Niranjana

Gur Fateh! M Khalsa Bhai Sahib, I'm happy to 'agree to disagree' however denial of raagmala is prehaps the biggest act qualifying people as the modern day equivalents of the Ram Rae (who changed only one word or Gurbani) here, we have folk willing to cut out an entire Shabd!!! I don't wish to get into pro and anti arguments about the raagmala, however to look at it humbly, personally I will always recite raagmala, as if it is indeed not gurbani (as claimed by some neo-evangelical Sikh movements and scholars and brethren) then fine, I shall repent on the basis that I have full faith in Maharaj and do not consider myself worthy of denying Gurbani... ...however, what does one do, after spending their whole life denying and speaking ill of the Shabd, upon discovering that it is in fact Gurbani -what are you going to repent for??? Your Manmat...sorry folks...but it's too late...you've sowed your seeds... Singho, Singhneeo, let us rejoice in our diversity and retain unity through the central axis of the Universe -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji... -forgive my foolishness... -forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat- Mod Note: This is not a Ragmala Discussion, this has already been discussed and you may wish to reopen discussion in a new thread, let's stick to the topic at hand (Kabio Vach Benti) please .

Gur Fateh! MKhalsa Ji, thanks for your explanation, however this <banned word filter activated> (ME) still doesn't get it! Please could you expand a little further, since if it really does mean that "you should not go near it, shouldnt take it, for you, the father, it is poison, do not steal your daughters belongings etc.." then why only the daughter? Is it by default fine for the father to 'steal' from his son? I think not...sorry if this seems picky, but I really can't my head around this one... : : : Also, could someone pro vide a reference for these Hukams? There appears to be none on the sites which display them... Forgive my foolishness, -forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat- : : :

Gur Fateh! I'm not using any western thoughts here thank you! I agree that some folks simply dont' know how to tie their beards and end up wreaking their beards et al -but to say gel is the same as dying and make-up...well guys, get a grip, wearing a dastaar gives you a spam-head receding hairline...what are you going to suggest next??? As per the 'This is Khalsa Singhs' -yes I know who we are, but in a fight, ambush or other attack, no-one gives a damn, it's no-holds bar, not a Karate Competition, Boxing Match or Gatka Khell...so is it not best to be prepared...people will use anything to their advantage and a big beard is open bait (I've seen it happen to other Sardars myself)... ...for the record, I have nothing against tying or leaving it flowing -I do both dependent on t he Situation and certainly not to impress Girls or Westerners! This really is a non-issue, get on with your lives...get on with real Sikhi (naam jappo, Vand ke shakko, kirt karo) and not waste time on futile matters... Sorry, if this offends anyone and given that many are stuck in their view that their version/interpretation of Gurmat is correct, I doubt this will end this topic...so forgive me for my errors, this is the last time I shall be posting for this particular discussion as I have mentioned my point -which Sardar MKhalsa is not comparable to saying a CleanShaved face is presentable (I never stated or alluded to that)... ...everyone is entitled to their own opinion, mine is simply that this is a personal matter and one dependent upon one's situation...and so long as Kesh are maintain and respected (which can be done by caring for them if open or tying them up sensibly so they don't get dirty, burnt, caught up in machinery etc) Maryada is not violated. MKhalsa, I certainly agree that "a singh with an open dhari which is kept clean and combed etc looks a lot neater than some clean shaven person with little stubble in their face" ...clean shaven folk are scared to grow up and hence shave to 'appear' like children -Sardar Kapur Singh writes extensively on the subject and its origins and popularisation during the reign of Alexander the Great in his book "Parasaraprasna" which I recommend as a great read. -forever at the feet of the Sangat-

