Niranjana

Khalsa is spiritual, we have covered that point off - please kindly read the posts above and refrain from SHOUTING (!) No one on this thread is challenging the qualities of Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi. The question concerns about what happened to his killers and why many people link their gruesome murders with Sant Jee, including many pro-Sant Jee youth? Fundementally, instances like this and others are in many ways Human Rights abuses and we need to be careful of simply linking ourselves to them as some means of settling scores or seeking justice, particularly if Sikhs, whether pro-Khalistani or not, wish to seek the gross violations of Human Rights meted out to our people brought to justice.

Seeing that Bikramjit Singh and Balpreet Singh 132 appear to be away from the forum, I would request that Bilja Singh who is a learned and passionate Man on all matters Khalistan (as shown under his debate with Prabhu Singh) and Taksal to perhaps kindly set the record straight to the points arising above.

It comes from Guru Gobind Singh Ji accepting gifts / giving "asheervad" / marking his approval with the use of his Teer whilst being on his Asthaan. In Hazoor Sahib bhog and acceptance of items like Rumallas for Guru Maharaj is still blessed with a Teer. The Kirpan Bhet is adapted from here, since it is the most common shastar of the Khalsa.

This is a great and much need (and very long awaited) step from the SGPC, hopefully we can see some positive steps come from this quickly.

Akali Sodhi is right about the following: 1. The Hariavela Nihangs do exactly the same thing as the Buddha Dal nihangs - i.e. Goats are chatka'ed at their camps and Sukha is also prepared despite their leader being a tee-total vegetarian. 2. Those who like to indicate that Baba Santa is not the Jathedar, I believe you should perhaps reconsider given the following: - Baba Surjit Singh has been declared as a the NEXT Jathedar to be, and - Baba Balbir Singh Akali, although a one time detractor of Baba Santa Singh owing to the Akal Thakt incident, has now sought forgiveness and his Dal (which is the more popular one in terms of recent publicity thanks to Nihangs like Major Singh and his 101m Dumalla) has largely resolved differences with Baba Santa Singh's Dal. In addition, perhaps the sangat would also consider the following: 1. Sukha and Chatka: These are now long established practices of the Nihangs and largely accepted as part of their lifetsyle. Randip Singh has explained clearly and sensibly how these came about and I would concur that yes, that sukha is now abused, but I can't get over people's shock at its occurence, it's hardly something new, its been happening for ages - let's not forget that the Akal Thakt didn't excommunicate Baba Santa Singh for his opium addiction but for his anti-panthic choice in the rebuilding of the Akal Thakt. On this topic however, whilst the Taksal took over the job from an accepted Panthic standpoint, let's not forget that they are also responsible for its current state (i.e. no heritage value, changes from historical structure). 2. Baba Nihal Singh Baba Jee is indeed a key figure in the Panth today, however more emphasis seems to be placed on his vegetarian diet than anything else - for reasons I expressed already on the vegetarian thread, this is not short of stupid. Interestingly enough, the very (non-Nihang) supporters of Baba Jee as "jinda - shaheed" are now retracting their words following the Khalsa Heritage complex incident displaying the apparent close links of Baba Jee, the Sant Samaj and the Taksal to the Congress Government. 3. Nihangs are a joke in Punjab This is largely true in India as many "nihang jokes" are common amongst Urbanite Sikhs who view them as country bumpkins (for the record, this is not my view, I'm simply observing), moreover the Nihangs opening admit that they have renegades in their ranks giving them a bad name - speak to some chardi kala older Nihangs and they'll explain this too, owing to the custom of their Dals to accept all and sundry. This much said, let's be realistic, in Punjab the popular man is Parkash Singh Badal (given that he is VOTED in time and again within the SGPC - he hasn't placed a gun infront of people to secure his seat...) and even other groups such as AKJ are not regarded well in many Punjabi towns, where they are either referred to as the 'Vaheguru Vaheguru vale' and/or 'Pugvalia bibia' or derogatory terms like 'Pankhand Kirtani Jatha' or 'badh sit badh sit karn vale' (a reference to the heavy saas graas simran) - again before anyone gets over emotional, these are not my views only observations - in short the point being that majority opinion, whilst saying something about the large composite of any commuinity does not necessarily equal the correct opinion depending on how one analyses the situation.

