californiasardar1

Now that this thread is back up here, maybe someone can answer the following question: Where can a young man go to meet nice Sikh women? Keep in mind the following: 1. I'm convinced that looking online is a waste of time. No one can get to know you personally and your confidence and other personal traits do not come through. Online, women are only going to want to talk to guys who meet their preconceived image of "handsome," and for most women, that image is not one of a sardar. Even if some of these women online are capable of appreciating a sardar, I'm convinced it could only happen through personal meetings, not online where pictures and prejudices mean everything. 2. My family is completely useless in terms of introducing me to anyone. So what options does that leave? 1. Go to the Gurdwara. This sounds good in theory, but let's face it. Punjabi culture is pretty conservative and young men and women do not typically converse openly and comfortably in a religious setting like the Gurdwara. 2. Go to some Punjabi cultural event. I suspect that the crowd of women who go to these events are probably not very interested in sardars. I'd really appreciate any suggestions. You have all made great suggestions about how one needs to act in order to attract the right woman. But how do you even meet one in the first place?

Hi ConfusedAndFloating. I think you make a lot of great points, although I disagree with some of what you said. Since I started the thread you are referring to, I feel like a lot of your comments are directed towards me, so I will try to respond. I think the group of girls who are unwilling to consider marrying ANY Singh is much larger than the group of "cut haired, night club" types. I've seen plenty of matrimonials saying something along the lines of "We are looking for a non-drinker, non-smoker, religious, family-oriented groom who respects our culture. He must be clean-shaven." I've seen plenty of matrimonial profiles of girls indicating they are vegetarian and do not drink and who, based on their pictures, do not have noticeably cut hair but are nevertheless only interested in clean-shaven men. I also know of many first-hand examples of girls from fairly religious, keshdari families who are unwilling to marry sardars (this sadly includes some girls I am related to). You are right that some of us are hypocritical and still struggle with desiring a "typically attractive" girl who obviously has no regard for our religion. I don't deny that. But my point is that there are many seemingly more traditional girls who would appear to be open to sardars who actually aren't. And that can be pretty galling. In any case, you are right that we might be defining "Sikh girls" too liberally. Perhaps we should only define "Sikh girls" to only include girls willing to marry sardars. I know some exist. But here's the problem: when you are looking at 1% (or 2%, or whatever) of an already very small community which has a very low population density outside of Punjab, it makes it awfully hard to find anyone. And that's just to find someone open to marrying ANY sardar. There's no telling if they will actually be into you (or if you will be into them). It's natural to want to have some sort of selection when choosing a partner. I can only speak for myself here, but I've never seriously considered cutting my hair. I will admit that during the darkest, most frustrating times, I've wondered how things might be easier if I did have cut hair. But when I consider how insulting that would be to our Gurus, our ancestors, and myself (I have gotten this far, after all), I know that it's something I could never feel okay about or bring myself to do. It would be like taking my dignity and throwing it in the trash. I would probably literally kill myself before I could bring myself to cut my hair. Is it weak for me to wonder at times in an abstract sense what life would be like if I cut my hair? Sure. But it's not something I've seriously considered. I guess I'm guilty of having impure thoughts occasionally. I'm a work in progress, and will keep trying to improve myself. Maybe there are some really strong people out there who never struggle with impure thoughts. But I think your disgust might be better directed at people who actually act on such thoughts rather than people who are guilty of having such thoughts but are able collect themselves enough to never come close to acting upon them. I think it's awesome that you feel that way. That's how I feel when I look at images of the Gurus and Khalsa warriors and shaheeds. It's puzzling to me why so many people seem to have such negative images of sardars. Anyway, I realize it's probably disappointing for you that most Singhs aren't walking around all day like invincible warriors above any feelings of doubt, despair, or anxiety. I know a lot of the emotions guys like me have expressed in this discussion make us look weak, petty, and unattractive (which is why the anonymity of the internet is appropriate for it). But perhaps you should try to think of the majority of flawed Singhs as people who are trying their best, even though they have shortcomings and often fail to live up to the idealized image of Singhs which we like to have. Who are you guys, and how can I contact you? (just kidding) Seriously though, it's awesome that you guys felt that way. But do you honestly think that a large proportion of Punjabi girls feel that way? If there is some part of the world where it is common for girls to daydream about sardars, please let me know. Again, you're right that there are Gursikh girls who only want Singhs, but they are rare enough that it does become a "needle in a haystack" situation when you take into consideration the rest of the filtering process that takes place when finding a partner. I'm not someone who does this. You make a great point about the difficulties that women face. I agree with you 100%. Anyway, you made a very thoughtful thread, and I'm glad you are participating in the discussion. To sum things up, I agree with you that having a whiny attitude is not the way to go out and find a partner. It is very important to have a positive attitude. But do you think we have a legitimate concern? Do you disagree with us that this is a very serious issue in our community that, if left unchecked, will all but reduce the keshdari sardar to a historical footnote in the coming decades? Do you disagree that the proportion of non-trimming sardars in our community has dwindled dramatically in recent years? Guys like me can stop complaining, but that won't alter the reality of these very disturbing trends.

