geo

personally i dont have a problem to sit on the floor, i just dont wish to be forced to do so by other people. do you agree with chairs for the elderly or disabled?

i think the teachings say that there should be no human guru for sikhs. But other faiths are allowed to have as many gurus as they wish, it is not for us to tell them how to worship.

Just to confirm, do you understand the spiritual concept behind sitting on the floor, as equals? Because from your posts (quoting health and safety etc...), it seems that you don't. If that is the case, please say so. i understand the need for equality in all walks of life not only the langar hall. equality is equality, wether you are all on chairs or all on the floor. Just to confirm, do you understand the spiritual concept behind sitting on the floor, as equals? Because from your posts (quoting health and safety etc...), it seems that you don't. If that is the case, please say so. i was not interested in the health and safety issues or the health/digestion issues. the ONLY reason i talked about these 2 issues is because someone else used them to make their point. please check through the posts and agree with me on this point even if you agree with nothing else that i say. thanks

well if your opinion is based on no solid fact then its just garbage. also health and safety legislation says that all chairs and tables should be checked and disposed of every year if they arent up to scratch. if you have had them for 28 years then its illegal as well as stupid. what if you check they chairs and they are perfectly fine? are you saying that you checked my chairs and they were faulty? when did you do this? or is this just another example of your sweeping generalisations? i have regular checks on my premises by health and safety officers and never have they stated that my chairs are unsafe and i wouldnt provide unsafe chairs to my customers and staff.

what does it say with regard to treating people respectfully and living your life in a peacefull manner? where does it say that you should stir up trouble? no where, so you shouldnt stir up trouble. it doesnt literally say you shouldnt drive a car at 142mph but im guessing it sggs ji wouldnt approve! also check this out Subject: PEACEFUL RALLY IN LONDON Jai Gurdev, On the 13th or the 14th june there is a planned rally at the house of lords. Please check with your local Gudwara as they will be making arrangments to get as many Ravidassia's to atdend on this event. i hope to see alot of you there as this is a oppotunity to get our community notice. Shir Guru Ravidass Shakti......Amar Hai Jai Santan Di Ravi Mahay Kuthaman ...As if we haven't had enough troubles in recent weeks between Sikhs of all backgrounds & Ravidassias of all backgrounds... not exactly a well thought through plan because the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji doesnt teach us to stir-up trouble!! Im sorry if this sounds harsh but it needs to be said!! Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru... i agree with you hopefully everyone will come to their senses and stop fighting each other.

i dont go there for just langar. i didnt say that. i helped build the gurdwara and continue to provide assistance as do all the other sangat. i have been fortunate to be quite well off and i never take more than i put in, that is for the poor and needy and they are welcome to do so. we regularly have people from other faiths invited to join us and they really happy to visit us. we also visit them in their holy places and its great to share our views and differences. we held a meeting to decide if we should have chairs and tables or sit on the floor the decision was unanimous amongst the committee and the sangat - tables and chairs. we DO have space for anyone to sit on the floor if they wish to do so but ive never seen anyone do it.

your idea that the gurus could have invented anything, but chose not to, just so we could introduce those things at a later date after someone else invented them is the dumbest logic ever. i cant believe i even bothered discussing this topic with someone who came up with that as a point in his favour. also what historical source says they didnt have chairs? i have a sofa at home, can i have one in my gurudwara too? what about a ps3 in the langar hall for the kids? eh? no one forces you to sit on the floor. but if you want to sit on a chair stay at home. langar is not about your personal comfort, but you dont get what its about. you are a lazy fool and you have no idea of what sikhi is about. if you dont follow your religion, you are not practicing it, your just doing what makes you happy, which is usually not the right thing as the human mind is sometimes gluttonous, lethargic and selfish. geo is a classic example. i could stay at home or i could visit my local gurdwara langar and sit and eat langar there? is that ok with you? or would you like to dictate to us how we must do things?

BNP will nver win enough votes to get in power, if the labour / tory find out a person with the name of Singh has voted BNP, they will have to look at themselves. i wud never want BNP in and they never will its a just a protest vote and to shake the current goverment up. wow! you really are a bit mental

