gurdssingh

No one agree with my view about starting petition? Sorry I know I have posted so much recently, it's Easter weekend, I'm at my parents, kids doing my head in etc.. When all the little ****** get together, nieces and george-ous not gorgeous nephew (the ******'s indicate our private family word for the munchkins!, can't reveal it, i'm sworn to secreacy). I need to get away. Distract myself. SORRY going off topic - Seriously though lots of views no response's yet.

Truely inspirational story. This Bibi, is living proof of Waheguru Ji's kirpa being bestowed on her, even though she suffered the most unimaginable attrocities. She has no annomosity, towards those evil culprits. She has a true connection with GOD, very fortunate Bibi, in the fact she is truely without hate. 'Nirvair'. How many of us, especailly being born in the west. Our blood boils with hearing stories of Delhi 1984, sorry also of post mid 1984 Punjab aswell, but I think Sikhs in delhi had a very tough time - totally outnumbered - no where to go - those 3 - 4 days of roiting must have felt like 3 -4 lifetimes. Anyway I hear youths shouting about this that and the other but this Bibi, having experienced these atrocities, still has learnt too turn the other cheek. So I really admire this Bibi. Basically my message, if Iam entitlted to put one across is - take this Bibi's example and please learn to LOVE mankind and not hate. It is easy to get angry listening to others stories I know, I have in the past and still may do. But, next time you do think this that and the other just for one nano second remeber this Bibi's story. Look i'm no saint and tell you the truth if I went through that experience I would not be even the equivilant of the dust on that Bibi's foot. I would have been filled with hate, seeing and experiecing what she has. But yes paa ji, more stories like that are truely inspirational, our younger brothers EDIT: Sorry sisters too, and also the next generation in my opinion need to be told more stories and incidents like this. Please I think those who understand GOD learn to love all mankind, and those who in the name of GOD divide mankind do not at all understand GOD. No one faith or one person is better than any other we are all equal before the ALLMIGHTY. (My personal views, no factual evidence to support).

The website in question i.e. cafepress.com. I think they are misguided in that they have got images and then have used them on all sorts of different attire. They may have innocently done this, without any malice. BUT, that aside they should have looked into abit it think personally. Done abit more research and understood faith is very different to nationality. Iam not so bigoted to think the stuff about Punjabi's is wrong, as you get union jack undies. Nationality you can take into what ever context. I don't care! But, they may not seem to have understood some of the images in their library should not be used on underwear, as it may offend some people. Faith / religion is very delicate issue. You should not use images/ values etc. for frivilous or inappropriate items. In my humble opinion. Look, I am liberally minded, but maybe everyone has a limit and you have to draw the line somewhere. Live and let live, but that should only apply if the view / subject matter does not offend, in circumstances where justifiably it can be proven to be blatently offensive, to any rational person. I do admit they have also got some very witty t-shirts with logo's, images, statements and good one liners. I would consider buying some of them, BUT ONLY IF they decide to remove the offensive (in my view), images on underwear garments.

That is not right. Dear Sangat members, should not all get together and form a sort of petiton, and inform the people of that website and the manufacturers of those garments that the items are highly offensive. We should suggest they refrain from advertising and also discontinue underwear garments with images we as a faith hold with the up most respect. Please I know no-one knows the exact image of Guru Ji, but that is the image which is generally used and accepted by most people. Lets use our heads and calm down before we send them abusive and silly messages. We do not want to sound immature or like fundamental extremists by threatening them and verbally abusing them. Lets do it correctly and hopefully they will acknowledge our view. By they way I haven't checked that site out properly yet, just seen the pics and thought WHAT THE *********!Is it for real or a hoax, because which <banned word filter activated> would buy stuff like that. EDIT: ADMIN - I did not even use a swear word! why is that a banned word?

Hi, I know the point is the message being portrayed, I just wanted to know out of curiosity. Is that based on a true life incident? Or is it just a story?