I think you make a lot of good observations. Many of the people who came int he 60s and 70s were reduced to making a living working in factories and holding other types of undesirable jobs. It's almost as if to compensate for their own inferiority complex they wanted to prove how "western" and "modern" they were.

I think you are absolutely right. The Sikh community should put all other issues aside and focus on how to turn things around before it is too late. I think a big problem with the youth is there are no authoritative figures to even push them in the right direction. If you go on facebook and look at any random Khalistan or Bhindranwale page, most of the kids posting there have their hair cut (it's quite amusing, I must say). They obviously have some love for Sikhi in their hearts, but my guess is that no adult in their lives ever even attempted to get them to keep their kesh, and it was probably never even a consideration for them at any point in their lives, no matter how they eventually came to take pride in their religion. However, I think that observation mostly applies to the West, where the youth generally are brought up with indifference towards our religion. Sadly, in Punjab, it seems not to be indifference, but rather actual contempt. In the West, innocent kids will have grown up without ever having been taught about their religion. In Punjab, they will grow up aware of the religion and with the view that the last thing they want to be is someone who looks like a "giani" or "baba". With them, it's not that the option of keeping their kesh was never presented to them. In Punjab, kids are all well aware of that option. It's just that its been portrayed as the obviously wrong option.

Yeah, I've noticed that people whose families came to the West in the 60s or 70s seem to have less respect or awareness about Sikhism (I think my family, which has been in the US since the early 70s, is an exception). It seems they felt the only way to make it in the West was to completely shed their Sikh identities and try to become white, and thats what they encouraged in their children. By contrast, people who came to the West in the 80s and 90s (perhaps partially due to decreasing discrimination of minorities in Western countries, and partially due to the events of 1984) appear to have a little more respect for their religion and culture (although this doesn't seem to have translated when it comes to keeping kesh). I never knew much about the whole Doaba/Malwa/Majha differences, but now that I think about it, most of the people I know of whose parents came here in the 60s and 70s (and who have little regard for Sikhism) are from the Doaba region. However, in the big picture, I don't know if the differences are really all that noteworthy. Perhaps Malwa has a smaller proportion of fully clean-shaven Sikhs than Doaba and a higher proportion of trimmers who wear turbans. And perhaps that means, in a very marginal sense, the people from Malwa have more attachment to the Sikh religion. But when it's all said and done, the number of young turban-wearing, non-trimming men in either region is depressingly small.

I was born in the US and have lived here my entire life. I've often found it frustrating that 99.9% of Americans do not know who we are. Before 9/11, they just had no idea or opinion. After 9/11, almost all Americans thought we were Muslims. I've also often wished that there was a higher density of Punjabi people around. In most parts of America, the Sikh community is spread out. You don't run into other Sikhs often unless you make the effort to (or if you live in, say, Yuba City). I've often wondered how life might be different for Sikhs in the UK. I've never been there, but I know Sikhs have been settled in the UK for a longer period of time and seem to have more of a presence there. I have the following questions: 1. Do most white people in the UK know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims? Do Sikhs in the UK often get confused with Muslims? 2. It is my understanding that there are several cities/neighborhoods (Leicester, Southall, etc.) with a high density of Sikhs. Is this true? If so, do you think that such communities make it easier for its residents to preserve our religion and culture and in general provide for a nice environment for Sikhs? 3. It seems almost all young Sikhs in the US have parents who were born in India. However, I'm guessing there are a large number of young Sikh adults in the UK whose parents were also born in the UK. To what degree have these people appeared to have preserved their religion and culture? What trends, if any, have you noticed about this generation? 4. This overlaps with my other thread, but how traditional/religious do the younger Sikh women seem to be? How do they feel about Sardars?