ummm, i thought tables and chairs had already been invented in the guru's time. so your saying the gurus couldnt invent toilet pans (wc's) like we have now? surely with all that power and intelligence this could have been achieved, they chose not to invent these things for those times. most people didnt have tables and chairs at home so to have them in the langar would have been seen as a "step" up. now that mostly everyone has tables and chairs at home we should use them at the langar. those who wish to sit on the floor should be free to do so. do you agree with tables and/or chairs for the disabled or elderly? its called an opinion. i am entitled to one right? or are only the high and mighty like yourself allowed to say things like that? go on explain the religous connotations of the divas in sikhi. how do you know that candles were used in every gurudwara before the light bulb? the gurus never said anything about lights, but they told everyone to sit on the floor. if you dont believe me, why are we told to sit on the floor by the directive from east punjab, but we have not received one on lights/toilets/fridges etc? what if they want to set up a business in the gurudwara? or eat meat and drink alcohol? or turn it into a strip club? if you want to call it a gurudwara then it belongs to all the sangat, not some comittee and their cronies. well has anyone agreed with you? the silence says it all. so those who sit down on the floor are backward according to you? and you look down on those who sit on the floor. some sikh of the gurus you are. you are a pure coconut. sod off to the church........oh wait they dont give you free food do they? its obvious you dont even understand the principles of langar or sewa. i do not think that those who sit on the floor are backward, i think those who force people to sit on the floor are backward. dont dictate your backward beliefs on to other people. i say that people shoud have the choice to practice religion they way they want.

title says it all really, whats your views?

you said: "also how do i know its not true?" the whole point is that you should not make statements that are not true. if you say you dont know, then dont say it! you said: "i meant there is no religous connotations with what light source/toilet etc you use. but there is with attitude in the langar hall." what about divas in the gurdwara? no religious connotations? who decided that lightbulbs should be used instead of candles anr whatever they used in those days? how do you know this is what the gurus wanted? do we have the right to have chairs in our gurdwara if the committtee and the sangat wish for their to be chairs in the langar hall? you said that you did not think anyone believes me, that is you speaking for other people in this forum! sitting on the floor is backward because sitting on chairs is forward. something that used to happen being replaced with something new and improved. sitting on chairs is better and more advanced than sitting on the floor. this is why every home has chairs in it. chairs should be used at every opportunity and sitting on floor should not be imposed on those that do not wish to.

take a chill pill

you said: "is there a difference between candles and light bulbs? no. is there a difference between hand written or printed books? no. is there a difference between a hole in the ground and a toilet? not quite." are you serious? there is no difference between candles and lightbulbs? of course there is. as with the other 2. you have to reach forward to pick up the food and this restricts the stomach. i dont know why you keep saying im obese or fat, im neither. im fit and good weight for my height. i play football and squash most weeks and my work also keeps my in good shape. why would you make false statements that you do not know to be true? is this another face of "your" version of sikhi? does anyone use toilets at your gurdwara? does your gurdwara have toilets? you say: "yeah, for some reason i dont think anyone believes you." you say: "ooooh so clever" im glad you agree, its the only true words you have spoken who are you to speak for others in this forum? let people speak their minds and dont dictate to them. if the panth is indeed in tatters then it is mostly because of narrow minded backward thinking people like you and your authoritarian brethren.

"why should we? like i said not all gurudwaras have fridges. why no carpets? they were there is some of the oldest gurudwaras. since when was langar about convenience? is it just a fast food place for you? there is nothing convenient about the things you mentioned. its just that there are no alternatives. but we can still sit on the floor. " of course there alternatives! candles? written books instead of printed books? there are alternatives to using toilets so hwy do you use them? you do everything that is convenient to you and then choose the easiest thing (sitting on hte floor) to enforce onto others. stop dictating to people and let them make their own choices. there is plenty of space for anyone to sit on the floor if they wish. sitting on the floor does reduce the room in the stomach i will use the health argument if other people use it in their arguments. you have no proof that sitting on the floor is better for health. why do you use toilets in your gurdwara? you are not more intelligent than me, it is simply another area in which you are mistaken. you are no true sikh, you are a hypocrite.

