it's clear he/she is not Sikh of the Guru. They can be in the identity of Khalsa, but that doesn't make a person a Sikh, but is apart of it. Let's stop demeaning the name of Sikhs because we like to please the public.

If it's about religious equality then you should have no problem accepting the Punj Pyare are all men. The religious equality was given to men and women when Guru Sahib said I need one head. I wish one women would have stood up and given her head, but it's not the case and we are changing Gurmat by adding a women in the Punj Pyare. If it's about religious eqality then don't forget the fact Guru Sahib took the form as man not once but TEN times. I could just hear the excuses coming now. BUT BUT, then society wouldn't accept Women as leader. If that's the best you got then Guru Nanak Dev ji would never have challenged and detroyed the caste system. Guru Nanak Dev ji would never have slepted with his feet toward the Kaaba. Look at history on how it took place not on fairy tales. If it's about religious equality then also don't forget only women can give birth. Where is the equality here. You might say it's not religious, but Sikhi is a way of life. Everything is considered and nothing is left out. Is anyone here prepared to say that Guru Sahib would go against Gurmat to satisfiy somes minds. And the above answers the so called religous rights. Here I already answered this so just going to copy and paste. Guru Nanak Dev ji came and said the caste system is no longer. Sikh were well aware of this already. Hence Langar was started where every man and women sat at an equal level regardless of caste. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji completed the message. So when the Punj Pyare stood up they didn't have a caste. They surely had a gender and even Guru Sahib distingished between gender because he gave Singh to the man and Kaur to the woman. Is it apart of the Amrit Sanskar to kill a Muslim and Brhmans. You are speak about to isolated events and then trying to compare them. You took and apple and said look guys it's an orange and then took an orange said look guys it's a apple. There is no punishment being handed here. It would have been great that a woman stood up and gave her head, but that didn't happen.

The fact is Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji gave the Punj Kakkar. The Khalsa carry's this on. Ignorant response. Kirpan is more just a conveintant self-defense kirpan. If this is true then there was no need to ask for 5 heads. There is eye witness account on what took place and your made up theory doesn't hold here. Ever thought of they were provided. Your Navab Kapoor Singh story has to be confirmed with facts, not theory's like your 1699 story. And taking Amrit from the Punj Pyare makes you an Amritdhari. Reaching the higher spiritual level means become Gurmukh or Khalsa.

Then this should be addressed by the Panth, but not used against the Khalsa to get your thinking approved. Guru Nanak Dev ji came and said the caste system is no longer. Sikh were well aware of this already. Hence Langar was started where every man and women sat at an equal level regardless of caste. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji completed the message. So when the Punj Pyare stood up they didn't have a caste. They surely had a gender and even Guru Sahib distingished between gender because he gave Singh to the man and Kaur to the woman. Yes it was open to all and only men stood up. Your forgetting Singh and Kaur. Now our past lives don't matter. Gursikh stays in the present and doesn't worry about his future or past. He doesn't have to care for it because Guru Sahib is taking care of him/her. There is no discrimination against women in this aspect. Gursikhs see what took place and recongize the tradition and uphold the tradition.

Who in this forum or in the next forum can stand for Guru-Panth. Such a high name is only for Gursikhs. Not your average alcoholic or average person who wakes up twice a week in Amrit Vela or every day in Amrit Vela, but ripps through the Punj Bani and then hits the sack again. Why demean the status of Guru-Panth to get your way. The same rehit tells a person to read Anand Sahib with first five stanza and last 5 stanza. Who is to say that is enough when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji told his Sikhs to read Anand Sahib completely. Is the rest of the stanza in Anand Sahib not important. Should we just not even look at them.

What does that have to do with anything. Your confusing fairness with sameness. Who said it was a miracle. When Guru Sahib asked for five heads, he didn't ask for 2.5 men and 2.5 women. IT was open to the sangat to give their head and only men stood up and gave their head for the Punj Pyare. If a women had stood up then yes one women would be apart of the Punj Pyare. Does anyone really know what took place behind the tent. No the Punj Pyare knew and Guru Sahib himself. All the sangat knew was something was cut and blood came out and hit the tent and then you had Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji come out with blood on his sword. And ask for another head and it was repeated three more times and no women stood up. The ones that claim he cut another animal back their to make a show out of the Punj Pyare have not read Gurbani at all. A person that has read Gurbani would never say such foolish thing about his Guru. Guru Sahib is not a deciever and would not go against his own Bani by saying one thing and doing another. When he said I need five heads he got five heads and that blood was very much from those five heads. Again if people just take the time to read Gurbani they wouldn't be making stupid remarks.

Well said, I know it's old, but it's one post that you can't ignore. Here is something that came to mind while reading about this topic. If gender doesn't matter when selecting Punj Pyare then why is Singh given to the man and Kaur given to women. If gender doesn't matter once your Amritdhari then Singh and kaur becomes irrevelant and Guru Sahib should have given only one name two both genders. Why did Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji distinguish between man and women when giving last names. Singh meaning loin and Kaur meaning princess. The soul has no gender and yet Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, still distinguished between man and women!!!

Now this is weird. Sikhs are not suppose to eat meat. What is permitted is Jhatka. If your favorite fast food place isn't performing jhatka and your eat meat then your not adering to the Akal Takht Hukam and possibly to the Punj Pyare.

Not that I can recall. usually its manmat remarks coming from you. And other times it's just comment to piss others off. Every action doesn't just end. It's got consequences, which is called Karma. You have real in quotations marks, why is that. Whether you are or not is not for me to judge, but your words speak loud and clear. You know where you sit, so why not make the effort to become a Gursikh. The cocky and foolish attitude isn't going to get you no where. That's good your honest with yourself, but doesn't mean your living life correctly. Admiting and accepting is the just the first step. Then working toward the change is the hard part, which some see as too hard and then become a arrogant and childish, which come easier to them. Your choice, but don't expect others to sit back and let you run your mouth. Just like you got jokes, I got jokes and you saw my jokes when me and Papi were just having some fun.