Dear "khalistan_the_only_answer" if you are going to quote Bhai Desa Singh, please do so in full and not simply choose the bits YOU like (much like most fanatical sikh organisations today). The same rehitnama clearly mentions it is acceptable to eat a jhatka'ed Goat, just not in the Langar. It also mentions that before war, one may have alcohol, but otherwise not to even take its name. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, but the Gurus word is final and let's deal with that - if we are going to start bringing up issues like this shabd accordingly this or that translation indicates it is wrong to eat meat, then yes the step is going to be cut your kesh (in response to the SHOUTING Singhni above), since by YOUR logic, the next step will be to look at shabds which indicate that cutting hair or growing it are all acceptable (these can be found in Bhagat Bani and also in the Dasam Granth)...so it's not Meat-eaters who will destroy Sikhi, it YOU fanatical vegetarian types!!! Get a life and move on. Admin, benti again, lock this nonsense down and let move on to more important things. Dear "khalistan_the_only_answer" if you are going to quote Bhai Desa Singh, please do so in full and not simply choose the bits YOU like (much like most fanatical sikh organisations today). The same rehitnama clearly mentions it is acceptable to eat a jhatka'ed Goat, just not in the Langar. It also mentions that before war, one may have alcohol, but otherwise not to even take its name. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, but the Gurus word is final and let's deal with that - if we are going to start bringing up issues like this shabd accordingly this or that translation indicates it is wrong to eat meat, then yes the step is going to be cut your kesh (in response to the SHOUTING Singhni above), since by YOUR logic, the next step will be to look at shabds which indicate that cutting hair or growing it are all acceptable (these can be found in Bhagat Bani and also in the Dasam Granth)...so it's not Meat-eaters who will destroy Sikhi, it YOU fanatical vegetarian types!!! Get a life and move on. Admin, benti again, lock this nonsense down and let move on to more important things.

LK veer - I agree the Mr Tully isn't the most reliable source, that is fine - which is why we are discussing this here - however the notion of Baljeet Kaur being mutilated by her murderers (including both her breats been chopped off amongst other things) is not something that only Mark Tully indicates, in fact this has been mentioned elsewhere and also on this forum and others. "Nang Singh" (I'm sure you're not a Nang, since that would imply you are naked...but then again if you are, please don't confirm!), my point is simple: 1. Bhai Sodhi Ji was a respected member of Sant Jee's personnel - fine and his death is something that warranted investigation and a solution. 2. Today, the death of Baljeet Kaur and her associated remain unsolved, however many point the finger at the Singhs and others (sikh youth) happily accept that her murder was ordered by Sant Jee. A couple of questions arise out of this: Detractors of Sant Jee often paint him and the Kharkoos as violent figures who saw themselves as above the law, administered his own brand of law - here is a excerpt from one of his critics: <<The autocratic Bhindranwale had assumed singular jurisdiction over the guilt and innocence of a good portion of India's citizens. And to him lethal violence was a justified means of punishment for those whom he considered culpable. He was the legislature, executive and judiciary all rolled into one with complete disregard for the democratic concept of the separation of powers. The result was nothing short of 'ethnic cleansing.>> [P S Lamba] I think we can all agree that this is quite some charge levelled against Sant Jee and given recent events in the UK (re: Sikhs in the Square etc) and elsewhere seeking to bring about awareness of Human Rights and effectively "ethnic cleansing" abuses against Sikhs in India, it is quite ironic that at the same time certain people who consider themselves staunch supporters of Sant Jee regard violent actions such as the above to be justified actions and condoned by Sant Jee. I repeat again, the murder of Baljeet Kaur remains unsolved, yet certain Sikhs are keen to tie her torture and murder to Sant Jee solely on the basis of things they have heard. I feel we should clarify this situation very quickly, since it runs the risk of being another instance like the much publicised Kharkoos pulling Hindoos off buses and shooting them, only later to discover that the Kharkoos weren't even Sikhs, but people (agents) dressed up as Sikhs to malign their image - likewise if Sant Jee and/or the Sikhs aren't responsible for this hideous crime, then let's be clear about what we say here. If Sant Jee is responsible, then it is another matter altogether - and we need to understand why. Again, I appeal to our more learned members in the field of Khalistan to please come forth and set the record straight.

