fightingsingh

Regarding your points about nabobs from colonial times. I feel that I can provide a convincing counter argument. Lets take the royal states of Punjab in the Malwa region. Many Sikhs regard the descendants of the Phulkian Misl and princely states such as Patiala to be traitors of the kaum. After all, during the Anglo-Sikh wars when the proud Sikh empire stood up to the British, they chose to side with the British and provide them with support. We lost our kingdom. The dynasty of Maharajah Ranjit Singh was wiped off from the planet. However the dynasties of the treacherous Sikh kingdoms were able to survive. They were rewarded by the British for their services with the usual land and wealth etc. and maintained some nominal powers. Fast forward 100 years to the 1940s. Maharjah Ranjit Singh's dysnasty no longer exists. However, the dynasties of Patiala, Jind, Nabha and Faridkot are now the patrons of Sikhism. They funded schools, sports, gurdwaras, sikh arts, set up regiments in the army (employment opportunities for Sikhs) and much more. Not only that, their kingdoms become hotbeds for Sikh political activity against the British. The jaito morchas and singh sabha movements were accelerated when the Maharajah of Nabha, a known Akali sympathiser, was removed from the throne by the British. All of this was happening on the back of the investments made by treachery, brown-nosing and self-interest. I agree with you that grass roots apnay dont give a toss about polo matches between snobs etc, however, the point that I am trying to make is that progress in our community must take place from the grassroots level and right up to the elite levels. It shouldnt just be dismissed as a meaningless poncy activity that has no bearing or influence on the rest of the community. Who do you think the establishment would rather engage with? A poncy wine tasting uncle tom or a taksali singh in a bana? Or maybe a Singh in SP wearing a tracksuit from sparkhill? Believe it or not but people like Inderjit Singh and Rana do carry alot of influence through the networks that they have developed. Sure, you may not regard links with Prince Charles as having any value but the Royals still do carry influence over certain things. For example, they have always patronised arts and exhibitions and many items of Sikh historical interest are still filed under royal collections. So for someone like Rana, who is trying to do work in the historical/heritage field, these links become very important. Whenever there is a serious community issue eg the motorcycle helmet issue etc, on the grass roots you will have the mobs who will be demonstrating, shouting, ranting and raving. They will be led by more extreme leaders with entrenched views. However, when it comes to actually consulting the community and solving the problems, given the choice, the establishment will choose to deal with the moderate voice of the community over the extremist one. That goes for India as well as in Britain. Of course you need the mobs shouting and extreme sloganeering to apply pressure, but ultimately it is the 'ponces' that the establishment will speak to rather than the extremists. The fact is, brown-nosing works. It is not dignified and it is not is not endearing. For every one charismatic leader with fearless and independent views, there have been ten thousand brown-nosing snakes that have slithered their way into top positions and top jobs. Everyone knows that they are suck ups and two-faced but they still make it to the top and they still get their way. Regarding the point about 'valuable opportunities', I will say that it depends on the individual and their niche area. For Rana, the obvious ones will relate to matters of Sikh heritage, historical artefacts, return of artefacts to our community/India, education of Sikh youth of their history via exhibitions, tours and multimedia etc. I dont know what you make of the Maharajah Duleep Singh statue and Sikh war memorials in Britain? I regard them to be solid hard legacy for Sikhs living in Britain. Indarjit Singh's niche is race relations, interfaith movement and an 'educated and reasoned' Sikh voice in the media. The opportunites and potential gains will vary according to the individual, their interests and speciality.

We need a mixture of representatives and we do have them. The 'networking/coconut' type may not be your cup of tea but we still need them. We need everyone; from the Federation campaigning for Khalistan, hardcore slogan chanting and raising awareness about human rights, the suit and tie networkers for developing relationships with the royals, government and house of lords etc, the Rana types with an interest in Sikh history for preserving and raising awareness about Sikh historical artefacts and putting on exhibitions in the UK, the Sikh Council for providing a voice on issues of common interest such as dastaar searching at airports and kirpan issues, and inner city thugs who kick peoples heads in when required. Everyone has their place. ' All it does is make other weak minded sheep amongst us aspire to be similarly poncy, so that they too can 'uplift' themselves in the shadows of other's perceived greatness. ' Dont think there is too much danger of the above. At the end of the day people in certain situations will do what is required in order to play the game so that their agenda is fulfilled. If that means they have to play to the ruling classes, then so be it. Its not for everyone. However, to completely shun those who engage in this kind of activity would be missing valuable opportunities, in my opinion. Incidentally, Muslims are a good community to learn form. They wield alot of power in the UK. Partly because of their numbers and partly because they know how to play the game. They have infiltrated all the main political parties, councils and institutions all over the UK. They have the ability to portray a moderate facade and demonstrate willingness for integration on one hand, but still carry a strong sense of who they are, their religion, their identity and their values.