Where are you getting your numbers from? How long after the partition is that figure from? I think that a lot of the population transfer may have been going on after the partition had technically occurred. I think you should double-check to make sure you have a figure that comes after the completion of the mass population transfers. In Punjab, virtually all Hindus and Sikhs were forced to move to the Indian side and most Muslims were forced to move to the Pakistani side. So I have a very hard time believing that 40% of Pakistan was still Hindu/Sikh after Western Punjab had basically been "cleansed" of its Hindu/Sikh population. I believe that there was a very sizable Hindu population left in Sindh who were not forced to leave, but I think many of them gradually left by their own choice in the months and years following the partition.

It's not just in Western countries. The clean-shaven preference is already very strong in India and it will only become more prevalent. The only reason one might think it's less of a problem in India is due to the presence of the hordes of beard-trimmers who artificially create an impression that sardars still have a major presence in Punjab. But it's only a matter of time before the trimmers complete the job, so to speak, and stop wearing turbans. You are right that in a relatively short period of time this problem may go away by virtue of the fact that hardly any sardars will be left. Just think about it: 1. Every day, keshdari boys are cutting their hair. On the other hand, how often do clean-shaven boys who have clean-shaven fathers suddenly decide to keep their hair? 2. How often does a girl with clean-shaven brothers and a clean-shaven father marry a sardar? I'm willing to bet it's quite uncommon. By contrast, it is not uncommon at all for a daughter of a sardar to marry a clean-shaven boy (and then have sons who'll grow up to be clean-shaven). In other words, all of the traffic is going in one direction. The number of Singhs is decreasing exponentially. I know many of you will continue to insist that this is okay because anyone who cuts their hair was too weak in the first place, and that only the strong will survive. But it is not very far fetched to conceive of a scenario in, say, 50-100 years where the population of sardars will be so small that they will truly be threatened by extinction. They might literally have trouble finding unrelated women to procreate with. I'm not joking. Then we'll all be able to enjoy a rewritten history where kesh will be portrayed as an outdated practice that was only appropriate for its time, and something that is not required of a Sikh. Maybe the pundits will get their wish and we'll merge back into Hinduism.

Thanks for your reply. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Hindus from different parts of India had to seek the protection of a small minority concentrated in Punjab. But, at least from my understanding, the situation in Punjab was different from most parts of India. Most of India had huge Hindu majorities, but I think Punjab and surrounding areas had large Muslim majorities. Also, when various Muslim groups would invade from the west (such as the Afghans, who invaded after the Mughal empire began to crumble), they went through Punjab. I'm just wondering if the ability to seek whatever protection Sikhs could offer may have been a practical consideration in Punjab. I certainly agree that in most parts of India that would never even be a consideration. I know that the Khalsa armies were filled with people of Hindu origin. I was just curious about why some groups of Punjabis had the tradition of having mixed Sikh/Hindu families while others converted completely to Sikhism. I think a lot of what you said makes sense: many Punjabi Hindus did not view the two religions as being far apart, and becoming Sikh was almost more of a commitment to join the Khalsa army than it was a religious conversion. I did not know that there were any Dhillons who were Hindu. I know that Haryana is filled with Hindu Jats, but I thought that the Jat clans of Punjab were either Muslim or Sikh, and that virtually all Jat clans left in East Punjab after the partition of 1947 were Sikh. By the way, is the practice of having mixed Sikh/Hindu families basically dead now, or is it still going on?

I agree with a lot of what you said. It breaks my heart to see some lovely Punjabi Sikh girls partying, getting drunk, and letting themselves get taken advantage of. I realize adults have the right to do as they choose, but it just makes me wonder why they'd want to be treated as an object when there are plenty of guys out there who would care for them in a much more genuine way. But the problem is not just shamelessness and ignorance and lack of sharam on the part of Sikh women. Most Sikh men are also guilty of the same thing. It doesn't hurt as much, since we are obviously only interested in women as partners, but the majority of Sikh men do not show respect to sardars. The women will be open about only wanting to marry clean-shaven men, but it's the men who will often make ignorant jokes and refer to you as a "baba" or "giani" or something else in a sarcastic manner.

