proactive

Note to moderators I pressed the 'null' vote button so have not been able to vote. Is there any way for me to reverse this as having read the posts about Balbir Singh from Jassa et al I would like to vote for Balbir Singh as the real Jathedar of Budha Dal

There was a sense of the envitable there. As far as I know no Sikh ever asked the Indian government to take over the Harmandir Sahib or say that they did not wish to have Sant Bhindranwale there. The SGPC which had the legal possession of the complex never did. So without any evidence that any violence had its origin there the Indian army was sent in. The government never made any application to the SGPC to ask Sant Bhindranwale to leave the complex and there was no arrest warrant in issue for him. So in a sense the Indian government acted without any recourse to any other avenue to diffuse the situation. By then it was a catch 22 situation, nowaday some people who were probably in nappies at that time think they know more about what the situation was like than the people who were there such as Sant Bhindranwale. At that stage either Sant Bhindranwale would have had to surrender and possibly face a fake police encounter and a government campaign to paint him as a coward who talked much but in the end surrendered like a coward. Or he could have faced the army like he said many times. It's up to each Sikh to decide whether in the end the decision was a good one or not. We shouldn't allow the gadaris of people like Longowal, Badal and Santa Singh who sabotaged the subsequent movement which led to it's crushing to colour the way we look at the way Sant Bhindranwale acted.

I never said I wanted Harmandir Sahib or Akal Takht to remain in their damaged condition so please reply to what I say and not what you think i said, there's a big difference between the two. You have a very bad tendency to veer off topic just to make statements. So you think it was the Sikhs who made it into a battlefield? On another thread you said Sant Jarnail Singh was a gem? What are you going on about Harmandir Sahib and Santa Singh? No political speeches or Nindia was ever done in Harmandir Sahib so I don't know where you are getting your facts from. The thing is that contray to Santa Singh's claim to be Jathedar of Budha Dal and head of fifth Takht he had to beat a hasty retreat when it came time for the government to hand over complex to SGPC. Since he claims that Budha Dal is rightful custodian of Akal Takht why didn't he stay there when the SGPC got the complex back. Fact is he would have been lynched by the Singhs if it weren't for his CRPF guards.

So you are saying SGPC told Indira to move out army and SGPC will do Kar Sewa OK that sounds right Indira said No the army will do the sewa Sounds right Nihangs were approached So suddenly from Indira saying no Army will do the work, suddenly Nihangs are approached. Do this make sense to you? When Santa Singh got the sewa SGPC said no one should take the sewa Nice little conspiracy theory. SGPC all the time was saying that as the elected representives of the Panth they were the only ones who should do the sewa. Indira was so scared that Sikhs worldwide would be able to see the damage to Akal Takht that she wanted to get it repaired as soon as possible. She was also scared that SGPC would leave some of the bulletmarks in the complex just as the Indians had done in Jallianwala to show each new generation about the atrocity. Santa helped her out and that was the reason he was kicked out of the Panth and that was why he accepted Tankah in 2001. You can do all the re-writing you want but these are the facts. Dancing warrior The demolition of Akal Takht was undertaken by militants linked to Damdami Taksal after a gathering of Sikhs had rejected the Akal Takht. Whether this was a right decision or not depends on what stand you take. Either you take the stand whatever job Santa had done for his masters was ok and the Akal Takht should be accepted by Sikhs or you take the view that it was for the Sikhs to undertake the kar Sewa and not Nihangs under the pay of Delhi helped out by Indian government builders. In which case the demolition was the correct thing to do. I can see where you are going with this, Santa does something wrong but the ones who demolished the Akal Takht because of his accepting government money did a worst thing than he did. Now look at it from this angle, the Militants wouldn't have needed to demolish the Akal Takht if Santa Singh hadn't accepted the Sarkar Sewa. If Santa Singh had done what he has done throughout his life pre-1984 and post 1984 then we wouldn't be arguing over the demolition. Santa Singh tried to do one thing in Panthic affairs in 1984 and totally botched it up. That Kalank will be on his forehead forever. No Panthic Jathebandi had approached Santa Singh to do anything and it was on his own intiative he took to helping out Indira Gandhi. Where did I wish Santa Singh dead? All I said that all gadars suffer a bad fate in the end.