GUR FATEH! Bhai Sahib, please refrain from showering me with overbearing compliments (re: if ur charandhoor of sangat im chardhoor of urs man.) The Sangat is far above any individual and especially above me -I appreciate your honest and kind response, however I ask that such high compliments be reserved for those deserving (i.e. Guru Maharaj) [NOTE: I'm not wishing to sound bad here, however statement like this are bound to give me a big head!!! -not needed, it's already big enough and that's not a particularly good thing! LOL!] Hey, you're not the only one becoming too motaa (LOL)...me too!...We need to resolve this, it's too bad that Singhs are so motae these days! Back in Maharaj's time, Guru Ji is said to have awarded those in his Army (i.e. not just Nihangs, but all Sikhs and others too) who could perform the most 'Dands' and 'Bethaks' -there is (although nowadays, highly unknown to most sikhs) a complete system of physical and mental conditioning that Gurdev Pita gave to the sikhs...in the absence of enough knowledge on my part, again I'd be grateful if we could share our thoughts on the points I mentioned earlier, namely:- -What style do you train in and how has it worked for you -What ancilliary training do you do (cardio, strength, flexbility -weights, yoga, swimming?) -What diet/nutritional advice do you follow -What magazine/articles/websites do you recommend for research -Do you cross train? If so, anyone up for training with a Wing Chun/Kali practitioneer?! I feel it's important to share these ideas with other Sikhs, since the Amrit-Vela lifestyle combined with prehaps a vegetarian or vegan diet does require some working around to combine a decent amount of training especially when you're working longhours with your job etc etc...hope to hear from you... ...and finally on the Motaa business again, and apologies if this offends people, but there are 'stories' I've heard of Singhs in the Dal during the 18th century when washing their hair in the nearby rivers to their encampments would regularly result in many local women struck with awe at the slight of their literally 'mean and lean' physiques and their Kesh as they dried them...not only women, the same is also true of Bhai Nand Lal when seeing Gurdev Pita drying his kesh in the morning following his nishan -the inspiration to his beautiful Ghazal "Deen Duniya Darkamande Aap He..." ...shame that over the past 100 years most Singhs are quite content to simply eat loads of paranthas with ample Desi Ghee and in the case of our Gyanis spend the day eating prashad and carrying around the resultant spare tyre in their belly (!) and of course the 'Sikh-Allopecia' resulting from the insistence to keep our kesh tied up tightly in a dastaar 24-7...guys and gals, you need to air your hair a little...Guru Roop is beautiful...let's maintain it and keep it that way! Again, please forgive any foolish commments in the foregoing, -forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat-

Gur Fateh! Is this really Shaster Vidiya or rasmi-Gatka-Khell? PLEASE NOTE; I ask this for factual reasons and not for any vindictive purpose...there is a difference between the two and most gatka classes fall into the latter camp. I'm not saying that this is wrong or that is right, simply that let's acknowledge the actual art in question -Gatka that is predominantly taught in most Sikh circles is mostly Rasmi/Khell Gatka, which is fine as an art form, but to start calling it Shaster Vidiya is a fallacy as it certainly is more of a sporting nature than a fully comprehensive battle art -BUT that doesn't make it wrong (it's like comparing Karate and Kick Boxing, which are very sporting with Wing Chun or Kali, which are far more combat orientated -all valid styles and all great, but different applications, let's not start slating each others styles and remain honest). To expand on the closing comments, I have a background in Gung-Fu, however increasingly need to consider elements from grappling and brazlian jujitsu as whilst the Gung-Fu works great, there are situations that it breaks down given my smaller size and build (i.e. when hitting the deck or when faced with a weapon)...doesn't make Gung-Fu wrong (as it works in other situations where alternatuve styles break down)...it's about being realistic -I wouldn't begin calling myself a Gung-Fu artist after studying kick boxing, no matter how good a kick boxer I was...why call Gatka (which is a great art, however like anything as it's areas of application and others where it breaks down) Shaster Vidiya, when the two are quite distinct? I do not wish to discuss Ni ddar Singh or AKJ or Taksal or whatever...this is a question about the martial art only not the personalities, groups or institutions, let's stick with the martial arts -whatever your discipline, let's talk about it, share ideas and also training tips -personally, I feel that every style has something positive to offer, if you're up for it here are some topics that would be great to share:-. -What style do you train in and how has it worked for you -What ancilliary training do you do (cardio, strength, flexbility -weights, yoga, swimming?) -What diet/nutritional advice do you follow -What magazine/articles/websites do you recommend for research -Do you cross train? If so, anyone up for training with a Wing Chun/Kali practitioneer?! I feel it's important to share these ideas with other Sikhs, since the Amrit-Vela lifestyle combined with prehaps a vegetarian or vegan diet does require some working around to combine a decent amount of training especially when you're working longhours with your job etc etc...hope to hear from you... Forgive any foolishness in the foregoing. -forever the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