I've always been curious about this practice. I've heard that it was quite common in the Punjabi Khatri community, but I don't know much about it since I'm a Jat. Could you elaborate a bit on the reasoning behind this custom? Was it to maintain good relations with the Sikh community (and thus secure whatever protection the Sikhs could offer)? Was it to take advantage of the preferential recruitment of Sikhs into the military during the British Raj? Was it to recognize a certain level of belief in Sikh principles white still being Hindu? I've heard of all of these explanations. Maybe it was something else?

Haha, I've experienced similar things. When I went to India a few years ago, my beard was pretty short and still growing, and, accordingly, I did not tie it. Yet, some relatives (who also kept their kesh) flipped out and insisted that I tie it, or use fixer or some other method so that it would press up against my face. I'm normally pretty open about people making similar suggestions (we live in a world where appearance matters to a certain extent, let's face it), but I was taken aback by how strongly they felt my appearance was unacceptable, and by the fact that my beard was still quite short in any case. This was the first time I had been to India since I was a baby, and I had expected that people would be happy to see a boy born and raised in America with uncut hair. I was shocked to see that even in India the Sikh sarup has become stigmatized.

It upsets me when people say: "I have the utmost respect for Singhs but I couldn't marry one ..." What does such "respect" even mean? I could walk down the street and find any random stranger who respects a Sikh's right to practice their religion but wouldn't consider marrying one. Basically everyone on the face of the planet who doesn't have outright hatred for Singhs has the same level of "respect" for them that these girls speak of. And it's like they want a pat on the back for having such a view about their own people.

I agree. This is one of the biggest problems in the Sikh sangat everywhere (not just the UK). I know a lot of people aren't too worried about the survival of the Sikh sarup and just figure that religious people will continue to keep it while the less religious will not. But think of how common it is for a sardar to have sons who cut their hair and then think of how rare it is for a man who cuts his hair to have a son who keeps his. In other words, almost all of the traffic is going in one direction. Right now, I'm pretty sure that the majority of Sikhs cut their hair. But most families still have relatives (whether they are grandparents or cousins or whatever) who keep their hair. But if things continue at this rate, in 20 or 30 years that will no longer be true. Almost all families will consist entirely of people who cut their hair, and the only time that they will see men with beards and turbans will be when they visit Harmandir Sahib. This notion that keeping the Sikh sarup is something that only "priests" or "orthodox Sikhs" do (which has already caught on with most people) will then be set in stone. I know that some of you may look at this from a purist's point of view and say that it will be good that only the most devout will remain. But I think that in life we must strive to better ourselves even while we remain imperfect. The fewer Singhs there are, the more difficult it will be for even relatively religious people to maintain the sarup. While someone who would shed the Sikh sarup under certain circumstances may be imperfect, creating an environment that makes it easier for them to keep it will help them take one step closer to the Guru and continue to better themselves.

These are all great points, and I alluded to them in my original post. It is easy sometimes to get upset and blame Sikh women for "selling us out" or "turning their backs on us." It might even feel good sometimes to blow off some steam by blaming them this way. But the fact is, it is counterproductive. It does nothing to address the problem. It also fails to recognize that people are products of their environments. Women have been conditioned to think of beards and turbans as unattractive. They usually see the image you labeled as category 2. As much as I, or some other people on this forum, might look at the Sikh sarup and see the majestic qualities of Guru Gobind Singh or the numerous gallant warriors in our history, it won't matter if women see something different. The question is, how do we improve our "brand"? It would be nice to have several prominent, visible handsome Singhs in the national/international spotlight to give us a better image. But I don't know where we would even start to get such people. Truthfully, we'll need some luck. On the other hand, each of us can do our own small part. We should be vocal about our progressive views. Try to celebrate our religion and beliefs without coming off as judgmental or fundamentalists. Try to encourage rather than condemn. And, shallow as this may sound, we should at least try to be presentable when it comes to our appearances. For instance, walking around still wearing a patka while having a fully-grown beard just looks sloppy (and you see this a lot on college campuses).

