MrDoaba

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong but to me 'aarti karke' sounds like something that was performed physically as opposed to only being sung.

Adding to what @jkvlondon said about akirtghan and exactly how bad it is: ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਪਰਬਤਾਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਖਹੰਦੇ। Naa Tisu Bhaaray Prabataan Asamaan Khahanday | The sky-touching mountains also are not of much weight (than the ungrateful person). ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਕੋਟ ਗੜ੍ਹ ਘਰਬਾਰ ਦਿਸੰਦੇ। Naa Tisu Bhaaray Kot Garhh Ghar Baar Disanday | The visible forts are also not as weighty as he (the ungrateful person) is; ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਸਾਇਰਾਂ ਨਦ ਵਾਹ ਵਹੰਦੇ। Naa Tisu Bhaaray Saairaan Nad Vaah Vahanday | those oceans in which will the rivers merge are also not as heavy as he is; ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਤਰੁਵਰਾਂ ਫਲ ਸੁਫਲ ਫਲੰਦੇ। Naa Tisu Bhaaray Taruvaraan Fal Suphal Faladay | the fruit laden trees are also not as heavy as he is ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਜੀਅਜੰਤ ਅਣਗਣਤ ਫਿਰੰਦੇ। Naa Tisu Bhaaray Jeea Jant Anaganat Firanday | and nor those innumerable creatures are as heavy as he is. ਭਾਰੇ ਭੁਈਂ ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣ ਮੰਦੀ ਹੂ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੮॥ Bhaaray Bhueen Akirataghan Mandee Hoo Manday | In fact the ungrateful person is burden on earth and he is evil of evils.

Right, so I've listened to the Katha, read a translation of Charitr 404 (bits were missing), and a seperate analysis. Baala is the woman born of flames who, according to the katha, is Mata Sahib Kaur in Kalyug. The analysis states: "There is another important facet to be kept in mind about Sabudh Baach - The protagonist Baala, who fought with immense courage on the advent of Satjug does not appear anywhere in this present episode for a long time. This, again, is a subtle hint that the present social order has rendered the otherwise capable woman absolutely powerless. However, she reappears in the form of Bhawani and joins Kaal Purakh again in war efforts once all the 'Turk' Demons have been destroyed." So what @Singh123456777 said would technically be partly correct i.e Mata Sahib Kaur being Chandi/Durga/Bhavani in their past life. What happens in the rest of the charitr vis-a-vis Bhavani? What's the source of the Chandi and Dusht Daman story? Lets see if we can figure out if they are in fact connected in any way. Also, charitr 404 takes place in Satyug so one could assume that Baala continues to take birth until Kalyug (current day), most likely as Devi until Mata Sahib Kaur (who by some is also considered to be a manifestation of Devi) - my question is this: what is the significance of being born out of fire, what does it represent, especially in regards to the way it is portrayed in the charitr? A fact which may or may not be related to this, is that Devi is often represented by a flame (sometimes in a diva believe it or not haha). Second question: I know many revere the physical manifestations of Devi to varying degrees, and many revere Mata Sahib Kaur without having any connection to Devi, but does it really matter - aren't they all forms of Shakti or the feminine aspect of Akaal Purkh? Please forgive any mistakes.

What about the following: ਰਾਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਤੀ ਪਰਸਾਦ ਵੰਡੰਦੇ। This would indicate that Aarti was physically performed rather than just sang.

allowed*

It is important to Nihangs. If you ask someone to describe them off the top of their head they're undoubtedly either gonna mention Jhatka, Shastar, Dumalla, or the way they do Aarti. In regards to being anti-Arya Samaj, don't they shun ritual to quite some extent themselves? I don't think they even do Aarti in the tradtional way. I personally think it was a combination of things that led Ditt Singh to make these choices. His overall anti-Hindu sentiment was gaining popularity amongst aam janta and he used this to his advantage - in his personal vendetta against the Nihangs. Killed two birds with one stone.

First off it's not really jhatka. In the maryada there it just says 'vadd', meaning to cut - you can't jhatka a coconut. Secondly, like I said it's symbolic of the slaying of demons - the act of cutting adds a visual aspect, and think about the sound it would make. Both could be classified as dramatic techniques. Thirdly, it doesn't have to be a coconut, it says you can use sugar cane too. Don't read into it too much bro, it's not as suspicious as it seems. This is how paranoia over symbolism starts. It's no different to having jot or someone on dhoop duty during an Akhand Path.

Lol at Star Plus. Is your issue with the fact it's a coconut or the jhatka itself?