GUR FATEH!!! Abortion is used to wipe out the Sikh female population given that weat the moment we have the worst gender imbalances in the world: 874 : 1000 and declining @ Its one of the lowest in India... thats basically due to illiterate Peasant Sikh population in villages, where in some districts the sex ratio is as low as 550 : 1000... Absolutely disgraceful for a community that claims to be against 'kurimar' and one which goes around telling people how we respect women and all... So pardon any harsh comments from me in this regard, but here's my gut feeling on this topic:- This is not news, this is merely the dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture -the abhorrent attitude towards the female principle, so much so that we now have a grossly unbalanced sex ratio in the region with one of the results being the rise in homosexual behaviour and incidents evident within the region in addition to increased rape cases (heterosexual and homosexual). [Note; I am not intending to begin a debate on homosexuality here, nor am I intending to exhort any homophobic comments, this is a observational comment only] I say that this the “dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture” on account of the fact that in almost every Rehitnama that exists within the Sikh Tradition, there is explicit reference to the sins of female infanticide and relationship with Kuri-Mars (those who commit female infanticide) is forbidden for Gursikhs. Cle arly this tragedy has been occurring for centuries that the Gurus and GurSikhs after them saw the need to make such explicit reference owing to the widespread nature of this disease. In fact, this side of Punjabi culture is visible throughout the Diaspora; in Canada, the UK and the US, I know of many families (from purely Punjabi families to Keshdhari/Amritdhari Sikh families) who continue this attitude of detesting the female child, evident throughout the life of the girl, particularly so through her adolescent years and then when she is a finally married woman...right through to her death... ...one only needs to compare the celebrations that follow the birth of a son in Punjabi families and compare it to the feelings present when a girl is born...frankly, it’s disgusting to say the least... ...in fact the detesting of the female principle is also evident within certain supposed Gurmukh circles who through their self-concocted ideals actively seek to masculine femininity and weaken the female status, evidence of this has be easily found today in the numerous events that we have seen around us in the past year (amply discussed on this and other forums)... To add to this audacity, we find that Sikh leaders regularly fall back upon the cultural excuse when trying to justify outdated practices that are still manifest within the Panth...there is a lot more I can add on this matter...however this posting is already too long...I just hope that we can move forward from this plague and that our Leaders in Punjab take due note of what is occuring... Forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat, BIR RAS DE NAAAL... GURBAR AKAAAAAAAL! SAT SRI AKAAAAAAAL!!!!

Gur Fateh! Not meaning to be rude, but even if it is according to the Akal Thakt, I think it goes without saying that the present day incumbents leave a lot to be desired. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru, not some government appointed office bearers, even if they may occupy our temporal throne. The Benti Chaupai does continue further as per: "Kripa kari hum par Jag Mata... ...Dookh naa tisa biaput ko-ee" These together with the Arill, Dohras and Savyayae complete the entire Bani as per all puratan Gutkas, Granths and Rehit Namas. The shortening of the Rehras Sahib, denial of Raagmaala, questioning the validity of the Dasam Granth, alterations of the Rehit Namas are all acts of the Ram Rae we face today altering Sikhi where it doesn't suit their agendas... Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, -forever at the feet of the Sadh sangat-

Gur Fateh! ms514 sahib, thanks for the response. I agree with much of your post, however I am not saying the massacres that occured in 1984 were simply riots, I know all too well what they were and yes my own family members in Delhi were caught up in the crisis. I'm not saying that Bir Ras is dead -again to use my own family example, my Nana Ji single-handed faught off 100's of attackers who had surrounded our house in Delhi (the only visibly Sikh house in the entire block) with his pistol and rifle...he is was a hero...people still refer to him as the short Sardar-Ji (at 5'5'!!!) who single handed protected his wife, daughters in law and grandchildren from the massacre. As you will have noted, I did not say ALL Amritdharis or Sikhs lack such qualities, I am well aware of the instances where only a handful of Sikhs chased away mobs upon mobs and also of the WWI and WWII episodes...the fact still remains, that Sikhs as a whole could have protected themselves far better had certain aspects of our traditions been maintained... ...me included...I too am a shivering weakling...whilst in recent years having made attempts to remedy that through marital training and fitness...this is all too often frowned upon by certain members of one's family and Sikh circles...and the notion that the kirpan is entirely of symbolic value is disturbing...there is much that I can write about this, but in general little little things have collectively added up to sterilise the Panth... ...this is a larger discussion, but let's be honest much of the damage that was done in 1984 in Delhi and in the numerous instances that occur in the Diaspora coul d have been lessened if we actually did retain this aspect of our tradition...more so, the vast levels of apostasy that followed would have equally been lessened and the general confidence of Sikhs remained exalted... Again, I apologise if I have offended anyone's sentiments or feelings, it is really is NOT the intention...and accordingly I ask that any foolish words be forgiven... -forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat-

I'm not a Baba!!! LOL!!! Just a kid!

Khalsa Sahib, Gur Fateh! Thanks for the kind words, I wouldn't be so harsh on yourself -I too haven't understood Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, but also spend time reading up on Mahayana Buddhism, Sufi Texts and what not! But that's not all bad to be honest, as I've personally found knowledge to inspire deeper devotion inside of me and also when I return in my Nitnem or otherwise to Guru Mahraj, I tell you it's quite something...it's everything! That's just what works for me...if it works for you too, then that's cool...my other (and better!) half is a lot more accomplished at reading Gurbani than me and always does a whole more when it comes to Sehaj Paaths we may undertake (I'm so blessed, Maharaj even takes care of illiterate fools like me! LOL), but she's a real fan of Rumi (the Sufi Baba) and it's made some interesting and inspiring vichaar in the past... I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat.

Gur Fateh! As a basic amount, I'll endeavour to recite Jap Ji Sahib, Jaap Sahib and Tav Prashad Savyayae at Amritvela, augmented with Mool Mantr and Gur Mantr simran and with the following Banis as per time, fatigue, concentration and other factors (apologies if this offends anyone, but I'm really not a great example of an Amritdhari Sikh!):- -Shabd Hazare -Tav Prashad Chaupai (from Akal Ustat) -Benti Chaupai (in full, i.e. "Kirpa kari hum par Jag Mata..." with Arill and Dohras) -Anand Sahib (full 40 or shortened as per comments above) And if I've managed to get my lazy butt up in real good time, I on occassion or as the needs call for have from time to time recited/listened to the following at Amrit Vela:- -Sukhmani Sahib -Chandi Di // -Akal Ustat -Asa di // -Oogardanti ...and I believe courtesy of my better half we'll be reciting "Basant ki //" soon! Sometimes, I may perform certain martial routines during Jaap Sahib or before/after the recitations take 10 - 15 mins to perform some warm-up, stetches, breathe-work and light conditioning exercises... In the evening, I'll recite Rehras (in full where possible, i.e. with full Chaupai as above and with all Dohras et al that I have access to...) and Kirtan Sohila with the 'Rakhia de Shabd' before hand followed by an Ardas. ...all this said...I'll be very honest and say, I struggle on a daily basis to maintain my basic Nitnem...but this is all a func tion of Maharaj's blessing...we can only keep on trying with courage and patience... Forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, -I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

GUR FATEH!!! Abortion is used to wipe out the Sikh female population given that weat the moment we have the worst gender imbalances in the world: 874 : 1000 and declining Its one of the lowest in India... thats basically due to illiterate Peasant Sikh population in villages, where in some districts the sex ratio is as low as 550 : 1000... Absolutely disgraceful for a community that claims to be against 'kurimar' and one which goes around telling people how we respect women and all... So pardon any harsh comments from me in this regard, but here's my gut feeling on this topic:- This is not news, this is merely the dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture -the abhorrent attitude towards the female principle, so much so that we now have a grossly unbalanced sex ratio in the region with one of the results being the rise in homosexual behaviour and incidents evident within the region in addition to increased rape cases (heterosexual and homosexual). [Note; I am not intending to begin a debate on homosexuality here, nor am I intending to exhort any homophobic comments, this is a observational comment only] I say that this the “dark side of Indian and largely Punjabi and Rajisthani culture” on account of the fact that in almost every Rehitnama that exists within the Sikh Tradition, there is explicit reference to the sins of female infanticide and relationship with Kuri-Mars (those who commit female infanticide) is forbidden for Gursikhs. Clearly this tragedy has been occurring for centuries that the Gurus and GurSikhs after them saw the need to make such explicit reference owing to the wi despread nature of this disease. In fact, this side of Punjabi culture is visible throughout the Diaspora; in Canada, the UK and the US, I know of many families (from purely Punjabi families to Keshdhari/Amritdhari Sikh families) who continue this attitude of detesting the female child, evident throughout the life of the girl, particularly so through her adolescent years and then when she is a finally married woman...right through to her death... ...one only needs to compare the celebrations that follow the birth of a son in Punjabi families and compare it to the feelings present when a girl is born...frankly, it’s disgusting to say the least... ...in fact the detesting of the female principle is also evident within certain supposed Gurmukh circles who through their self-concocted ideals actively seek to masculine femininity and weaken the female status, evidence of this has be easily found today in the numerous events that we have seen around us in the past year (amply discussed on this and other forums)... To add to this audacity, we find that Sikh leaders regularly fall back upon the cultural excuse when trying to justify outdated practices that are still manifest within the Panth...there is a lot more I can add on this matter...however this posting is already too long...I just hope that we can move forward from this plague and that our Leaders in Punjab take due note of what is occuring... Forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat, BIR RAS DE NAAAL... GURBAR AKAAAAAAAL! SAT SRI AKAAAAAAAL!!!!

Gur Fateh! I have come across these citings before and must admit that some of these do sound interesting vis-a-vis the present day Maryada of the Akal Thakt or Damdami Taksal (and all others affliated with these two institutions). So in addition to Ideal's question, please could we share our thoughts ont the following Hukams:- 12)Jaman, maran, ja viah mokae Jup da paatth kar tihaaval (Karaah Parsaad) kar anand sahib dia punj paurian, ardaas, pratham punj pyaariaan atae hazoori granthi noo vartaa kae oprunth sangat noo vartaaouna - At birth, death, or marriage ceremonies, do Japji Sahib, make Karaah Parshaad, do five stanzas of anand sahib, do ardaas, and then distribute Karaah Parshaad to the Panj Pyare, the Granthi, and then to the sangat. This is interesting as per the reference to the 5 Stanzas of the Anand Sahib and commentry relating to the inclusion of the 40th as per Yogi Bhajan and 3HO (also see http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...2231&highlight= and http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/articles.ns...73?OpenDocument and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanSikh...s/message/6502) 34)Saun valae sohila atae 'paun guru pani pita...' salok parhna - Recite Sohila and 'paun guru pani pita...' stanza before going to sleep. Although this wasn't provided to me by the Punj Pyare d uring my Amrit Sanchar, I have tried this a few times and it does have a degree of completeness vis-a-vis 'Divas Raat Doee Daee Dyaa...' but this is only my personal experience...anyway, I just found it interesting that this appears here as a Bhachan of GurDev Pita, yet is absent from all other references to the Nitnem... 45)Putari da dhan bikh jananaa - Recognize the property of a daughter as poison? This is the real point I'd like to understand, what is Gurdev referrring to when he mentions 'property' ? As points 15, 16 in the main, already cover the issue of respecting and honouring the women in one's life (Mother, Sister and Wife). Any pointers? And before Sarabloh Soulja tells me that "property meaning ure ownings ,everything that u own....e.g ure houses, mansions, cars.......stuff like tht" as he did on another forum please could anyone share their thoughts as to why a daughters property (house, goods, items etc) is to be regarded as poison? Or does 'property' refer to something else here? Forgive my foolishness in the forgoing... -I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

Gur Fateh! On the topic of Fauja, any thoughts on the "Kasyia Fauja" ?...

Gur Fateh! I can't believe youth actually need to discuss this topic, why is it such an issue??? The question really does not be SHOULD but CAN we tie our beards. And personally, YES! If it needs to be done then so be it -if one works in a factory close to machinery or similar tools, it helps practically to keep it tied up, otherwise, if you prefer it loose, then so be it...it's fine...no right or wrong, just be sensible -is it so hard??? Historically, the trend is thought to have been commercially popularised by Maharaj Sher Singh and but actually came into effect when Singhs using rifles who have their beards catch alight...so again practicality. ...now today, sure not all of us use rifles or work with machinery, but the risk of an opponent grabbing one's beard during an attack is always present (speak to the Delhi Sikhs and you'll hear about live examples of this and worse in 1984, also same in many pro-Khalistani Gurdwaras during the late 1980's and early 1990's in the UK and Canada, where Sikhs do the same to their own -anyway, this is another issue). ...as per keeping it neat and tidy, both work well (open or tied)...what is so wrong is being presentable??? Do we really have to look shabby to be good sikhs??? This has always confused me why people exhort such strange opinions... ...Keep your Kesh and look after them...simple as that...and get on with life...mindless quarrels arise from issues such as this. Again, forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing... -I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