This is interesting. I've never been to the UK, but I've always wondered whether it would be a better environment for a Sikh. I thought that the presence of higher density enclaves of Punjabi people (which are rare in the USA where most Punjabi people are pretty spread out) might be nice. Also, do you guys ever get mistaken for Muslims? I'm guessing that the greater history and visibility that Sikhs have in the UK might make such confusion considerably less frequent than in the US. Here, everyone thinks I'm some sort of orthodox Muslim from the middle east and it drives me crazy. Sad to hear that UK jatt girls are stuck up about turbans. Maybe it's worse over there since there are a lot of people whose families have been in the UK for generations. Here, most people came in the last few decades. I guess I know now what we have to "look forward to". Yeah, jatts have it the worst. It's not just jatt girls, but jatt guys also seem to have less respect for kesh than other Sikhs. If I see a guy with a beard and turban, I automatically assume he's not a jatt. I was shocked when I went to India a few years ago (for the first time since I was a toddler), and saw just how prevalent trimming beards and cutting hair was in the pinds. Almost everyone with an uncut beard was an old man. Even my cousin, an otherwise religious guy who doesn't drink, was a trimmer (he was informed by his fiance shortly before their wedding that he looked "like a baba", and he was weak enough to succumb to the pressure and start trimming). It was strange that even in Punjab I was often the only guy in the room with uncut hair.

Note that the phrase "conservative families" doesn't appear in my previous comment. First of all, you can still get an idea from an online profile (from pictures) how conservatively a person dresses , see how much make-up they wear, and, sometimes, if their hair appears to be uncut. If their photos include family photos, you can see if they have sardars in their families. Online profiles also specify whether a person drinks or is vegetarian, etc. Anyway, my comment wasn't restricted to my own experiences. Although I've been largely isolated from the Punjabi community, I do have relatives who have had certain experiences (and my relatives include girls from conservative families who want clean shaven guys, sadly). Why have I, as an "NRI" with a good education been unable to find someone? Part of the problem might be that I haven't yet played the "NRI" card. I've restricted my search to western countries (for reasons noted in previous posts: cultural differences, an inability to get to know potential brides in India, and a fear of dishonest dealings with potential brides in India). I may have to resort to that in the future.

I think you make a lot of good points here. On some level, almost all of us are still influenced by maya. Resisting maya is an ongoing battle for me. On the other hand, no matter how much a man can resist the world of sex, drugs, materialism, etc., he is still going to want some female company. It is just human nature. A man can even resist the desire for the standard "attractive" woman, but to give up the desire for any female companionship period is asking a bit much. Maybe a few can be content in such a situation, but 99.99999% of us will fail to be content, no matter how hard we try. There is a difference between controlling your desire for women and deciding that the best way to live life is give up on finding a companion and living a reclusive life. I think the latter lifestyle is not endorsed in Sikhism. A family life is highly regarded in our faith, and there no recognized utility in becoming some sort of hermit. Let me also say, on a practical level, that if our solution to this problem is simply to say that we should be above the desire for female companionship, it's difficult to see a real future for our religion. I see the points you are making, and I know you are not specifically just talking about me. But let me just say that while I'm not completely above all shallowness, I'm not just "looking to get laid" in my desire for a wife. Also, I haven't been going around trying to meet or talk to your standard "hot" girl wearing a miniskirt. There appear to be plenty of other types of women who aren't interested in sardars. Women who dress more conservatively, or keep long hair (long enough so that it's ambiguous whether they cut it), or abstain from consuming alcoholic beverages, or are vegetarian. Girls whose father and brothers are sardars. I can live with girls who like to dress like the Kardashians not giving me a chance. It's the fact that the set of women unable to consider a sardar is much, much larger than that which makes it difficult to deal with. Anyway, you are right in a lot of ways, and controlling my desire is an ongoing process which I well continue to work on. But I also hope I won't always have to do that alone.

Thank you all for your replies. Many of you have said that the key is displaying confidence, and things of that nature. I certainly agree with this and understand how a person's personality can transcend prejudices others may initially have of them. I also admit (as some of you may have noticed from my original post), that confidence has not always been my strong suit, although I have gotten much better in that area over time. HOWEVER, as I said before, most of the rejection I've encountered over the last year has been through trying to meet women online. In such cases, my personality (both its good and bad points) has not even come into play. My beard and turban alone seem to have made even talking to me a nonstarter for almost everyone. Having said that, I agree with all of you that it would probably be better to get to know people personally in real life so that they can see whatever confidence I do have. The internet is not the best place to meet people. HERE IS THE BIG PROBLEM: how do I meet Punjabi women in real life? I don't have any Punjabi friends (unless you count people I knew as a kid who I haven't kept in contact with over the last decade). My family is basically useless in this matter. I know this sounds extremely strange to most of you, who probably couldn't imagine someone in this kind of situation. But I seriously do not even know where to start.

