Only five

Here listen to this shabad, just maybe the ones with anger will get some peace.

Guruji took the thaali used for Aarti from out hands and showed us the real Aarti and called it Aarta, and we are grabbing the thaali back again! One can attribute many reasons why we do not clap and dance but fact of the matter it this is not Sikh maryada and so we do not do this. Guruji told us to keep kess and I've heard so many theories. Why do we need theories ... what are we trying to prove..... our Guru has ordered us to keep Kess and that is all that matters. Guruji's Hukam is unquestionable. Don't you feel that Aarta too is a Hukam from Guru Nanak Sahib Ji? The entire 'kaaynaat' is doing HIS Aarta, you do not need temporary items to do HIS Aarta. Why should we negate Guru Nanak Sahib ji's Aarta by using the thaali? Guru Rakha Guru Sahib explains everything to us. And it is not fair to present the tuk, which you did, because first you have not showed Gurbani which says Aarti with devotion is a ritual. Guru Sahib teaches us, he is not a dictatorship, pushing rules and fines on us. Guru Sahib tells us then explains. Tell us in which shabad Guru Sahib took the thaali from us. This is the fourth time I am asking you to present a shabad that says doing aarti of sargun saroop with devotion is a ritual. The Maryada laid down by Guru Sahib has reason behind it. Everything he tells us has a reason to it. And yet you have not produced one from Gurbani to say what you claim. If you believe what I said about dancing and clapping is a theory then next time you listen to kirtan start dancing and at the same time know exactly what is being said with love and devotion for the shabad. Try it and see what is controling you. The mind or the Kirtan. Then do the same start dancing with just Japji Sahib on and see what is in control, the foolish mind or that love and devotion. No one is questioning Guru Sahib hukam, but finding the reason behind the Hukam is not a crime, but seen as progress. You speak of negate Guru Nanak Dev ji's truth, but have not present one shabad that says doing aarti of sargun saroop with devotion is a ritual. Conclusion with no evidence is just an opinion.

Okay, now show me the backing of the Maryada that using Gurbani to say Aarti with devotion is a ritual. Third time I am asking this same question. Maryada also comes from Gurbani. And I would rethink that clapping bit. Clapping distracts others from listening to the kirtan. When Aarti is done. Gurbani is read. Now tell me Vikramjit Singh does Gurbani help control the mind or take it out of control. Is Gurbani to calm the mind or to drive a person into dancing and clapping. We Singhs read Gurbani everyday and yet don't know that a person is calmed and has control over himself, when reading Gurbani or listen or doing kirtan!!!! Is anyone actually contemplating over the shabad or just reading ritually. OOOhhh it's done out of the way, lets go follow the mind. Kirtan does not make one dance or clap because Gurbani is read. Gurbani helps a person control the mind. An action of jumping for joy when your happy and crying when your feeling sad is an emotional outburst where you are controlled by worldly events. Gurbani once read with full concentration helps to balance these emotions. Once balanced happiness and sadness are seen one and the same. Dancing is an action of joy and no control over the emotions. Gurbani helps to control this so it would be really foolish to say Gurbani can promote it. The mind is what makes a person dance; the manmat is what makes you dance and clap.

Vikramjit Singh, if you could provide that shabad here then we can see exactly what it is saying. The shabad by Bhagat Ravi Das ji says to do with devotion and it has merit. As I said before Singh, it is another way to express your love toward Guru Sahib. This is getting back to the sargun and Nirgun saroop. It would be best to read that part again. Virkamjit Singh, I asked before and I'll ask again. Is there a shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that says Aarti with devotion is a ritual. This is the center piece of this discussion.

Congrats to everyone. Justice was truly served.

I believe Jassa already answered this question. Here it is again. "There is concept of nirgun and sargun saroop of akal purkh ... nirgun sroop of akal purkh is akalpurkh himself ... guru nanak sahib said ek ong kar ( nirgun ) yet he placed his jyot in guru angad sahib ( sargun sroop ) ... why do you go and do matha teek in front of guru sahib why not in the opposite direction ... isnt guru granth sahib present every where ... the person who is very much clear about nirgun and sargun sroops of akal purkh understands the concept of aarti" When you are in presence of Guru Sahib, the sargun saroop is present. This requires the inner eye to be spiritual lit and awake. For some all they see is a book covered with cloth, nice decorations and a person reading from it. And if they see Aarti performed of Guru Sahib they are even more digusted. People judge on what they know. Vikramjit, explain why it can't. It pass the test with flying colors. With all due respect, I believe its Hindu phobia that creates this tension. Your going on something that isn't true fact and then coming to a conclusion. First prove that thaali in sargun saroop doesn't fit and then your conclusion can become true. If Gurbani specifically and so clearly says Aarti with devotion is a ritual, then it should be just as easy to present the shabad. Second time in a matter of a month this discussion is taking place on Aarti and not one Shabad is presented against it.