Gur Fateh! MKhalsa, please could you provide the reference for this statement "Since the times of guru nanak dev jee bani has been sung in simple tunes". Anyone who knows about the Rabaab, knows how intricate it is to play...anyway, without getting into technicalities...why does everyone think that Raag has to be complex...listen to some of the ligther folk styles payed by Prof. Surinder Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh, Baljeet and Gurmeet Singh Naamdhari et al... ...you'll see that they still use the correct raag, (as per the Hukam of the Guru) and not some 1950's hindi film tune as is the case very often with the many sikhs and jathas today...not a criticism, only an observation...although I personally always prefer kirtan in Raag, not necessary heavy classical...but in raag, it has a certain magic about it, which lacks elsewhere... Forgive any foolish comments in the f oregoing, -I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

Gur Fateh, "...I do not wish to have this discussion fall into an argument on jathas or jathabandis or sampardya, but I personally feel people's realtionship with Maha raj cannot be identical..." Just to clarify, I simply which to state here that one's relationship with Maharaj is exactly that their own...as Sadh Sangat we simply come together to support each other and share the collective experience...Maharaj is so vast that experience of Akaal is equally vast and diverse...as therefore are the methods and means to do so... [Personally, for me, Khalsa Singhs have a quickest route, but this is for me...by Kirpa and Karam...another may, by the same 2 factors be more suited to a Ba'hai, Mahayana Buddhist, Shia Islamic, Udasi Sadhu or Greek Christian lifetsyle...this is all forms of Maharaj's play...**Manas Ki Jaat ko, Ekeh pachaan bo**...**Kudrat da khel rachaiya...**]

Gur Fateh! Gurbar Akaaal, I note your comments and whilst agreeing in principle for unity as per the message of Gurdev Pita, I don't believe that means everyone is the same and identical. "Unity through diversity" is what I believe Guru Ji wanted, for the entire world and for the Sikhs -one can see this if one compares the accounts of Bhai Daya Singh, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Khanyia Singh and Banda Singh Bahadur -all Sikhs, but not necessarily Amritdhari or identical in rehit... ...I do not wish to have this discussion fall into an argument on jathas or jathabandis or sampardya, but I personally feel people's realtionship with Maharaj cannot be identical... ...the contrast to this is Unity in the form of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi's where everyone dresses, looks, thinks, believes and behaves the same way...consider this carefully (and the youth camps, ladies camps and speeches of the Nazis) and compare to the thoughts and events organised by many who claim to be propagating Sikhi today and you'll find a nasty taste in your mouth... Please forgive any foolish statements in the foregoing -I remain the Charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat-

Gur Fateh! In the Sarabloh Granth we find the following verses: The dharma panth of the Khalsa spread, whose form is truth, liberation and auspicious action. Adorned with kachh, kes and kirpan they worshipped the Guru. Worshippers of Kala, [following] chhatriya dharma, they girded their loins and came first in the field of battle. Among them forty-five were accepted, and five were supreme among the Khalsa: The beloved Ajit Singh, Jujhar Singh, Fateh Singh and Joravar Singh, The fifth among the Khalsa [was] the True Guru who manifested this good Panth. Sri Sarab Loh Granth, 3, p. 496. This is an interesting reference to the 'Kshatriya' aspect of the Khalsa vis-a-vis the 4 components that make up 'Bir Ras', namely Dharam, Daya, Dhan and Yudh and hence combine into the qualities of the Khalsa. Also, there is the reference to the Tria Mudra (Kesh, Kirpan and Kach) that many old historical texts reference before the formalising of the 5 K's. I was wondering what the forums views were with regard to the following:- -Bir Ras (or 'veer' ras in Sanskrit orginal) and it's relevance today in view of the events that have unfolded say over the past 20 years, notably 1984 in Delhi and 2001 in NY, both cases where we have seen many an Amritdhari Singh fall prey to weakness* -The importance of Kirpan vis-a-vis symbology and practicality. -The SarabLoh Granth -should this really be made available to the public? Is it really essential for those living a Gursikh lifestyle outside that of a Dal? Forgive any foolishness in the foregoing, -I remain the ch arandhoor of the Sadh Sangat- p.s. *I reference 'weakness', not as a means of insult, but obsevation. In 1984, there were many cases where the Singhs actually removed their Shasters and gave it to the attacking Mobs and pleaded not to be harmed (of course, not only were they attacked, but their Women and Eldarly were severely dishonoured)... ...similarly following the 9/11 bombing and the case of Mistaken identity for Sikhs, whilst many practical actions have been taken, the common site was one of Sikhs wearing the Stars and Stripes under or on their Turbans, having the US flag rising next to the Nishan Sahib...and effectively turning to President Bush with folded hands "Babu Ji, sannu bachaa do..." as is evident with the recent explanations of a Kirpan being purely for Symbolic purposes...again I apologise if this offends anyone, however my concern is with the sterilised feeling within the Sikhs today...