Jassa stop trying to rewite history just to big up Santa Singh. Other Sikhs organisations apart from SGPC were approached to do the Kar Sewa and EACH ONE refused solely because they agreed with the SGPC and the Panth that they wanted the compex to be freed from the jackboot of the Indian Army before the Kar Sewa could begin. Only Santa Singh agreed to do his Sarkar Sewa while the Indian Army was still in the complex. I remember reading at the time that some SGPC official said ' they think they are Guru Hargobind's Nihangs but they are more like Indira Gandhi's Nihangs' There are even pictures around which show Santa Singh sitting there directing the Sarkar Sewa while Central Reserve Police Force are providing armed protection. Guru Ki Ladli Fauj getting protection from Indian government

This is what Bhai Amritpal Singh says on that website which unfortunately people afflicted with a low attention span and a closed mind might have missed I am not associated with Akhand Keertani Jatha (AKJ), so I am not going to speak for the AKJ So his website starts and ends in Bhai Randhir Singh's point of view. Did you actually bother to look at the website or was the fact that he questioned your beliefs about Budha Dal enough to send you scuttling out of that website! If you had spent a bit more time there you might have actually learnt something new. 'The Truth will set you free' Jassa Sio!

Charandoor Singh Anyone who stays in an organisation like Budha Dal which takes money from Indira Gandhi to rebuild the Akal Takht against the will of the Panth is a Chamcha. You've just spend the whole of this thread asking me justify this when it should have been obvious to you what I meant by Surjit Singh being Santa Singh's chamcha. A True Sikh would have spoken out against Santa Singh's gadari and left that organisation. Only chamchas stay with gadars, chamchas like Zail Singh and Buta Singh who stayed in congress after 1984. I know loyalty to the Panth is a hard concept to grasp for those that lionise Santa Singh but in some circles loyalty to Panth still matters. Are you not a sanatanist? You've views as expressed on this forum seem to be so, if you are not then my apologies. Perhaps you could clear this up for me. I've only expressed the view that six people on this forum are sanatanists and I've disagreed with many others apart from these six so you feeble view that I paint all those who do not agre with me as sanatanists is factually incorrect. I think I have already said on some other thread that I am not a member of AKJ and I do not agree with all that AKJ believe but I still respect them as a Panthic organisation and unlike some organisations that go around mouthing off that they are 'Guru Ki Ladli fauj' and living off the past glory of the Khalsa, AKJ have never betrayed the Panth.

Easily swayed?? I think you've got the wrong person here, if anything it's the sanatan followers that are easily swayed. Most of the sanatan websites are just 'so and so baba said'. Nothing concrete and as Chatanga wrote Amritpal Singh's website is research, something that is sadly lacking in the sanatan websites, although if you want to look at some old murals then the websites can provide that but not much else. Do the Sewapanthis and other branches accept the Budha Dal lineage as it is written in the sanatan websites or do they just accept that like them Budha Dal has a history same as these organisations. It's surprising that you use Damdami Taksal's beliefs in order to justify Budha Dal lineage when the sanatan websites did not even accept Damdami Taksal as a samprada initially but then changed tack and accepted only one branch and not the mainstream Bhindran Taksal. Amritpal Singh's website is a bit more than a few pages on a personal article as you claim. The facts are there for all to see and if they have the knowledge to dispute yet even the webmaster of Niddar hasn't accepted Amritpal Singh's invitation to a debate and this is the person from whose overactive imagination the sanatan websites owe their origin. As yet not one the sanatanists like yourself, Namstang, Jassa, Mahakaal Singh, Dancing Warrior or Gurbar Akaal has been able to dispute what Amritpal Singh has wriiten. I assume you wish me to comment on your assertion that Surjeet Singh was looking after the Budha Dal horses. So what? You claim it is a big sewa and your point is?

But one particular religion has the most fanatics!