Bandit Queen.

militan4evabains, thanks for your update, this sounds more plausible, given the concerns I aired above, however I would be grateful if someone more familiar with the finer details could clarify this once and for all (perhaps members like Bikramjit Singh or Balpreet Singh 132, who have more intimate knowledge of 1980s and the human rights abuses in Punjab could share their knowledge). The next question that arises though, if militan4evabains is the conclusive point, is why did the Singhs go ahead and do this without sanction from Sant Jee (who I cannot believe would have condoned such action?) and once they did it, were they not reprimanded by Sant Jee? Effectively this episode plays into the hands of those who indicate that Khalistanis saw themselves as above the police and the law and set about "jungle justice" and use this to support the actions of KPS Gill who certainly was all about "jungle justice". This is an important issue and one we should have clarified.

So are we suggesting that this women was killed by the Singhs either by burning alive or chopping up (although clearly this seems to be the concurrent theme that everyone seems to point towards including Mark Tully's book Amritsar). Whether or not it was burning or chopping - is it correct to have done this to the Woman - I find it hard to believe that a Singh or a Sant could condone such actions that too within the precints of the Harimandir Sahib. Are we absolutely sure that this was done by the Singhs under Sant Jees command and not some sort of propaganda attempt by other elements? [whatever the outcome - I remain shocked by some of the posters on other forums who seem to be "bigging up" that the Singhs "chopped 'em up proper"].

ms514, thanks for summing this up - Admins, perhaps this is an issue worth sticking alongside other "banned discussions" like raagmala etc. The Panth has made its mind up on this matter and let's leave it at that - the Akal Thakt maryada is one agreed by numerous scholars, sants, bhai sahibs and other reputable individuals, it is truly Panthic as it encompasses all groups (i.e. doesn't divide on the Raagmala issue, the keski issue or the meat issue), now if certain groups owing to their founding members walking out of panthic discussions continue with their fringe society elements, that's up to them - no matter how much they like to to claim they are panthic and support the Akal Thakt, clearly their actions indicate otherwise. Let's move onto more important items, as ms514 veer said - the 5 vices are worth more attention than these little items. Moreover, let's talk about Gurmat Veechar which is a lot deeper than eggs and fish! Try kicking off with Sidh Gohst which covers a good element of Gurmay fundamentals.

Thanks for your input LK Bhraji - Baljit Kaur is believe is the name I have read before, although her exact relationship to Bhai Sodhi Jee I'm uncertain of (not sure if she was his girlfriend or a girl who asked his help because her partner was beating her, or the lover of Sodhi's actual slayer - I've heard/read variations across all such themes), however her murder is quite clear and sadly at times unquestioned by Sikhs themselves. It wasn't simply an elimination (which is bad enough), but torture and murder, given the fact that her body was so grusomely dismembered - I would like to understand more, as to who took responsibility for this (although reading a post on Tapoban, everyone seems to be happily pointing the finger towards the Singhs?) - whatever her malicious actions were, I find it hard to believe that such a revenge attack can be even remotely justified by Gurmat.

Great pics of Bhai Surinder Singh Jee. Quick question - is the reference to the "chopping" referring to the incident of Sodhi's girlfriend who was later hacked to pieces, including severe mutilation (such as the chopping off of her breasts and other body parts)? I understand that a photograph of this women's mutilated body was then later hung outside a certain persons office (those who are more aware of the facts, please confirm details) and that this case remains unsolved to this day (although people above seem to be squarely putting the murder/slaying onto the Singhs/Sant Jee's orders?) Please could someone clarify...

Khalsa Fauj - please could you clarify what you find to be the "Snaatan Mutt/Hindu Mutt propaganda" the yugs and the numbers issue or that some people conclude from Bhai Gurdas Varan that the make up of the Gurmantar Vaheguru from the letters V, H, G and R and their respective mantars?

These accusations are very valid and should be investigated further and stopped - what I find hilarious is the manner in which this one instance has provoked a stride of anti-Ramgarhia comments, whereas not once was a single anti-Singh Sabha comment or anti-bhatra comment made when in the majority of recent cases involving the Singhs from R4SGGSJ campaign have concerned the latter (Singh Sabhas in the main), not only this but also the instances of belly dancing concerned the same group of Gurdwaras, as did the weekly violence over communal affairs, as did the on public TV violence concering tables and chairs, as did the actually abuse of an old lady in Gravesend and the list is endless, despite the accused in the later instances all bearing visible Jatt surnames, not once have we seen a backlash saying these damn jatts sound like idiots, or these Singh Sabhias are a disgrace to the Singh Sabha movement – why, I would hope because we can see beyond that and look to address the problem and not discredit the whole movement or community, however I think would be kidding myself, the truth is the majority of the posters above are themselves from such backgrounds and will never speak ill of their perceived brethren, however with the Ramgarhia case, let’s trash the entire community over one or two instances (some of which have even been remedied as per one post above)…singh sahib is right, let’s get to the root of the problem and not get side tracked with our personal vendettas.

The question that really needs to be asked is why does everyone on one hand wish to "dress up" like a Nihang and then slander them? Oh let me guess, you have bad ones and good ones, but ultimately we all believe that this is the "true khalsa bana" and that "Nihangs are the original Khalsa" and that even Guru Sahib dressed like this (even though no accounts indicate this!!!) because of some glossy articles and a lot of macho bravado... ...reality check - perhaps it is needed for more than just the Nihangs that everyone loves to detest...truth is everyone actually falls for the 'image' and 'personality' everytime and then we accuse others of idol worshipping!!!

Any info on dates for where Gyani Jee will be doing katha around the UK? Please do bring the recordings online.

Here’s another one – a Jatha of Nihangs set camp for the night. After their evening meal, they collectively retire into the tent when one of NIhangs lets rip a fart and exclaims “fauja aageeya” (the armies have arrived) following which the others open the flaps to the tent to let in some fresh air. Shortly thereafter, not wanting to be outdone by the first, another Nihang in the Jatha lets rip an even louder and deadly number and with much enthusiasm announces, “lo jee, aslee fauja hun aaeeya” and again, the remainder of the Jatha opens the flaps to allow in some more fresh air. Seeing this feat on part of the others, a third Nihang in the Group, who has been working up his ammunition, lets rip a stink most deadly and announces “fauja aageeya te dere lagey!”

What I would like to know more about is why the Taksal in particular follows the maryada of having a coconut, water, continuous JapJi Sahib paath, jyot etc during an Akhand Paath - what are these practices symbolising in their view.

Putting the building aside - it is surprising to see so many comments on Badal, who is not even in the pictures whereas our man Captain Amarinder Singh with his dyed beard is presenting a robe of honour to Baba Harnam Singh Bindrawale - a great legacy indeed given that only 20 years ago Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale had made a big speech against dyed beard when Gyani Zail Singh was in power, now his legacy is actually accepting siropas from the Captain! The first post is right - where are the punj pyare? Why aren't they involved with this opening?