Gur Fateh! I am amazed to see how easily people get worked up by the presentation of facts. All the site does is present articles of facts from various sources and clearly labels 'Naamdhari Gurus' as a separate entry, i.e. they are not part of the lineage of Gurus for Sikhs as a whole -however, they do form part of our history, albeit somewhat heavily against the maryada of Khalsa Singhs in the modern practice of Naamdharis. [For the record, I am nothing to do with this site and my personal views do not coincide with that of the site moderator, however, as far as presentation of facts is concerned, it is 'reasonably' valid] For a honest fairly decent account of 'Baba' Ram Singh, I would recommend reading Fateh Singh Bajwa's 'The Kuka Movement' which whilst accouting for the social and political reforms that Ram Singh sought to bring about also gives account of their origins. [Please note: I am NOT a Naamdhari nor a member of any Jatha, Dal, or orginisation -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is my one and only Guru] The articles quoted are taken from sikh historical sources such as the Sau Saakhi and Gynai Gian Singh's works -personally I look at them as the views and thougths of people at the time....nothing more, nothing less...these are 'historical' accounts (albeit some may have been tampered with during the course of history, but eh, that's history in itself!) It's the same as looking at the Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehitnama, Bhai Daya Singh Rehitnama and the Suraj Prakash Granth -all sources of modern day rehitnamas (be they issued by the SGPC, AKJ or Damdami Taksal) however al l these sources also mention the role of the Devi (Kalka, Chandi etc) during the amrit ceremony, make mention of caste ('brahmin' sikh -see Bhai Chaupa Singh) and various other notions -which were prevalent at that time amongst the Sikh masses...this has to be understood, it is not a reflection of Sikhi, but of the cultural period and influences in vogue during those times...rather like saying in 100 years time, one may comment that Singhs in Toronto and London wear small turbans, although occasionally a baseball cap over their topknots of uncut hair and have trimmed beards -these are all actions agianst our Maryada and Rehit, but, they are true of what is and has been happening... ...I simply feel it is important for Sikhs to keep ahold of what 'really' did go on in our history, even if goes against the Rehits and Maryada (in which instance, try and understand why it did so) -otherwise, we allow external forces (such as the RSS, VHP et al) to manipulate their sources for their own crooked ends... ...this is what has been happening with the recent Dasam Granth issue, as the SGPC as seen fit to ban discussion, i.e. place a question mark on the issue themselves, not to mention the lack of certain bani's from the copies of the Dasam Granth that they print, generally the Sikh populace has a lack of understanding abuot these writings and hence along come RSS twist and contort their meanings and we have serious problems... ...forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing... -I remain the Charandoor of the Sadh Sangat-

now now gentlemen! :T:

Gur Fateh! "Mahaa Kaal Kee Saran Jae Paray su lae bachae. Uor Na upjae doosar jag pachiyo sabhai banai" [sri Dasam Granth Sahib] The question really should be where does Chaupai Sahib end??? The SGPC/Akal Thakt maryada cuts the last 2 stanzas out: "Kirpa karee hum par Jug Mata..." ...why? Well, there are many reasons put forward, I don't have any references with me at present, but in general, it tends to be a mixture of political influence (to undermine the power of Gurbani and sterilise the panth), anti-Parampara hysteria (which also led to the removal of many parts of the Dasam Granth and indeed the entire Granth from Gurdwaras in amongst other matters)... forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing... SAT SRI AKAAAAL!