Agreed. It is encouraging to hear of the mutual respect and cooperation between Federation and Anglo-Sikh Heritage trail. Hopefully the source of the story will come out soon and put and end to any speculations. It is important for all of us to support each other and to put panthic progress over individual ambition.

This seems like an unfair assessment that you have made of Rana. He did the crime and did the time. He has atoned himself by throwing himself into activities that will benefit the Sikh community. He has never projected himself as a 'Sikh leader' as many have suggested on this thread. He has simply been working in a niche area that he finds interesting namely joint historical relations between Sikhs and the British. However, the Sikh Community has benefited in many ways from his work. The Duleep Singh project and statue unveiling in 1993 onwards have helped to increase the network between the Sikh Community and the British. After all, it is in our interest that our shared Anglo-Sikh heritage is recognised and remembered. It is also in our interest that networks are formed with the government and with royalty. It is only through these formed networks that other agendas can be driven. Somebody has to do this kind of work and they have to be suited to it. Dont get me wrong, given his background, Rana would be ill-suited as Jathedar of Akal Takhat Sahib or even president of a gurdwara. However, when it comes to preservation of Sikh history, heritage and networking with middle/upper class goray, then Rana is pretty good at his job. After all, he was invited by Prince Charles to attend the boat party. Why should he not have gone? Why should he continue to shun the limelight because of his past convictions which are now 26 years old? It seems like an unfair burden to put on someone. From zoltansingh's post, it is clear that certain members of the Federation were not happy with Rana partaking in the roles that he was. There is a sense of jealousy in their statements. Perhaps because he was in 'media facing roles' and they were not? Perhaps because he was being photographed with royalty and politicians and they were not? Rana said 'there is a very serious debate and struggle within the Sikh community as to how it deals with the Government and who represents it.' And this, in my mind, is what this is all about. This is simply a classic power struggle between Sikhs as to who is top dog and who has the power to make his/her voice heard. Clearly, certain individuals in the Federation believe that this should be them and not Rana, and so have gone to the press with his previous convictions in a bid to humiliate him and destroy his credibility. However, in doing so, they have also damaged the Sikh image in the media, embarrassed us all and damaged the work done by the Anglo-Sikh heritage trail and the in-roads made into top circles, which could benefit our whole community. Of course it is possible that it is not certain individuals in the Federation. It could be someone else with similar motives. This is just my theory.

I find it very disappointing how his past has been brought to the fore at such a time. The crime is over 26 years old and he has served his sentence. I'm not condoning what he did. However, whoever has chosen to go to the press with this, you can bet your bottom dollar that they have a personal vendetta against Harbinder Singh and chosen a time when it would cause maximum humiliation. You can bet your bottom dollar that whoever has done this is from our community. It sickens me less that Harbinder Singh has been personally humiliated in this manner, it sickens me more that this myopic individual has not considered the negative effects this will have on our community, our image and on the Anglo-Sikh Heritage Trail , which, regardless of whether or not you like Harbinder Singh, has made great in-roads in terms of Anglo-Sikh relations and preservation of Sikh heritage within the Uk . I am also disgusted at all the negative texts and facebook posts being circulated basically bashing and slating Harbinder Singh and cementing the humiliation. It shows the mentality of our community, we love drama and gossip and we love to attack and drag back our own. Has anyone in our community stood up to say anything in his defence?

You probably would be to be fair. People will almost certainly think that you are a namdhari and when you tell them that you are not, they will most likely think it strange as to why you are wearing a 'namdhari pagh' when you arent one. Obviously there is nothing wrong with changing your dastaar style but you can expect to get some stick for it from family and friends.... we live in a judgemental world where people have already created caste and jathebandi connections with their style of dastaar. Now to be completely honest, alot of mainstream Sikhs do not like namdharis so I suspect that you wont make lots of friends by wearing a dastaar that supposedly represents their group.

yeh again not heard about the two dastaar thing by Guru Hargobind Sahib ji bro. Where did you hear/read that? When you say old singhs wouldnt wear a dastaar that would come off easily, are you referring to pre- Maharajah Ranjit Singh time or Maharajah Ranjit Singh's time? Some of the photos of Singhs I sent in the link are in the time period less than 10 years after the anglo-sikh wars so I would be surprised if dastaar styles had changed much since then.

Not sure where they were taken from Singh. I havent heard about the Afghan thing before

Yeh I agree with you. Not sure to be honest. They probably used to come off alot in battle etc. Historical accounts that I have read from anglo-sikh wars and from the world wars indicate that they used to come off a lot. Not ideal but I guess thats just how it is. The damala is probably the most secure style but I have seen Singhs damalas come off loads of times, both in fights and just messing around wrestling etc.