Gandhi, never supported any freedom fighter, in my humble opinion he thought all freedom fiighters who took direct / pyshical action were all terrorist. He supported non-voilence. In his early years !Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh was MURDERED at the age of 23. Yes 23!!!. Go to Punjab, the majority of people, me included, I'm UK born to UK born parents, but anyway we have photo's of Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh in a yellow dastar as well. He is not shown with full facail hair as he was very young, when murdered. BUT still very insipirational and brave human when he was murdered under the pretext of administrating justice. Are Sikh's not also Punjabi's? Religion and nationality are 2 different things. Why would they distess a Dastar? Again Shaheed - E- Azam Bhagat Singh DID have Dastar and full kesh during periods in his life. With regards to comparing with Sant JI, where did that come from? Very random! Look I am very SORRY TO OFFEND. But please it is how anyone else who holds something/ someone dear to their hearts it makes you very angry about ridiculous and untrue statements. YES I KNOW this is a SIKH forum, we should discuss SIKHI, but please I did not raise the topic. SORRY again, I may have not wrote this with a clear head. I might edit it but you will know which parts I did. As you have already read this.

What ever the view about Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh's religious views whilst in jail, there are many stories. Make your mind up based on the evidence you have before you. (there is a muesuem on the Nawanshaher - Banga main Road. Many of his own writings are there). He did practice Sikhi in earlier life - fact he was a Sikh, from a Sikh family. OK he did cut his hair, later in life (He sacrificied his life for the benefit of many in his young 20's. 23 years old, he was murdered by the British raj, he would have been a true great leader, if he had not been murdered. Gandhi etc. approved of the British actions, they did not want a true HERO! to become the leader of the country. In my view Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh would have had the biggest following post independence. Punjab would never have been partioned. Our shrines such as Nanakana Shaib, Birthplace of Sri Guru nanak Dev Ji, and Panja Sahib, Hassan Abdul to do darshan you need a visa!! For generations Punjab was Punjab! It is the land off our ancestors! Our forefathers travelled where they wanted, you did not need some stamp to allow you to go to a place where you want to do darshan. It's all politics! AHHH! The masses under the guise of religion fall for the tactics of leaders, who for their own personal benefits, lead the masses, distorting facts, fabricating stories. It's just the mentality of the masses which annoys me. A leader in the name of faith, says something, because you belong to that faith you follow the majority like sheep. The brave who speak up, are accussed, they are called derogatory words and threatend. They are supposively helping and supporting the other side. 100% FACT - Mohammed Ali Jinnah - Founder of Pakistan, Father of Pakistan, His photos is on the money, Leader of the Muslim League, was an alcoholic - 100% fact. Islam condones alcholic consumtion. So why, just because Jinnah sahib, was in power could he use the name of Islam, Islam is a great religion to it's followers. I do not oppose members of the faith of Islam. But why can the masses of Punjab's muslim population have fallen for this guy? The rest of Hindustan did but Punjabi's aswell!! Jinnah ji was an arrogant, intolerant and hypocritcal human. Maybe I am wrong please forgive if I offended. Maybe I am wrong because he may have been good in the ALMIGHTIES view. He was lucky to live to see his dream / wish come true. Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh was not fortunate in living to see his goal being realised. It was not even that much more longer, before the British left. (Sorry I don't know correct terminolgy, I know GOD has no views. We can't describe GOD in our words - please understand what I mean). Also I do not want to offend Brit's. I am proud to be British. However, no one can deny the Brits during the raj were not totally faultless and did not do wrong in some cases. They did also do many beneficial activites aswell I am not denying that. The Brits had the most positive impact on India than any other invader. They did also not do it in the goodness of their heart, they did also make a profit and took many valuable assets out of the country. Please just research Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh. His life, his ideals, actions etc. A true great human in my eyes. A hero in my eyes. From a Sikh perspective as this is a Sikh forum, he did not practice Sikhi 100%, we all know he cut his hair. But did he not practice and hold the views of our great faith? Fight oppression, stick up for the weak? Cutting his hair was a big mistake from a Sikhi perspective. But, did he not hold a true Sikh's ideology, Fight oppression and tyranny? What difference does it make if he decided towards the final days of his great live, he expressed the wish to take amrit. If he did not express that view and did not grow his hair back, read gurbani etc. Which for 100% fact he did read gurbani, did have full kesh. Why would you then look at him in another light? If he had the same image / saroop would you still think he was a true shaheed or great person or not? Sorry if I come across as offensive in my post. Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh is one of my true HEROES!! My ancestors are from the same area. I also belong to Sandhu Jatt family. Khatkar Kalan, Nawanshaher District, Punjab. No direct relation to the great Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh. Look please look at the sacrifices Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh took in his live, please he put his body through so much pain for his beliefs. Is that not the actions of a great, with regards to Sikhi. Shaheed - E - Azam Bhagat Singh, did not once reject the ideals he held dear to his heart. Many of his so called satthees (colleugues / friends/ associates) did. I am so pleased Nawanshaher was re-named and offically known as Shaheed Bhagat Singh Nagar. (Look please don't hate on that point about Jatt. I don't believe in castes. All my official doc's passport, driving licence, birth / marriage certificate has my surname as Singh. First time I mentioned my tribal Surname. I have always from birth used Singh). I am very liberally minded, just look at my outlook on live.