Baba Nihal Singh is not part of Budha Dal - hes Jathedar of Hareeabelan which is under Budha Dal. He already has a huge seva which he is doing. That article is a result of the research by and a presentation of the opions of veer Amritpal Singh, it does not necessarily equate to fact. He seems eager to just prove the Satanan websites wrong in everything they have done. I think if someone wishes to undermine a long standing organisation such as the Budha Dal; they should present much more material on the topic than has been presented by Amritpal Singh. All the article shows is that there may have been two or more people who lived at similar times that shared the same name - hardly a shocking discovery. Charandoor Singh So there were 2 people by the names of Baba Binod Singh, how about Baba Jassa Singh Ahluwalia? Were there also two Akali Phoola Singhs? Were there two people by that name as well. Bhai Amritpal Singh has shown the stuff on the sanatan websites to be the product of a unhinged mind. This is what happens when people with an agenda to divide Sikhs try their hand at writing about Sikh history. Let's see what a hash Niddar makes of his attempt at history writing.

The case of these scumbags is being covered by Panorama tonight at 7am on BBC1. I will look into the fact that these turds were seen in the company of one of the 7/7 bombers. Another piece of crud was arrested in Southall last week along with that abu izzadeen guy.

Yes it really is the Muslims! The people on this forum that looking for BJP conspiracies need to get a really check. There were problems a few years ago in one of the villages outside Ludhiana when the Bhayya Muslims wanted to take over some land which they said was a mosque before 1947. The problem will get worse because not only Muslims from Bihar are coming to Punjab but Gujjar Muslims from Kashmir have started to buy land in villages as well as lots of Bangladeshi Muslims moving in. I'm waiting for Jassa and his Nihangs to do something about this. Over to you Jassa Sahib.

Why do I think both of the are as bad as each other? One is being accused of promoting alcohol and building Mandirs with Guru Granth Sahib being installed in them The other one was Santa Singh's chamcha when he was taking Indira Gandhi's money for rebuilding the Akal Takht.

I've come across such explanations before but I disagree. Investing in the stock market is not the same as gambling. Look at the two scenarios You go to cash and carry and buy 100 items for £100. You've done your research and set up a stall and sell each item for £2 each thereby making a 100% profit. £200 for an outlay of £100. That's called Trading or Vapaar in Punjabi. You do your research and find out that company called Sikhsangat Corp is doing well and selling a lot of their products. You buy shares at £1 each and when the company announces its annual profits which have increased, the value of the company goes up and your shares increase to £2 a share. I can understand if stock trading just involved picking a company out of thin air and hoping for the best, that's gambling but the Kirat comes in when you spend hours doing research into the company. What some people forget is that stocks are offered in IPOs as a way of raising money for new ventures and by having shares in a company you are supporting a particular sector of the economy. Having said that I wouldn't buy stocks in companies that produce weapons or that involve gambling such as casino stocks.

Seems like a character assassination piece on Balbir Singh. I'm sure both guys are a bad as each other but at least Balbir Singh disassociated himself from Santa Singh for his pro-government actions in 1984. So Santa Singh is mentally disabled? Is that recent thing because he couldn't have been mentally balanced in 1984. Anyway it's well know what fate gaddars suffer in the end.

I think we need to clarify that Sanatan Sikhism and Sanatan Dharma are two different movements/religions. Sanatan Dharama is the older form of Hindu Dharam without new accretions such as Arya Samaj and Bhakti movements like Kabir Panth as well as new age cults like Hare Krishnas. Sanatan Sikhism or Sanatanism has been defined to a certain extent as per it's greatest proponents and through the sanatan websites and Niddar's talks. The fact that both of these sources of information are highly flawed and easily refutable does not then mean that sanatanism has been incorrectly defined by them but that sanatanism is flawed and has only a minor connection with Sikhi. in order to keep Sanatanism alive and to deflect the academic scrutiny Niddar and his gang have purposefully kept the definition loose, any questions regarding a particular issue in Sanatanism is met with 'why don't you find out yourself, I don't want to spoon feed you' This is in marked contrast with legitimate movements which are all too eager to share information as well as answer any queries someone might have. The Sanatanism of Niddar and the websites is just old wine in new bottles. It has been refuted by the likes of Gyani Ditt Singh, Bhai Jawahar Singh, Bhai Vir Singh and a host of other scholars. The Sanatanists have a tendency to accept a certain number of books as well as authors as infallible. Books such as Suraj Panth Parkash and authors such as Kavi Santokh Singh and Gyani Gyan Singh. These authors writing 150 to 200 years after the events they were writing about cannot be relied on 100 percent and their writings need to be read along with other works such as Sri Guru Sobha which is much older and authored by someone who was a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh. The thread Guru Gobind Singh and Bhaugati is a case in point where we can see how on event not even mentioned in a contemporary account is embellished by each sucessive author until it become a central event in the creation of the Khalsa.

