sikhiseeker

WJKK WJKF That's absolutely fine on a personal level, however within the context of being an amritdhari Khalsa sikh of Shiri Guru Gobind Singh it's not.

WJKK WJKF 100% agree with you on the moderation of this site. But I'm not arguing with you brother, simply debating a difference of opinion, maybe I will come round to your view on a particular topic or you to mine, however I'm not here to win or lose, just converse with sangam. Also you should finish what you have to say, whether mods do clear the topic or not. As what's the point of all us posting to one another in the end.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, I was waiting for you reply, or is it a "no comment " again?

WJKK WJKFThanks for the reply. However as the UK officially being a Christian country and the Christian missionaries converting the panjabi people to Christianity, I don't see a difference if a Khalsa sikh celebrates here or in panjab, other than being pure manmatt. Veer ji, again in your reply you talk about a majority of people, please provide link to where you got this stat from. You did not pick up on this point in my previous post. Also, Indian culture is one thing and obviously uk culture is another. However culture of any country has nothing to do with gurmat. The British enjoy congregating in there local pub/bar for a pint, does that mean due to the majority of society following this trend in culture, we as Khalsa Sikhs should go down to the local and have a pint too? As that is what your opinion on this topic would suggest, basically being a bakri, following all the other bakria, even off the cliff edge if it happens.

WJKK WJKF I thought you was not gonna comment on this topic but as you have resumed, do you thing that if Shiri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Mahrajbwas in physical today, do you think that they would have a Christmas tree up in their darbar? My answer would be NO, so how does it look when the Khalsa practice manmat and celebrate Christmas? You keep banging on about ties, were talking about the celebration of Christmas within Sikhs! What is your point? That we should renounce any invention a Christian may have intended or any clothing to do with the west when I clearly responded to your question stating that the rehat maryada states that a sikh has no restriction on clothing, other than 5 k's. Did you not read my post? Your big on facts and stats within your previous posts on other topics, yet you keep stating that in the uk 99.99% of people do not celebrate Xmas religiously. Where did you get this stat from veera? Thin air? Or a desperate search for justifying your love of celebrating Xmas. However, if it is a real, uk gov researched stat, please let us all have the link so we can have a butchers ourselves. If you said that you simply love Xmas and your kids love it too, fine! But brother don't try and justify it in terms of gurmat and the Khalsa, because you will fail every time. As AGAIN....there is nothing sikh......or Khalsa about a Khalsa sikh having a tree, which is a pagan/Christian symbol in their home which has been decorated to welcome in the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ and the arrival on Christmas Eve of SANTA Claus ( SANTA meaning saint, a Christian one) all with the sikh wearing the forbidden tie lol. Fact of the matter is, if Xmas has nothing to do with Jesus, why still in our schools across the uk is the Nativity Play inacted? BECAUSE IRREGARDS OF YOUR STATS OF 99.99% OF PEOPLE DONT BELIEVE IN CHRISTMAS AS A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY, THE U.K IS STILL A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY CELEBRATING WITHIN ITS CALENDAR, CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS LIKE EASTER! You never did respond with an opinion on if Sikhs within panjab, especially sirhind started decorating their homes with lights, had Xmas trees in their homes and Santa stops outside? Be interesting in knowing what you thought, if this were to ever happen?

WJKK WJKF That brings me back to the point that many people profess to be something like a Sikh, Christian, Muslim or Jew. However if you wish to see what the religion teaches people to be like, go back to the original source, in this case the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, the Ten guru Sahiban and the mahaan shaheed of the Khalsa kaum.

WJKK WJKF I replied to your post as I do not celebrate Christmas in my home, however I do not believe in racism neither do I believe many, many people on this forum are the definition of a sikh, including myself as I make many mistakes everyday, only home to learn from them. Here in the uk, the Christmas tree is cultural, traditional, and religious marking the festivity of Christmas. Some people will put the tree within their home alongside other decorations on a specific date and then take them down on a specific date. In other European countries, the festivities, traditions and culture may all well be different, however they all mark the celebration of the birth of Christ. I also see no harm in spending time with family when off work, who would lol? Any holiday is great, it still does not mean you need to celebrate Christmas if you practice a different faith in a European country. The "Sikhs" who celebrate Hindu/Christian/Muslim...etc festivals indeed should take a look at the code and conduct of a sikh. However, this sort of sikh should be no reflection on sikhi, as the faith is stainless. Culture can never mix with religion, it is like oil and water. Ones religion and its rule govern the way one should conduct themselves in any situation, yes making mistakes butore importantly learning from them. I'm not for attacking Christmas, it should be celebrated by whom sot ever wishes to celebrate it, but within the context of sikhi, interfaith marriages cannot be religiously blessed. It is only two Sikhs that can have the Anand Karaj. I can't answer for the comment about the "gora" however anyone can become a sikh. Jesus Christ is believed to be a prophet within the Koran, The Christian Bible speaks of the "prophets" of God as does the Torah like Elijah, Enoch, Abraham and Moses. Within gurmat, Akal purakh waheguru is the creator of all and is within the creation.

