DTF

Just to correct you on one point Quantavius. Your point about a firearm is far from comical but very relevant to American Amritdhari's. Kirpan refers to any shastar (weapon) that we are able to access and utilise with which to do "kirpa" via defending the weak from oppression. Thus, as per my limited understanding (and certain Sikh schools of thought) a glock, a spear or any weapon that the said Khalsa has access to are indeed Kirpan. Bear in mind that matchlocks were used in 1699. There is also an argument that 5 kakkar was actually a subsequent corruption of Guru Sahib's original invocation to the Khalsa Panth that the Khalsa should always keep kes and have panj shastar and be tyaar bar tyaar at all times. We have to ask ourselves would Guru Sahib require African Khalsa Sikhs with long dreadlocks to wear kangha given that Sikhi is universal, 100% practical, fully progressive with the times and eternally applicable.

Balkaar Singh Bhai Sahib please read into Professor Padam's (false) allegation into who the King of Anandpur in the referred to Charitar actually (supposedly) is and I am pretty sure you will subsequently arrive at the same conclusion that Quantavius has already reached. The intent of the writer imho was not to impart moral guidance but rather to denigrate Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj at the behest of anti-Sikh (Mughal and biprenvaad) forces. I will try expand on this later as i see that sincere Sikhs like yourself and Kira Singh that I 100% respect may have been reading rhetorical material which is purported to promote Sikhi but in fact does everything but.

In terms of a possible solution to the wider issue ... a possible idea that the Panth should look into possibly is: 1. Anand Karaj being reserved for Amritdhari Sikhs 2. A Sikh Marriage Blessing Ceremony for all Kesdhari, Sehajdhari and those marriages where a former non-Sikh spouse is not becoming Amritdhari. We should still strive to ensure education about Sikhi for such couples to realise the importance of raising their children as Sikhs so that we can do greater good for humanity via Sarbat da Bhala. Simply blocking all those non-Amritdhari's that wish for their marriage to be blessed at a Gurdwara is a recipe for disaster that will simply alienate them and their children away from Sikhi permanently leading to the guaranteed demographic decline of Diaspora Sikh populations.

This Bansal is an absolutely disgrace. Quite honestly he deserves to be beaten to a pulp for using the same word that Hindu's and Muslims used and use against Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji. To Sikhs Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji is amongst the bravest of the brave and one of the legendary Gurmukhs of our Panth. But in the eyes of Muslims they labelled our Gursikh as a Bihari chuhra as they could not fathom how Gurdwara Sri Sis Ganj Sahib stands in Delhi to this day in recognition of the unmatchable bravery of Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji. Whereas Muslims and Hindu's don't even allow these brethren of ours into Mandirs & Mosques, Guru Sahib said "Rangrete Guru ke Bete" and Misl Shaheedian and the bravery of Mazhabi ancestry Sikhs exemplifies that Sikhi is the only religion for all the oppressed peoples within India & globally. Star Striker Ji no Sikh can defend that dog. It shouldn't even matter where one stands on the topic. His outburst was simply unforgivable. He needs to make a public apology accepting his wrongdoing and resign from any position of responsibility at the said Gurughar (as well as learn about Sikhi and great Gursikhs the Panth has been blessed with). Brother that's not Hundal's doing. This story makes good newsprint for the media anyway as it enables our enemies to paint us in a similar light to the Muslims. Sikhi is the most progressive faith but they want to present us as cavemen. Having said that Muslim men can happily marry Christian and Jewish women at every single Mosque out there. But Sikh men in contrast are being blocked from even doing that when the overwhelmingly majority of people with Sikh fathers who had Anand Karaj with erstwhile non-Sikh female spouses (who embraced Sikhi via Anand Karaj) consider themselves Sikh today as a consequence. Agreed Jonny Ji these fake Abrahamic and Hindutva cults that do not allow women to marry non-believers or believers of the wrong caste have no right to lecture us on our Panth's internal matter. The problem is we have made this matter public domain via previous non-peaceful protests. You're absolutely right as usual Singh Ji. We need to shut these corrupt Gurdwara committee's and create merged single Sangat Gurdwara's so that we have greater Sangat (united in each individual locality) in each Gurdwara, enabling better quality leadership, with greater transparency and accountability and where biraderi as an apartheid marker cannot be allowed to infect the wider Panth. I don't think we have 25years to sort this. We need to ensure united single Sangat Gurdwara's become a reality (by merger of existing Sangats) between now and 2021. If we don't stop the rot every single pind in Punjab is going to have multiple Gurdwara's and we're looking at 5 million current Sikhs being converted into Hindutva slaves by the Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid franchise mandirs proliferating as we speak. This evil dog Bansal exemplifies the type of so-called bhekhi Sikh keen on 5 million Sikhs leaving the Panth between now and the 2021 census.

