West London Singh

I'm guessing we're talking about Harjap here yeah yeah ? Agree with you. Saw him doing the paper review on Sky News not long ago. Man's a natural. If only he had the good looks to go with his personality he'd be top dog in the broadcasting world right now.

Dal Singh, you are without the most hate-filled bigot on this forum. Blinded by hatred. 'Singh Sabha' are Jatt Gurdwaras you say uh ? Ummm.....and how does the fact that one of the UK's largest and most influential 'Singh Sabha' Gurdwaras in the UK (Hounslow) has a 80% Khatri, Tarkhan and Arora president and committee make-up despite the sangat being majority Jatt fit in with this mad theory of yours ? How does the fact that in Southampton, with 2 big Gurdwaras across the road from each other, it is the 'Singh Sabha' one that is full of a mixed sangat of Jatts, Tarkhans and Bhatras whereas it is the Nanaksar one that seems to be overwhelmingly jatt fit in with your theory ? Re-read everything I said in the previous message. Here it is again. The question is still unanswered and my promise still stands. Give me the name and address of a 'Jatt' Gurdwara and I shall go there and set myself on fire in protest.

Forgive me OP, but you seem to be confusing Sikhism with other religions. You seem to be confusing Gurdwaras with Franciscan Monastries. You're confusing the holy places of the Sikhs with that of the Christian Cathedrals or Bhuddist sanctuaries. I suggest you go back to basics. Start all over again. This time, when you approach things approach it from the position of a Sikh and not that of a Christian. You're using a Christian's position of what a place of worship is and mistakingly imposing that foreign ideal on the Sikhs. This is a very stupid thing to do. Lets say, for example, I decided today to join a discussion on a Christian forum and ask them how they discrecrate their Churches so much by taking their hats off when they go inside. See that's me approaching another religion by imposing my own religion's ideals. They would, in turn, think me to be an incredibly stupid person for doing so. Start over my friend. Start over.

Unbelievable. The bigotry....hatred and resentment of some here. What exactly is a 'Jatt Gurdwara' ? I've asked time and again here for those of you here that keeping using the term to give a very short list of the names and addresses of these so-called 'Jatt Gurdwaras'. Give me the names and I promise I will personally go to them and set myself on fire in protest. The 'list' never comes because none exist. None. I mentioned in one of my messages above that the jatt's only crime is that he is large in numbers.....that he is the majority. The other Sikh groups feel intimidated by this......they feel threatened by this. None of that is the fault of the jatt. When, in any given area the jatts are 90% of the local Sikhs it stands to reason that the sangat of the Gurdwara will be 90% jatt. That does NOT make it a 'Jatt Gurdwara' though. Jatts never have and never will do what bhatras, ramgharias and lobana's have done and make their own gurdwaras with their own caste identity on the name of the gurdwara and have constitutions that state that only members of that 'caste' can become members. Jatts have never once done this..........The others do. And yet in this strange upside down world we live in many of you are spewing venom against jatts. :wow: Its a crazy crazy world. Lets take Delhi for example. Do you not think we jatt Sikhs don't feel a bit out of place in the Gurdwaras there when 95% of the sangat are either Khatri or Bhatra ? Do you not think it becomes difficult for us to become committee members and presidents of the Gurdwaras there when we are the only ones that speak in a very different dialect and tone ? But we are not silly and we are not full of bitterness and resentment. We know it is not the fault of the Khtri and the Bhatra that they are there in Delhi in massive numbers and us jatts in so few. We know the local Gurdwaras in Delhi are not full of khatris and bhatras because they both had a cunning plan to get together on Sunday mornings and intimidate the jatts. Now I ask you all again........Many of you keep mentioning this thing called a 'Jatt Gurdwara'. I dare any of you to write me a short list of just a few of these 'Jatt Gurdwaras'. You love to mention them so now tell us who and where they are. This is the 3rd time on this thread I'm asking so I'm gonna make it very easy for you all now as you're obviously finding it very difficult to do: Just one. That's all I'm asking from you now. We can all easily make a big list of the names and addresses of thousands of Ramgharia, Lobana and Bhatra Gurdwaras that not only display their caste names but also officialy restrict membership to sangat of that particular 'caste'.......but can you name even one 'jatt' example of the same. Have Jatts ever sunk that low ? Go on.........Give me a short list of 1 ..................