Very true, Aarti is no ritual, when done with devotion. Guru Sahib did say Aarti of stone idols is a ritual. Stone are dead, they can't offer no spiritual wisdom. You can do Aarti for this stone idol with devotion and still it won't be anything. There is a shabad, know I forget exactly which ang sung, but it says, what is the difference between your stone idol to any other stone. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is one of a kind. The wisdom attained from Guru Sahib is alive. Gurbani wakes up the everyday stone humans by just listen to Guru Sahib once. Showing your respect and love to Guru Sahib is no show, it's no ritual. If you call Guru Sahib just a book and dead, then think about exactly what state you are in yourself. Just because you can walk around and see you think you are alive. How many here celebrate their birthdays. How many love it when others praise them. Are these rituals. Your dead and yet you want to be praised and celebrated. You want others to light candles on your birthday cake and celebrate your stone image. Who is really doing Aarti of dead stones and is just a ritual?

If a Kirpan has some other meaning? Please explain. It sounds very much like the Brahmans and there thread (Jaanou). Why don't you search this site for the answer? You ask why Kirpan, but you made it clear already, that you won't accept any facts presented. Also you show no sincerity on finding out why. So here i'll have this back and forth debate with you. Tell us, what kind of evidence you want be to present that will make it clear for you that Kirpan is not like the Jaanuo, not outdated, and it mus be worn.

Singh, you tried to rip my article apart, but was unsuccesful. Do you wanna give it another shot.

Randip Singh Where are you? Your article got ripped apart and you have not responded yet. Take a close look at this writing. Why would jhatka be permitted when these guys that want to eat meat use bani that says the sugar cane also suffers when being crushed to justify meat eating. Vegetables are also be chopped into bits and they must be crying, and suffering all the time. So why can we put vegetables throw this pain, but not an animal. For an animal we have to strike it with one blow. This does not make sense because if animals and vegetables are the same on the food line then we should be able to cut an animal however we choose, just as we do with vegetables. And this whole Muslims cut the throat slowly and let it bleed to death is a big so what. Didn't the vegetable suffer when we cut it bit by bit. Didn't the juices of the vegetable come out slowly, cutting it bit by bit. Why would Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji allow Sikh to cruelly cut one food(vegetables) and the other he would say the Muslims are making the animal suffer, so now on Sikhs have to eat meat when the animal is struck with one blow and killed. Why would Guru Sahib have a double standard when vegetarian food and meat is on the same line according to the meat eaters. Second arguement these guys like to present is that Muslims were making a sacrifice of the meat to God and reading prayers to make it pure to eat. In this sense to start jhatka does not make sense still. because the food still can be made a sacrifice to God doesn't matter, which way you cut the animal. Can't the mantra be said two or three minutes before they strike the animal with one blow to purifify the food. The only thing Jhatka gets rid of is cruelty of the animal by one blow. But according to the meat eaters in Gurbani the sugar cane is crushed and feels pain. So why be the hypocrite and cruelly let a sugar cane suffer, but not let an animal suffer. Why the double standard. Then last one they bring up is, jhatka was started to abolish the Muslim way of killing animals. What does it abolish that an animal is pure. This is already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. That animal sacrifice is wrong, again already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. As you can see above it doesn't solve this problem and if you say it does then you get labeled as a hypocrite for letting a vegetable suffer on the frying pan. 1. The arguement that vegetables/grain/fruit is the same as meat does not hold. 2. The jhatka way does not solve anything. 3. It proves that meat eaters have a double standard for meat and vegetables, but with the same tongue say both are the same.

Here you go Singh, see for yourself. All of this is being said by the head meat eater LOL Randip Singh the one that says the article Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh solves everything-eat all the meat you want Sikhi isn't against it. But now hes proved wrong and I don't get one response from him yet. And in the near future I don't expect one from him. Post number 73 http://www.sikhphilo...er-flesh-8.html Here another time same is said. So please leave the excuses out. Post number 122 http://www.sikhphilo...r-flesh-13.html

Sure go the SPN, in the thread Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh, you will find Randip Singh repeatedly saying the sugar cane feels pain. I believe it's in the first 15 pages in that thread. If I have extra time, I'll post the link to the exact page.

Here's what Sant Maskeen Singh ji had to say on Charitropakhyan. http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=275:-giani-sant-singh-maskeen-on-the-significance-of-charitropakhyan&catid=40:katha&Itemid=77

Yes, Singh the metaphor is understood. What I was pointing out is that meat eaters also say the sugar cane is suffering. This shabad is both, it has a literal meaning and the metaphorical meaning. Since the meat eaters know where I am going with this, they will fight to death now to prove that the sugar cane doesn't suffer, going back on their first interpetation to be right. In other words they will flip, flop like a fish out of water, just to eat meat.

Singh, I real don't know why your presenting this tuk. because surely I know I did not present this shabad or tuk. If you want someones take on what this means, then the meat eaters are saying this shabad is talking about the Muslim way of killing the animals as a sacrifice to God and it will purify the animal. They say Bhagat Kabir ji is question and calling their ritual wrong. do you think that the sugarcane is actually crying out or is Guru Ji using these words for an antreev message? Well I took the intrepretation from your meat eating brothers. And they say the shabad is telling us the sugar cane feels pain. Does it actually cry out like an animal will while being crushed. NO

"raaj bina neh dharm chaley hain, dharm bina sab dalay malay hain" Where did you get this quote from, I know one thing it couldnt be out of the Guru Granth Sahibji as gurbani teaches us the complete opposite. Unless you have taken it out of context. Now the following is a complete contradiction and is from SGGSji. "Raj na chahon mukat na chahon man preet charan kamlarey" I think you should stop brainwashing our youth into practicing hatred against others and teach them about naam simran, which is reiterated again and again in SGGSji. In my view (and probably not yours) Sikhi isnt about dividing people its probably one of the very few religions that would and could unite the whole of humanity no matter what caste, creed and religion. But I think Superbell used the word 'Idiots' which fits in nicely to portray the kind of people that are using Sikhi to divide views and take people away from the spirtual teachings of SGGSji. Also where has Guruji predicted Khalistan? The assumption of Khalistan would divide people is completely wrong. Khalistion would strenghten the Sikhs and with the right men in power, which we can refer to as Khalsa will help where it is needed. Just look at the state of the Panth now. The Akal Takht is run by decievers; Badal. First things to do is get control of Akal Takit and then move forward to panthic problems. Like Dasam Granth; not a problem some just made it one. Caste should be clearly destroyed. If Khalsa gets a strong hold of Akal Takht, you might not even need Khalistan. For Khalistan to be established alot of work is needed to be done. This can take 50 or even 200 years. Khalistan is a long term goal and the short term goal should be take re-control of Akal Takht. Once the true Khalsas are in power there then the people will listen to Akal Takht and the support for behind Akal Takht will be enough to take on any challenge the Panth faces. More the chaos in the panth less likely the unity will happen. It's all on the Khalsa to put down there differences and unite for the Panth. So far everyones pride has got the best of them and, well I don't need to repeat the state of the panth-everyone reads the news.

Pure foolishness. You tell me your a big guy is not a threat, in what was said before by you, 'I would punch'. If it's not a threat then are you trying to pick me up with telling me your huge. Here is a fun fact for you. Things don't get handled by fist fights these days, especially in BC. Even if a lil scrap happens they surely don't end that way. Everyone thinks their hard and will pull a gun on you in a snatch. You look at him the wrong way or laugh in his direction. In that second you can have your brains blown out, being in the wrong place wrong time. The biggest guys, don't mean nothing. In fact the bigger you are the more likely you will get picked on by some lil punk. And the only reason why hes messin with you is cuz hes carrying. Here I'll do you one better ................Your one crazy guy Like i said before, I will show you exactly if your 'opinion' is valid. Just be the man you say you are and present your side. No muscle needed, well not the muscle you like showing off.

Only Five, you know what, you're a @@@@ (*every male has it, not sure in your case though) Just childish, nothing else to say, just childish behaviour.

Oye, what about the ones who are in the middle? I'm sure I can arrange both for you aaahhhhhh should I pm starscream to go fetch you a banana. Would that make you happy You wanna punch me. Look where that smart mouth of yours got you. Why so Serious Threats Patients is a virtue. I think you'll stop now with that smart mouth of yours, but you never know. Some are just born moorakhs.

Me and Papi are just having some fun now. But he did seem mad in his last response. And in all serisouness you believe I missed the point then are you willing to present Papi side and willing to hear how wrong he is. So far hes been to scared to explain himself which lead to this back and forth cheap shots.

Sorry, but I am not apart of your homemade videos. What you do in your private like is your business. You still didn't answer my question. Who leads the monkey or dog. No one gotta a swagger like you too.

lol, no man that would be your partner starscream. So who leads

Get over yourself! Good come back starscream. Do you mind if I take this one from you. It'll do wonders with 5 year olds. If you want to dance like a moorakh then go do it, just don't drag Sikhi down with it. Thanks for the acknowledgement I would love to post a video of me doing bhangra for everyone to see, but I really don't want death threats No worry's we see you already dancing in your lil display pic. Good Swing

Singh, give the ang sung on which the tuks are on and which shabad you are refering too above.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Well the way you conducted yourself on another thread, you should be begging and paying him to let you share the 'advice' you have.