Gur Fateh! The above initial responses are warranted as too many times we see the word Hindu and Brahmin and have a knee <admin-profanity filter activated> reaction. From what I recall Brahmins also wear clothes, perhaps we should stop doing that since it is a Brahminism (whatever that maybe) legacy? The coconut and paise can be explained by a tradition common amongst many Eastern cultures whereby to illustrate love, respect or honour towards someone presents are offerred in the form of precious items. Money is commonly used today for instance when offerred to say, one's daughter or son-in-law, however in earlier times when currency perhaps wasn't so freely available, particularly amongst rural communities, this would be expressed through gifting rarer and scarce commodities such as dry fruit (dried dates, sultans, cardamoms et al) which we can witness as still being done during weddings or engagement when the son-in-law is given a platter full of these dry fruit. In line with this, with Punjab located away from any coast, items such as a coconut (which grows among coastal areas) made dry coconut a rarity, hence qualifying for a gift as a token of love or respect. This is exactly the same things as offering money or other valuables to Guru Sahib today - Guru Sahib doesn't need our wealth, it is simply a means of expression (and in many ways practical in running the Langar etc). Many older folk or those from rural Punjab still bring milk, fresh fruit which is simply an extension of the same legacy from rural ladies offering Guru Sahib grain, milk, or other commodities at the time of various Paths being held in the village since offering in kind was easier than monetary means 50 or so years ago.

I went to see this film a week ago, it stars Waris Ahluwalia, the CK model turned actor in the Bill Murray movie Life Aquatic - he is a Keshdhari Sikh. The scenes involving Waris are fine - perhaps people should first watch the movie and then draw conclusions. Unlike the majority of films depicting Sikhs, he doesn't have a comical indian accent, but a full on American one and plays a financier rather than the clown taxi driver, road side tea maker or overweight farmer that most Indian movies like to depict Sardars as. He plays Vikram Valia, a bank employee who is caught up as a hostage during a raid and sent out of the Bank gagged with a message written around his neck. The police outside the bank immediately assume he's an Arab, despite his assertions to being a Sikh and then having beaten him to the ground (his hands are tied by the Bank Raiders), they than rip his Dastaar off his head, whislt his furious protests are ignored and he is dragged away. If anyone if offended by this, then fine - that's what it is supposed to show - a disgraceful act similar to a depiction of violence, assault or rape in a movie, NOT an attack on the Sikhs themselves! It is graphic, but gets the point across moreso... The scene returns to Waris when the police are questioning him - again he protests that he will not speak to them until he is given his turban and explains the disgrace they bestow on him ('where are my civil rights'..'first you beat me, now you want my help'...'this is a religious duty, to honour and respect God before all else'...'can't even board a plane without being pulled aside on some supposed random selection'...'sikh!!! not arab, like your cop colleagues called me'). The scenes are great, the movie is great and I'm glad Spike Lee has chosen to give air to this - the few seconds that Waris is in the scenes he sets a fine motion for what a Turban means to a Sikh, how disgraceful it is to insult one's Turban and moreover remove it and glad to see more roles for Waris Ahluwalia alongside high profile celebrities like Densel Wasington, Jodie Foster and Welhem Defoe. Gur Fateh!

