jagjit_waheguru

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, Baba Harnam Singh is one of the few Sants who was actually saintly. Today so many people pretend to be sants, but as Gurbani says the Gursikhs are "virlee". Baba ji had pyaar with everyone. He had a very high jeevan. He was not your usually white chola sant, but someone who was a Saint-siphahi with Panthik dard. He took part in Panthik morchas, and was very close with Gursikhs like Bhai fauja Singh, Bibi Amarjit kaur, Baba Jarnail Singh ji and that whole generation of jujarhroos. His jeevan is written in Se kaneyie, which is a excellent book. If you have not read it, then I recently came across a bibi who is summarising it on the forum akj.org. The link is http://www.akj.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...der=asc&start=0 waheguru ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I agree. Never give them money. When I was studying at London Uni, whenever we did a sikh society event. Any langar left over would be dropped off at Waterloo bridge and given to the homeless. Up north, there is not really much of a homeless problem. But if I lived in toronto. I would ask all the local Gurdwaras on sunday, do give all their excess langar, rather than throwing it away. Collect it all one point and every sunday evening, go downtown to the same place every week and give it to the homeless free. That would be spreading Guru Ji message. waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, are you a Bob, Mickey, Dolly, George and Wally? You may think it is a strange question. So let me explain. What is it with the nickname culture in Sikhs? We may expect it in punjabi youth, and non-punjabi youth, but not Gursikhs. Today Kamaljit singh becomes kam, bhupinder singh becomes puppy or bob, Amandeep singh becomes wally, darshan kaur becomes dolly, sukhvinder singh becomes sukhi, etc. Infact the sangat is full of Steven, Goerge, Phulloo, Geeta, Sukhi, Deepa, kamli, and so forth. It may be hypoctical of me, because in my mona days, I also was regularly referred to as Jag. But the day I took Amrit, my father specifically said to all my friends and relatives, that I am now Amritdhari and only my Gursikhi name is to be used. So since it has always been Jagjit Singh. Sometimes I feel I am the only one in the UK sangat who always trys to call every Gursikh by there full name. Some youth have even tried and make a nickname for me. But I will never respond to any name other than Jagjit Singh. Sometimes if in the mood, then I will also give them a roasting for even trying to give me a nickname. We go to so much effort when a child is born to give them a Gurmat name from the Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib. There is a deep reason for this. The name of a Gursikh is very reflective of thier personality and jeevan. Think about it, does not Bhai Jeevan Singh have a Jeevan, did not Bhai Rama Singh become one with Rama, or even lets look back at the names that Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji gave his Pavittar Panj Pyares, or his Sahibzades. Just go through them in your mind, and they will bring a smile to your face, lalli to your cheeks, a warmth inside and a cool calm to your mind. Their names bring their jeevans to your mind. Sir William Shakespear wrote - "What is in a Name?" There is so much in a name. Your personality begins with your name. When we hear the name darshan kaur, she should so amazing in her jeevan that all wish to do her darshan, when we hear the Gurdip Singh, he should have the light of Waheguru shining from his face. Youth today, put so much emphasis on rehit and bana. This is because it sets your personality as a Gursikh. Your dumalla is high and has the pride of royalty. But then if you ask his name, the veer says, my name is bob, dave, george, puppy, sukhi, or Wally. Then it all falls apart. Instead if he says my name is Bhupinder Singh, Dalvir Singh, Gurmit Singh, Sukhjit kaur, or Amandeep Singh, then it fits. At a old Khalsa camp, I met a Gursikh called Khaniya Singh. During the camp, I witnessed him doing seva, and my heart just said, the name fits. It takes just as much effort to say the full name as it does the nickname. It is just our lazy minds, or the fact we think we may be "cool" that we use these. This is completely wrong. There is nothing "cool" about it. In fact it is highly disrespectful. What will happen in 20 years, what will our kids says. Singh says "Veer ji, who did seva in the Panj Payes at the samgam?" Bibi ji replies, "I think it was "Manj Singh, Dally Singh, Tip Top Singh, Wally and puppy". Singh ji, "Did Satta do keertan or was Mini, bhini, vinny, and ruby?" Bibi ji replies, "no, we should listen to bani not the keertani, but the keertani was dolly kaur." Pyare jio, we talk about assols. But these are real basics. Every Amritdahri should only use their full Gurmat name, and more than that build a jeevan reflective of that name blessed by Guru Ji. In Gurmat, there are no shortcuts, and in our Gurmat names we should not start the bad habit of shortcuts. It all starts here, one shortcut leads to another , to another, to another, then we wonder why do I have nothing? For all the Gursikhs, who I may have offended by using thier names in this post. You may be upset with me, but please, it is me who has offended you, or it you who answer to that name when others call you it. If so then it is you who has disrespected yourself. Or maybe you have not figured out that when someone gave you that name, they were actually taking the mickey out you. For an amritdhari, disrespecting your Gurmat name, should be like someone trying to knock your datsaar off. In the old days, people had so much respect for Singhs and Singhnia, that they always put Sardar and Sardani before their name, and always used their full name. Now them very names have become Satta and batta, Rinku and Tinku. If you use a nickname, then do ardas today, that Guru Maharaj bless me that never again may I answer when my full name is not used, and let me build a jeevan reflective of my name. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Pyare veer jio, you do good seva educating youth. Without causing offence. I would just like to point one thing out in the story. You may wish to change it before you put it on egroups, etc. When Baba Ajit Singh ji approached Guru Maharaj. He did not say, what has been written. "Dear father, my name is "Ajeet", "Unconquerable". I will not be conquered. Only death can conquer me. Permit me to go and make my life fruitful, dear father. If I can’t make everyone run away in the battlefield then I am not “Ajeet”.” This is not how Gursikhs or Shabizade speak. Gursikhs have a bole (language). Baba ji said humbly, "Maharaj, in the battlefield, I see the Light of your Amrit. Please bless me so that I may go and drink it. " Please think about it and you will understand. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, during the tsunami disaster the Uk aid agencies advised asian groups not to give any money to the PM funds, but only to the Disaster Emergency Fund or direct to Khalsa Aid or United Sikhs. The PM funds is not audited properly, and most funds go to paying for elections bribes, booze, drugs and a 5 star lifestyle for party workers. Personally I would advise everyone to give only to Sikh groups like the ones mentioned above. I always give to khalsa Aid via our local gurdwara. I know all the sevadaars personally and all the money is well spent o the ground. waheguru ji kakhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I am trying to avoid getting to much into repetitive debates. But in this case I would say. If we all look sincerely at Bhai Nand lal ji rehitnamas. Then the only way you can fulfil each rehitnama is by wearing a keski/dastaar. There is no other option, i.e. chunni, patka, etc. Please feel free to go through them carefully and you will see what I mean. I do not think bibian who chunnis or patka are wrong or bad or anthing. Often these things are just never pointed out to them. I would love to see a day when every amritdhari bibian adorns a dastaar. Then you will have a lot more role models for young bibians, and you will alot less problems of punjabi girls going away from sikhi. waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, the conversations are progressing in the office today. Yesterday afternoon, one person in the office brought a Daily mail newspaper. In it was an article about binge drinking. They had a woman reporter binge drink every day for 30 days and tested the effects. They have the "before" and "after" photograph on it. The 39 year looked quite young in the first picture, but looked over 50 in the second picture. The article was quite shocking on the health effects of binge drinking, anything from memory loss to diahorea, stomach problems, etc. Then there was the programme on TV yesterday called "what is in your christmas dinner". This showed the poor treatment and condition of turkeys. The factory farming thing is a complete scandal. Then you have the vegeatrians who say I do not eat meat, but eat fish, yet the still call themselves veges. A normal salmon has 6% fat, but a factory farmed one has 21% fat. In fact, the only healthy thing on the Xmas plate was the brussel sprout. So now, so far in the office they have reached the conclusion, that the Sikh lifestyle is the most healthy and forward looking lifestyle. However many of them said they would find it really hard to give up meat and booze. This is quite amazing, as I only pointed out a few things, but said very little. I allowed them to come to their own conclusions. But with Guru Maharajs kirpa, he is bringing some realisation to them. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, bhen ji, these dreams are just dreams. They are very different to having darshan. I know you are aware of this. The dreams is fine, but sometimes when we have these dreams, we should not confuse that with thinking we have made some accomplishment. This is because ego is a dangerous thing. You are inspired by it, that is good. but i would say, do regular Amrit vela, and you will experience alot. Very soon these things seem insignificant. In fact they are more of a distraction. Personally, I would advise you to not pay too much attention to it, and just move on. Instead pay much more attention to your daily hukamnamas, and implement them in your daily life. You will find that will be much more rewarding. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I returned to work today after spending 4 days at the UK North smagam. My work collegues shared stories about what happened over the last 4 days. Friday was the Office Xmas party, in which the company paid for all workers nationally to spend days on a large yacht with free alcohol. I have never attended any Xmas party, but from my mona days can guess what happens there. So all morning in the office, my collegues have been sharing stories about how drunk they got? who had an affair with who? whos eyebrows were shaved off? and so on. I remained quiet in the corner working in my department, doing stuff on the computer, while listening to sukhmani sahib on my iRiver. Until one of my friends asked me, what I did over the last 4 days, because I have been on annual leave. I told them I spent them in spiritual bliss at the smagam. They know what smagams are from previous conversations in the office about meditation, life and Sikhi. They find it hard to comprehend how people can spend hours meditating on keertan. The subject changed to what we were doing over Xmas and New Years. They all said, they will get drunk and legless. I said I will find other Gursikhs, and get "laha of Naam and Bani". After this we had a discussion on what I get from meditation and what they get from alcohol. In the end they all agreed, that getting drunk beyond the point where they cannot remember what they did, is not really having a "good time". When they thought about they were not really sure why they do it, other than because everyone else does it. Anyway, now that we all doing work again. I was just thinking, most of these people are older than me, and have more life experience. But I am so glad, that my Guru chose me to put me on his path. If he had not, that is what all of us would really be doing at weekends. Instead we have just spent a "laha filled weekend". Isn`t it great