PS3, PS2 oh shamed to admit PS even N64 and even the SNES and NES is in the attic. When SNES came out i was like - WOW!! check out the graphics and detail. I connected it up a couple years ago, what was I thinking at the time or was everything that poor!! How things have changed, thank you to new technologies. It's like pre-historic compaired to todays consoles. Best to get the whole family involved, if you young un's is undoubtably Nintendo Wii. It's simply the best all family console, even my little girl 4 years old, plays against me she even wins and beats me sometimes - when i'm trying hard aswell.!!! Hang head in shame. I pretend to everyone else I let her win.

Some tought the world would end in 2000. It didn't. Some think it will end when the myan (Aztec / Ancient Mexican), calender ends in december 21 2012. Do you thibk it will be the end of the world? I doubt it - See what happens. If you think it will there just under two years left do everything you ever wanted to!

Sikhs' in India have the same rights as every other Indian citizen. But you are right, in the fact if we as Sikh's do not want to be classed as Hindhu's why should marriages and the certificates be issued under Hindu Marriage act. I know the British passed the Anand Marriage act, What ever the views of British Raj, both good and bad. They atleast let Sikhs practice their faith and gave Sikh's a seprate identity. Sikhi did flourish under British Rule, just look at the census of the time. Many people classed themselves as Sikh's in every new census. Big percent increases. They may be various reasons, such as the advantages in many ways as each community were given quotas in various areas. Why after independance was the act scrapped? Why under our own rule / independance have the rights of people decreased in some area's. We should have been able to adopt our own identity and have laws which apply to us. Muslims, Christians in India have their own marriage acts. So why class Sikh's under Hindhu's. Why do the law makers want to class Sikh's under Hindhu's if we do not want to be classed under them. We want our separte identity. I'll look into, I have some books on this. I'll post back with the response. But maybe under British rule every community had it's own legal rights as you know british loved to divide and rule. Maybe that is not a valid or accurate argument, it's just my view.