It is ritualistic but there's nothing wrong with it. It's symbolism and it intensifies the emotions and message of the bani, almost dramatises it. Think about how we use hand gestures, or poem/book to play/film adaptations.

Demons, evil beings etc.

Yeah I agree here bro, I did think that before posting it. This article isn't particularly well written for someone of Kamalroop Singh's calibre. However, I do believe his overall argument is valid. Caste is one area where Nihangs haven't faired so well in the past. Do you believe that was the actual reason why Gyani Ditt Singh stopped the Aarti though - over resentment, so he went after their most beloved rituals? I think it could have been to do with the discord he had with Arya Samaj and Hinduism in general. Kamalroop also mentions his association with Gulabdasis, and from what little I know about them, it would seem to fit into his bias against ritualism.

"A number of misguided modern-Sikhs say that this practice is Hindu or ritualistic. If we are to remove everything from the Khalsa Panth that has the slightest relation to the Hindu Dharam we would have nothing left. For example the Indian Princes used to keep Chaur, incense, war-drums, conch, flags, etc. All of these items were connected with their Royalty. In the same way the Aarti – Aarta is Bhakti, as we are affirming and respecting the True King, Sache Patshah, Dhan Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj! It is also our duty to recite this as it is our liturgy, as we have seen before. We do it to daily honour our Guru. This is a great thing to do. Therefore, in the Aarti we take Adi Guru Granth Sahib to be the living Guru, and we are paying our respects by standing and offering incense, ghee-lanterns, and singing with devotion more than anything else (ਲੇਹੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ Worship and adoration of the Pure, Primal Lord comes by worshipping the True Guru, O Siblings of Destiny.) We consider the Guru to be a manifestation of Vahiguru and hence why we do Puja of Maharaj. Vahu Vahu Bani Nirankar Hai! This is not idol worship, after all we put the Guru to bed, in Sukhasan, do Bhog to offer food, give Maharaj Rumalle, and do the Chaur Sahib and Ardas infront of Guru Maharaj. This is the respect of the Sargun, and the singing the Shabad is worship of the Nirgun Parmatma. Giani Ditt Singh was a prominent member of the Singh Sabha reform; he was against ritualism and managed to stop the traditional ritual of Aarti (lit. remover of darkness), of using lamps and incense to make a devoted supplication before Akal Purakh in Sikh temples. It is no surprise that before becoming a Sikh he was a Gulabdasi, a sect that is known to be fiercely against any form of ritualism. He wrote the Gurmat Aarti Prabodh on the subject. He called this practice false and stated he wanted to stop it. He states that that the Aarti would take place with lanterns at Sri Harmandir Sahib (verse 14), but he criticises it heavily. He mentions those imposters who wear blue, i.e. Nihang Singhs, and the Nirmale as sinners for doing this practice (verse 4). Stating, ‘they stand infront of the Guru with fire, Oh Saints’ (verse 6). He was of the belief there should be no Jot or Dhoop either, lantern or incense (verse 14). Giani Ditt Singh was of the belief that this practice started after the Guru’s reign at Harimandir Sahib (verse 17). If standing with a lantern infront of the Guru is Hinduism, then why do we stand behind the Guru with a metal object full of hair (Chaur Sahib)? This question seems disrespectful and that is how Giani Ditt Singh’s work was seen by traditional Sikhs, as being nastik, or cynical towards to the devotional practices of Dharam. He even notes this in his work. He then gives lengthy quotations of scripture in his poetry that is a conversation between ‘Khalsa’ and ‘Gobha Singh’. However, he does not quote Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, in which Guru Gobind Singh states: ਧੂਪ ਜਗਾਇ ਕੈ ਸੰਖ ਬਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇ ਕੈ ਬੈਨ ਸੁਨਾਇਓ ॥ They burn the incence and blow the conch and supplicate bowing their heads. This verse obviously contradicts his argument, and does he make mention of any others ritual of Adi Guru Granth Sahib, other than incense. Giani Ditt Singh was successful and the beautiful lanterns were stopped from being presented as a humble supplication before Adi Guru Granth Sahib at Sri Darbar Sahib. The Singh Sabha reformers banned this in Punjab, labelling it ‘Hindu.’ Nonetheless it was still found amongst the Buddha Dal, Nirmala, Nanaksar, and Namdhari Sikhs. Jathedar Baba Joginder Singh gave a response to this reformist Sikhism in Sri Hazur Marayada Prabodh. Where he states that in the evening there is the recitation of the Aarti , that contains substantial portions of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib. This is performed standing up, with lamps (Diva), and was a ritual associated with honouring the ancient Kings of India, Saints, and elders. He was one of the previous Jathedars of Hazur Sahib, and wrote the aforementioned book in defence of this practice as well as other, like the enthronement of the DG, in this work Sri Hazur Marayada Prabodh. A question is raised by a Sikh visting Takht Hazur Sahib: “Guru Nanak Dev states ‘The universe is the platter, and the sun and moon are the lamps, and the stars are the pearls’, so why must we need to use a platter and lanterns when God has already made them in the Universe?” However, if that is the case, then Sikhs should stop using the Chaur Sahib because in the second verse the Guru states: ਧੂਪੁ ਮਲਆਨਲੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਚਵਰੋ ਕਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬਨਰਾਇ ਫੂਲੰਤ ਜੋਤੀ ॥੧॥ The fragrance of sandalwood in the air is the temple incense, and the wind is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1|| Then, why the symbols of royalty like the Whisk (Chaur Sahib)? When the wind is the Lord’s fan? Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the living Guru of the Sikhs and in the ancient times all kings in India were attended by being fanned by a Royal Whisk, which clearly showed his status. In the same way the lanterns are to show that the ten Gurus are the light in Adi Sri Guru Granth Sahib on this world, and is done out of humility, love and respect. Just like the Chaur Sahib." -Dr. Kamalroop Singh

