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Which Gurdwara are you talking about? yeah right im not falling for that one. they have tables and chairs again now so i dont want fundamentalists turning up and ruining it for the rest of us!

actually for me its the opposite. all of my younger life i went to gurdwara and there were tables and chairs and then a few years they were removed. that is the lunacy of the ruling body and that is what im against.

why have a carpet? did the gurus definitely have a carpet? its nothing to do with progress. it to do with common sense. chairs dont do any harm. cigarettes yes they harm, chairs dont. it is more comfortable to sit on a chair and eat from a table. also its got nothing to do with christians, im sure they havent always sat on chairs or benches. no one is copying anyone, there is an irrational fear that the sikh religion is under threat and we must do everything to resist change. you have to adapt or die ( this is a metaphor, not meant literally, im not saying anyone should physically die)

why do you resort to cheap insults everytime? can you not construct a sensible, coherant argument? mensa is not run by idiots or for idiots so i think your statement is flawed. perhaps you are too young to have a better grasp of how to deal properly with people in debates and discussions. you also state the no one here wants my advice, this may be true but did everyone appoint you as their spokesperson? what authority do you have to speak for the thousands of members on this forum. perhaps in the "non-forum" world somone from this forum has asked my advice? perhaps i have asked their advice? the fact is that we do not know. i do not claim to know everything, in fact i am always trying to learn something new. i dont think constructive debate can be had by hurling cheap insults at people.

i would take food from any kind hearted person with clean hands. king or homeless all are equall.

why should it have been done at all? this is a disgrace and i hope they recieve tough sentences for their crimes. they killed someone for having different beliefs and practices from themselves. this is precisely the reason so many sikhs were martyred because they didnt not want to change their religion to islam and now some sikhs are doing the same to other people! this is shocking and disgracefull. If they were killed for simply having their own beliefs and opposed Sikhi we as Sikhs shouldn't stop them, they have a right to believe what they want to. However if they use Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, the eternal Guru of the Sikhs within their practices and openly carry out things which oppose the teachings of Maharaj ji, they are showing disrespect for Maharaj ji, this is then a directed insult to Sikhi, be the outcome intentional or not, it is an insult. when the guru granth sahib is used by sikhs they believe it is their guru, their "11th" and final guru. this is a perfectly valid belief to have and sikhs should be free to worship in this way. when the guru granth sahib is used by non sikhs or a sikh sect and it is used in a different manner to the way sikhs use it then this should not offend sikhs. i will attempt to explain this in the following way: "air force one" is not "air force one" untill the president is on board. if he is not on board it is just a plane and any aircraft owned by the air force can become "air force one" if the president comes on board. the relevance here is that it is important to see the context in which the aircraft/book is used. also the british monarch never dies, this means that the country always has and king or queen. this is why they say the king is dead long live the queen or the queen is dead long live the king. the relevance here is that the position never dies even though the human has died. also look at what is important the office of president or the human who occupies it? the office of president is held in much higher regard even though the human who occupies it maybe an <banned word filter activated>. also if someone destroys one printed copy of the guru granth sahib, does that mean the guru has been destroyed? of course not, the guru is never destroyed. the book is just paper and ink and can be burned or shredded but the guru can never be destroyed. many billions of people use the christian bible and they use it in different ways, the christian bible is very important to christians but they should not go around killing everyone who uses it is a different way to themselves. if they did do this then it wont be long before the whole world is at war and billions of humans are dead. guru gobind singh took human life to protect himself and his followers and the innocent from tyranny and oppression. he didnt take life because muslim had different beliefs. the sikh religion is not threatened by these sects/deras/cults. let them do as they wish and sikhs do as they wish. as long as no one does violence we can all live together peacefully. everyone has a right to worship or not worship as they wish as long as the dont harm other people. many sikhs who support these killers in vienna say that their guru has been insulted or disrespected, i would like to ask them this: what did guru amar das do when datu kicked him and beat him, did he not act with humilty and humanity and kindness to show the attacker the error of his ways? this guru was disrespected but he responded in the sikh way, he did not use his powers to kill datu. sikhs can and should have dialogue with all other religions and non believers, it is through co-operation and understanding that we will have peace in the world. too many have died through religious extremism, it is time for peace and common sense.

i dont know what you mean? what is troubling about my personality? do you expect everyone on this forum to agree with everyone else? what is a fools paradise? i am no fool, im very intelligent and knowledgable. this is a widely held viewpoint by most who know me, i am constantly aksed for advice and help and i always try to help. i come across many item which require repair and i usually mend them most of the time. i was top of my class at school and close to the top at university classes. my intelligence has been measured by tests to be in the top 1% of the human population.

why should it have been done at all? this is a disgrace and i hope they recieve tough sentences for their crimes. they killed someone for having different beliefs and practices from themselves. this is precisely the reason so many sikhs were martyred because they didnt not want to change their religion to islam and now some sikhs are doing the same to other people! this is shocking and disgracefull.