Brilliant post Big T. 99% of what it is all about is what we are doing in our offline lives for Panth ki Jeet and Sarbat da Bhala. The two most important aspects of us doing our bit for Sikhi are in relation to the time we personally devote to advance Sikhi offline in the real world and the physical money that we can commit, raise and earn to forward that agenda. Forums are not the be all and end all but are a sideshow to learn from other Sikhs, to understand opposite points of views, to rally collectively at strategic times and oppose those viewpoints being pushed into the faith that we consider against Gurmat and contrary to the long term growth of Sikhi globally. The most important issues we face as a Panth are the plague of drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, cancer, illiteracy and poverty afflicting millions within the Panth in Punjab. Obviously there are other issues such as political prisoners not being released but these affect fewer Sikhs and whilst important we cannot ignore millions to prioritise on the few but maintain a commensurate balance (as our political prisoners also put the Panth first). Obviously we have Diaspora issues of many of the youth having no clue what Sikhi stands for and making negative lifestyle and marriage choices as a result. Your meetup idea to network with other Sikhs is a good idea though I do believe a Gurdwara would have been a better venue. One thing I would like to communicate to you that you can actively help push is that we as Diaspora must unify different Gurdwara's in the UK and put an end to idiotic matrimonial apartheid which is a silent cancer destroying our Panth. As our Hindutva opponents aim is to lure 5 million or so current Punjabi speaking Sikhs out of Sikhi into Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs so that Sikhs are left a minority in Punjab by the time of the 2021 census. What we as youth in the West can do to tackle this vital issue head on is merge all Bhat Sangat, Ramgarhia, Ravidassia and other Gurdwara's so that we have 100% unified Sangat in every local area with greater Panthic Unity and accountability. We can get round Presidents by offering the Pradhan of each Gurdwara one of 5 joint presidency positions so that nobody feels slighted or marginalised. The spare Gurdwara buildings can be converted to commercial use in order to generate revenue for Sarbat da Bhala charitable causes and Sikhi parchar globally or community use or sold with all monies going towards addressing the drugs, illiteracy, poverty, cancer and infanticide issues in Punjab. We have to aggressively push this idea amongst the youth as only the youth are capable of bringing this change. We will never advance so long so we long as we have separate sangats divided on the grounds of biraderi de facto destroying everything Sikhi stands for. And if we don't manage to set the precedent for united Sangat Gurdwara's here in the West then the situation of praying for only one Gurdwara per pind will be dangerously delayed given the 6 years left till the census of Punjab in 2021 when our opponents want to see us made a minority. As a footnote if we don't aggressively try to stamp out the associated matrimonial apartheid (which is even disgracefully given succour on so-called Sikh television stations and Gurdwara matrimonial lists) then it will be no wonder that Sikhi becomes irrelevant to more and more youth. Global parchar simply isn't possible to hundreds of millions of poor Indians and Africans when they see the rotten nature of how our community is currently mentally conditioned on such a basis in contrast to the unity and diversity of the Sikh Panth in 1699.

So as long as a politician is Amritdhari like Badal then his stance on (as Jagsaw said) closing down libraries, cutting expenditure on health and education, corporal punishment, exterminating the poor, spending billions on wars in Iraq, gassing Jews is of no consequence to you?