It's not just Nihangs, doing Aarti with Divas was a widespread practise even amongst regular folk. Why can the two not be compared?

Perhaps the bitter smoke from his diva went into his eyes and because of this, he has not been able to see your posts.

Bro I respect Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji deeply, in fact I deeply respect all Taksali Mahapurkhs. But I am not Taksali, hence, I do not follow all their teachings. My comments were mainly directed at SGPC Rehat Maryada. In my experience with time spent around some Taksalis, I have left somewhat confused in the past. While I know they would never do Aarti with Divas themselves, they do not say to others it is wrong nor do they try to stop them, and if they do it's certainly not because they believe it's Hindu Mat. Secondly, they are like this in regards to many things - if there is a practise they don't observe but other Sikhs do, they are still accepting of it despite what their own Maryada may state. Lastly and somewhat oddly, they generally do not think particularly much of Gyani Sher Singh (although this doesn't really matter). Taksal has its own special place in the Panth, and they are held in the highest regard.

Good, I'd rather not be one than follow a document that was practically shoved down the collective Panth's throat. So put that in your diva and light it.

Tell that to all the other Sikhs who don't fit your narrow-minded rigid definition of what a Sikh is as well. It's people like you who turn others away from Sikhi because you continue to attempt to dissolve any and all practises you deem to be anti-Sikh or Hindu which have in fact been around since the advent of Sikhi. Keep your wishy-washy reform faith to yourself. If you are what constitutes a Sikh then I'd rather not be be one. ਮਾ ਸਰਸਵਤੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਤੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਤੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਨੁਕਸ ਕੱਢੇ

Those two documents are not representative of the Sikh Panth by any means. If they were, most Sikhs would not be considered 'Sikh'. Guess Hazoor Sahib, Patna Sahib, and ALL the traditional Sampardas are idiots hey. Many things they claim to be contrary to Gurmat in SRM are done by majority of Gurdwaras I have been to so I guess they're not Sikh by its logic either. I suggest you read the document in the link I provided. Here it is again: https://www.scribd.com/doc/183005595/Arati-Arata-by-Dr-Kamalroop-Singh-Akali-Nihang-pdf

Said who? And why is the fact that Guru Nanak Dev Ji composed the Aarti, according to you, not a reason to do it with Divas?

The KSS does not discriminate against Malwais, but KSS HQ will be in Doaba you have been made Pradhaan of the Malwa area!

Honestly someone should just make a list of things which would be incorrect if one considers doing Aarti with Divas incorrect. It would be a long long list.

You forgot to say...Sri Raam Jai Raam Jai Jai Raam. I've come up with a new organisation: KSS - Khalsa Suryavanshi Sena - Army of the Pure Suryavanshi. It sounds awfully like another organisation we know of, nevermind, would you like to join anyway?

And what gave you the impression that anyone believes in pakhands? What's wrong with Aarti with Divas, it's the correct way.

I think you misunderstood my post. Why are you so Hinduphobic?

You don't happen to have a samagri list for all these Pujas by any chance do you? I wonder if you can get Mr. Muscle Havan Kund cleaner? And Aarti was and should always be done with Divas: https://www.scribd.com/doc/183005595/Arati-Arata-by-Dr-Kamalroop-Singh-Akali-Nihang-pdf