There are only a couple billion muslims in the world, and more than couple of muslim's with a billion (£££££/ $). It is not a very hard task is it? Even 1 penny every so X (please calculate yourself), would see them on their way. Answer to your question is- Depends on which country you are talking about. If it is United Kingdom, brother your are wrong muslims are a minority. Please view http://www.statistics.gov.uk, please have evidence before making statements. Please make sensible statements. Do some research. Without name calling someone on another thread stated something about Shaheed-E-Azam Bhagat Singh, following lala jagat naryan, come on! Do not make ridiculous statements!!!!!! You mean the country in which (what it is called in 2010), Guru Nanak Dev Ji, was born!! Islam was founded by prophet Mohammed in what is now called Saudi Arabia, by the way Guru Ji also visited there. Please do some research! Crusades, is just the starting place with regards to 'in the name of Christ' we did this. Hindu's - maybe you are young. Just look at the past decade, Babri Masjid, Ayodhya and then Gujarat. Do you know about 1984 Delhi? But you must have Forgotten 1984!!!!!!!!! Please I do not know exact figure but Sri Guru Singh Shaba, Southall Havelock Road cost around £17million. How many Gurdware are around King Street area and then Broadway? It's only 15 -20, max 25 minute walk, yes walk in car about 5 minute from start of Broadway / Uxbridge Road (hayes), to Havelock. Not the Arms but the Gurdwara. (Same thing, I suppose). Also the new Gurdwara in Lemington, it is really nice by the way that cost around £11 million. There are only alot off mosques because there are more muslims, fact. Another fact more muslims go to mosques everyday than any other religion in UK. Look at earlier today, Jummah prayers! EDIT: Just to clarify, I meant more muslims go to the mosque than other faiths go to their place or worship. i.e. Sikhs to the Gurdwara, Christians to Church etc.

Only Five, Thanks for the link I will view it. Maybe we have different views on topics. So if we disagree on somethings intially, I do appriciate the links you provide.

Sorry, I forgot to mention by "they" I meant Indeginious Europeans.

WOW!!!!!! ( I voted YES, both times). I just looked at the questions & results of the poll. Very intolerant is it not? With regards to UK, England, where I live. Hypothetically if there were no muslims in the UK. I am not muslim, but if I was an indeginous Brit, or memeber of BNP, or EDL would I then not pick on someone else? Are there not enough Gurdware in UK? Or any other, Mandir, Synagone, Temple etc? Even if there where no other faiths. How about Black churches? (They had mass immigaration in the lates 40's / 50's). Please live and let live, let others do as they please! With regards to extremist's just view some of the posts on this very site. SORRY - I know that may result in a backlash. But please I 'am only going on the response's to which I posted. EDIT: (just to clarify) reponse's to the post I made. - Please read all my post I have nothing to hide. Look at the responses I received. Some members on this site seem to think our way is the best. All other ways are fruitless. Only my way is the best. I find that very intoelrant and biggoted. What about the rest of mankind? Are we all doomed? Is it better to be a good human being or a good Sikh/ Muslim / Christian/ Hindu/ Buddhist/ Jew etc? (Many other Faiths) On a side note Swiss are supposed to be most neutral country in Europe (No?) But they recently banned any new minarets being built in the country. (Early This year 2010, not sure exact date). Who supports that? If you do, do you not think they will not then turn on your religion?

Only Five, Please I stated I don't know in relation to Sikhi. My words were: So I just expressed my personal view. How do you know what love is? How do you know if I have not felt it? LOVE can be defined in many ways by the person who experiences it. Maybe you are talking about something else like lust or temporary relations, I don't know what you are describing please clarify. True love, lasts. You know when you are experiencing it. Point noted thank you, you are right. How can I know what GOD feels, as GOD does everything GOD has no feelings. But sometimes it is hard to use correct terminolgy with regards to GOD. You used the word he. GOD is GOD, neither he nor she. So do you? Is everyone that perfect? What happens when are sleeping, can anyone prove that? How about at work or maybe you are still studying? When you have to sit an exam and give all your concentration to do something or answer an exam question can you do both think of Waheguru and figure out the answer? Maybe I don't know GOD, I am still seeking GOD. Where is the contradiction?

The whole thread or just that post? Look I know it will sound childish I apologise in advance but please I don't support Darshan Lal or any other Darshan red,white and blue. Not even Darshan the star-spangled banner. I have no affilations with any organisations. I just used Azaad's quote, to state he was not worshiping, to support the fact things can be taken out of context. Yes there are two sides to everything. I took the statement at face value, it could be true, it maybe false. I will look into it. I am not here to defame anyone especailly Sikh's. I only post my own view. Sorry maybe I have taken it the wrong way and misunderstood your post GPS. Just to make it clear I do not support Darshan Lal's views. Sorry to his fan club if I offended you. I just wanted to post I do not support those views!!!!!