Dumalas were the style of dastaar worn by the nihangs and not the main style of dastaar used by everyone else. The Kooka style of dastaar is most likely just an old style of tying the dastaar that was worn by the originial Singhs that formed the Namdharis. See below at pictures of Sikh soldiers which are around 155 years old and would almost certainly have also served in the armies of Maharajah Ranjit Singh and the Khalsa Raj. Most of the dastaars bear no resemblance to damala or boonga styles worn by Nihangs and nor do they bear any resemblance to modern Nok patiala styles. Some do look simliar to the kooka style as well: http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12134 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12138 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12129 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12135 http://lh6.ggpht.com...252520PHOTO.jpg http://www.sikh-hist...ts/1860-hod.jpg http://www.christies...7/d2534735r.jpg http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/indiancavalry/hodsons1858.htm

who are all those hyped up youth swearing at the camera, wearing face masks? This doesnt look like the protesting outside the police station on the night of the meeting?

totally agree with the above

well said

Yes bro. I'm against that. Our ancestors lived in a different time and in different circumstances. They were fighting for survival. We are not. Shere Punjab and other such organisations disappeared in the 80s and 90s because those sort of on-street tactics simply did not work. Sikhs would get smashed, muslims would get smashed, its just an on-going cycle of violence that does not get anywhere. It just creates a community divide. Young Singhs get criminal records, get sent down, put in hospital and/or even killed. All for what? Cos they want to play heroes and act out their kharkoo fantasies by saving some slutty loose punjabi girl that has been bedding muslim guys behind her parents back and has a bit of a rough domestic? Sorry for sounding like a 'papu' but I wouldnt even get out of bed for that and I wouldnt risk my neck, my family or my job by getting physical with someone over it. This Punjabi attitude about controlling all the women in our community and saving their honour is not really applicable in the UK. All the girls here are fiercely independent. Most of the time, if you tell a girl to stop hanging around with a muslim guy/gora/kala, they will stick two fingers up at you and tell you to stop interfering and mind your own business. I have come across a Singh who returned a girl, who ran away with a muslim, back to her parents and ended up get charged and imprisoned for kidnapping, and neither the girl nor her family stuck up for him in court. Clearly, I am older and more wiser than you are. I can tell that from your style of speech and your attitude. I have seen what happened in the 80s and 90s. I remember attending a demonstration in the Midlands about a similar case to this one about 10 years ago. There was a big meeting in the council building and do you know what the Muslim leader stood up and said to the Sikhs? 'Sardar ji, please stop trying to malign our whole community over this. If anything, you should be controlling and educating the girls in your community to stop doing this sort of thing!' He hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, if we educate our girls and raise awareness of Sikhi, we can reduce this problem. If you are so much in favour of militant action and forming street gangs like Shere-Punjab, then you should go ahead and set them up. The problem with you youth nowadays is that you want someone else to set it up for you. You go to gurdwareh and ask them to set it up and provide funds for these kind of organisations to be set up. Why should the majority community that is peaceful set up and support a violent street gang? At the end of the day, anyone who is going to do anything on the streets will just go ahead and do it. They dont need anyones permission or support. Its like when people used to come and make complaints to Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale about police injustices etc, he used to say why are you coming to tell me this and expecting me to do something about it. Did Satwant Singh or Beant Singh ask for anything to be set up and ask anyones permission when they shot Indira Ghandi? Why dont you do something yourself? If you feel so passionate about such activties, then you and and your mates should get together and do something. The smaller the group the better. You dont need t-shirts, wrist bands and flyers to advertise who you are, and you certainly dont need to burden law-abiding Sikhs with your activity.

Best way to deal with this issue is to ensure that the family is supported and that pressure is put onto the police so that this case is dealt with through legal channels and justice is served via the law of the land. On going work via the Sikh Awareness Society and other groups to raise awareness about grooming cases and parchaar of Sikhi targeted towards young girls must also continue. However, any talk of reprisals and forming gangs to combat muslims etc would be a mistake. Anyone preaching those sorts of views should be quickly isolated and ignored by the majority of the community. Most Sikhs in Luton want to go about their daily business without gang warfare in the streets and inflamed tensions. We can make this situation into whatever we want and take it to whatever level we choose. No doubt there is a minority of hot-headed Sikhs who will be baying for blood and are looking for any excuse to fight with muslims. However, anything other than lobbying for justice and raising awareness in the community would be destructive for our community and for community relations.

Round 1 Round 2 Round 3

On the flipside, alot of Punjabi Sikh men are chauvinists with a warped sense of honour. They have huge egos and sense of male dominance which is incompatible with modern life full stop... There is no harm in men becoming more sensitive and getting in touch with some of their feminine side. I am not talking about their appearance, more in terms of their attitude... being caring, understanding, supportive and understanding other peoples needs. I have got no problem with Sikh men having the above qualities... I dont want our people to be a bunch of highly testosterone driven, arrogant, insensitive jocks that behave like animals.... Sure as the original poster pointed out, some of these attributes do attract women who may go for alpha male type guys. However, there is more to life than attracting women, you also have to maintain your relationships and be a nice, good person.