and the real evidence that is bad is...? i could easily say that as we are eating the blood from other parts of the body is diverted to the digestive system. sitting on a chair requires a fair amount of energy to be used to pump blood to the feet and back, energy and blood which would be better used for digestion. therefore for your health and metabolism it is better to sit on the floor. as we have no holes in the ground, we cant sell the toilets. also there are no fridges in the langar hall. i was told everything is brought in relatively fresh or stored in a larder. also why are you going on about selling? is this a money making scheme for you in your gurudwara? i said donate the chairs and tables. seriously, for a sikh you need to get your priorities and outlook straight. what about the sewa of giving out food and water? its much better if its done with people sitting on the floor. otherwise it just ends up looking like a wedding. well dont use the health argument then. you were going on about the 'optimum way'. the question is: are people allowed to sit in your langar hall? is there space to do so? for someone in the top 1% of the population your pretty bad at english. your sentence above implies those who use chairs and tables should not use toilet paper. what is so backward about sitting on the floor?white converts to sikhi dont have a problem. moneh dont have a problem. people of different sizes/castes/religions dont have a problem. should we embrace catering companies? so wouldnt it be better to use the money to help the poor rather than buy tables and chairs? or donate the tables and chairs to charities and hostels for the less fortunate? if you dont consider yourself higher than others, why do you act in that way? you can say what you want but you're judged on your actions. im not arrogant, there is space for people to sit on the floor if they wish but ive never seen anyone do this, people just use the chairs and tables. blood is not the requirement for disgestion at and just after the time of eating, this comes much later after food has been eaten. the main requirements are for the acids and enzymes to have enough room to do their job. the blood and muscles are required later in the digestion process and thats why its nice to have a walk after eating or lie down and have a sleep. i didnt mean that you should only sell, you could donate directly or you could sell and donate the money. not everything is about money with me. im entitled to use the health argument because those in favour of sitting on the floor used it in their justifications so i am entitled to use it to make my case. it is not better if the food is served on the floor, it is better if it is served on a table. in many gurdwaras i have seen, the food is not "served" in that way. what i have seen is that people collect their own tray and walk past the sevadars who have the food in large containers and they ladle it into your tray, someone at the end also puts a roti on you tray. some other sevadars bring extra roti to your table and you can accept if you wish. are you saying that you cant make a hole in the ground for the purposes of using it as a toilet? indoor or outdoor this must be possible but you choose not to for convenience! there are fridges in the kitchens of all of the gurdwaras i have seen, this is for convenience, why do they use them? if you say no tables & no chairs then you also have to say no lightbulbs, no carpets, no toilets,, no fridges, no gas cookers, no printed books, no electric heated or gas heated water, no mains water pipe ( the water should be carried from a well or lake ) my english is perfectly fine, i simply made a typing error. it was supposed to say "shouldn't" dont criticise my spelling or grammar until your's is better. you should not embrace catering companies, i never suggested this as a modern invention. it would require that the catering staff be paid but the work is supposed to be done for free as a service. i will ask again since you ignored it 3 times: do you agree that all gurdwaras should have tables/chairs for the disabled or elderly?

this isnt about what our gurus did. did i say it was? also i am not surprised you sit on a chair but dont use toilet paper. i hope you at least wash your hands before you start stuffing your face. also, how is sitting on a chair the optimum way? what is so backward about sitting on the floor?white converts to sikhi dont have a problem. moneh dont have a problem. people of different sizes/castes/religions dont have a problem. should we embrace dishwashers and catering companies? so wouldnt it be better to use the money to help the poor rather than buy tables and chairs? or donate the tables and chairs to charities and hostels for the less fortunate? if you dont consider yourself higher than others, why do you act in that way? you can say what you want but you're judged on your actions. do guests in your house cover their heads? why should what you do at home be reflected at the gurudwara? in what way do i act higher than others? i promote chairs and tables for everyone so everyone is equal. it is the optimum way because it does not restrict your stomach which is what happens when you sit of the floor, the stomach gets compressed and continues to get more compressed as your reach forward to pick up food and drink. donate the chairs or sell them if you wish to help the poor, will you also sell the carpets and toilet pans? will you also sell the fridges? you should not use dishwashers because it is part of the process that sevadars do as well as serving the food the sevadars wash the dishes. however if you use fridges, electric knife sharpeners, freezers, electric blenders, spice grinders then in that case using dishwashers could be justified in some ways. no one is saying that everything in the gurdwara should be the way it is at home, what i am saying is that most meals are eaten at home so if it is healthy enough to eat on a table and chairs at home then the health arguments should not be used for promoting the reason for sitting on the floor and eating. anyone who wishes to sit on the floor should not be stopped, im not stopping anyone from sitting on the floor so why are you stopping people sitting on chairs. you have not answered my questions: do you agree that every gurdwara should have some tables and chairs for the disabled and elderly? yes or no - your choice "also i am not surprised you sit on a chair but dont use toilet paper. i hope you at least wash your hands before you start stuffing your face." can you clarify that point, i dont get what you mean. fyi i wash and disinfect my hands always, my line of work ensures that i have to by law but it is also just good common sense so i pay very good attention to this.

and your proof of that is? you have no evidence that sitting on a chair is better than sitting on the floor. according to your reasoning we should get industrial dishwashers for cleaning all the langar utensils and catering staff from a company to provide the food. so wouldnt it be better to use the money to help the poor rather than buy tables and chairs? or donate the tables and chairs to charities and hostels for the less fortunate? it seems that people with your attitude have become like the pompous kings of our guru's time. also what about those in the developing world who sit on the floor, and dont have anything to eat? do you consider yourself higher than others? i dont consider myself higher or lower than anyone. what proof do you have that sitting on the floor is better for consumption of food? it is much cheaper to have tables and chairs now than it was in past times realatively speaking. in my opinion people should stop looking backwards and look forwards instead. by all means sit on the floor and eat in your gurdwara in you wish. if people in our local gurdwara wish to sit on chairs and eat on tables then please let us do so in peace i asked you first. i also never said that sitting on the floor is better for consumption of food. but you did say sitting on a chair is the 'optimum way'. you also said that we were told by our gurus to invent and embrace new technologies - well i would like proof of that too. also, what is so backward about sitting on the floor? white converts to sikhi dont have a problem. moneh dont have a problem. people of different sizes/castes/religions dont have a problem. so why do you? also why do you waste money on tables and chairs again and again (you have to replace them for health and safety reasons each year) ? also please answer my other points. i never said they told us, i said they would want us to. this is my opinion. you dont have to replace chairs for health and safetly reasons each year. wher did you get this from? ive had chairs in my premises for 28 years and their still perfectly safe. what points would you like answered? why waste money on carpets? why waste money on toilet pans, did the gurus use toilet pans or squat on the floor outside? if you should use chairs or tables then you shouldnt use toilet pans and toilet paper. do you agree that all gurdwaras should have some tables and chairs for the disabled or elderly?