being a Gursikh! waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, it was a typo error, thanks for pointing it out. I have changed it, and will post more carefully in future. Guru ji makes the Amrit. No one has ever denied that. Programmes are organised jathebandies of Gursikhs as per the hukam of Akaal. Veer Shere punjab, your last point about being Panthik. I have been around long enough to realise that your achieve more Panthik good, by working in organised groups of Panthik Gursikhs. One man cannot achieve social change in the way that thousands working together can. As long as the interests of the group do not come before the interests of the Guru Khalsa Panth. This has never been the case with any of the groups I have done seva with. Plus groups like AKJ have not done bad. They took a mona Shere Punjab boy like me from Slough and introduced keertan, and then my Guru to me. This is not just me, but many of the boys who did seva in SP of old, many of them are now Amritdhari, with Guru Maharajs kirpa. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, Bhai satnam Singh will be bringing a coach from Southall to the rainsbhai. many Singhs and singhni will be coming in there cars from both sides of London. Otherwise Bharat Coach comes from Southalla nd slough every morning at 9 am and get to Bradford at 2pm. Let us know you are coming and we will arrange for you to be picked up from the bus station. Accomodation for bibian is arranged and will not be at the gurdwara. waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, it is currently being printed and will be out at the weekend. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Pyare jio, the next Amrit sanchaar organised by Akhand Kirtani Jatha UK will be on this Saturday, 17th December 2005. It will be as part of the National AKJ UK Youth Smagam in Bradford. It will be held in conjunction with the Rainsbhai at Siri Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara, Leeds Road, Bradford. Can all Ablakhiyees (individuals) ensure they are at the Gurdwara Sahib by 10pm. You must do full keshi ishnaan, wear all 5 kakkars, and must be focussed in your mind to dedicate your mind, body and soul to your Guru. If you do not have suitable kakkars, then they will be provided by AKJ UK. Please ensure suitable dress, i.e. chola or kurta pyjama for males, and salwar kameez for bibian. If you have any questions regarding the Amrit Sanchaar, you can contact Jagjit Singh on 07985 112528. If you have questions on Gurmat or other nature and wish the consultation of elder Gursikhs, then Jathedar Bhai Jarnail Singh and Bhai Saun Singh will be at the Smagam from Thursday. We advise all Gursikhs wishing to take this step to prepare for it sincerely. Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev Ji advises us to think of our mind as a field. Prepare the soil, look after it, water it, and make it strong, so that when the seed is placed, the soil will allow it to fruit into a magnificent crop. Similarly in your mind and body. Prepare your Rehit, Nitnem and Roop. Spend these days before the Amrit Sanchaar doing as much Mool mantar paath as possible. Do not get distracted by idle talk and maya. If you have any last minutes worrries and issues, then consult Jeevan wale Gursikhs. Only take Amrit when every doubt in your mind is erased and you are ready to dedicate life, body and soul to the Guru and The Guru Khalsa Panth. In the jatha, we do not look for numbers, but we ask all ablkhayees, to take Amrit knowing the responsibilities of an Amritdhari and realising the Value of the Gift of Naam that Guru ji will give you. As stated earlier, if anyone wishes to discuss and do sangat, attend the Smagam, and recieve the blessings of the sangat, and do not be afraid to approach the elders. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh -------------------- One God: Waheguru One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji. One Group : Guru Khalsa Panth! This should be the Motto of Our Generation

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Pyare jio, the next Amrit sanchaar organised by Akhand Kirtani Jatha UK will be on this Saturday, 17th December 2005. It will be as part of the National AKJ UK Youth Smagam in Bradford. It will be held in conjunction with the Rainsbhai at Siri Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara, Leeds Road, Bradford. Can all Ablakhiyees (individuals) ensure they are at the Gurdwara Sahib by 10pm. You must do full keski ishnaan, wear all 5 kakkars, and must be focussed in your mind to dedicate your mind, body and soul to your Guru. If you do not have suitable kakkars, then they will be provided by AKJ UK. Please ensure suitable dress, i.e. chola or kurta pyjama for males, and salwar kameez for bibian. If you have any questions regarding the Amrit Sanchaar, you can contact Jagjit Singh on 07985 112528. If you have questions on Gurmat or other nature and wish the consultation of elder Gursikhs, then Jathedar Bhai Jarnail Singh and Bhai Saun Singh will be at the Smagam from Thursday. We advise all Gursikhs wishing to take this step to prepare for it sincerely. Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev Ji advises us to think of our mind as a field. Prepare the soil, look after it, water it, and make it strong, so that when the seed is placed, the soil will allow it to fruit into a magnificent crop. Similarly in your mind and body. Prepare your Rehit, Nitnem and Roop. Spend these days before the Amrit Sanchaar doing as much Mool mantar paath as possible. Do not get distracted by idle talk and maya. If you have any last minutes worrries and issues, then consult Jeevan wale Gursikhs. Only take Amrit when every doubt in your mind is erased and you are ready to dedicate life, body and soul to the Guru and The Guru Khalsa Panth. In the jatha, we do not look for numbers, but we ask all ablkhayees, to take Amrit knowing the responsibilities of an Amritdhari and realising the Value of the Gift of Naam that Guru ji will give you. As stated earlier, if anyone wishes to discuss and do sangat, attend the Smagam, and recieve the blessings of the sangat, and do not be afraid to approach the elders. waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh -------------------- One God: Waheguru One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji. One Group : Guru Khalsa Panth! This should be the Motto of Our Generation

waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, as far as I am aware, I do not think this is accurate. Historians have found links from gangu brahmin, to nehru, not mahatma gandhi. nehru was the prodigy of Gandhi, and not part of his family. The family of nehru is linked to Gangu. This is why they changed their surname to nehru, which means "those who lived near the river". Nehru`s daughter Indira used the name Gandhi for political mileage. Gandhi was racists to blacks and all minorities, he deeply believed in the caste system. He wanted a india run by Brahmins, and not British. He is a person who history has misjudged. waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I have been asked by the sangat to send the programme for the National Youth smagam which is starting this Thursday till Saturday at Bradford. Everyday will start will Amrit vela. Gursikhs are free to start as early as they wish, however scheduled is 3am. After Nitnem there will be Asa di // keertan on everyday. After some rest, the day schedule will be based around Veechaar and learning. On Thursday veechaar will be based around the booklet "Naam,Naam da Data Satguru"by Bhai sahib. On Friday, veechar will be based around the book "Sachkhand Darshan" by Bhai sahib. This will also be inconjunction with discussion between youth and elders that are present on various subjects. Also there will opportunities to learn keertan, paath, learn how to make dheg, How to do parkash/sukhasan, etc. The Saturday veechar is currently open Question & Answers. Afterwards, the bradford youth have arranged for youth to relax or do activities including football, wrestling, boxing, pellet rifle shooting, basketball, etc. Early afternoon, we will be doing Sukhmani sahib, then Rehras sahib and evening keertan. The Smagam is based at Singh sabha Gurdwara, Bradford, and then the Rainsbhai will be at Siri Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara, Leeds Road, Bradford. As mentioned originally in the first message below. Kirtanees from UK and abroad will be attending the smagam, but the aim of the smagam is to encourage and youth, and as much time as possible will be given to youth in the smagam to do seva in every area of the smagam. Accomodation has been arranged for all sangatan, at the Gurdwara, or at the houses of the local Gursikhs. For bibian, accomodation has been specifically arranged at a local houses, so that all the bibian can be together and make new Gursikh friends. Some elder gursikhs like Bhai Amolak Singh, have already arrived in bradford and keertan and veechaar seesions have started already. For further details, or if you need to picked up from bus and train stations,please contact myself on email, or Bhai Kamaljit Singh on 07971185457. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji kefateh > Subject: National AKJ UK Youth Smagam in memory of 4 Shahibzade > > Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh > > Pyare jio, as in previous years, AKJ UK will be doing a National Youth > Smagam between Thursday 15th December to Saturday 17th December. The Smagam > is in memory of the 4 Sahibzade, who led the most exemplary lives and are > the best examples of Gursikhi for modern Sikh youth. Jeevans that were based > upon Seva, Simran and Sacrifice. > > This is an ideal opportunity for all Gursikhs in UK, especially youth to > take off a few days. Leave the baggage of our worldly lives behind, and come > together with the single aim of Gurbani and Naam abyass. Share the highest > ideal of Gurmat in keertan and singing the praises of Akaal. Also do sangat > of other like minded Gursikh! s from around the country and learn how to build > a more focussed Jeevan for the betterment of the Guru Khalsa Panth. What > value is our lives without Naam? > > If you have never attended before, and yearn to meet young Sikhs who have a > spiritual focus, then this Smagam is for you! > > The Smagam will be held at Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Bradford, with the > Rainsbhai at Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara, Leeds Road, Bradford. Coach > transport for the rainsbhai is available from Birmingham and > Slough/Southall. Further transport will be available from derby, and other > parts of the midlands. > > The Leeds and Bradford sangat will be providing accommodation for all > Gursikhs. Special arrangements will also be made for bibian, so they can all > stay together and do abyass and sangat with other like minded bibian from > around the country, as well as fully taking part in the smagam. > > Gursikh keertanis from around UK, and others visiting from abroad will be > doing seva. However, it is the policy of this smagam to dedicate as much > time as possible to Youth keertanis, who do not always get time at main > rainsbhais to encourage them to further their abyass of Gurbani. > > So a humble benti to all. Take out a few days, to share the experience of a > spiritually focussed Sangat, drencing itself in the Bani of the 10 Guru > Sahibaan, and the Greatest Bhagats to live on this earth in the presence of > the Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji. > > More details on poster attached. For further information and to book > accommodation, contact Bhai Kamaljeet singh ji on 07971 185 457 or email > myself. Youth travelling by train, coach or bus to attend the full smagam, > please let us know, and we will arrange to pick you up from the stations.> > > Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, veer kharko4life has said everything that needs to be said. Both sides of the dharna arguiment have been presented, it for others to read and decide. Veer namstang, I was busy at the weekend. so did not listen that your file, but will do so and get back to you, because you are so adamant and enraged by it. As far as udases/nirmalas, etc. You have sent a drawing of a plant with names of Gursikhs on it. Clearly you are impressed by it, but sorry if I am not too impressed at all. Then you have sent a picture of Sant Attar Singh not wearing a kirpan. I have a lot of respect for him, and give daswand and have given land to Akal Academy. They are very strict from what I have seen, especially on kaakars and dastaar. Just because you attach a nirmalla tag on every Gursikh in the Panth who has done something, does not make them that. people who makes lineages add every name to themselves. But I believe in the lineage of the Guru Khalsa Panth, so I do not need to mention any name. For example, Sant Attar Singh was also part of the Panch khalsa Diwan, which believed in very strict rehit. So please forgive if I am not like you and just accept the first thing that is said to me. What is the context of this picture, I leave to you to explain. However does this mean kirpan is not essential for an Amritdhari? NO, it does not. Does it means Kirpans are not essential for Amrit sanchaar? No it does not. Veer ji, let me explain some things to you, as you jump to assumptions very easily. For example, your whole kattchie bani theory of Sahib Siri Amar das ji, based on Prithvi Chand, who was actually Sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev jis brother. KHALSA vs Udasis/nirmala Sahib Siri Gobind Singh ji created just the Guru Khalsa Panth. It is a Niralla (distinct) Panth. It has a Roop, bani, bana, rehit, etc which are all prescibed by Guru ji. There is one rule for everybody and everyone adheres to it. Basically it is One God: Waheguru, One Guru: Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji and One Group: Guru Khalsa Panth. In the Panth, this is all accepted and respected. Over time discrepancies have come up on rehit. So over a 30+year period discussions took place and the Akal Thakht Rehit maryada was set. It has set the minimum standard for Amritdharis to be part of the Panth. Many youth may criticize it, because of 3 banis, meat, etc, but very few have actually read, and actually it is far more strict than many understand. If Gursikhs wish to follow more rehit as some jathas do, than no one stops them, but they cannot follow any less Rehit. The minimum standards has been set. Nirmallas,udasis, who take Amrit, keep kesh, and follow the minimum standard are perfectly welcome, but if they think they cannot keep kesh, not take Amrit, or adhere to the Akal Thakht rehit maryada, etc, but still consider themselves as part of the Panth because of lineage link or something, then they are mistaken. Everyone has to adhere by the minimum standard. I have not criticized those who do, only those who do not, or those who colluded with Anti-Panthik forces and killed Singhs, or grassed them up. Guru ji only created this one group - The Guru Khalsa Panth. This Group is eternal. Jathas, Misls, and even Empires, etc, will come and go as we have seen, but the only eternal thing is the Guru Khalsa Panth. Guru ji did not create multiple groups, with differents rules, which contradict each other. It is "Khalsa mera roop hai Khas", not nirmala, udasis, etc. Further as far as these so-called groups. Lets be clear - Sahib Siri Guru Nanak Dev ji rejected Siri Chand, and instead chose Sahib Siri Angad dev ji as his successor. The reasons why you are well aware of. Similarly the same rules apply today. It is the Khalsa, that is accepted. If you wish to have this debate of KHALSA VS nirmallas, udasis, then it starts at Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji because the first udasis was Siri Chand. If you wish to have this debate then you are welcome on the thread pointed out by veer kharkoo 4 life. If not, then I believe we have come to a conclusion because you seem to have nothing substantial to offer. waheguru ji kakhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, in addition to the schools mentioned above by Damdami Taksal and sants, there are many more. Sikh Missionary College has almost 2000 units in Punjab and throughout India, plus courses in many schools and universities. They have also purchased land to build a large Sikh university which they are building. AKJ has Smagams throughout India, and multiple programmes every week in villages and prataan Gurdwaras. Akal Academy is in the middle of a large expanison project building schools throughout Punjab. Thousands of people take Amrit every month from the Thakhts administered by SGPC. We may think this is alot and must be making a difference. But we have to look at what other influences in Punjab and india are doing. There are huge deras built in Punjab by Ashutosh, baniaare wale. There are very few villages left in Punjab which do not have a Radhasomai dera. Naranakaris have developed into an effective Parchar movement which is now interntaional. RSS has crores of funding from the average tax payer. The population vacum in Punjab due to genocide and immigration has been filled by Biharis. Sikhs rather than bringing them into Sikhi, are pushing them away because of caste and other issues. Drugs which were not existant in Punjab during the 80`s and up to 1992, then flooded it which such speed that it is highly suspicious. They are freely available with Punjab police openly involved in racket. The culture of Punjab has changed with its music being hijacked by company cashing in on "nakedness", which is leading to whole change in the way Punjab thinks, behaves, dresses, especially in Youth. Combined with the TV revolution of westernism and hindu serials, the next generation will know very little of what Panjab was like before. We can complain, globalisation is something that cannot be ignored. Others take advantage of it, Sikhs seem to be increasing left behind. So if you look at the situation in its entirety, alot of parchaar happenes in Punjab, but it is outwieghed by the many other influences. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I did this course when I first came into sikhi. I highly recommend it. The Punjabi is very simple and good for practice. The booklets are very straightforward, but informative. Doing this course gives a new Sikh very good foundations on Sikh history, Gurbani veechar, and knowledge of Panth and Panthik Rehit maryada. This is essential to understand what is happening in the Panth, plus it will remove many superstitions and false beliefs that so-called sikhs have. Like I said, the course is basic but very informative. A very good investment of your time. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, over the last two weeks, I was busy at work, but also had some time free due to internal computer problems at work. While waiting I used this time to go on 2-3 messageboards, rather than the one that I usually just skim through. Next week back working all day again. While going on the messageboards, I made an observation which I would like to share. Considering the education and number of Gursikhs who share veechaar on so many boards, it is amazing the attitudes, and language sometimes. Words like "kanjar, or kanjari", some open swear words, and something even worse . Essentially we are all Waheguru`s children who come to learn. If we analyse our actions. We go to great lengths to protect ourselves from the 5 vikaars when it comes to food and dress. We do not dress to induce vikaars in anyone. So why are we so loose with our language? Should we not be even more strict with our language and attitude so that we do not induce vikaars in others? We can quote the bani, and know that Gursikhs should only be softly and sweetly spoken, but also not slyly and cleverly to induce hurt, anger in others aswell. The same when we write. Whatever comes out of our mouths is a reflection of what is really in us. On some boards, some people have hidden agendas, others they are just insulting, or threatening to others, some are just cheeky. Not of this behaviour is worthy of any Gursikh, but it is all Gursikhs who do this. When a Gursikh speaks it should be like water to a fire. It takes away the heat, and brings calm and balance. When we read messages or posts, ones instinct can usually pick up the intentions of the other poster. If it is a paap for us to wear clothes that creates vikkaars in the eyes of others, then it is a far greater Paap for us to write or say something which creates vikaars in others. Some of us write with our real names. We stand by what we write and are judged by others accordingly. Many have hidden IDS. Some abuse that by being cheeky, clever or worse. We think we get away with this behaviour because nobody knows, and nobody sees. But Guru ji and chitaar gupt records and the Dharam Raj judges, if we induce vikkars in others. Reading some threads one is amazingly inspired, reading others one wonders about Gursikhs. Would it not be excellent is every Gursikhs wrote sincerely, without causing offense intentionally, without predjudice, and without hate. Would it not be even better if sikhs were so civil in their behavior that the world looked upon them. Would it not be even better if when every Gursikh wrote something, it brought calmness and sehaj, and induces pyaar and inspiration in each other. Then when new people come, they will stay, grow in their spirituality and collectively as a sangat we would strive forward. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, many of you have raised many points, so looks like this will be a long post. So please bear with me. "PUNCH AND JUDY" VEECHAR Pyare jio, to nick a phrase from David Cameron at the moment. Veer Namstang, I have noticed in the 3 threads that you have debated with me, you have completely ignored much of what I write and the points, never really answering the question, and just going off on tangents, or dismiss everything. This is only going to lead to "Punch and Judy" veechaar, which is not beneficial to anyone, and not condusive to learning. So please if you wish to debate, and always wish me to respond to your posts, which I have always done, then please, as I have stated earlier respond to my questions aswell. If we are not here to learn and share, and hopefully eventually come to common conclusions, then there is little purpose. NAAM SIMRAN Pyare jio, you have asked me to check out your files. I am sorry, but at work we are not allowed to download anything. You and another veer are arguing as to who it is. I will leave that to you Gursikhs to sort out. From your description, I can guess what is on it. There are alot of people who do simran in many different ways. Some do it loud, others agressively, I have even seen a video of Naamdaris who did it so agressively, that their dastaars come off. Personally this stuff has never really attracted me. I have written before about people shaking heads while doing simran, and stuff. However I choose not to judge. Let me explain why? Personally in my life, I also do simran in many different ways. At Amrit vela, I will do it loud, as it helps me keep awake, especially after a hard days at work. But on days that are not cold, I will walk around my garden at Amrit vela and do simran. It keeps me fresh, and while walking, I do simran internally and quietly. During the day, I will do it internally and quietly. In evenings, I will do it loudly when doing rehras and listening to keertan, because I usually get more Rass. In rainsbhais, sometimes, I sit on stage and do it with the sangat, other times I sit in the sangat and do it internally. The point is, we all have our own ways of doing simran, and we do it differently at different times, depending on our level of tiredness, sangat, time, and many other factors. I enjoying doing it internally because I appreciate sehaj. I would like it to be a fundamental part of my jeevan, it is easy to have sehaj for moments or for days, but not so easy to make it a permanent part of our jeevan. But I try. Is my stage of internal simran higher than someone elses stage? Only Guru knows, but I doubt it. I would never judge anyone doing simran, no matter how they do it. For someone to do simran in kaljug is high enough. They are in tune with their Guru and their Guru will guide them, correct them, protect them. To break someones samaadhi is a Paap. Similarly to stop someone`s simran, in our eagerness to say, do what we do, is also wrong. How do we know we are right and they are wrong? Gurbani says do simran loud, and also grind the simran inside us, and also kooko simran, in some places. So just because we may prefer internal simran, it does not mean mean we are