WJKK WJKFHi, I'm not sure whether your a sikh or of another faith but yes your right, Sikhi is a very peaceful religion. However that does not mean that I can do what I wish. As a sikh, I must live my life within set rules. Hence, why I should only consider the Ten Guru Sahiban, The Shiri Guru Granth Sahib and Akal Purakh Waheguru as my path across the world ocean. Your also right that Christmas Trees were introduced to Britain by the Royals of that time period, however please research the pagan tradition of trees and why trees were used much earlier than Prince Albert. Secondly, Father Christmas/ Santa Claus is a depiction today of Saint Nicholas. Thirdly, the celebration of the prophet of Jesus Christs birth on Christmas came first in terms of religion and commercialisation, whether or not it was actually on that date or not. All the other things mentioned are the commercialisation of Christmas. The religious aspect of Christmas can never be separated. For a sikh to celebrate Christmas is simply manmatt indulging in maya. The fact that these posts are able to be viewed on the net celebrates free speech. There is a huge difference between the extreme anti Western Islamic fanatics and a sikh. I am intergrated into my birth country, Great Britain, I have the legal right to practice my religion and the legal right of free speech, I may not celebrate Christmas however all my neighbours do, which is respected as they respect me when I celebrate my faiths calendar. However that does not by no way mean I have to celebrate Christmas, as my neighbour needs not to celebrate Vaisakhi. It is through mutual respect life on normal streets in towns and cities are lived. I ask as a sikh of no conversion to my religion. I pray to the only one universal creator, I believe in equality of gender, colour and creed, I believe another person should be able to practice their religion right next to me freely, I believe that the person next to me irregards of religion, gender, colour, caste, creed or class is a equal to me, I am no better or no worse, I am no further in merging back with the almighty as they! Thus being why a sikh and the anti western fanatical Islamist have not one iota in common.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, Christianity is a religion like Islam which converts. Many panjabi's have converted to Christianity in the uk and in the panjab. To celebrate other religious festivals is mannmatt. To respect them and others celebrating them is gurmat. Jews are not a threat as in converting Sikhs to Judaism, we do not celebrate pass over.

WJKK WJKF Bestveay to build muscle is eat right for the mass which I soooo important and go heavy, as many reps as you can. Obviously due to the weight being heavier, try and achieve around 4/5 good strong reps. When it's gets easier push th weight up a notch, always go heavy and don't get to comfortable. For your chest, start with incline and make sure you go heavy, do bench press and d-cline press and use cables if poss. For your arms....TRICEP, TRICEP and TRICEP....,then Bicep. If you want big arms work your TRICEP harder as it is much bigger than your Bicep. Important to train with a partner to spot you. SAFETY FIRST! Keep training, keep strong like our guru intended brother! When your tired of pushing that weight, think of the guru and I guarantee you will get one more out for him!

WJKK WJKF Question to sangat ji, How would we western Sikhs take to Sikhs decorating their homes with Christmas Trees and lights to mark Christmas, with Santa stops outside especially in sirhind and all over panjab?