it was not the only reason i gave. it is the most sensible way to eat the langar in my opinion AHA!! here is where youve shown your pinhead idiocy!! langar is there foreveryone. poor or rich, where everyone can sit together as EQUALS and eat together. even great emporers who came to visit Guru Ji had to sit on the floor alongside beggers. and Guru Ji also sat with them. by sitting on a chair in the langar sahib you are promoting the fact that you think you are above everyone else. you sit on the floor showning yourself to be low. if for thousands and thousands of years, yogis have taught us to sit on the floor (and this after learning and studying for many years), whhat kind of chittar are you to come along and say "o i think sitting on a chair would b better". for that reason do you promote banning chairs all together? yogis may well teach many things, who is to say that they are correct? have a quick look at this: http://relaxation-with-me.blogspot.com/200...-thanks-to.html it is not proven that sitting on the floor is good for health or posture. for thousands of years those same yogis taught people that the earth was flat, they were wrong then and could be wrong now.

also check this out: http://www.zafu.net/medtechsupport.html

it was not the only reason i gave. it is the most sensible way to eat the langar in my opinion AHA!! here is where youve shown your pinhead idiocy!! langar is there foreveryone. poor or rich, where everyone can sit together as EQUALS and eat together. even great emporers who came to visit Guru Ji had to sit on the floor alongside beggers. and Guru Ji also sat with them. by sitting on a chair in the langar sahib you are promoting the fact that you think you are above everyone else. you sit on the floor showning yourself to be low. if for thousands and thousands of years, yogis have taught us to sit on the floor (and this after learning and studying for many years), whhat kind of chittar are you to come along and say "o i think sitting on a chair would b better". for that reason do you promote banning chairs all together? yogis may well teach many things, who is to say that they are correct? have a quick look at this: http://relaxation-with-me.blogspot.com/200...-thanks-to.html it is not proven that sitting on the floor is good for health or posture.

and your proof of that is? you have no evidence that sitting on a chair is better than sitting on the floor. according to your reasoning we should get industrial dishwashers for cleaning all the langar utensils and catering staff from a company to provide the food. so wouldnt it be better to use the money to help the poor rather than buy tables and chairs? or donate the tables and chairs to charities and hostels for the less fortunate? it seems that people with your attitude have become like the pompous kings of our guru's time. also what about those in the developing world who sit on the floor, and dont have anything to eat? do you consider yourself higher than others? i dont consider myself higher or lower than anyone. what proof do you have that sitting on the floor is better for consumption of food? it is much cheaper to have tables and chairs now than it was in past times realatively speaking. in my opinion people should stop looking backwards and look forwards instead. by all means sit on the floor and eat in your gurdwara in you wish. if people in our local gurdwara wish to sit on chairs and eat on tables then please let us do so in peace

it is sensible because that is the optimum way to consume food in comfort. all of this stuff that you talk about is not looking at the big picture. the guru's would want us to progress and embrace modern technologies and indeed invent them. some people say that guru ji could have made lots of tables and chairs if he wanted, yes this is true. is it not also true that with all his powers and intelligence guru ji could have invented light bulbs, cars, speakers, microphones. i think yes, but it is something he chose not to do for that age and left it for other people to discover and use themselves. i say the same goes for mass produced cheap chairs and tables these days. it could also be said that perhaps guru ji thought the money and resources would be better spent on feeding the poor and spreading his message. people at home used to eat on the floor same as in the langar of those days, it was to force even the kings to sit on the floor which would have been a great gesture for them to have to do. we now all have chairs at home and work so this is not really an issue. of greater importance is the inequality in the caste system which so many so called "sikhs" have not abolished. it is not simple enough to do nothing, you must do something to abolish this

why can individuals not be free to make these choices? your post is all about interpretation, are others not free to interpret things differently? our lives are nothing like to guru lived. we still have wood burning stoves, why do we use gas and electric. you talk about extreme cold, didnt they have wood burning stoves in them days? do you think it was correct that people were killed over this matter?

it was not the only reason i gave. it is the most sensible way to eat the langar in my opinion