Well obviously I haven't done a survey of Sikh men in America by hanging around public toilets and taking a peek. Regarding your message above, you see thing about Americans is that you should never take what they say about themselves too seriously. Because they tend to know so little about the rest of the world they are not too good at comparison. Comparison wise.....the American rate of circumcision today is at an unbelievably high level compared to the UK, Continemtal Europe and even Latin America. Like imprisoning its young and executing its citizens....it's practices in this area are more akin to sub-Saharan Africa. So......if you're comparing your circumcision rate today with that of Pakistan then yes, I suppose you're right, your rate is not all that high. But......if you're comparing America and Canada's circumcision rate with that of the rest of the western world than trust me.......your rate is unbelievably high. But....if you're right and the circumcision stopped in the 1950's I strongly suggest you urgently contact every major book publisher and every medical researcher.....for they are still showing you to have high 3rd world levels.

Unbelievable ? No. don't be silly. Of course its not unvbelevable, especially considering how my message about him just a few days ago stated quite clearly how he is probably not a bad sort.....just one of those people that is addicted to appearing on TV and the radio. On another thread (the one about diversity in the UK I think) I also stated, when asked, that in areas of the UK where there are equal numbers of bhatra Sikhs and non-bhatra Sikhs, there is absolutely zero social interaction between the bhatras and other Sikhs, with the non-bhatra Sikhs getting on better and mixing more with Pakistanis and Hindus and the bhatra siikhs very much mixing more with and feeling more affinity with the white council estate chavs. I think perhaps, people here should pay more attention to what I say......there is great logic to it. ITV......mind-numbing dating shows.....mad shameless desire to appear on TV inna Jeremy kyle style. Everything about it suggests council estate chav mentality. Anyway.....this is what I said just a few days ago on the other thread. So never mind the BBC radio show, we will surely be seeing him soon being dunked on the Graham Norton show, taking a dna test on Jeremy kyle and pretending to be looking to buy a new house on Location Location Location. This is what I said last week :

Good grief !!! :wow: How does a man get to be so bitter and so hateful ? I've said it before and I'll say it again.......There is something very dark and sinister about Dal Singh. Where that evil inside him comes from god only knows but what we do know is that it seriously clouds his ability to read simple sentences and absorb simple facts. Here he is associating jatts with alcohol even though people like chamars and churhe have an alcohol problem a thoiusand times worse than jatts. Here he is associating smack and other drugs with jatts even though it is the urban youth in Punjab (where the Jatts are a tiny tiny minority) who have the biggest drug problem. Here he is saying each and every jatt son and daughter in Punjab deserves to be unemployed and without a future because of the sins of their fathers (great great grandfathers in fact). Here he is refusing to acknowledge how the positive discrimination quotas given to the obc status people are fundamentally unfair. Funny, never seen him call for positive discrimination quotas in the UK. Strange, innit ? .....the way he's in favour of it when it comes to Punjab but not when it might affect his own children in the UK. He calls it a 'taste of their own medicine'. We can take it then, that he is regularly to be seen on speakers corner in Hyde Park calling for all white british children to be denied the right to a job ? No, of course you won't see him do that. He's not that honest and not that consistent. He's like a schizophrenic part-time hate-mongerer. When he's around polite British society he puts on an act of being mild mannered and liberal. But mention the word 'Jatt' and oooooooh matron....something inside him stirs. Not nice emotions mind......oh no......something dark and evil stirs inside of him. All the venom....the pent up bitterness...the hatred, it all comes out in the open. What a truly sick and disgusting human being.

See. We're back to square one. Your're prejudices are stopping you from being able to read simple passages and understand simple facts. Jatt Sikhs have been demanding an end to the obc status system for some time......NOT DEMANDING it. They have been calling for an end to the positive discrimination quota system because the result of it was to ensure that a jatt Sikh child never has the hope of a job or future. You need to try and get your head 'round this simple fact. Here you are now telling me you disagree with positive discrimination but I don't remember seeing you supporting the jatts in their call for it's abolition. Nobody listened. And yet here you here thinking the jatts have wanted obc status 'for some time now', despite the fact that you've been given the facts time and again on this very thread. Like I said.....nothings gotten through thus far and nothing will. Your mind is too clouded with anti-jatt prejudices to be able to comprehend simple facts. And its a good observation Daily Mail. Whilst the fact that you're from Hoshiarpur is unique in Punjab because it is the one district where the Sainis make up a large proportion of the farming landholders as opposed to the dominance of the jatts in the other districts, my experience in the villages of jilla Jalandhar is that the Julahe mix incredibly well with the jatts. Amazingly well, in fact. In many ways, the line between the Jatts - Sainis and Julahe is very blurred these days.