1. if it is a private toliet meaning one person at a time, then it is just a toilet and not an exclusively ladies toilet even though someone may have put a sign on the door saying ladies. i would use this toilet if i knew i could lock it and if i would i would not cause inconvenience to ladies who were waiting. if i was not in a hurry then i would just wait. 2. if never gets hot enough anywhere to take a shirt off. a shirt would be light and thin especially in the summer when it is hot. i would take off a jacket or jumper or cardigan but not a tee-shirt or shirt. there would be no benefit to taking off the shirt, it is very light and thin. i may even remove socks and shoes. i have no shame in this. i would use a cloth to wet my face. 3. this point has nothing to do with god being offended or not. the park would be for quiet enjoyment and clean air. cars do not bring a benefit to the park users. also this would create access problems. in a park you do not have to stay on the walking trail you can go left or right and got to another walking trail, this would not be possible if there was "a safely divided driving lane in the park adjacent to each walking trail". you could not get through the division, cross the road and go through the second division safely or easily and if you could it be be a saftey issue. so i would not do this. i would also point out that i have some experience in park management and road and parking layout within a country park. 4. i would if it were safe to do so and not against the law i would do it. if it were an emergency and my passenger was in labour or dying i would do it no problem even if it is against the law. 5. again this is against the law so no i would not do that. also i know that children from incestious relationships have genetic problems and children between brother and sister would be most likely disabled. there is also no chance that we could not find someone better to marry than each other. even if that person were old/fat/ugly it would better to marry them than each other. everyone can find a partner this is not a problem in our world. anyone is more suitable than your brother or sister. also on this point can i ask is this issue on the same level as tables and chairs? incest is a very serious issue which could have massive implications for all life on earth (if everyone did it) and your comparing it to a few million sikhs and wether they eat 2%-8% of their annual meals on the floor or on tables and chair. 6. i would not take young children to a fine dining restaurant because the food would not suit them. older children i would take and they would not mess around on the floor. if i took my young children to a regular restaurant, i would still not allow them to play around on the floor, they woul sit on the chairs and eat their food along with the adults. at meal times at home they do not play on the floor, they sit and eat their food on chairs and tables or high chairs for babies. i have answered all your question and i look forward to your reply. there has been a general flaw in your reasoning and i believe it is this: you are looking for convenience issues in the modern world but the point is that im pointing out common sense in the gurdwara langar hall. you say: "The power of a proper langar on the floor is the beauty of social convention that shouts out against insanity of social convention." i would say " common sense should be used to prevent insanity wether it is social insanity or religious insanity "

yes there were chairs but not as easily available and as cheap to provide as they are nowadays. we still have oil lamps so why do we use electric lightbulbs? we can still walk, why do we use cars? we dont need to have fans or speakers or microphones either so why have they not been banned? why is the food cooked on modern gas hobs instead of wood fires? this is a case of some people not using common sense. why would god be offended by someone sitting on a chair and eating from a table? everyone eats this way everyday at home or in canteen or restaurant. on a separate point i made no declaration of my religion and i refer to the grant sahib in this way.

is it written in the grant sahib that people should not use chairs in the langar hall?

yes your right it is logical, we could have chairs in the darbar hall as well. so it was decided by guru ji to sit on the floor? was it also decided by guru ji to use oil lamps or did they have light bulbs then? did they travel to the gurdwara in cars? have modern heating systems? did they use microphones and speakers? did they use electric fans? was the langar prepared on gas hobs? were the ingredients kept in fridge freezers? this is backward thinking, the purpose of the langar hall is to provide a cheap simple meal and to promote equality by having no special arrangement for anyone wether they are kings or homeless. if everyone has a table and chair then equality is maintained.

