Jonny101

I don't think one can blame the modern Pakistanis for the atrocities committed by the Mughals. One should be judged on their own merit not based on what religion or country they belong to. You will find good and bad people in all faiths. Most of the Pakistanis I have met are good people. One of my closest friends is a Muslim. It doesn't make sense to paint an entire people with the same brush. This isn't what our Gurus taught us. I read a Punjabi book about 2 years ago Guru Gobind Singh Jee de Mussalmaan Shardaloo. That book mentioned so many Muslim shardhaloos of Gurus Ji who risked their lives for Guru Jee in the most difficult of times. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and it's their actions that determine if they are good or bad.

WOW, great story, please scan this whole article veerji.

Insulting the founder of a major world religion is not right. If you don't agree with something it's better to keep your views to yourself. This is a Sikhism forum, people come here to learn about Sikhism not insult other religions. The kind of content I see here sometimes and on other Sikh forums is exactly why I wouldn't suggest a Hindu or Muslim to learn about Sikhism from a Sikh discussion forum. Even if you don't agree with someone, does it hurt to be a little respectful to a fellow human being? **SSM edit : If you find any such posts that contradict Gurmat and/or violate the rules of the forums (like what you said in your post above), please feel free to report them so mods can see them faster. A lot of people view these forums and it's the duty of everyone, including those that post here, to ensure the environment remains tolerant and intellectual. Dhanvaad

This thread is getting very ugly. Please close it.

I am personally not pro Hindu or pro Muslim. I'm neutral between the two so based on this neutral perspective here is my take on this. After the disastrous and humiliating defeat of India during the 61 war at the hands of the Chinese the Pakistanis thought they are in a position to take on India. The 65 war was initiated with operation Gibraltar when Pakistan sent Pakistani insurgents who tried to create a rebellion in Kashmir. At the time the Kashmiris were not separatists as they became during the 80s. It was the Kashmiris who were sounding alarm bells that Pakistanis are in Kashmir trying to stir a rebellion. India saw it's occupied portion of Kashmir as Indian territory and Pakistanis as invading it's territory. India invaded Pakistani Punjab in response. By the end of the war, India managed to take large parts of the Pakistani Punjab. India was the clear winner in this war although Pakistan also claimed victory in this war for some reason. The 71 war was started by India. Indira Gandhi was very aggressive towards Pakistan. She had trained and initiated a rebellion in Balochistan and Bangal(East Pakistan). At the time Bangalis had gotten a raw deal by west Pakistan much like the way Sikhs were getting a raw deal in India but only worse. The Bangali language had no official recognition even though they were the demographic majority. They won the election but their leader was not recognized by west Pakistan. India saw this as an opportunity and started to train the Mukti Bahini. The Pakistanis on their part acted very harshly killing nearly 3 million Bangalis and raping hundreds of thousands of Bangali women. This act had shattered the 2 nation theory of Jinnah. Things were getting very bloody in Bangal when India saw this as an opportunity to invade and divide Pakistan in two which it did. Hassan Nisar has described what happened during that time very well. When Sikhs were attacked and persecuted by India during the 80s, Pakistan saw this as an opportunity to finally take revenge for 71. They also began to arm and train the Sikhs as the Mukti Bahini were by India. So in conclusion, both India and Pakistan are not angels. They both have grievances with each other that need resolving. Ultimately I blame the British for this whole mess. If they did not come here, today Sikhs would have had their own nation. Kashmir would not have been a problem today(between Hindus and Muslims) because Sikhs would be ruling it right now :biggrin2:

Auzar Ji, how was it inevitable? the making of Pakistan actually had more negative impact than good on the subcontinent. If Pakistan was not made, atleast there would have been a balance between the Hindus and Muslims. Sikhs, Christians and other minorities were safe as long as this balance was maintained. But since pakistan was created, it broke this delicate balance and made the Hindus into the overwhelming majority who can trample on the minorities any way they wanted as was done to the Sikhs, Indian Muslims, Christians. As an example, it's like the world situation since the end of the cold war. The world was in balance as long as there were 2 superpowers, but since the fall of the Soviet Union, the US has become the world bully which is not a good thing. Similarly in India there was a balance between Hindus and Muslims, but with the creation of Pakistan it not only weakened the position of the Indian Muslims but also made Hindus into bullies who can bully around any minority they want. Now since Pakistan was created, Sikhs feel(and for good reason) that they should have also had their own country instead of being left at the mercy of a Hindu majority India.

