Malwai

The question is, what is this thread doing in the "General" Sikhi section, this has nothing to do with Sikhi?? Can it please be moved.

I appreciate your comments Bhai Ji, very constructive and discussion worthy. I think my views on the challenges faced by the Quam merit a separate thread so not to dilute the reality with idealism. It will take me some time but it is something I will do in the coming days.

How did you reach the conclusion that I have no faith? Maybe Khalistan is not the Hukam of Waheguru? My faith in Waheguru is not based on materialistic or worldly needs, and that includes Khalistan. What knowledge have I not gained? Can you articulate? I don't think you can claim Sikh victory for the 80's, we were firmly defeated and operations in Punjab against Sikhs still continue today in covert guises, e.g. rampant drug abuse, lack of economic development and denial of free speech. This list is by no means exhaustive and these heading all have sub-contexts that pose their own threats and challenges. One thing I do know is that Sikhi does not promote prophecies, but clearly your post appears to read like a Christian evangelical preaching the end of the world, we know nothing of Waheguru's Hukam and what the future of mankind holds. You also appear to underestimate Kalyug and its deep roots and devastating effects. I really don't want to sit here being critical, but it has to be said that there is a whole generation of Western Sikhs who appear to be "Internet Warriors", have never been to Punjab or have significantly experienced the grass roots reality, but continue to live in a romantic fantasy world. Sitting on your laptop and getting fired up watching YouTube video of Shaheeds is only healthy if it promotes positive action, i.e. Libya, Egypt, Syria or other charitable efforts to have some positive influence on the Sikh community. Believe me, 10 minutes in a thana (police station) being dished out a beating by Punjab Police would make 99% of you forget about Khalistan, like the famous saying goes "Talk Is Cheap".

I don't think you can quite grasp the unique challenges we are faced with today in a global/corporate/elitist/capitalist society, and to equate these with examples from the 1600/1700's is naive at best. Feel free to continue to romanticize about past glories, it’s not going to get us anywhere.

Enlightening post, wasn't aware of this. Your sane and balanced views are required, please don't leave!

WLS, it wasn't your post that resulted in the deletions.

Bhai Ji, You don't have to apologies for your thread, no problem. I admire your passion, but I feel it is misdirected, you need to channel it into doing something that will make a tangible difference.

Whilst I don’t dispute some of your historical statements you make, you do have a very one dimensional view of Sikh history. What you fail to realize is, that all our troubles we face today, including being homeless is OUR fault, not the Muslims, British or the Hindus. Sikh Quam = Quam of Gaddars (Back-stabbers)

A completely inappropriate example of the challenges we are faced with today, or more to the point by the aspirations of the thread creator.

I don’t believe in optimism born out of delusion.

Sorry to bring you back down to reality, but nothing is going to happen, not in 2011, 2012, 2015 and so on. There are so many reasons why nothing will ever happen, almost too many to list. Sikhi will die out, at minimum in its truest form, arguably this has already happened. What a shame.

What a bunch of fraudsters. Almost the perfect staged act, but not quite, play the video to 4:42 when the woman in question is lying down on the floor shaking, at exactly on 4:47 you will see the woman reaching for her salwaar (top) to adjust it to cover her modesty!!!! But I suppose the spirit possessing her could have a modesty complex in public!!! We all know the SGGS makes it clear that only one Atma (Soul) can reside in the human body, hence this possession business is complete utter nonsense. Christianity has been exposed many times over with numerous flaws in its history, theology, philosophy and religious texts. These missionaries are adept and well-honed in taping into and misleading illiterate and poor communities all across the globe, including Punjab. As for the educated Punjabi folk in the West converting or dabbling with Christianity, well it’s quite clear, these families/individuals cannot hack Sikhi, they look for something easier to justify their lifestyles or attitudes. However some cannot be blamed as parents have no interest in today’s materialistic society in teaching their children the importance of religion and underpinning values, just as they teach them the importance of education and wealth accumulation. These children then grow up learning the values and belief systems of their countries of birth and end up looking to Christianity. On a final note, the Sikh religion will erode either in its pure form (as is happening right now) or entirely in the absence of a focal point for the religion, i.e. KHALISTAN.

Thanks for this, I was not aware, any Seva towards humanity should be celebrated, mainstream media is a joke.

Kamboj isn't a caste, they are a ethnic tribe/clan found in northern India and Pakistan.

I'm willing to bet that Bhai Sahib from Khalsa Aid has done more charitable acts in one lifetime then the people criticising him will do in several, sad really. You want figures demonstrating the kurbani of Jatts, I'll give you something, refer to below link that looks at over 800 registered cases of fake encounters and police murders during the 80's, of the 800 cases, nearly 600 cases belong to Jatt Sikh Shaheeds, my maths makes that over 70%: Jatt Kurbani This is only one, there are plenty more, I suggest you spend some time in the rural belts of Punjab to understand the disposition of Jatts and their contribution to Sikh struggles. How dare you refer to Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh & Beant Singh as low caste! Firstly like I've previously mentioned there is no organised caste system in Sikhism. Let me also set the record straight, I know Bhai Satwant Singh's family very well and I regularly attend Bhai Sahib's barsi, perhaps you should pay a visit next time in Punjab and use the words "low caste", Bhai Sahib belonged to the brave and well respected Kamboj tribe, you should get your facts straight before spouting your lies. As for Punjabi songs, West London Singh explained this well previously and their historical context during harvest season.

I'm sorry but your post makes no sense whatsoever - it's very naive, I'm not being disrespectful. First of all Jatt does NOT mean farmer, this is totally incorrect and a lie, the Punjabi word for farmer is "kissan". To prove this, Jatts are not the only farming tribe in Punjab - but the largest. What about the equally commendable Kamboj Sikh farmers belonging predominantly to the Majha belt of Punjab, also there are notable numbers of Saini Sikh farmers in Punjab.

These Jatts are just as ignorant as others when it comes to their heritage and background - it's easily done living in a rural homogeneous society for centuries. We are hardly known for our scholars or academics and as such failed miserably to accurately record our long history, pre-dating Sikhi, but research objectively without ignorance and you will find all the necessary evidence to prove my point. I've yet to meet anybody that can intellectually disprove what I am saying. With regards to your video, why are you preaching to the converted, if you weren't so ignorant you would know I stated the following in my very first post in this thread: Ego is not something exclusively limited to Jatts as everyone is so keen to propagate, one of most poignant examples I can recall is a Punjabi Chamar family that looked at "Churas" with contempt and as inferior, says it all really. Dalits in Punjab are socially and economically vastly better off than their counterparts in other parts of India, this needs to be acknowledged, and this is simply down to the fact that there is no organised caste system in Sikhism, despite what anybody wants to think.

Dal Singh Veer Ji, First of all I've yet to meet a Jatt that has a problem with other Sikhs asserting any cultural or ethnic identity, it's always the other way round, and so your point is completely invalid. Tharkhans or Bhatras are more than welcome to have their own identity and welcome to express it so long as it doesn't violate the fundamental rights of other Sikhs as per the SGGS, this applies to Jatts too I might add. What's there to accept about the ethnic group statement, it's a FACT, nothing to do with the British, yes they exploited caste/ethnic/social divisions on the sub-continent, but the FACT still stands that Jatts are not a caste, I challenge you to disprove me otherwise. My field of expertise is Anthropology, and in my time I have studied the composition of the Indian sub-continent, so please can you let me know what these "holes" are so that I can enlighten you. Jatts have never complained about anybody else expressing their identity, it's laughable to even suggest this! It's always the other way around, with peoples own inferiority complex. Please don't take any offence to my post, I don't have any hatred or supremacist agenda, I'm just interested in the facts and the truth. I openly admit there are Jatts who view themselves to be of a higher disposition in comparison with others because of their superior economic standing in society, but this is not limited to other non-Jatts, this attitude also extends to poor Jatts too, I have seen this myself many times. I don't think the actions of one or two speakers on Sikh Channel should discredit the channel, they have done a great service, they openly discuss controversial Panthic issues, and might I add I have seen adverts for Ravidassia functions/programs, so I think this is being blown out of proportion perhaps?

WJKK WJKF I don't see the problem with mentioning the FACT that Bhagat Singh was a Sandhu, I really don't understand where caste comes into the equation. Jatts are not a caste but a ethnic tribal group, divided into clans, much like the Pashtuns. I don't see the problem with mentioning someone's ethnic/clan origin? Look whether you like it or not, Jatts have distinct social, cultural and ethnic traits, even the Gurus maintained their Khatri marriage customs/traditions. Cultural heritages can be maintained without discriminating against others, things like separate gurdwaras in villages based on caste/ethnic/social lines is very wrong, and any other such practices that Guru Ji was against. As for Jatt Sikhs making most of the Kurbani, well if I'm being honest, it's partially true. Speaking from first hand experience of Khalistani Sikhs in Punjab during the 80's, the movement was Jatt Sikh led and predominantly Jatt Sikh in support and numbers, this is not to discredit or lessen the contribution of other great Sikh Shaheeds were not from a Jatt background, I want to make this point very clear. But I take the point, if it was repeated unnecessarily, then I find that rather pointless and annoying.

Apart from bringing shame to the Virk clan, the girl is making a mockery out of Sikhi for marrying a gora and then expecting a Sikh wedding.

Please read the following comments made by this RSS agent or whoever he is on another forum: http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/ne...id=2409&forum=1 There seems to be a number of similar comments being made by people posting behind so called Sikh identities. This particular guy has been posting under two names over on the other forum:

Did you actually bother reading my post in full or did you feel your inner inferiority complex coming out when you saw the word bhapa??? You show your intelligence and stereotyping by assuming I am a Jatt, did I say I was a Jatt?? However if you would like to know I am a Jatt and I am very comfortable with saying it, as it is my ethnic background which I can not change. Now let me break down what I did say for your brain (or lack of it) to understand: Ok which bit did you not understand or have offence with??? By "these people" I mean Hindu commentators who portray this lie. Yes, what do Hindu commentators know about rural Punjab and it's people?? This is the part I believe that touched the nerve? Well the truth hurts. Now let me explain the context in which I said this. These Hindu commentators interact with Sikhs based in the cities on whom they base their opinions on regarding support for the militants. These same bhapa for a FACT have no problem with marrying Hindus of the same "caste". This is undeniable, you only have to look at various matrimonial sites, on the same note, you will never find a Jatt Sikh even considering a Hindu Jatt for marriage. There lies the gulf in mentality and culture. This is not the case for all urban class Sikhs, however it is the majority that accept this neo-Sikh culture. Now that leads to asking the question what have I said that is offence or racist?? I stated the truth, and I will continue to do so even if that means stepping on other peoples toes.

What a load of utter rubbish. To compare the British and their Raj to the last 20+ years of tyrannical Brahmin India is a complete joke. Firstly about 500+ people died as a result of the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, where then did you get that ridiculous figure of 20,000. In general the British did there fair share for Punjab and Sikhs, with great advancements of agriculture taking place. Sikhs in the UK are the most successful ethnic minority in Britain, that including the Whites. The only countless atrocities I remember is the murder of 100,000+ Sikhs since the early 80's. Today we face a different kind of war in Punjab, our History, Religion, People (Drugs & Alcohol) and Economy is being killed, this is the direct result of Government policies that are aimed at eradicating the Sikhs as an independent nation. Another thing I would like to say this that I am sick and tired of all these people that comment that the militants were not popular or supported in Punjab. What the hell do these people know about the rural Sikh people, NOTHING! These bhapa they meet in the cities that are neo-Sikhs that have mixed marriages with their Hindu counterparts (one brother Sikh and the other Hindu) and they are the "Sikhs" who claim to love India en mass. KHALISTAN ZINDABAD.

Babbu Mann is not a Muslim, he is Sikh. Many Punjabi singers use Sufi/Muslim references because of cultural heritage.

In the above example, you have not conquered kaam, you are simply avoiding it.