Singhni MiriPiri Ji i always respect what you say but Guru Sahib is not just there for ideal Sikhs (Gurmukhs). Guru Sahib are Jagat Guru for the guidance of all humanity whether Amritdhari or Sehajdhari, Black or White, Punjabi or Tamil. The whole point about these different background marriages is that via education, Anand Karaj and ongoing Sangat support we can "anchor" the erstwhile non-Sikh partner firmly within the Sikh Panth as a new fellow Sikh so that the couple see the benefit of raising their children as Sikhs. Driving the couple away so that they raise their children firmly as non-Sikhs (as people who were denied the blessing of Guru Sahib on their marriage) will leave our Diaspora community half of what it was within a couple of generations. I respect the sincerity of why you feel it's better for us to keep low numbers but be integrated. However, the reality of the last 70years proves that the concept has been a massive failure. Punjabi Sikhs have one language and one Guru. We should be rock solid as a unified fist. But by abandoning all the tens of millions of sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs as we did via the 1950 Maryada (to the delight of Nehru, Congress and Hindutva forces) and ignoring Dr Ambedkar's desire to join the Sikh Panth (a decision which resulted in ten million plus Hindu's turning to Buddhism in the last 70years) the end result has been that our population percentage in India is lower than it was in 1947. Furthermore, it has made us Punjabi Sikhs insular so that we we will fight our own brethren over jatha, samparda, biraderi, sect etc at the drop of a hat. Instead of us being unified we have fractured in the worst possible way (as seen in our Gurughars) with our Hindutva opponents latest divide and rule tactic against us being to try convert 5million or so current day Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva slaves votebank via Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs (that we are doing nothing about). The less insular we become and the less Punjabism-centric we become via a more diverse Sikh Panth with more non-Punjabi's within our ranks the less we as Punjabi's will fight amongst ourselves and see the bigger picture more. The (Saudi) Arabs who enslaved half the world haven't lost their culture one bit despite being a 1% minority of Muslims and neither have the 4% so-called high caste Hindu minority that pimp Hindutva been overrun by absorbing the tens of millions of erstwhile sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs into the Hindu fold. The Khalsa Panth is already all about quality over quantity but in relation to the wider Panth the opposite applies for common sense demographic reasons that our defeats in 1849, 1947 and 1984 purely due to low numbers quite clearly show.

StarStriker Ji this is half of what I am saying. We are ourselves giving ammunition to our enemies to attack us by acting the way we are. Instead of using a couple's desire for an Anand Karaj as a springboard to ensure couples raise their children as Sikhs. Sikhi is the undeniable Truth. It is the most universal, accepting, inclusive philosophy out there for Sarbat da Bhala. But thanks to these protest & blocking of Anand Karaj video's we are being denigrated in the media as an ethnic cult.

Inderjit Bhai Sahib I'm unequivocally on one side of the argument. I was reading post after post in opposition to Anand Karaj for erstwhile non-Sikhs knowing that I am a Sikh today as a result of my non-Sikh ancestors coming into Sikhi via Anand Karaj in the 20th century. But I respect sincere Sikhs who feel like you do yourself and I know you care about Sikhi deeply from when we communicated on the Bhai Gurbaksh Singh thread. But I am honestly sincerely saying that this method of protesting and blocking Anand Karaj's is going to cause demographic oblivion to Diaspora Sikh populations if we blindly continue with it ignoring the Gurmat example of the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji that none of these sehajdhari protestors would have had the himmat to stop. If we want to fight something the bigger fights are there for us to tackle in the form of drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, cancer, illiteracy and poverty afflicting the Sikh Panth.

I agree with you regarding the idea of education about Sikhi and it's exactly what I've been saying all along. But what I'm also saying is that denying them an Anand Karaj will only push people away from Sikhi which is harmful to the Sikh Panth. Aren't we all agreed that Anand Karaj is better for the long term future and togetherness of any two human beings on the planet in comparison to a Church wedding, Hindu Vivaah, Islamic Nikaah or registry marriage? In essence, even if 2 non-Sikhs wish to marry by Anand Karaj that should be welcomed (as it was in the heyday of the Singh Sabha era when hundreds of thousands if not millions came to Sikhi) as it is a good thing and we are de facto accepting them as new Sikhs the minute they bow down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

If you genuinely believe Ranjeet Ji that banning such Anand Karaj's rather than using them as an opportunity to educate the white spouse is beneficial to ensuring the children of such marriages become members of the Sikh Panth, then I respect your opinion but I disagree. All male white spouses won't be like Martin Singh but I genuinely believe they can be the equal sehajdhari Sikhs. http://www.indiawest.com/news/global_indian/white-sikh-runs-for-house-of-commons-seat-in-canada/article_d762aa9e-4203-11e5-86f1-a3a4c89ec078.html?mode=jqm However, the rest of what you say above actually supports my conviction that if we permit such Anand Karaj's and use them as an opportunity to educate, connect and engage the couple with the knowledge that they see Sikhi is the Truth and the benefit of their children being given the names Singh and Kaur.

Bhai Sahib Ji there's not much optimism in the last 2 paragraphs of my post that you quoted. I am very worried about the state of our Panth. In an ideal world, I would like to see all Sikhs truly believe in Sikhi and marry other Sikhs with the whole world becoming Sikh of their own volition on comparing the Truth of Sikhi to the lies out there. But we need to recognise real world problems and employ our own Gurmat-led solutions to do the best we can (which will never lead to utopia in the short term) which can be a whole lot better than we are currently doing.