WJKK WJKF Veer ji , I have to strongly disagree with your post. I'm not sure of the percentage of practicing Christians, however there still is obviously a percentage, irregards of this percentage, the Nativity Play is enacted across nursery, infant and juniors schools. The Nativity is about the birth of the son of god, Jesus through the Virgin Mary and gifts are brought by the three kings. How does this not relate to Christianity veer ji? Santa is a depiction of Saint Nicholas, a Christian. The tree is a symbol from paganism and Christianity and represents Christmas. The 25th of December, Christmas Day also hijacked by Christians from pagans to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Yes, Christmas is heavily commercialised, however you cannot take away the Christian message. The service of others, the giving of food and sarbhat da bhala is what silks do all year round. Why then have a Christmas tree and decorations to mark a Christian/pagan holiday? The social aspect is for Christmas is intertwined with the religious. It is like a sikh, fasting in a Muslim country then enjoying a huge meal with his family within the Muslim celebration. A Khalsa should stay Khalsa in physical form and character all the time. I understand that in western countries we all have time off work at this period, we all go and see family and spend time with our children, however I do not see any gurmat in making this time feel any more special by physically decorating our homes, marking a Christian festival, in a Christian country, in a sikh home, a dharmsala of the guru which offers food,shelter and service all year round.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, the Rehat Maryada states that a sikh has no restriction on clothes, other than obviously the panj kakkar. I don't see how wearing jeans or living in a house with carpets has anything to do with celebrating a Christian religious festival. Do you think Sikhs should live in the caves or jungles restricted themselves from all modern/western customs which have nothing to do with religion? Children should have fun, but on vaisakhi, hola mohalla, Bandi chor and the diwas of our gurus and Mahaan shaheed.....not Christmas. Also, no apology?

WJKK WJKF I think you may have misunderstood my post, the above was asked as a question to sangat who may know living near sikh faith schools as there are none where I live. I agree with you that the satkaar and kadhar of the prophets of other faiths should be upheld, however that does not mean we should participate in all other none sikh celebrations like Christmas in my opinion. I base my opinion on many factors, gurmat tells us: paae gehae jab thae thumarae thab thae kooo aakh tharae nehee aaniyo | raam reheem puraan kuraan anaek kehai math eaek n maaniyo | O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions; sinmrith saasathr baedh sabhai bahu bhaedh kehai ham eaek n jaaniyo | sree asipaan kripaa thumaree kar mai n kehiyo sabh thohi bakhaaniyo |863| The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them. O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to write all this?.863. DOHRA sagal dhuaar ko shaadd kai gehiyo thuhaaro dhuaar | baahi gehae kee laaj as gobindh dhaas thuhaar |864| O Lord ! I have forsaken all other doors and have caught hold of only Thy door. O Lord ! Thou has caught hold of my arm; I, Govind, am Thy serf, kindly take (care of me and) protect my honour.864. The Rehat Maryada states: A)Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration. B)Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins' holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on fulfillment of wishes, the Vedas, the Shastras, the Gayatri,(Hindu scriptural prayer unto the sun) the Gita, the Quaran, the Bible, etc. However, the study of the books of other faiths for general self-education is admissible. This is why IMO, a sikh of the guru should not celebrate Christmas. I try and imagine the chaar sahibzade and great shaheed Sikhs like Dhan Dhan Shaheed Baba Jeevan Singh ji walking into my home at the end of the year during the time of the battle of chamtkaur, can you imagine what these Mahaan shaheed would say to me if I had my house lit up with a Christmas tree in the corner and my children waiting to get their presents from Saint Nicholas (Father Christmas) during the days that the youngest of our gurus sons were waiting to be tortured to death? These pyare pyare children of our guru were offered carts of toys as a bribe in order to leave their faith and accept Islam, which they declined, put their heads on their palms, giving their all for sikhi. As we all know, they were then tortured to death. However, under the name of Christmas, integration within a western society and simply being "fun" for our children, many of us today, offer our own children intisements and excitement as was offered as toys to our Mahaan sahibzade at a time of year within the sikh calendar where contemplation is needed. Why can't we save all this fun for vaisakhi?

WJKK WJKF Sangat Ji, Does anybody know whether sikh faith schools within the uk like nishkam in Birmingham display Christmas Trees or enact The Nativity Play with their students?