Anything negative about Pakistanis coming out of the UK, you can attribute to the Mirpuris.

http://www.sikhnet.com/gurbani/audio/kabir-lootna-hai-te-loot-lei

When the partition happened, much violence and death occurred between Sikhs and Muslims. This caused much ill will and mistrust between the two communities. Right after 1947, Sikhs got a raw deal from the Hindus in India. Pakistanis at the time began to use this as an opportunity to forge ties with the Sikhs. When 1984 happened, the Sikhs and Hindus began to literally hate each other. This event pushed Sikhs and Muslims closer due to mutual interests and a common enemy. Compared to the other minorities in Pakistan, the Sikhs are treated better. My uncle went to Pakistan on a Yatra a few years ago and told me this too. In the UK however there seems to be different story. The UK is the only western country whose Pakistani community is represented not by the Punjabis but by the Mirpuris. The Mirpuris have given much offense to the Sikhs which is why many Sikhs in the UK mistrust Pakistanis(as is evident from the UK Sikhs in this forum who have very negative feelings for Pakistanis). The Mirpuris have done much to ruin Pakistan's reputation amongst non-Pakistanis in the UK.

I thought the British were secretly helping the South(confederates) against the North?

This incident is the height of Beadbi. How can those migrants come in our own state and do this so blatantly is beyond belief. The way that Singh went into the police station and shot that dusht shows that there are still some Ghairatmand Sikhs left in Punjab who will do anything for their Guru.

Panther veerji, seriously how did it get to this? did Auzar jee say anything against our dharm that you feel you should insult his dharm like this? imagine if he did the same thing and replied using insults against what we hold (religiously) dear how would we feel? we wouldn't like it anymore than he would. He did not even write anything remotely insulting towards anyone yet why does he get insults in return? this is not the Sikh way to behave. Insulting people of other faiths is not the Sikh way. This is becoming a disturbing pattern. I remember there was a Hindu here not too long ago by the name of "hindu veer". And the same thing happened there. Every time he wrote something(not even remotely offensive) people wrote disrespectfully against his Dharm for no reason. This is not how a Sant Sipahi should be.

During partition no one was safe, it didn't matter how big of a Sardar you were. All were fair game to be killed by rioters on both sides of the border. Another story of partition is one of my relatives. This man was my grand mother's cousin(chacha's son) and lived in Lyalpur(now called Faisalabad). He was an officer in the army and had fought in WW2 in Burma and was also of high rank but had retired by the end of the war. When he and his entire family and his brothers & cousins and their families were ready to migrate they decided to migrate together because it was safer when you are in a large group. This group consisted of thousands of Sikhs. Along the way they fought off many rioters and looters successfully. Then for some reason my relative and his brothers and cousins were separated from the larger group of Sikh migrants. They now became vulnerable to attack since they were no longer a large enough group. They were then attacked by Baloch soldiers who were notorious for killing Sikhs and helping the rioters. The Sikhs did not have any weapons except for a few Kirpans while the Baloch soldiers were armed with rifles. My relative who had lost all his belongings including his extra cloths had his former army uniform with him. So his started wearing his uniform since he had nothing else to wear. But he along with his brothers/cousins were attacked by Baloch soldiers who took my relative to their commanding officer(also a Baloch). When the Baloch officer saw my relative in his uniform he asked him who he was. My relative explained to him he was in the army and fought in Burma. Coincidentally the Baloch officer also fought in the same war in the same battles. He immediate stood up and gave a salute to my relative out of respect since they were both officer class and had coincidentally fought the same battles during WW2. The Baloch officer then told my relative's brothers and cousins that if he was not your relative you would all be dead by now. The Baloch officer personally escorted my relative and his brothers/cousins to safety. When they reached safety they all told him to keep on his uniform since that uniform is what saved them from certain death.

I think it's just an American thing. Look at switzerland where almost every citizen has a gun yet it's one of the safest places in the world.

Great post. My friends great grand father had an interesting story as well. During partition, there was a Muslim girl left behind in her village(her entire family had fled). When some Punjabis caught hold of her they were going to kill her just then my friend's great grand father who was a respected man in the village arrived at the scene and saved that girl. He told them that from now on this girl is my daughter and no one will touch her. That girl stayed at my friend's great grand father's house for a few days after which she was safely escorted to the border by the elders of the village. She was also given some money and food by my friend's family so she could survive until she united with her family. A Pakistani told me of an interesting story once. This story is from one of the indo pak wars(either 65 or 71). During the war, a Pakistani soldier was caught by Indian soldiers and made a prisoner. The officer in charge(who was a Sikh) began to interrogate the Pakistani soldier. When he asked him what village he was from it turned out that the village was the same village the Sikh officer was from before partition(in Pakistan). The Sikh officer then asked some more questions further confirming this fact. The Sikh officer was so over joyed on meeting someone from his original village that he let the Pakistani soldier go free. The Pakistani who told me this story was from this same village. It's stories like this that really touch the soul. And it's such stories that we need to bring out before the people who lived it die off.

Guys, why is this turning into a Islam bashing thread? brother auzer didn't insult our religion, why you guys insulting his religion like this? We must make ourselves spiritually strong, but not by showing others as low. We must lift ourselves to a level that our Guru intended us to be as. ``````````````````````````````````````` Such posts have been deleted. Just a friendly reminder to not turn this into a bashing thread. GENERAL RULES While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters. Refrain yourself from writing any derogatory comments on any religion. Any particular practice of a religion can be questioned but must be done so in a respectful and non-offensive manner. Note to everyone posting. You may have discussions, but make them respectful and culturally sensitive. You may remake the posts, but anything considered breaking the Forum rules will be deleted.

Not surprisingly. A lot of these Snatanist youth are so confused that they end up leaving Sikhi. Sanatanists are as confused about Sikhi as Kala Afghanis.

Dharminder's pind, sahnewal.

Regarding 1947, it is a sad thing to have happened. Muslims should not be proud of Sikhs and Hindus being killed and neither should Sikhs be proud of Muslims being killed. 1 million human beings in Punjab died needlessly. Communities were separated permanently. Children were orphaned and women were raped by both sides regardless of who started it. It's probably the most tragic chapter in Punjab's history and should not have happened. The Brits really screwed up the modern world.

I'll never understand those "Sikhs" who claim that. I'm Indian before I'm Sikh. This type of thinking is a direct result of the secular education of India. A true Sikh will always be a Sikh first and foremost. Nation always comes second. These types of nationalistic notions are western and later adopted by Bangali revolutionaries during the British Raaj. Later these Bengali freedom fighters began to see their country India has a deity(Devi) to be worshiped, that is where the anthem Vande Mataram comes from a novel written by a Bangali who used India as a devi personification which is worshiped, that is where the concept of Desh Bhagti came into being. Sirdar Kapoor Singh Jee writes about this in this book Saachi Saakhi. Desh Bhagti is a very recent creation and it is not divinely inspired by a Mahatma. It is from a fictional Bangali novel. Sikhs have always fought for independence but as Sikhs of the Guru, not as Desh Bhagats. If nation comes first then were the millions of Sikhs in Pakistan wrong for not converting to Islam in 1947 and instead choosing to save their religion and move to India? after all, according to the modern interpretation of Desh Bhagti those Sikhs should have chosen their Desh(Pakistan) over their Dharm but thank God Sikhs back then were not Desh Bhagats like the Pappus today have become. For a Sikh, Sikhi will always be 1st. A Sikh lives and dies for Sikhi.

I don't think "the warrior" left because he saw Sikhs "fighting"(actually debating) amongst each other. Debating amongst followers of a religion is not a reason to leave any religion. He probably had some personal weaknesses because of which he could not follow the religion and thus saw it better to leave and later cites the excuse of Sikhs debating as a reason for his leaving. Sikhi is for the strong not for the weak or timid. One should become a Sikh for the love of the Guru and if that person truly loves his Guru he will remain a Sikh of the Guru even if he has to face a sawa lakh fauj.

Some of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale Jee's students no longer share the same view as Sant Jee. Examples of such students are Sant Hari Singh Jee Randawa and Giani Inderjit Singh Ji. Both of these former students have a lot of Gian and are worthy of respect because of their Gian but it seems they have drifted away from their former teacher greatly. They should not be seen as representing the views of Sant Gubachan Singh Bhindranwale as it is often done by the followers of these two former students of Sant Jee. They should be seen based on their own merit and views. The true inheritors of Sant Jee's views are the Gianis of Taksal from Mehta and Bhinder Kalan.

FACE PALM From the hundreds of thousands of Sikhs living in the US they couldn't get a single Sikh who can speak proper fluent English? another missed opportunity. Thing is, even Sardar Ishwar Singh Jee should have had this much sense to say I'm not up to the task, why not give someone else an opportunity who is better suited to represent the Sikhs of America.

One person made some very good comments on that article: It's pretty clear here, this Ricky Gill is taking Sikhs for a ride. He solicits Sikhs for money yet tries to distance himself from Sikhs. ਇਕ ਨੰਬਰ ਦਾ ਠੱਗ ਹੈ ਇਹ. Spread the word around, don't waste your money on this guy.

These communist Sikhs are the biggest hypocrites amongst us. My uncle for example is very proud of his communist beliefs. He will ridicule religious Sikhs every chance he gets. He hangs a picture of stalin in his house and his son hangs a picture of Che Guevara in his room. They will say the most disgusting things against the Shaheed Singhs of 84 and after because they took up the gun to fight injustices. When I point towards their idols(stalin and Che) and say why didn't Stalin put down his guns before hitler or why did Che Guevara fight all his youthful life and die in the end fighting, to this they have no answer. These communists have caused the most damage to the Sikhs in the 20th century. Because of their anti Sikh lifestyle, almost all their daughters have married non Sikhs(including my communist uncle's daughter!). When they see their daughters marrying non Sikhs they wonder what went wrong. It is best to keep these communists away from the Gurdwara committees. Whenever they become religious they almost always adopt the atheistic philosophy of of Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana. Not surprisingly since Kala Afghana, Gagha are all former communists themselves. May Guru Jee save us from the remnants of these communists.