I'm sorry for embarrassing the forum. Anyway, I think you make a lot of good points here. I think one of the problems with my approach is that it has largely been restricted to the internet (due to the fact that I don't know many Punjabi people and you can't exactly just walk down the street and run into a crowd of Punjabis when their population density is so low here). When someone doesn't see you in person, you can't project all of the intangible qualities (confidence, etc.) that women find attractive. I am going to see what I can do about meeting more Punjabi girls in person.

I see your point, but there are not "loads". Moreover, if you restrict your search to certain subgroups (like jatts), as some unenlightened parents often pressure their children to do, there are very few. You make a legitimate point, and maybe one of these people will be the right one for me, but it doesn't address the larger issue that the number of girls actively seeking sardars is miniscule when compared to the number of girls seeking clean-shaven guys. Now you are just being disrespectful. Do you think I just made this all up for my own amusement? I realize my experience might be a bit unusual and unfortunate, and I realize you might know people who had very different experiences than I did. But it is what it is. California is a very large state and not all Sikh communities are like the ones you probably are thinking of. I'm not from the bay area or central valley or any of those places. I know my experience is unusual. That doesn't make it untrue. I came here to hopefully have a constructive conversation about what I and the community in general could do about what I think is a very serious problem. I welcome and appreciate your input, but to insinuate that I or anyone else is just making mischief is disrespectful. I'm legitimately surprised that you do not seem to think the preference for clean-shaven guys is as prevalent as I've suggested or that it is a serious problem. Go to one of the big matrimonial sites and see how many women are interested exclusively in clean-shaven men as opposed to those interested in sardars. And that doesn't account for all of the girls who do not even specify their clean-shaven preference (since it's not really necessary when most guys these days are clean-shaven anyway).

I have to admit that such an idea (cutting my hair to find a wife and then regrowing it after marriage) has crossed my mind. However, while it sounds like a plan which would allow me to end up with everything I want at the end, I don't think I could bring myself to do it. I can easily imagine myself being punished for such an act by being unable to find a woman even after cutting my hair and stripping myself of my dignity in the process. Going to India is an option that I am going to have to stay open to, I realize. However, it's really not what I want. Growing up in America, you often end up wanting something different out of marriage than you would growing up in India. I want to find someone who I have chemistry with. I think it's difficult to find such a person going to India for a number of reasons: 1. You don't get a chance to spend a lot of time with the person before marriage and see if you click with them. 2. To whatever extent you do get to know the girl, it's hard to tell how sincerely she is presenting herself. A lot of people in India are willing to do anything to come to America, and are unlikely to be open and straightforward about who they are. 3. There are naturally going to be big cultural barriers between a person who has lived in America his whole life and a person who has lived in India her whole life. In any case, if matrimonials are any indication, the clean-shaven preference is just about as prevalent in India as it is here. However, a girl who'd otherwise only be open to a clean-shaven guy might consider a turbanned guy if it allowed her to go to America. It would be sad if I had to rely on that, but that's what it might come to. (Note: I do not intend any of my above comments to be sexist. Men in India are just as dishonest and insincere when it comes to possibly marrying a girl from the west.)

It all depends on which part of California you are from. I'm not from the places you are probably thinking of. When I was growing up, there were a few keshdari kids at the local gurdwara, but the vast majority cut their hair.

I'm not one of those out of shape guys who dresses like he doesn't care. You'll just have to trust me on that (I have nothing to gain by lying about it on a website like this). As I said in my post, most of my efforts have been online. I'm sure there are many things "wrong" with me. I'm not perfect. But nobody would even know about those things if they don't talk to me. I'm pretty sure my inability to find anyone willing to talk to me online is mostly due to having a turban. Where are you from? Perhaps the situation is different wherever you live.

Yeah, there is no way there are more than 30 million of us.