Veer Singh132, As requested... <<What is wrong with them? do they have no respect? isnt it enough disprespect to guru sahib that youve come dolled up like some hindu prostitute but now you have to sit there talking and talking in the darbar sahib?>> [http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=14555&t=14515] There are many of these references available on the same site, explicitly referring to non-keski or non-sikh women - I'm sure you can look for further evidence yourself. The cold water part is nothing strange Balpreet Singh, nor is the recitation of bani (this is what any Amritdhari Sikh would undertake) - I believe that most people know that Ishnaan entails cold water, however the unnecessary codification of this into "Ishnaan di Seva" is nothing but making protocol into a ritual - I guess that me taking off the left leg out of my kachera first, makes my Ishaan "di seva" invalid or non-Gurmat? Or that my kachera may fall short of the knees makes it is anti-Gurmat Kachera, or if it is not white then I'm obviously a Sanatani? I also didn't realise that Guru Sahib keeps a tab on our "seva". As per the quote from sikhawareness, again I do not disagree with you here, you can find plenty of posts from my questioning and objecting to plenty of 'sanatani' beliefs, on the 'all loving' sikhawareness forum and on here, however two wrongs don't make a right. Just to be certain, perhaps I should have spelt out www.tapoban.org rather than "tapoban" as the reference was made to the phorum rather than the Gurdwara Sahib or any institution.

Veer Singh132, As you will have no doubt seen from my comments, I actually no where said that one should not do PUNJ ISHNAAN and my post and beliefs concur with you that it is something to do before having darshan of Maharaj or doing paath. So I have no problem with it - only the earlier poster who thought this was some adaption of Wuzu to which I have objected - it is not, it is uniquely Sikh term and whilst it shouldn't replace a full ishnaan (i.e. in the morning), it is as you say "refreshing". Please could you tell what was so "bitter" about my comments? They are irrelevant as you will note from the below, however in comparison to those that are actively supported by many on Tapoban, Sikhawareness and here - where certain groups of people feel the need to indicate that the only valid Amrit Sachar is as that of their Group (hence an open attack on the sanctity of the Panth and Akal Thakt) that the only valid rehit is that preached by their Baba or Jathedar and that all non-sikh women are prostitutes - these are types of comments which I hope you will agree are more akin to being 'bitter' at the very least. As for the "ishnaan di seva", please see below: 1) We should get up at amritvela. 2) We should try to clean our stomach (through excretion) before doing ishnaan. 3) We should brush our teeth (or use daatun). 4) Tie our keski to our waist, wrap Siri Sahib (kirpaan) around keski and also keep your kanga there. Open our kesh. 5) Use full cold water (no hot water at all) and wash your hair and face. In Canada, water is ice-cold in summer and winter. The feeling after taking shower in cold water is amazing. Consciousness reaches it's maximum. Abhyaas goes automatically. 6) After washing your hair, soak out water and comb your hair and beard. Wash your kanga and place in in your jooRa (hair knot). Tie your keski ( a new one, a fresh one) on your head. 7) Wash your Siri Sahib and Gaatra or use your second set of washed gaatra and Siri Sahib and tie it around your head. 8) Now do ishnaan of your body, again with pure cold water. Such is the affect of cold water (ice cold water) that automatically swaas swaas simran abhyaas starts in full force. The feeling after ishnaan with cold water is undescribible (beyond description). 9) Keep separate towels for your body and hair. Use your body wala towel and dry your body. 10) Remove your kachherra and ensure that the right leg is removed first. Keep the wet kachhera in your left leg for now. 11) Take your new (fresh) kachhera (must be white kachherra, long till knees) and place your right foot or leg in the new kachherra. Now remove your left leg from the wet kachherra and wear your left leg in the new kachherra. 12) All the time while we do ishnaan we must do either Siri Jap jee Sahib or Vaheguru Gurmantra or Mool Mantra. Otherwise Guru Sahib does not accept ishnaan dee sewa. taken from: http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=8921&t=8921

This is not the same as Wuzu (also there is nothing such as MuslimISM!!!) Punj Ishnaan refers to the washing of hands (2), feet (2) and face (1) = (5)! It should not replace a full ishnaan, but is something that no doubt came into prominence during our historical past when situations were more dire. Today, we are recommended (by the Taksal for instance) to have Punj Ishnaan before reciting sohila at night and more generally, before having Darshan of Maharaj in his Darbar. There are no specified rules for this, no matter what elaborate RITUALS our friends at Tapoban may decide to cook up for this (like they have done for "Ishnaan di Seva")