Sinister

THANKYOU! WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LANGUAGE AND A "SCRIPT", IF THE "SCRIPT" REQUIRES AN EXPLANATION IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE? AGAIN WHERE WORKING CIRCLES HERE. AND AS FOR THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS, THESE ARE DONE BY INDIVIDUALS, OR FROM A COLLECTIVE, COULD THEY SHOW ANY BIAS OR ERROR?

AGAIN UNTILED SINGH YOUR NOT READING MY QUESTIONS? WHEN, WHERE, HOW AND UNDER WHAT CONDITION WAS OUR GRANTH INTERPRETED AND TRANSLATED INTO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES? DONT TELL ME THAT THE GRANTH HAS NEVER BEEN TRANSLATED! YOUR NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IM GETTING AT HERE. I KNOW THAT THE GURMUKHI VERSION HAS BEEN PERSERVED, I DONT DOUBT THAT, HOWEVER I DO SHOW DOUBT IN TRANSLATION UNTIL I FIND OUT WHERE AND WHEN AND FROM WHO IT CAME FROM!

PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MAKE THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS....THATS AN OPINION AND I FULLY ACCEPT THAT. But many people beleive that personal interpretations is whats great about sikhi! we are similiar to the protestant faith (but we have to remeber that the protestant faith split into many different levels in the 1500's, befor sikhi)! BUT IF IT WHERE NOT FOR THE TRANSLATIONS, PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND THE GURBANI AT ALL! THUS PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MAKE TRANSLATIONS. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF WHO CANNOT INTERPRET GURMUKHI WORD FOR WORD, PEOPLE WHO CANNOT TALK, SPEEK AND WRITE IN GURMUKHI ARE COMPLETELY DEPENDANT ON TRANSLATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can read gurmukhi but i cannot understand it (at all), I am entirely dependant on translations of Individuals, does this mean I cant become a sikh? Again people dont try to change this forum topic, it should be short and simple arguments that are too the point! THESE ARE ONLY OBSERVATIONS THAT IM REPORTING, I HAVE NO PERSONAL OPINION ON THE MATTER OR ACCORDING RECENTLY TO "ADMIN" AM NOT ALLOWED TO EXPRESS IT BECAUSE I HAVE A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SIKHI!

To singh132, now dont get me wrong, but judging from your response you beleive that the true message of the bani lies in the language of gurmukhi. Thus do you beleive that it is essential to know gurmukhi in order to understand Sikhi teachings? know do you know Gurmukhi, if so how? You probabl learnt gurmukhi from the punjabi translation, didn't you? Remember punjabi and gurmukhi are entirely different things, I can read difficult gurmukhi but it makes absolutely no sense to me (meaning i can't understand what Im reading...to some extent), I rely entirely on the punjabi or english translations as do the majority of other sikhs! Is this a bad thing (this is my question in its entirety)? WHATS THE POINT OF READING THE ORIGINAL IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT? now what I don't understand in Sikhi is that despite all these different translations that have been made over the past 300 years, their are no major rifts, and that I beleive is truly remarkable!!!!!!! maybe it could be that their are not enough Sikh Scholars, there are not many sikhs that know gurmukhi thus rely entirely on the translations (such as myself) or the fact that our faith is still very young, but still truly remarkable! you still didnt answer my questions? by whom, where, when and under what conditions were different translations of the granth made from Gurmukhi to punjabi and then from gurmukhi to english? shouldn't these things be higly regulated as not to take scriptures out of context? or should people be free to interpret the bani on any level, as do the Protestants with their bible? To Untitled Singh, Objectivity is key, your answer (if thats what you want to call it) was not backed by any proof. You didnt answer any of my questions. nor do I beleive you read my post in its entirity. Your response has no objective character to the problem at hand, you just praised the Granth (which is fine), but this is not a popularity contest! Your response was rejected by me from reading the very first line: "The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj has not been touched, not one word not one letter has been altered or tranlsated" To state that Shiri Guru Granth Sahib has not been touched is an unnaceptable answer, you have no proof, however i do, I can give you lots of links in which the gurbani is interpreted and translated BY INDIVIDUALS, and this is what we as the general public read. If you dont mind me asking, what world do you live in? Just to save time and keeping this forum short, I recomend that people with historical, and languistical knowledge reply to my question, and finally shut me up.