I beg to differ, the sanatanists have their own website and they call their hotch potch beliefs sanatan sikhism. There may be problems between different jathas but it is only when the sanatan gang came into being through Niddar, Jagdeep, Kamalroop and Bob that things have got worse. JLB is a creation of sanatan beliefs diluted with his previous shi'ite beliefs. He has brought his Shia tendency to curse anyone who does not believe as he does, something that is totally unsikhlike. You know something by the fruit it brings forth and sanatanism has brought forth JLB who has just brought forth the worst Nindya of Guru Nanak that is possible. When people like Niddar create an atmosphere where anything goes then you will get every nut with a axe to grind against Sikhi make an appearance and take a sanatan guise to create havoc in Sikhi. When an atmosphere of Sikh insulting Sikh is created then you have people like JLB make an appearance. Previous to sikhawareness I had never heard of AKJ being referred to as Ram Raias or Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and his followers being called terrorists or the Shaheeds of 1978 as vegetarian fanatics! Maybe by Hindus and Congressi Sikhs but never by Singhs who were wearing Bana. JLB has used the same arguments that Niddar uses, one of the reasons he calls Guru Nanak a Muslim is because he says that Guru Nanak was asked by the Hajis in Mecca to look into the book that he was carrying to show who was greater Hindus or Muslims. Niddar during his talks has referred to this book as the Quran and has called Prof Sahib Singh who in Aad Bir Bare states the book to have been a Pothi of Guru Nanak's bani as wrong. If you critically analyse this episode then a rational person would ask 'why would a group of Muslims ask Guru Nanak to look into the Quran to see who is greater Hindus or Muslim?' When in the Quran Hindus as polytheists and idol worshippers are seen as the lowest form of creation and the Muslims as the 'best of people'. It doesn't make sense, the only rational explanation would be if Muslims wanted to question Guru Nanak what HIS belief was regarding Hindus and Muslims. Anyway full respect to you for countering JLB on that forum!

JLB used to be and still might be a part of the Niddar gang. He's well known amongst the sanatanists and most of them are his chamchas. JLB is a classic Guru Ka Nindak and many people knew what he was upto years ago but because he had support from the Niddar gang he pretty much ran the sikhawareness forum. Like a Behroopia he changes to suit his audience, one minute he's a Nirmala, another he's a shia and in the next he's a Nihang. It will be interesting to see what happens now, whether the sanatanists are so far gone in their cult that people like JLB can say anything and get away with it even if it is clearly Guru Nindya.

Usually most of the posters on that forum kiss Javanmard/Lalleshvari/Bahadur Singh 'Nirmala' 's backside but nice to see some of them still have a love for Sikhi and can defend it now that JLB (jalebi) has finally flipped. I wonder what the Mods like Namstang who post here think about JLB now. JLB was one of the punjabi radio stations last year doing katha about the creation of the Khalsa and now he's telling Sikhs that Guru Nanak was a Muslim! What's the view of all the Sanatanists here about JLB's view on Guru Nanak? Posters like Mahakaal, Gurbar Akaal, Jassa etc

personally I don't think there is anything wrong in it. Nowadays it can be difficult for Sikhs to get introduced to other Sikhs with a view to marriage. Many Sikhs live in or work in a career where there is very little opportunity to meet other Sikhs. From what I have heard of previous speed meeting events it's not a dodgy dating service.

Apparently Indira Gandhi's chumchas were so against the SGPC and the Panth undertaking the Kar Seva that they scoured the Punjab countryside looking for any Baba who would take on the task of undertaking the Kar Sewa. Every Baba they approached, even those who did not get on with the SGPC all laid the pre-conditon that they along with the SGPC wanted the Indian army which had just murdered 1000s of Sikhs in the complex to be withdrawn. Only one person did not lay this pre-condition and that was Santa Singh. He didn't feel the irony that he was re-constructing the Akal Takht under guard and watched over by the very army that had destroyed it. The Singhs of old made the Afghans of Abdali clear the Srowar which they had polluted but Santa Singh did the exact opposite! May Akal Purkh save the Panth from such 'jathedars' Mod note: Topic starter had a genuine question on Sikhi about the Rehit kept by many Khalsay and our responsibility is to speak with respect, pyaar and understanding. Due to a number of off-topic posts topic is closed.

I didn't really want to comment on this issue but Mahakaal's comment needs to be addressed. So giving the Harmandir Sahib back to the SGPC by the Indian government which had illegally occupied it was a CONTRACT! Belittling an event like that just shows how low some people can descend to in order to hide the true facts. So according to you Santa Singh didn't do anything wrong but because he had so much Nimrata he allowed himself to be judged by the very people (SGPC) who he doesn't recognise and who if Santa Singh is to be believed took over the Nihang's right to be Jathedars of Akal Takht! It takes a special kind of logic to be able to put forth comments like that So where was Santa Singh's nimrata in 1984 when he went against the majority of the Panth? Did his nimrata develop over the years 1984-2001 until it was so great that he could come before the Akal Takht in 2001?

yep and do answer this ..... Well if you accept that the word Nihang does not mean a Sukha drinking, member of an organisation called Budha Dal then you are right the Khalsa can be a Nihang :TH:

I think it's best to put the Nihangs and 1984 question for another thread because nowadays on this forum the easiest way to close an inconvenient thread is to bring this issue up. It's up to the fuure generations of Sikhs to determine whether the Kharkoos were the true Singhs in the tradition of Khalsas like Banda Singh Bahadur, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh or the Nihangs of today. Back to the thread. Jassa Singh hasn't shown any proof that any of the Panj Pyare, the Singhs of Banda Singh, Tat Khalsa, Dal Khalsa, Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal of 18th century were Nihangs. Just calling someone 96 crore, or Akali or Farladhari doesn't prove that person was a Nihang. Nihangs came later and they came from one section of the Misls, one out of 12 , 1/12th of the Dal Khalsa, or 1/13 if you include the Singhs of the Phulkian states like Patiala, Jind and Nabha. So Jassa Singh were these Singhs of Malwa also Nihangs? They took Amrit and most were all warriors yet they fought in the state armies of Patiala, Jind and Nabha and not connection with the Misl Shaheedan. So what were they, were they your pkj? So did 1/12th or 1/13th of Sikhs suddenly become the original Khalsa when there were hundreds of thousands of others who were not Nihang. It's easy to mock when one doesn't have the ability to debate. You asked whether Puggs worn by Singhs then are the same as puggs now. Of course not and if you see some of the old pictures from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time you will see that the Pugg worn was different and nothing like the domala that Nihangs wear. Here is a pic from Maharaja Sher Singh's time This is a pic of a military camp on the move and yet only two characters of about 30 have obvious Nihang domala or Nihang clothes. Here is another pic from 1790s Bengal of a Sikh Notice the Gol Pugg and not the typical domala of the Nihangs also no obvious Farla. I could put up much more pictures of the period and they clearly show you contention about Nihangs as being the original Khalsa as being incorrect

If Narinder Singh asks a question of Jassa then please allow him to answer it. Pleae do not attempt to answer the question which you invariable know willbring If yo forth more questions especially you claim that Nihangs give Shaheedi in 1984. The impression being that their contribution was at par with the mainstream Sikhs. Such answers will naturally invite more questions. Your request for admin to close this thread seems like a panic reaction to not being able to justify your first naswer. If you don't like to participate in this thread then that is your choice, no one has forced you to contribute here but please have respect for those who wish to see a discussion on Jassa's claim that all Sikhs were once Nihangs and that Nihangs were the original Khalsa. To Admin and Moderators Please do not close this thread as before kaal tuhi's contribution it was going along well and had not been diverted.