Bhai Sahib it's down to a lack of knowledge about Sikhi. Sikhi demolishes all these other fake religions on pure logic. But we fail the teach the young about what Sikhi stands for and why it is so important for there to be more Sikhs to do Sarbat da Bhala so that a Khalsa Fauj working with the UN can prevent Genocides, be at the forefront of disaster relief, fight to tackle global illiteracy, child exploitation, modern day slavery, ill health, discrimination, Ebola, HIV etc. By using Anand Karaj as an opportunity to correct this and ensuring that all children (including the offspring of such marriages currently being protested) are raised with an unbreakable connection to the Truth of Sikhi we can turn a current negative into a future long term positive for the Sikh Panth and indeed the whole world.

Ranjeet Ji I already explained why we need to be extra careful when it comes males from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths which do not have gender equality and where rape of non-Muslim women is permitted in the Quran. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76978-muslim-getting-married-in-shepherds-bush-gurdwara-this-friday/page-4 If the kids are lost to Sikhi forever despite our best efforts then there is nothing we can do. But we should try our best. What I am saying is that we should not guarantee that all such children and all future generations are permanently lost from the Sikh Panth by pushing couples elsewhere and forcing them to marry at Churches, Mosques and Mandirs when Sikhi is the undeniable Truth that I confidently feel most children would gravitate towards if they could choose.

Bhai Sahib that's exactly what we have the ability to change if we rise to challenge and respond by educating our own and others more about Sikhi at the point of Anand Karaj at the very least (though of course it should start with Sikhs as children as by the time of marriage the horse has already bolted). But burying our heads in the sand and banning Sikh men from marrying erstwhile non-Sikh women so that the children and future generations of such couples are alienated away from Sikhi will prove a demographic disaster for us in the Diaspora. While our opponents look to extract 5million current Sikhs out of Sikhi and into the Hindutva fold via Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs prior to the 2021 census so that we become a minority in Punjab by 2021. We need to seriously address these issues right here right now in 2015 as complaining in 6 years time when reality hits the fan that we might be a minority in Punjab by 2021 and a smaller minority in countries like the UK when we realise how many millions we have alienated away from Sikhi will not help us with mistakes we had the easy ability to correct by employing the logic of Gurmat in 2015.

Brother look at the facts. Christianity and Islam are blatant falsehoods but have 4,000 million odd followers. Do I believe that Sikhi having less followers is down to Akaal Purakh's deliberate design? Not at all! I believe that the false religions grew via the sword, terrorism and slavery. And we need to push Sikhi to grow in order to combat the false narratives of those like Bible Bashers and Islamic State. By the extension of your logic above one could (wrongly) argue that it is Vaheguru causing ever increasing rates of intermarriage to occur - when obviously that it is not the case and it is just the obvious consequence of being a very small minority and the effect of assimilation over time. The age point was not in relation to your lack of maturity or anything of the sort but more that perhaps you have not seen too many around you get married. Outside of California and New York states more than 99.9% of the surrounding population are non-Sikhs. It's a miracle that intermarriage rates are as currently low as they are in the Diaspora. But what I am saying is that year after year they are increasing and I have seen this myself and most people have as an inevitable consequeunce of being a small minority coupled with the effects of assimilation over time. I am saying that particularly in the case of Buddhist, Hindu and Jain female spouses I feel the vast majority of children can be raised Sikhs and that surely that is better than estranging all 100% of such couples away from Sikhi permanently.

The bottom line is Jacfsing2 Ji is that you have failed to demonstrate why your viewpoint is the for the long term benefit and positive progress of the Sikh Panth. Maybe because you are 17 you don't see it but mark my words in the USA where 99.9% of the population is non-Sikh it is inevitable that a degree of intermarriage will occur and you are likely to see this in your own state. Either we can alienate those that do and their children and future generations away from Sikhi forever. Or we can try our very best by reaching out to make the couple feel that they are part of the Sikh Panth so that there is the best possible chance of them raising their children as Sikhs.

Of course not! No I don't! Do I think Bhai Jagraj Singh Ji is infalliable - no. Do I believe he is not seeing the writing on the wall regards us being such a small minority - yes. Do I believe anybody could dare protest at the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj - no Instead of protesting such Anand Karaj's we should focus greater attention on the dangers that drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, cancer, illiteracy and poverty pose to the Sikh Panth imho.