WJKK WJKFVeer ji, you quote my response and respond to me by insulting me. Do you understand what nimrata means? Secondly, the majority of kids within the uk have been heavily westernised and many do not know how to speak panjabi due to their parents not having the ability. Less numbers of teenagers attend gurdwara, hence why gurdware and generally the panth try and get the youth in by offering other services like the gym and sports. By celebrating the Christian holiday, "CHRIST MAS" is also a detrimental factor to the kaum, especially when at that very time, one of our own pants greatest battles was endured. If you wish to allow your children to believe in this "fat jolly fella in red" as you keep saying, who is a depiction of the CHRISTIAN SAINT, SAINT NICHOLAS, carry on. But it is contrary to the rehat maryada. Whether or not the indigenous population deem Christmas to be a Christian celebration or not, for a sikh it is simply manmatt. Like you suggest, if all the Sikhs around Europe think my opinion is ridiculous, please have a read of the rehat maryada. The Christmas Tree is a Pagan and Christian symbol. It can never be anything else. The nishaab Sahib is a sikh Symbol. It stands for all the gains and loses Sikhs gave to us. The Miri/Piri of a sikh strong. It can never be anything else. You and many othe Sikhs choose to celebrate Christmas when the battle of Chamkaur was engaged? You are an intelligent person, it's simply a contradictory message to a child who needs direction from their parents. Why do you think interfaith marriages are so high and permitted in our gurdware? All factors like these add up. Anyway, do as you please in the end, your personal life and residency is your own. Brother a polite benti to you, converse and agree/disagree with me as much as you please as this is a forum for different opinions, however we are all Sikhs here, so do not continue to personally insult me.

WJKK WJKF It's funny how people will justify themselves celebrating Christmas with so many endless reasons. Fact of the matter is whether or not the tree is pagan or a Christian symbol, if you live in a European country like the uk and get time of work, it should be spent with the family, especially kids contemplating on the gains and loses the panth went through at that particular time of the year. People can dress it up as they wish, but Christmas is a Christian celebration, the nativity play is enacted across children's schools whether their Christian or not. Christianity can never be taken out of Christmas. By decorating you home with trees or whatever, is only confusion for a young mind living in a multicultural society. We are Sikhs. We celebrate the sikh calendar, yet at the same time respecting our neighbours around us who may celebrate Christmas, Eid or Diwali.

WJKK WJKF To be honest bhen ji, I don't even think it's that. From most of the Muslims I have come across personally, obviously I can't say for all Muslims around the world, but it's a very male orientated lifestyle. The way in which they treat their own daughters, like marrying within family makes it clear that really they don't consider their daughters as "daughters", just objects. If you cant respect your sister, how can you then call or respect someone else's in a way. As our own history tells us, Muslims are not all without God or consideration for others, I only wish there were more of these Muslims being born today.

WJKK WJKF I just don't understand why Muslims don't condemn such acts openly wherever they are in the world, then when the world makes assumptions on all Muslims, there quick to say then play the victim. I feel bad for the sister in that horrible situation.

WJKK WJKF I find that the words "sabad" and "sahib" are mispronounced wrongly by many people when reading gurbani. Many people pronounce them as "Shabad" and "sebh". I was too a guilty party of this, until I started reading Gurmukhi. Hence why our gurus told us all to learn it. So glad I did!

WJKK WJKF Obviously it's best to judge a character on a individual basis, however from my own personal experiences I have found that there is a huge divide and difference of interpretation between the Orthodox Jew and unorthodox Jew. Every one has pro's and con's, some of the Jewish communities pro's like in Manchester are how they have held onto their faith with such certainty within a foreign land and how the kosher stamp which was produced in Salford, Manchester is recognised as a 100% kosher in Israel. The cons are as other posters have said, the orthodox not really intergrating or even talking to anyone else other than the Jewish. I find that all the Abrahamic faiths fail to recognise and give full equality to women. The unorthodox Jews are like some of our "Sikhs", who do everything gurmat and maryada tells us not to, but consider themselves to be religiously a sikh. The Jews, as history tells us have suffered terribly like the many black communities of the world. But they have held on to the tenets of their faith, which is commendable.

WJKK WJKF No problem veer ji

That's a tradition from India and Punjab done by many communities called kundh, like on the A.S Kang old song "kundh chuke tu mukhra dikha de". It's reet ravaaj but nothing to do with sikhi. It's like how a guy wears a pag, but trims his beard, or a girl wears a dumalla and then trims her eye brows or how kids simply don't wear nothing on their heads nowadays. It's all manmatt and against gurmat. As I said, all castes have pros and cons, only the Khalsa is perfect. Hence why I keep going on about anti caste.

SIKHO, we all better get are grammar right in these little arguments were having before JAGSAW SINGH comes on and goes sick at our lack of effort when writing lol. Starstriker, brother you never insulted me. I think wires have been crossed somewhere however I did insult you which I still feel bad for. We need Jeremy Kyle to be a mod on here.

WJKK WJKF Veer ji, I'm a Banda with 3 kids lol and me and star striker have made up.