Exactly it's going nowhere. I don't understand why some people have taken offense to my view, of if live and let live. If someone wants to pray in a particular manner, why should it concern anyone else, why do you have to condemn him for it. Okay, I admit I was misguided and ignorant to the fact Amarjit Chawla was involved in Pantihc affairs and so it was totally wrong for him to be worshiping there. When someone posted that and informed me, I understood why he should not have been there. But, some seemed to pick up on only one part of a statement I expressed and have took it out of context and have just concentrated on it. Everything else I wrote was discarded and ignored. Please read Azaad's post. It there states he did not even worship, just visited the mandir. I know I have stated it many times before in earlier posts in this thread, but you can see how things can be taken out of context and distorted. Even before I posted on this thread I stated in my profile about contradictory texts / facts in Sikhi. Just from this one thread I can see how if someone has a premisconception, they will look for and focus on specific detail which backsup their view and base their argument on that point, discarding the rest of the evidence. I think this thread has ran it's course but it's up to the sangat!

Little Brother, Can you give abit more info on how it will work, costs involved (I know you say free but you will have to still pay to hosting fees etc), administrated etc? I think you have great enthusiasm, I wish I had the spritual eagerness you seem to have at your age. On a side note I read your post about facial hair. . I think someone suggested rubbing the oil on your face after prashad. Personally I don't think you should but each to their own. Try on your legs or arms first see what happens? All the best with your endeavours. It great to know you are on this site now, I seen your name of members online now at the bottom, most kids your age will be playing PS3 / XBOX 360 or watching Eastenders.

Dear Only Five, I have tried too and will also answer the questions you put to me. But please read through all my posts in this thread and do the courtesy of answering the questions I have raised, all of them from the start please even if they directed to the whole sangat and not just you. As you are so much more enlightend than me I would be very fortunate to have your wise take on things. I stated That is the point with regards to Prof. Shaib Singh JI. That is supporting my view with evidence. Not hiding behind someone. The part about I don't know is as follows; I don't know how or what are Hindu practices. Maybe it was my mistake I should have started a new paragraph, but, as stated in earlier posts by me, a full stop indicates the end of a sentence. After a full stop a new point is then being made. Now your whole argument is flawed, is it not! (Please read all with out making a judgement just yet) If you think GOD can take human form or something close to it, by the way your words not mine. Then with that logic GOD can take any form right? So are Hindhu's right? To them GOD maybe in the form of an idol, you seem to think GOD can take any form don't you? Does that not then include deities in mandirs? I have stated before I think idol worship is not right, so have you but now you are contradicting yourself. (However, I have also said if someone else wants to, so be it. No skin off my nose how or what anyone else does). Look please do forgive me I'm not psyhic like you, but as a rational person is that not a correct analysis. Listen please try to learn the art of debate, learn to read and examine the evidence before you without having pre-misconceptions, making judgments based on your take of things. As in the responses you have posted you have totally discarded my views with comments such as thats trash or name calling. Not say describing someone as another religion is so bad but still. I know you don't beleive the statement I have made just above, but the point I am making is the following. I have taken your words, not changed them and then taken them out of context. If someone was to view and only look at this one part there is quite strong evidence with the point I have put across. Is there not? So please before making accusations or thinking other things take your time read everything, don't focus on just one sentance. Before responding to a post and discarding the response as trash, take time to read every word, and also the previous posts. Sometimes when posting again you do not reiterate your previous points. Please also can you provide a link or the name of the text/ book/ author where I can find out more translations and in depth analysis of the interpretations you have posted please. Genuinley I really do want to learn the meaning's of the Guru's teachings. I seriously thought as every where I have looked Guru Nanak Dev Ji, stated he was not GOD, but the messenger of the ALMIGHTY. Please like I stated before I don't know very much I want to learn. I will also check out the you tube link. Thank you. By the way what does the following mean? Is that wrong or is it funny?

Please make your mind up. Are words meanigless if you can't back them up? Please read your earlier post. Becuase providing evidence to your statemnt is hiding behind someone in your opinion. I stated

That is what I am trying to explian, please take your time when reading posts without jumping to conclusions. My exact words earlier: Let me elaborate for you, I made the statement so I will explain my thinking. I understand Kabir Ji said if GOD was a stone I will worship a mountain, a mountain is the biggest formation of rock on earth. So then instead of worshiping little stones I will worship the biggest stone as the biggest is normally the best. It was not meant to be taken literally, I think the meaning was it's pointless to worship anything else, only worship GOD, no other form. There is always going to be a bigger and better stone etc, mountain. Above sea it is Everest, below sea Everest is a mere dwarf compared to the height of mountains there, mankind to date does not 100% accurately know the height of the highest mountain below sea level.

Bloom, Thank you for clearing that up, I don't think your post was up when I posted, I must of missed it as you posted before me. Ik Onkar - there is only one GOD. Satnam - GOD's name is truth. Karta Purakh - The Creator. - If GOD is the creator, so in human form GOD will have a mother and father (they will be the creators of the creator), as you know you are subordinate to your parents. How can GOD be subordinate to anyone? Nirbhoa - has no fear Nirvarh - has NO HATE. Should we as mere human's not also practice this? Akal Moorat - GOD is eternal, forever, immortal. All Humans die that is a fact - how can GOD die? Ajooni - Unborn. Not re-incarnated. GOD was not born, GOD has always been. Humans are born. It's not like the cartoons where the stalk brings you the baby. Siabhan - Self - existent. GOD is self creating, has no external support. Has no origin. Babies come from parents. Gur Parsad - by Guru's grace.

Hi, Only five we can talk direct now. we are both viewing same thread, I have also PM'ed you. It's 1.43am so I'm going to sleep very soon. Is there anything you want to ask me? I am not Hindu, but what's with all the hate?

Answering directly - Personally I don't pray to dieties, I have never even been inside a mandir. I think it is ok for anybody to worship in what ever way they feel connects them with GOD. The only point I have been trying to make is why does it concern any one else how that guy worshiped. Can I just ask how old you are please because your response is that of a juvenile. Why do I have Hindu ways? Because I thought if someone worships in a mandir it is not a great sin. Why does it affect anyone else how he prays. That was the only point I tried to make in this thread. How the debate has changed is people making judgements and coming up with conclusions without fully reading what is written. I am not trying to be clever, read the posts does it not state only Amritdhari's are allowed to talk about Sikhi? I am no victim, all I asked was if I was welcome on this site, because it is a Sikh forum, and so am I entitled to have view on Sikhi? Where and how have I tried to make a fool out of anyone. Please provide evidence. Or again are your psyhic powers which told you I am a Hindu lead you to that conclusion. I am not hiding behind anyone. Gurds is what everyone I know calls me, Singh is my surname. Whereas Only Five is a pseudoname. Have you not participated in debate before? It is not called hiding behind someone it is called justifying your point of view with evidence. Read all my post again and then again slowly, taking care of punctuation the second time round. A full stop (or period in USA looks like this . ), means a sentance is stopped and a new point is beginning. I said I don't know about how Hindu's worship. Just read mool mantar you will get your answer. GOD can not take human form. That is a Hindu view that GOD can take the form of a human. Don't get that bit please clarify. I was so looking forward to that part but you lied, it failed to materalise there was no more bite you could have at least given abit more important info. Or were you just teasing?