HI everyone, Just have a few questions or concerns for that matter: Was the Adi-Granth first compiled in Gurmukhi or Sanskrit? I know the guru's wrote in sanskriti themselves (this was jsut the language of choice back in the day), If it was compiled in Sanskrit, how, who (was it the guru's), where, when did it get translated to Gurmukhi? I dunno for sure but i think gurmukhi was a language coined by one of our guru's (is this right?). I beleive this is a very important issue, why? Because the bible has been translated many times into different languages, and each time it was translated a new meaning and an entirely different sect arose and great reformation came about in there faith (similiar things happened in islam). Latin=catholic adoption Greek= roman catholic adoption translated to german by martin luther= to give rise to Lutherianism and later Calvinism, and then later to puritanism english= done by multiple subjects of King Henery VIII which went on to produce Anglican faith. I just want to make sure nothing of the sort could have happened in SIkhi when the Guru Gobind Singh Ji's words where compiled in Sanskrit and then later translated into gurmukhi. this is where the question lies (NOTE: I admit to having no knowledge about this) where, when and by who was the scripture translated by. If the translation was done by the guru himself then, well thats the end of this discussion. but then again by whom, how, where and when was the gurmukhi translated to english? This i know is not done by our Guru ji's. Could we be emerging multiple translations of the Adi-Granth similiar to the christians? is this bad for the faith? should we be learning gurmukhi to better undrstand our guru's teachings and not learning sikhi off english translations just to make sure that their are no biast interpretations? Not trying to stir anything, not trying to add an opinion, purely an objective question from objective observation, thus an objective answer would be greatly admired. Thanks everyone, cheers

Try to understand the reason why your mother hit you, talk to your mother on the issue, express your opinion on the matter, and politely ask her what it is you did wrong and why you got the treatment you recieved. But i'm pretty sure that your mother did so for a reason. ps: its just a way of life, i got plenty of spanks when i was younger, dont take it to heart, laugh it off (this usually helped me).

k 51ngh "isnt there also a survey proving that masterbating is unhealthy too??? i read it once... on this VERY forum! any help guys?" HAHAHAHA, Whats wrong with you? Why do people on this forum try to fight biological science? why are people so ashamed to admit that they are impure? YOU SILLY ASCETICS! COME ON, your not only lying to yourself but to others. Theres nothing wrong with masturbation! Do not try to prevent it, its a natural instinct that is a result of over 3 million years of evolution. sorry if im getting to graphic. Thus in conclusion: RELIGION CAN NEVER COMPLETELY SUPPRESS LUST! END OF DISCUSSION (maybe when your old and grey but not when your hormones are kicken).

hey its not too bad, I dunno if you read the news lately but sikhs have alot of political power, they just fight amongst themselves thats all. look at the prime minister of india, when was the last time A british, Canandian, American country nominated a minority group to run the country. What would punjab be on its own? nothing but a small, poor, extremely corrupt state, with an agricultural base for an economy. We would be bankrupt, like pakistan. lol this entire Hate the Hindu thing your routing for (by posting up the pics) is very unskihly like. Im Indian and I am Sikh and I am proud.

Wow! discussion of sex on a sikhi forum. IM impressed! What about masturbation? A survey conducted in Canada showed that 96% of young males indulged in masturbation. The other 4% are probably lying, lol. The process of "lusting", usually results in masturbation this is a natural process, and it is a HEALTHY process. Research has shown that it helps build a males sexual drive and actually prevents premature ejaculation, a disease (yes it is a disease) that can limit a males ability to fertilize a females egg. Masturbation also helps releave tension and progressive sexual depression, a disease that develops in, how do i put it, sexually silent men. Medical professionals will tell you that masturbation is a normal and healthy part of male self-control, not a sign of weakness. You can read more about the studies done on masturbation: Human autoerictic practices By: Manfred F. Demartino Yes try to control lust, i agree its negative and can get you into alot of trouble sometimes :lol: But do not completely try to fight your body and try to shut down its sexual response. When your body is stimulated its actually trying to tell you something. It needs amusement, its only natural. TO untitled singh: to reserve sexual acts just for procreation! well i disagree, that would give rise to many other social problems including a side-effect of a population well over 6 billion, we would have alot more kids, or for that matter alot more abortions, when we find out that we cant afford them. Practicing sex as a recreational process with your spouse is a good thing, first of all you love the person and second of all you can satisfy your body's needs. To untitled singh: sheesh! hate to be married to you!

to lost soul, for me, Free will does not exist, we are ever influenced by every action around us. I'm a conflict theorist in that I veiw the self in conflict with the self. Kinda like Freud's idea on the Id and the Ego. Ego supresses the "Id" (natural impulsive man). In a way we are programmed by society to perform and think a certain way, in accordance to the "norm". Ultimate freedom for man can only come if man "retreats" back to his natural animal state. This however is not possible. Or like toqueville said, every act and social organization in your world should be voluntary, this is also not possible within society. so absolute free will does not and cannot exist. A man who practices free will is on the brink of insanity or is probably suicidal. He is a man that cannot establish any morals and or beleifs. TO dreamman: What happens when the Fight for justice is complete? the fight for justice can never be complete because justice itself changes in the course of history, social norms change, so does our definition of a deviant person. Once "sikhi" has acheived its goal and "conquered evil", we woud just make up new evils to conquer, wont we?