You are either wearing blinkers or are plain making things up. Never...in my entire life, have I ever ever come across a 'jatt' Gurdwara. The trouble is, because the jatts are the majority, the other groups naturally feel overwhelmed. They find that overwhelming feeling difficult to deal with so develop a misguided feeling of being sidelined. The jatts only crime then, is that he is large in numbers. That's not his fault. Judging by what you and others here have written you obviously have something like 500 examples of 'Jatt Gurdwaras'. What I'd like you to do then is this : Narrow your long list of 500 down to 3. Just give us the names of 3 'Jatt' Gurdwaras. Tell us their names and address' and we will sort it out. Go on son......................just 3. That's all I'm asking you for ......... And "beating the crap out of a poor churha" ???? :stupidme: See this is when I know how little you actually know about Punjab these days. With the mass emigration of jatt Sikhs from rural Punjab the situation there has, for at least the last 2 decades, been exactly the opposite of what you said. Ask anyone from rural Punjab these days and they'll tell you that the one golden rule for all is that you should never ever....NEVER.....pick a fight with a chura. Nobody ever does because within the hour the entire bridarari of local churhe will gather for a mass brawl. It is churhe that regularly "beat the crap" out of others, rightly or wrongly, in rural Punjab these days. So....anyway......go on then. You make out that jatt gurdwaras are as common as bees on a summers day.........so just give us a simple list of 3 ?

See, that sums up how everything you say is based on your own misguided prejudices. You mention alcoholism and associate it with jatts without knowing how the chamars and churhe have an alcoholism problem in rural Punjab that makes the jatts look like salvation army temperance activists. You mention Punjab's drug problem and foolishly associate it with jatts without knowing how the drug problem in Punjab is at its greatest among the urban youth. Being rather ignorant of grass-roots realities you idiotically assume the situation in the cluster of villages on the Pakistan border is replicated across the whole of Punjab. It is not. The dire situation among the urban youth, however, is replicated in every single city, town and kasba of Punjab. In case you didn't know, the jatt Sikhs are a tiny insignificant community in all those places. Hell, lets take the issue of smoking cigarettes for example. You come out of rural Punjab and enter the towns and cities and you see something that you will never ever, in a million years, see among the jatt Sikhs : A Sikh smoking cigarettes. :omg: If you could, I'm sure you'd find a way of blaming that on the jatts also. You truly are blinded by ignorance and motivated by either hatred or a misguided desire for revenge. Nobody here expects Dal Singh to see things reasonably, but you, time and again...repeatedly, you have been told that the reason jatts are after the obc status is because the situation as it is today, means that their children are denied the chance of any future. You say you are against the positive discrimination system that is causing this in Punjab and yet you fail to notice how jatts have been complaining about it for years now. Nobody has listened. In the meantime, the sons and daughters of the jatts have been left jobless. That, and that only, is what this is all about. When the jobs, education and positions in Punjab are reserved for those with obc status the jatts have no choice but to want it for their children. Now........when is the last time you came across a 'jatt' Gurdwara ? You see others shamelessly doing it all the time and yet you reserve your criticisms for the jatts ? :wow: Whens the last time you saw entry into the committee of a normal Gurdwara restricted to jatts ? And yet every single Ramgharia, Bhatra and Chamar Gurdwara in the country has it shamelessly written into their constitution that entry will be open only for members of that caste. Yet you reserve your criticisms for the jatts ? :blink2: If you could, I'm sure you would blame the jatts for the Great Fire of London. Go to Punjab........See the realities. Chamars look down on Chuhre so much that they won't even drink from the same vessel as them. The Julahe and Sainis look down on the chamars so much that they won't even sit at the same table as them.The Khatris look down on the jatts so much that they go out of their way to marry their sons and daughters to Hindus rather than jatt Sikhs. And yet all you can do is blame the jatts for everything and anything. I seriously feel sorry for many of you with such sad inferiority complexes.