higher or lower than anyone. In my abyass, Guru ji and given me knowledge and revealed things. I take these as blessings. I equally assume it happenes to everyone else, because many would not do simran otherwise. So who I am to judge them? If you consider yourself advanced and capable of judging others simran, then that is your perogative. I definately would not do something like that. In conclusion, let everyone do simran as they please, loud, kooka, internal, quiet, etc. Guru ji will direct them himself with Rass, and blessings. If someones asks me about Naam and simran, I direct them to the Panj Pyares, who are the best people to answer any questions. HYPOCRISY - KHALSA OR MULTIPLE GROUPS Veer namstang ji, you have acussed me of hypocrisy, in reference to veer Singhmota comments about AKJ being anti-pathic because they do not do katha at smagams. I responded by saying many do katha at local gurdwaras, but the purpose of smagams is different. Plus keertan is the highest katha. Because I stated we should not criticise Shaheed jathbandian, you have compared it with Udasis and nirmallas, saying I was a hypocrite for critizing them. Veerji, I am sure I am a hypocrite at times. We all try not to be, but I have to accept I am far from perfect. In this case, I would say I do not accept your label. Maybe I should be more careful in selecting my words, but let me explain why I disagree with you. You call me a Tat Khalsa. I personally do not like this because I believe it assumes their are non-Tat Khalsa. I prefer just Khalsa. A Khalsa is Guru jis Amritdharis. I fundamentally believe my Guru gave one message for humanity. I believe in the concept of One God : Waheguru, One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji, One Group: Guru Khalsa Panth. My Guru created this path and created this Khalsa. He gave us one path, one rehit, one message and never contradicted himself. I do not believe Guru ji created multiple groups, with different rehits, different rules, especially some which do not require kesh, or Amrit, or other fundamental aspects of Sikhi. I do not see groups that are Panthik and Khalsa, like AKJ, Taksal, Sikh missionary, Old SGPC, and many, many others, doing things like tying Gursikhs to trees and burning them, raping women, living off Sikh institutions like Nankana Sahib. Neither act as touts against the khalsa during the Moghul and British raj. Udasis, etc have done this. You cannot deny it. If you believe we are wrong, and our understanding of udasis and nirmallas is just what Niddar says. Then please feel free to separate and explain your understanding, and how it contradicts what Niddar says. If you wish to debate this further, then feel free. Already on the end of the first thread I posed you 19 questions, which you totally ignored. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15251 Start a thread at any time, and answer them questions. If we really debate this, then lets start from sahib Siri Guru Nanak Dev ji and work our way to year 2000. SINGHMOTA Pyare jio, veer singhmota, You leave me for words. We have never even talked, and you send a a threatening PM, out of the blue. Then you do it with a hidden ID? Maybe you are used to people being intimidated by your email, but I have grown up in Slough during the 80`s fighting pakistani gangs, chalvey boys, etc, then HUT/Al Majoroun at uni, then BNP/Combat 18 in Yorkshire. I am not proud, but neither am the type to get intimidated by an email. Then you next send a message saying AKJ are not Panthik because they do not katha at smagams, which is really silly. Now you ask further silly questions. Pyare jio, do you honestly expect me to take anything you say seriously? I just think you are all over the place, and highly errattic. If you have a problem with anyones keertan, then just send Guru ji one of your emails, and you will get your answer. Whatever your issues and agendas is for You and Guru. They are far beyond me, so forgive me if I do not take you seriously at all. IS BANI SIMPLE OR COMPLICATED Pyare jio, some of you disagree with my statement that apart from bhagat bani , most bani is straightforward. I agree with you bani is simple, but also can be an never-ending ocean, if one where to dig so deep. Veer Namstang has mentioned the jap ji sahib katha. Thats is fine. I am sure it inspires and impresses many. Personally I am more analytical. We can write a whole book on just "ik Onkaar", just because we can, does not mean we have to everytime? For those who like long explanations, they have access it. I prefer to not create a mental block in youth that Gurbani is hard to understand, and always try and get youth to do sehaj paths, and interact with bani. Over time, we all appreciate the depth of bani, it is a natural process. VEERS GURU MANEYO GRANTH, QUEST 4 AKAAL & OTHERS Pyare jio, I appreciate the nature of your views. Myself and Kharkoo4Life have presented one side and you have presented the other with the orginal posts by the bibi. It is up to the sangat to think about and decide. Pyare jio, just to clarify the points that you have added. We all agree Gurbani is eternal, and Dhadi vaars, kavisherees, etc are part of Gurmat or Panthik. One veer/bhain has claimed there is no diference with Katha and Dharnaas. Another has mentioned Sant Jarnail Singh as someone who does dharnas. I disagree there is alot of difference between katha and dhaarnas. Katha is an explanation based specifically on Bani. It never changes the composition of it. Sant Jarnail Singh ji is a Gursikh, that I have the utmost Satkar for. His speeches moulded my sikhi, and I believe he is far more than just a Sant, he was a Sant Siphaahi, a Soorma. I do take exception to calling him a dhaarna wale sant. Yes, he may of on a couple of occasions done kasvisaree, or poems, like "Sir jaave ta javee, Mera Sikhi Sidak na javve." These are poems or kavisahree which are common in Sikh history. There are many others. But at no point did Sant ji every get a waaja, take the fist line of a shabad, sing it, then add the second line himself. He would never of dreamed of it. Please show any video of him doing this? He always had another Gursikh who read bani, which he did katha of. Just