All I have been saying from the start is why be so upset at another person's religious practices. The only point I have been trying to put across is if thats what he wants to do why should it be so offensive to anyone else. But okay I have the answer in he is involved in panthic affairs. I don't understand where the misconception of I believe idol's are more important than Waheguru has come from? I did not know it was a really bad thing to go to various places of worship, is it? Did any of Guru's not visit other faiths places of worship? Looking at the other side of the coin and reversing the situation, that would mean it would be wrong for people of other faiths to visit the Gurdwara. That is not true, anyone is allowed in the Gurdwara as long as they have not been smoking / drinking etc, and observe the practices i.e. shoes off, hair covered etc. If someone of another faith visited the Gurdwara would you not expect them to show respect and bow down to SGGS Ji. I know Amarjit was worshiping but this is in relation to the above quote, 'it is really bad to go to another religious place'. Are you just referring to people who want to control Sikh institutions or everyone else who falls in to that category? Maharaja Ranjit Singh was summoned to the Akal Thakt for breaking the rehat and was also punished, which he accepted. He continued to associate with a muslim woman, drank liquor and consumed opium. He also visited many places of worship. But as he had contributed generously to many shrines, and other reasons he is highly respected. For example he is commemorated above the entrance of Darbar Sahib, Sri Harmandir sahib. Also I recall a picture of him on the top corner of the main gate / entrance that leads to Sri Hazur Sahib complex. Surely then this is not right according to your views? You seem to believe that only Amritdhari's can have a view or talk about Sikhi. Is this not a bigoted and intolerant view? That means then on the flip side, you should not be able to have a view on another person's faith or religious practices. That to me sounds absurd no doubt you think the opposite but, how else can anyone learn if we cannot indulge in religious discourse and debate, raise questions and state personal views. Before 1699, it was not a massive sin to cut one's hair was it? (As the Khalsa had not been initiated). I have found no evidence. So what about those people who associated with the Guru's and had an influence on Sikh affairs prior to Vaisakhi 1699? We do not know for a fact if any one of the early Sikh's of importance ever cut their hair or not or did anything else. With regards to kurahits. Just one question maybe someone can answer this, why was the rehat maryada passed down orally / Why was there no written record from the start? The only thing is it has changed over the years. WHY? One example is at one point the learned scholars of the panth had - associating / having contact / relations with a Muslim women as a very big sin. Muslim women changed to any other woman who is not your wife / committing adultery. Also the issue of jhatka is controversial amongst many, i.e. is jhatka defined as no meat or meat in which the animal is killed with one blow, not sacrificially such as halal. Jhatka of goats is practicesd to this date, I have witnessed it at Hazur Shaib and other Gurdware around Nanded. You maythink that, and you are entitled to your opinion. I am not so arrogant and egotistical in stating I know everything or that I'm an expert in any field as there is always going to be someone else who will know a lot more on that specific topic. I admitted I'm not well versed in Bani. Whereas with regards to Gurmukhi, please re-read the first five words of my first post on this thread. Having no knowledge against admitting you don't know everything and have lots more to learn are different things. You can see how easy it is to make judgements and then with your own opinion to make untrue statements. As for wasting my time it's up to me what I do, your time simply don't read my post and others – how can you comment? . Where did catholic school issue come from as I didn't start it? I thought many members were from the UK, reason being many of the sangat's posts / responses suggest this. I know for a fact in every mainstream primary school in UK, hymns are sung in assembly. I was merely making a comparison. Please read my posts again, either I haven't made myself clear or you have misunderstood me. I meant even though he is there all he is doing is praying, is that so wrong? But from a Sikhi perspective it is – I understand that now, thanks to your responses. Earlier I have stated Sikhi does not approve of idol worship. My only point I have been trying to put across is that why have a problem with the way someone else worships, each to their own, live and let live. Just because you may not agree with it and think it's totally wrong why condemn the person for it. I have stated in my earlier post I don't agree with idol worship but why judge what others do? Does bani not state that we can't go to GOD directly, we need Guru Ji. (English translationof SGGS, taken from Prof. Shaib Singh Ji). As Sikh's connect with Waheguru Ji, through Bani of our GURUs. So maybe Hindu's connect in their own way I don't know. I don't know how Hindu's pray in mandirs. Again please take time to read my posts before jumping to conclusions and making false statements. It is so easy to understand why things can be taken out of context just from this thread. Meaning if a person is conditioned in a certain way, they will jump to conclusions putting their own slant on a topic / conversation as they have already made up their mind. Without even accuratley reading / listening the information before them. On a personal note is there a hint in some of the posts in this thread that I am not welcome on this site or to even talk about or discuss Sikhi? As in my profile I have disclosed that I am not Amritdhari. Please honest answers.