That is quite possibly the most ignorant and casteist thing I have ever read on this site. Made worse by the fact that just a few messages ago it was explained that the current system of quotas reserved for those with obc status means that, in Punjab, there is a zero to 1% of a jatt Sikh ever finding a job. Ever. Wow !! :omg: A few hours after someone here made such disgustingly casteist remarks about jatt Sikhs.....we find that the mods/admins have not only allowed the hateful message to stand, they love it so much they've even kept the thread open. Now how long do you think the admins here would allow any thread to remain unlocked if something similar to the above was said about any Sikhs from non-jatt groupings ? Be honest now. You all know as well as I do that it would be locked instantly. If there's one thing this thread has taught us about non-jatt Sikhs it is that their insecurity complex seriously clouds their ability to read. Time and again they've been told how the current obc status system in Punjab means that a jatt Sikh has virtually no chance of landing a job no matter how highly educated they are. The only chance of a jatt Sikh in Punjab making a future for his children is to secure obc status. With obc status comes a guaranteed job.....A guaranteed educational place......A guaranteed low pass mark needed in academic exams.....The chance to become a sarpanch........etc etc. Tell me Daily Mail, do you detest your own children so much that you would willingly let them rot in a current flawed system rather than try to ensure their good future ? The anti-jatt sentiments expressed on this thread are mind-blowingly ignorant to say the least.

Sikhs indeed should not be circumcised. That is the reason why you will never hear the subject being mentioned by the actvist Sikhs born in America that otherwise seem to love nothing more writing 'sikh' related issues. The reason they are quiet on the issue is because most of them are circumcised. Whilst circumcision is extremely rare (other than for religious reasons) here in the UK and all the other European countries and places such as Australia and New Zealand, it is the norm in America.....and, to a smaller extent, fairly common in Canada. In America, it is the norm for doctors, surgeons and mid-wives to reccommend circumcision. Thus most males (whether Sikh, Christian, Hindu or Jew) are circumcised. Most of the so called 'intellectual' and academic Sikh articles published these days emanate from America. There is a very good reason why the subject of circumcision never comes up.

Absolutely correct. Zero to 1% chance of any jatt sikh in Punjab to land a job no matter how highly qualified they are. The public sector jobs are nearly all reserved for those groups with obc status and the private sector industrialists loathe to employ what they see as jatt boots, giving the jobs instead to members of their own fraternity. Zero chance of a job. And then there's education. So many of the good places reserved for those with the obc status and even when they get a place the ones with obc status only need half the required marks in order to get a pass. Promotion ? You need obc status. Wanna be a sarpanch ? obc status will help alot. obc status should be scrapped. But if its gonna exist than you've gotta get on it if you wish any future for your children.

I'm neither a doctor nor am I circumcised so all I'm doing is pointing out some things because I've noticed how nearly all of the news articles that appear about Punjab's AIDS problem lay the blame exclusively on heroin addiction. Basically, what we keep seeing is lazy journalism and it leaves the reader knowing only half the story. Like I said, I'm no doctor but I often find medical journals pointing out how a circumsised man is statisticaly far less likely to get AIDS, and thus far less likely to pass it on. Look, lets take those 5 ancient central asian trade route cities : Amritsar, Lahore, Peshawar-Kabul, and Tehran. All 5 of them have a bad drug problem. If people think the problem is bad in Amritsar they should visitTehran and other Iranian cities. The problems there are far far worse than Amritsar. Female and male heroin addicts everywhere, openly shooting up in the streets. Pakistani cities too have a problem of injecting adults far worse than Punjab. So....it is reasonable for one to ask oneself why it is just Punjab that has developed an AIDS problem to coincide with its heroin problem. When the other 4 cities mentioned have a worse injecting junkie problem surely their AIDS problem should be worse ? At this point, it is perfectly reasonable to remind oneself that of the 5 cities 4 are full of circumcised men and 1 is not. Is it just a co-incidence that it is just the one city without circumcision that has the AIDS problem ?