because he did a couple of peoms, or kavisharees in speeches, does not make a dharnaaa - waaja wale baba. Pyare jio, at no point have I ever made a negative statement about Rarewale sants, or any other sants that you have mentioned. No doubt they have done alot of parchaar, especially in rural areas. Veer Quest 4akaal seems to be upset about the ram rai comment. Let me clarify that, it was not comparing these sants to Ram rai in a derogatory manner. What I meant was ram rai changed bani to please a Moghul Emporer, whihc was wrong. These sants changes lines to create understanding in the sangat. They wish to inspire to Amrit which is fine, but let me remind you of my initial comments at the beginning of the thread. "Gursikhs do alot of parchaar. I personally think dhaarnas are very effective on rural punjab population. You have 3 types of kathakaars. Firstly very technical ones like Sant Singh Maskin. Then spiritual gurbani ones like Bhai Jasvir Singh khanne wale. Then we have dhaarnas wale sants. Everyone has there preferred choice. However as youth rather than accepting what we see, should we not be going forward. I see no reason why any of these dhaarnaa wale sants cannot put some more effort in using purely Gurbani like Bhai jasvir Singh Khannewale. I do believe it may even have more impact. " I fundamentally believe if all tapes of dharna keertan, had only pure keertan, with all the people who listen to them, it would be far more beneficial to the sangat who listens to it. It is the Paras kala of bani. Surely the more impact the better. We keep hearing the rural people do not understand it. But they understood it fine when sant jarnial singh did katha, sant singh maskin did katha, and so many others. When you create a dharnaa, you just change the last lines. Why put that effort in? Why not just explain the last line to the sangat in your katha like Sant Jarnial singh, Sant Singh Maskin, and Bhai Jasvir Singh Khannewale do. If you do not believe Dhaarnaa, is keertan, then what can one say, other than we just agree to disagree. But most sangat cannot distinguish, and do consider it keertan. In slough, I have heard elderly bibian tell Granthis who read Gurbani right, that they are reading it wrong, just because they have memorised some tape of dharna. At the end of the day, Bhai kharkoo4life and myself have presented our viewpoint, and other Gursikhs have presented theirs. Waheguru ji kakhalsa, wahegurujikefateh

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I assume the full list of books are available from Pingalwara. Off the top of my head, I believe the booklet was called "Sikh bibian de Pehrava", but I will check to confirm. If you get a chance, then also read Bhagat jis booklets on Naam and environmentalism. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kefateh Pyare jio, now the silly post is out of the way. Just one more benti. Veer kharko4life has covered alot in terms of Katchie bani. Just to add "Shabad Guru Soorat tun Chela". The Shabad is the Guru. These have been written and cannot be changed. Otherwise what difference is that to what Nirankaries and other sects do. I am not comparing sants to them, but just emphasising the Shabads as written, compiled or composed by Guru ji are eternal, with Paras kala, are perfect and nothing else is required. Guru ji specifically states in Gurbani, that there is no middleman, like in other religions. A soul has a direct link with Waheguru. Gurbani is the medium for this. So the role of any parcharak is to join a soul to gurbani, so the soul can connect to akaal. hence via katha, keertan, history, etc, our aim to take non-sikhs and connect them to Bani. It makes no sense taking non-sikhs to kaatchie bani, so they can connect to bani , so they can connect to Akaal. You are adding something new to the equation, when there is no need. If all paracharaks do katha and keertan of Gurbani, then there is no need to kathachie bani. Bani is not that hard to understand that you need to create a new composition, because you will find, many people will just connect to them compositions and not move on the next level. Plus where does this leave the Sakhi of Ram Rai? Bhagat bani can be complicated, but most bani is straightforward. Most paracharks can explain bani, after sincere study. Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev Ji intentionally made Gurbani straight forward, just like his actions, words, were simple in their beauty. sahib Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji intentionally made the Gurmukhi script very simple aswell. We should encourage all to join direct to bani. Bani is the food of the soul. Pyare jio, there is no need for any other meduim. waheguru ji ekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, veer ji, I did not realise it was silly post day. AKJ smagams do what they say, i.e. Akhand kirtan. It does not mean katha is anti-panthic. It just means they do Akhand kirtan, as Gurbani states, "App Naam japo, Aavra Naam Japavo". AKJ does have kathakaars. Giani Amolak Singh, Bhai Joginder Singh leicester, even the likes of Bhai Jasvir Singh Khannewale, have links to the jatha in the past. Even people like myself, do katha in english and punjabi at local Gurdawaras on Sundays. Plus katha is veechar, like is done in camps, messageboards, etc, and there are plenty of Gursikhs worldwide who do that. However the highest katha is keertan and Paath. After listening to katha that inspires a person, the person moves on to Gurbani paath and keertan. Katha is just a medium to create understanding and inspirational. But the food of a Gursikh is Paath and Keertan. I hope that is clear. Veer ji, rather than trying to change what jeevan wale Gursikhs do, learn from them and see why they do the things they do. Plus I do not think Shaheed jathebandees needs lectures on being Panthik from us. Their history and legacy speaks for itself. Plus veer ji, do not send threatening PMs, they do not impress me, neither affect what I will say. I was going to say this to you before, but I forgot. waheguru i kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh A simple and straight answer is required. Was it Gurbani or NOT? 138332[/snapback]