perhaps some scientists believe that but they are not in the majority. the whole point of the word universe is that it covers everything. so all these other "universes" would be part of the one and only universe. this 2 part vid explains the multiple universe, aka 'the multiverse'. such a beautiful name. the leading science experiments and theories are very very similar in nature of what our bani describes, but our bani goes that extra 'mile' (so to speak). the major theory is M theory. i have spent my time in reasearching this theory and learning this theory. it is a remarkable theory. it can be thought to be the uniting theory of our universe. anyway, those of us that are slightly scientifically illiterate may find it hard to follow the explaination. other such models include the brane worlds. it is really very intriguing. i frequently say that when the chance arose for the question of 'what is that?' science looked outward, and religon looked inwards. i personally feel that science and religon will come around and meet each other and then science will say, 'oh yea! ok ur right!' to religon. anyway. gurfateh you have a right to your beliefs, but i believe in future it will be religion that says 'oh yea! ok ur right!' to science. this is a logical conclusion if you project the progress of science compared religion and the ever decreasing following of religion in the world. out of interest you say that when science and religion meet, which religion are you referring to there? or all are you referring to all religions?

oh. i c. thanks for the heads up. ( btw, this is not sarkastic.. :umm: ) but anyway, i like a good debate :rolleyes: . i like to see how people think and how far they will go to prove their point and if they listen to others and logic (as per gurmat...) which other site thing had the modsclosed? wana read it.. the topic that was closed was the long one about the shooting in vienna. someone on there called me out to a fight so i responded to tell him i was not afraid and we could arrange a meeting. i did not start the abuse but i did defend myself and will continue to do so if threatened. i am not mentally unstable, very stable infact. i have a right to post on this website, some people are so insecure they cannot handle a good discussion.

i have been to every continent in the world, 48 countries in total and all over india. i feel safe everywhere. i have met people from all over the world and had many great discussions. im not blind and im not a fool. why do you think my questions are unwise? do they trouble you?

singh sabha havelock have chairs in the darbar sahib!! as soon as u enter the darbar sahib, to your immediate right. Singh this is really sad to hear. Chairs in Darbar Sahib. People that live in this area should do something about it. Give us reason's why chairs should be placed for Kings like you in Gurdwaras. Leave your Manmatt behavior at home when you go to the Gurdwara. If fatness is your problem then go to the gym. And eat less, which will be better for society aswell, more food in the market for the rest. its got nothing to do with anyone being kings or poor people. everyone should have chair to sit on in the langar hall thus equality is maintained. how are we more equal when we sit on the floor? it is easier and more natural position to eat food while sitting on a chair. what have you got against tables and chairs in the langar hall? the currecnt situation in some langar halls is unequal because some older people have chairs and tables and some other people dont. who decides who should have chairs and not? what harm do these chairs do? how do you eat food in your house or a restaurant? do you sit on the floor? for your information i have no weight issues not that its any of your business.

that theory is very vague and not widely held position of most mainstream scientists.

Vrooom vrooom, like the sound of that! lol. I think we need a structure to establishing unity among the young, sounds silly but adopting " team building like exercises ". Regular activity clubs sports etc. slightly off topic : oh and a good local sikh business directory, i rather call a sikh electrician then a someone else. cable singh?

im not crazy and i have just as much right to post on here as anyone else has.

thats a good answer. enjoy life but dont be a slave to these things, you should be able to have a healthy sexual relationship, just dont be addicted to have sex, it should be controlled.

Fateh! Yes, drama queen. Yes, you. If the gurdwara is promoting interfaith marriages, then it is a scandal. How difficult is it for you to understand that the Sikh rehat maryada forbids interfaith marriages? Your other points are irrelevant here. K. i can understand that the rehat does not permit inter faith marriage, but my point is that we cant force people to obey or disobey these rules. thats for them to decide. when WAKE UP started this post he complained of hindu boys taking "our girls" we don town these girls they are not ours, if they wish to marry a hindu thats up to them. it should be very simple to complain to the committee to get them to address any problems. i dont require your approval for what is relevant or irrelavant, i will decide for myself.

i will say this: the name after my 1st name is singh. the name after the first name of my wife is kaur. i am happy to discuss this with you but it would be helpfull if you could be more specific? what is the point of this question?

im not shy, i am surprised. this is why im surprised: earlier today you said im a hindu and i drink cows urine. then you said im not a sikh. now you are asking me what religion or beliefs i have. so what can i say to you?

If that's the case Why are you posting on a Sikh forum? i dont get your point? if what is the case? Everytime you are told facts about Sikhi, you dispute them. Do you have a purpose for posting in the forum. You make no sense, you say it is ok for cult leaders to practice their religion. However if their religon is a misguided interpretation of an existing faith, which basically also slanders it, this is ok? Remember Waco, Texas? of course its ok. as long as they dont force you to change your beliefs then you should force them to change theirs. i may post where i wish. if there is something wrong with my posts then thats for the mods to deal with.

If that's the case Why are you posting on a Sikh forum? i dont get your point? if what is the case?