Yes. What you say is 100% true. And....without evening talking about how nearly of all the AIDS in Punjab actually got there in the first place by way of Punjabi truck drivers and their 'unprotective sex' in 'Inidia'......let us take this to a deeper level. This is dangerous territory for me because precedence has shown that either threads get locked or I get banned once I go deep. Mostly this is because the moderators feel I have veered way too far from the thread. Alas...deep indeed I shall go: In a strange and twisted way there is actually great merit to everything 'innergear' says'. Sometimes I think he is mocking us. He conducts his conversations deliberately with the mode of comminication today and then sits back and watches as we philstines mock Newton and Galileo. Innergear...and his ghetto text from a smart fone......makes a point which is one of the most religious points ever made here: Foreskin : the value and non-value therein. Heroin. that is what is killing Punjab. It comes from Pakistan. It gets to Paksitan not far fr ahead in Afghanistan. The streets and rural villages of Pakistan and Afghanistan and the other side of the border in Iran. Lets start with the other side of the border in Iran. It has a heroin addiction rate that makes Punjab look like a nun's dormitory. Iran's female drug addiction rate is 5000% more than Punjab. Their AIDS rate ? A hundred million per cent less than Punjab. Afghanistan ....where the drugs come from ? A drug addiction population, including women and young girls, that compared to rural Punjab makes Punjab look ike a Conservative women's monthly meeting. Pakistan ? Their AIDS rate makes Punjab look like Dante's inferno. So why is this ? Medical and scientific journals have stated that circumsicion reduces the chances of such sex diseases by more han 1000%. One thousand per cent. Now thats a big number. Does the horrific Punjab sex disease rate not prove these scientific reports right ? If not.....How do you explain why Punjab, having a far lower IVD rate than its 3 neighbours to the north, has an AIDS problem five milllion per cent higher than them ?????

I'll be quite honest, I've never read anything you've ever written. I'm not even sure who you are. What I said in this thread refers to nothing more sinister than an honest and intellectual attempt at a debate about fate and the virtues or otherwise of going to bed early and raising early. Drank beers but stopped purely because I felt I should be setting the right example to all of my sisters., rather than for purely religious reasons. Should you not be applauding me for this ? I did not have a go at a fellow human being. It was Dal Singh. I'm not 'studying' Law. I graduated with a law degree over 7 years ago. Since then I've also done my masters. What I'm doing today is 'research'. If I had aspirations to earn good money whilst sitting in an office with a suit on don't you think I would have gone in that direction by now ? I am nothing if not consistent Gurdsingh. Yes my parents were born in London. Thats not a new fact. One of my grandparents, like a hellava lot of others that arrived in that era, sailed via Karachi and a false Pakistani passport. What exactly is confusing you about this subject ? Uh ? :blink2: What are you even trying to say ? When and how has my pend ever changed ? Daily Mail : Yeah I take that back fella. It was a bit harsh and un-called for. Just got a bit frustrated how the very simple and reasonable point I was making was not getting through. The Germans occupied France. That didn't mean the French became German. The Chinese occupy Tibet. A Tibetan has to therefore go to 'China' to get married to a Tibetan girl from a village there. Does that mean he now has to turn his back on his nation and call himself Chinese ? Is a man's nation determined by what is in his heart or by what illegal occupying force occupies his land at that particular moment ? Just because the British came and artificialy incorporated my Punjab into some foreign nation called India it doesn't make it so. Just because, in 1947, the Indians tricked, lied and deceived their way into occupying my Punjab it doesn't make it so. You go ahead and accept the occupiers as your masters but you'll never get that from me. Now tell me......when was I ever Indian ? As a Punjabi, spent thousands of years as the eastern-most, and richest, province of the Persian Empire. Totally seperate to the concept that was India to the south. Before the British finally annexed Punjab I was of the Sikh Kingdom of Punjab. Since that day, my family have continously been British subjects never once being present in the post '47 nation. Tell me my friend, how....in either spiritual or physical form....have I ever been 'Indian' ? Does the fact that India has been occupying my land since '47 mean that I have to now hold up my hands and admit defeat of the soul ? Is this whole concept based on the amount of time a foreign force occupies someone's land ?

So in the end, I got caught up in the hysteria and actually viewed the footage of him on the show. Felt weird, watching an ITV show , but its nice to sometimes see what the poor uneducated masses watch. Never seen this 'Singh' before in my life. Was expecting a good looking chappie. Was shocked to say the least. This Singh does not need excessive criticism in my opinion. What he needs is a period of self-reflection and a large mirror. After watching the clip, I found myself asking myself this question : What makes a person who is quite clearly more than a little bit ugly appear on a show whose whole premise is superficial attractiveness and beauty ? After careful analysis I have concluded that we will often see him on TV shows. I have no doubt he is already on the waiting list for Bargain Hunt and Come Dine with Me. He is simply one of those serial contestants on TV. Those same people that appear often on a variety of shows. They live for their 15 minutes....but being addicted to the limelight they try and prolong it into several different 15 min segments. These people have a virtue in that they do not get embarrassed. The downside to that though is that they do not feel shame. Being in the limelight is the one and only objective. This week, has probably been the greatest week of his life. I'm sure he's loving every minute of this.

I think you've got psychiatric issues Daily Mail. Why the hell are you writing all that stuff about India on my behalf ? You might as well write about Cambodia or the Congo. They're all foreign nations to me. I'm a Sikh. My family have never been Indian and never will. I really couldn't give a monkeys about its culture etc. I am a Sikh. My culture is complete and utter 100% gender equality. You can stick your Indian culture and any lectures about it where the sun don't shine fella. You most clearly cannot see the point I was trying to make if that is what you think I said. My points were entirely to do with questioning fate.......Whether or not our actions determine what happens to us. My point was entirely a philosophical one about deeds and non-deeds. My question was entirely a spiritual one asking whether or not the Sikh value of going to bed early and raising early has any merit in it. Sikhi says there is but you all seem to be implying that there is no de-merit in doing the complete opposite. My question.......My point then, was obviously way beyond your level of understanding. Given the totally irrelevent lecture you've just given me about some foreign country that means nothing to me it is clear you were not even close to understanding what I said and didn't say. This whole thing is getting silly now. I'm quite clearly trying to have a conversation here with a group of nitwits.

When did I say 'she was asking for it' ? :wow: I'm simply going deeper than your mind is able to go. I'm asking is it therefore a lie that there is value in going to sleep early in order to rise at dawn ? It is something by which I have lived my whole life. I'm 29 now. Thats a lot of years. I'm asking, on a philisophical level, that if it is said there is a value in doing something then surely it stands to reason that there is de-merit in doing the opposite ? Or is this whole Sikhi thing just one big lie ? I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I've always said here I'm more of a political actvist than a spiritualist. But I am a Sikh....i.e a scholar...a learner....a perpetual seeker of answers.

Daily Mail. Read through all the comments I have ever made in the 5 or so years I have been posting here. I have been consistent in saying time and again how the Sikhi my parents brought me up with espouses 100% gender equality. No difference at all between a man and a woman. I've consistently gone on the threads after threads that appear about Sikh girls marrying muslims etc and I've always defended the girl. I've always stated that if we Sikh men want Sikh women to behave in a certain way then we should lead by example. I've always stated here that this is how my dad has lived his life and this is how I live my life. The men in my family have always believed that if we go out at night....have girlfriends.....drink alcohol etc, then our mother and sister have every right in the world to do the same. That is why no man in my family has ever done things that we wouldn't want our female family members to do. By all means disagree with me for what I have said in this thread but please try and show a little more comprehension than Mehtab Singh. He was not able to understand this point so turned into a 'defending women's rights' thing falsely painting me as the type of man that wants to keep women chained to the sink. He did that in order to gain support for his criticism of me. You don't need to lower yourself to that level. You're better than that. I'll ask my question again, and this time, with you knowing where I stand on gender equality, I hope you can ignore the un-called for spite : Bearing in mind the fact that Sikhi prescribes that good things will happen to those that go to bed early and rise at amrit vele is it not reasonable therefore to say that bad things will likely happen to those that are out frolicking in the streets with members of the opposite sex at late hours ?

You sick and twisted souls that sanction capital murder. 90% of those Indians in Delhi demonstrating against the rape are almost as guilty as the rapist brutes themselves. These demonstrating Indians are the same ones that have been telling Sikhs to shut up every time justice for the 10,000 sikh women that were gangraped in just one night in that city is brought up. These demonstrating Indians are the same ones telling the victims of 10,000 rapes in just one night in one city to 'move on and forget about it'. These demonstrating Indians are the same ones that look back at the events of 1984 with pride and whenever they encounter Sikh activists they say "we taught you people a lesson in 1984" i.e gangraped 10,000 of your mothers, sisters and daughters. and if you don't stop demonstrating "we'll teach you people a lesson again". Don't fall to the base level of these disgusting Indians dear Sikhs. They are looking to hang the rapists because they don't want to look in the mirror and see how culpable each of themselves are for the deed. Don't bring yourselves down to their level. Be consistent. If you're supporting state killings in another country then have the conviction to call for official state killings in your own country. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander eh? As Sikhs you should occupy a much higher plane than these common Delhiwalas.

Who the hell said anything about 'women' ? :wow: I'm a man. Every single example I gave was about myself and how I never did such and such. You have a knack for killing great conversations Mehtab Singh. This is not the first time you've appeared on a thread where lots of people are having a thoughtful debate with each other....bouncing ideas off each other......and killed it. Stone dead. :surrender: You do this all the time. Whatever the opposite is of the midas touch you've got it. I no longer have the will or desire to say another word on this subject. Please don't expect me to.

Every thread starts with a central premise about something. That single premise spawns other issues. Its how conversations work. Not just now but since the first conversation many thousands of years ago. Unlike you , Mehtab Singh, most of us are not two dimensional in character. The wider narrative behind what the geezer Asaram said is that we also have our own responsibility for things that happen to us. The whole world spending hours, days and weeks on column inches stating how evil and barbaric the rapists are is all too easy. It is both good and proper that an inch or two is devoted to the responsibility of the individual to live a virtous life and the responsibility of parents to teach their children (boys and girls) to live good clean lives. Maybe its just the way I was brought up and the values of Sikhi that my parents instilled in me but when I was the age of the victim I never had lovers that I would go on night-time dates with (and most of the news sources seem to be saying that the man with her was her lover) and, never being into things like pubs and clubs, I was never out at night, being in the habit of waking at amrit vele. My point then, directed at others not you, because I don't think you have the capability of reasoning, is that if Sikhi prescribes that good things will come to those that go to bed early and awaken at amrit vela, then is it not reasonable to say that bad things are likely to happen to those frolicking in the streets with the opposite sex late at night ?

We all have 'public transport buses' in our towns and cities. And our public transport buses are not always in service. They can all be hired out to private hire. Unless we're too drunk to read, or to old to see, we can always tell which of the public transport buses is in service and which is not. For a start there's a big sign at the front of the bus that says where it is going. This particular Delhi bus was blatantly clear that it was on private hire by a group and was not going to any particular destination. This is a fact thats been pointed out in the Indian media. Only persons half-drunk would fail too see that. But.....please refer back to my last message. I've made it quite clear that nobody deserves to be raped. Neither she nor I. But.....we as individuals must take responsibility for our actions and we as parents must take responsibility for the actions of our children. If my daughter is going to be out in the middle of night with her 'lover' then I would certainly take some resonsibility for not raising my daughter right. If I'm going to be out in Brighton or Compton Street late at night accepting lifts, I must take some of the responsibility for some of the male rape that is likely that night. This is about individual and collective responsibility. This is about not being afraid of saying something.....not being afraid to go against the mass hysteria.

I didn't say anyone had the right to rape her. Just like nobody has the right to rape me. One needs to be accountable for their own actions though. If I were walking around Brighton drunk as a skunk in the middle of the night accepting lifts from strange men cruising in their cars, there's an extremely good chance I'd be sodomized that night. Just saying....individuals and parents need to take more responsibility for their actions. This week alone we've got that Canadian Sikh dad looking for answers as to why his daughter was murdered in Pakistan. She flew half way around the world to meet up with strange men she met on the internet. Now nobody deserves to be murdered but it was always pretty clear that the story was not going to end well. Both she and her parents need to take responsibility for that. Same with the delhi rape victim. Drunk....with your lover.....in the middle of the night.....getting into strange vehicles in a particularly notorious and violent city. How was this ever going to end well ?