To Crayzy, ask yourself..... Was there a free sikh society? No one was forced to be a SIKH? ha i beg to differ, was a child born into the home of an early sikh family not obliged to become a sikh. was his/her nimble mind not pounded with sikh ideologies from a young age. Were the lower/poorer castes not promised equality? In a way did this not force the lower castes and less powerfull to join the Sikhi movement. All im saying is that the sikhi movement was a movement that helped remove opression (an evil), you completely misunderstood everything i wrote. In a way, Sikhi is the early form of the Marxist movement, look at the idea of Langar. I never held marxism above Sikhi, however i do not support Sikhi's stance over Karmanian ideology (and thats an opinion). You insult your own reason when you talk of chaursee lakh joon. Now ask yourself, what is the definition of good? Why does God love Good, Does god love good because it is good? or is the good good because god loves it? THe overall take home message was that, God cannot love us, or for that matter judge us, on the basis whether we performed good and evil in our present life, because the definition of Good and Evil changes, not only within society but over time! judjing from your response you either 1) did not read between the lines thus misunderstood my message or 2) your not very bright. you choose.

well, well, well Khalsa girl has some soft spots, judging from your pic, ur a materialist do you pray to your god for that car every night? well hun hate to break it to ya you wont get with that attitude. Oh yes, you jus judged me that im not a sikh, and i just simply judged you back dont take it personally hun

To Bhajneet: Do not hail down to me, I never asked that from you, you are putting words in my mouth. I am but a fool in a foolish world. All i ask is that you hail down to God and his Good and Evil ways. To HSM136: haha "me thinks" your wrong, Babar's political policies had great influences on Guru Nanak, go back and reveiw some sikh history. Babar's policies allowed for: - Satti (essentially male dominance in both Islamic/Hindu punjab) - Caste system prevelance, and the existance of the "pariah people" - extreme poverty, an unfair split of resources. the very practices Guru Nanak tried to eliminate in our faith The people of punjab craved Guru Nanaks vision, no doubt. But not the existing nobility, whom I clearly label as the evil and prime "movers" of the Sikhi movement. Please restructure your argument, dont use poetry, especially if it clouds your message.

By Sinister, To everyone with the utmost respect: Welcome to the post! thankyou for taking the time and replying to my questions (just in advance)! EVERYONE, ASK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU PROCEED, IS HUMANITY THE AUTHOR OF EVIL? MY ARGUMENT: labeling humanity as the author of evil gives us too much power and for that matter too much credit! Translation: Did a Sikh not feel the ground tremble as the large imperial armies marched to destroy him and his people? Did this trembling of the earth not ultimately shape his Sikh Psyche? Did the Mughal Nobles not play an essential role in shaping Sikhi into what it has become today? I say--> If the 10th Guru is the author of the Khalsa then the Moghuls and their actioins are certainly the co-authors (this is what I mean when I say the guru's and their teachings are derivatives of the society they lived in). Human evil (the actions of the Mughal nobles) gave birth to Sikhi! Sikhi, my friend, is the rebellious child of evil! Sikhi would not exist if the guru’s saw no need to bring about the reformation within an existing society, thus Evil is the author of Sikhi, and gave Sikhi not only purpose but direction. Now we have to ask ourselves did the Guru’s wish for a Utopian Society in which evil was no more, do they wish for a society in which people live in perfect synchronous harmony with the “divine”? Why does Sikhi want to terminate what made it? Why does Sikhi want to terminate evil that made almost all the world religions. Is evil bad? so if evil is good and good is good how should we live our lives? -->to that i say this: simply on the basis of taste, our taste or GODs, unfortunately we dont know gods "taste". previously, many people on his forum said that my questions only makes generalizations, and sweeps the surface of sikhi, I beg to differ. If we label humanity the author of evil we give it too much power and credit. God is the author of both GOOD and EVIL, if it is truly god that developed Sikhi. :lol: SIKH LEFTISTS FREE YOUR MINDS :umm:

o yes sorry another thing i forgot, you cant become a better sikh by "trying hard"! and who do you classify as a better sikh? A person who goes to the gurdwara everyday for the wrong reasons or a person who goes to the party (you characterized) to enjoy their present life, to socialize with their fellow man and express the freedom god has given them. My freind you dream of a Utopian society It is not our leaders that keep Sikhi alive It is Evil that keeps Sikhi alive

haha, good peice But remeber, no one can really do something against sikhism! to judge someones acions as being against sikhism is not our call, its gods.

hello, couldn't help but notice your conservative outlook so come join my debate on The Sinister Veiw: Sikh Critique you will learn something there and can address some important issues in out fatih! i would love to hear your input :lol: