proactive

If Narinder Singh asks a question of Jassa then please allow him to answer it. Pleae do not attempt to answer the question which you invariable know willbring If yo forth more questions especially you claim that Nihangs give Shaheedi in 1984. The impression being that their contribution was at par with the mainstream Sikhs. Such answers will naturally invite more questions. Your request for admin to close this thread seems like a panic reaction to not being able to justify your first naswer. If you don't like to participate in this thread then that is your choice, no one has forced you to contribute here but please have respect for those who wish to see a discussion on Jassa's claim that all Sikhs were once Nihangs and that Nihangs were the original Khalsa. To Admin and Moderators Please do not close this thread as before kaal tuhi's contribution it was going along well and had not been diverted.

There is no need to be confused. Just keep in mind that we celebrate Baisakhi day as 'Khalsa Sirjana Divas' and not as 'Nihang Sirjana Divas'. The word Nihang exists only on the fringes whereas as the word Khalsa is centre stage in Sikhi.

I'm glad that rather than what you did previously you at least took time to read some of what is on that website. The word Nihang may mean a member of Budha Dal nowadays but it didn't mean the same thing in the 1680s. How is it that Nihangs were present in the pre-1699 battles of Guru Gobind Singh when even according to you Nihangs were created in 1699! Only Rattan Singh Bhangu in 1840's refers to Sikh warriors as Nihangs. Previous to this all writers refer to Sikh warriors as Khalsa or Singhs. You are you implying that Guru Gobind Singh referred to his warriors as Nihangs a decade before you claim the Nihangs were created, then for the next 150 years no Sikh writer chooses to refer to these warriors as Nihangs and the suddenly in the 1840s the Sikhs rediscovered that Nihangs had been created in 1699 and started to refer to them as such! If anything the word Nihang with it's modern meaning has been projected back solely because of it's use in Bachittar Natak. So now the Sahibzadas were Nihangs as well! Thank you for your concern about by lack of peaceful sleep but I can assure you that I sleep well at night! :TH:

To Admin and Moderators I hope you will allow this thread to remain open and not let it be spoilt by personal attacks. I won't refer to anyone as a hater or as a nindak and I hope others will also do the same. I hope Jassa also refrain from these acts as well and we can all have a productive discussion. If anyone breaks the forum rules I trust that that person will be dealt with according to the forum rules Regards

Calm down Jassa. If you want to discuss something than do so in a calm manner, it is so easy to dismiss someone who you can't refute as a hater Calling someone names and as a nindik is so easy but it's harder to refute what is wriiten. So here goes my refutation, as in my other posts I do not need to call people as haters or make untrue accusations against that person. Nowhere have I tried to set one sampadha against another. I think you've got this intra-sampardha jealousy thing in your head, what sampardha have I dissed and which sampardha have I talked up? None. I just stated some of the findings of Amrit Singh and these finding and research seem to me to be based on good research. The fairy stories you talked about was that all Sikhs were Nihangs and that Budha Dal maryada is the only one that was given by Guru Gobind Singh. To me these are fairy stories and not based on fact. On a good analysis of the word Nihang in Bachiitar Natak and Dasam Granth read this. You might actually learn a new skill called critical analysis. http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/in_dasamgranth.html As for Domallas these only came into use with Naina Singh who Nihangs claim succeeded Jassa Singh Ahluwalia as 'chief' of Budha Dal. Same goes for the Farla. Nowhere is Farla or Domalla mentioned by Kavi Sainapati who lived for many years in the court of Guru Gobind Singh and wrote his book in 1711. The words used by him for Turbans is not Domalla but Dastar and Pugg. Sikhs are referred to as Sikh, Singh, Khalsa and nowhere is the word Nihang mentioned which is strange because only 12 years before Kavi Sainapat wrote his book Guru Gobind according to you created the Nihangs. Banda Singh had 5 Nihangs with him? Impossible my friend as Nihangs didn't exist. Next you'll be saying Krishna had Nihangs with him as well. As for RSS the only Singhs the RSS does not fear it is the Nihangs. RSS fears any Singh committed to the Panth. Out of all the Singhs you mentioned perhaps only Baba Deep Singh could perhaps be thought of as a Nihang and that mainly because he belonged to the Misl Shaheedan. But in character and love for the Panth Baba Deep Singh surpasses any of the so-called Jathedars of the Budha Dal since it's revival in the 1880s.

The Amritworld website is based on analysis while the sanantan website or the fairy stories that Nihangs like Jassa subscribe to are based on so and so said this and that. When you start to believe in fairy stories it's difficult to stop and then you will believe things such as Nihangs were involved in the war between the Devi and the Rakshashs. Even though if such an event ever took place it would place that event tens of thousands of years before the Nihangs came into existence out of the remnants of the Misl Shaheedan. Simple fact Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa in 1699 and Nihangs. The majority of Sikhs of Dal Khalsa were never Nihangs because no such thing as a Nihang existed at that time. Amrit Singh gives a good analysis of the word Nihang and how it's use as a member of the Budha Dal has been projected back into history. Nihang as a word for a wandering Sikh warrior was first used in the 1880s. Some of the ironic things to come out of Amrit Singh's research is that some of the descendents of the Misl Shaheedan ( Haryana Sikh states ) actively aided the British during their assault on the Khalsa Army. Not quite in line with the malesh Khalsa concept that UK Nihangs cast on mainstream Sikhs. Basic history for those who are interested in historical research and analysis and not old wives' tales. 1699 - Guru Gobind Singh creates the Khalsa Panth. No mention made of Nihangs by Javi Sainapat writer of the contemporay events in Sri Guru Sobha. No mention of Farlas or Dumalas or anything that can be classed Nihangism. Just Khalsa and non-Khalsa Sikhs. 1708 - 1716 Banda Singh Bahadur is Jathedar of Khalsa Panth 1716-1720 Banda Singh's forces split into Tat Kalsa and Bandai Khalsa ( still no Budha Dal or Nihangs exist) 1720s to 1730s Tat Khalsa gains upper hand over Bandai Khalsa 1730s Tat Khalsa creates Budha Dal and Tarna Dal of Khalsa. 1750s to 1760s Budha Dal and Tarna Dal gain control of most of Punjab 1770s to 1801 Dal Khalsa spilts into various Misls. Only Misl Shaheedan exists as a moving band whilst other Misls settle down back to settled life 1801-1849 Khalsa state, the Akalis or proto-Nihangs exist only as roving bands and create problems for the Khalsa Sarkar as well mainstream Sikhs. Some members of Misl Shaheedan settle down as well in Haryana and become mainstream Sikhs. 1849 With the British annexation Akalis or proto-Nihangs either disarm same as the general population or lead a roving existence 1850s to 1900 Various bands of Akalis now known as Nihangs exist, some are in Nander. One Band has to ask British permission to move back to Punjab. 1880s Budha Dal revived by bands of Nihangs moving back to Punjab. Having lived in a non-Sikh environment some of the Nihang culture is characterised by the adoption of Sakat and Shivaite practices which were strong in the Punjab hills. 1984 Budha Dal betrays the Panth and gains support from Indian government No much of a history for Nihangs but then again history is never pretty so I can guess the reason why some people need to believe in hidden knowledge and hidden scriptures.

I think that nowadays it has become fashionable to criticise the Sikh leaders of that time and exonerate Dr Ambedkar. The truth is a bit different. If you read the biography of Bhai Narain Singh who was the first manager of the Nankana Sahib Estate after Mahant Narayan was kicked out and who was allocated the task of creating the educational institutes for these new Sikhs. He says that there was fault on both sides as well as with Gandhi as he was against Dalits becoming Sikhs. Many of the Akali leaders were more interested in running for upcoming elections to SGPC at the time and Dr Ambedkar was milking the Sikhs for everything he could get. Khalsa College in Bombay was built purely as an educational institute for the followers of Dr Ambedkar. The Akali Dal created the 'Sarb Hind Sikh Mission' as an organisation to provide the logistical infrastructure for the conversions. The Akalis had even been willing to entirely fund the creation of a newspaper just to publicise the writings of Dr Ambedkar. Ambedkar thought that with his millions of followers he could take over Sikhi but when he found that he could only play a minor role in Sikh politics because he had virtually no followers in North India he gave up his plan to convert to Sikhi. A few good outcomes from the Dr Ambedkar episode was that the Sikhs refugees fleeing Sind and Punjab who came to Bombay had a first class educational institute to cater for their needs. The SGPC became more interested in Sikhi Parchar outside Punjab and set up the Aligarh and Hapur Sikh missions in UP. Just as a sidenote, the Indian constitution which lumps Sikhs along with the Hindus was the creation of Dr Ambedkar.

budhdal has oldest and unchanged mareyada .... unchanged unedited not influnced by any mahapursh or sant .... its true and real .... budhdals mareyada is as stated by dasme pita while giving amrit to punj peyare in 1699 .... unlike other mareyadas edited over and over again ..... That's strange because Budha Dal didn't exist in 1699 and neither did the Nihangs Budha Dal came about in the 1730s and the present Budha Dal of Santa Singh has only the faintest connection with that Budha Dal. See http://www.amritworld.com/nihangs/index.html for a scholarly analysis of Nihangs :TH: If you want fairy stories go to the sanatan websites

I'm well out of touch with what people are up to nowadays. When I was at uni we used to play football in the park or meet up with mates and go bowling or pool/snooker. Nowadays people just sit on their backsides and chat rubbish on msn and that face thingymebob. Advice to people get out of your rooms and do some sport or even just go for a walk. No offence to anyone but people using msn or face whatever are just saddos.

Jassa Sio, I don't want to get into a big discussion so this will be my lost post on this topic. I don't believe that Farla was started by Guru Gobind Singh therefore no need to waste time listening to people talking about it. I hope that is clear for you. :umm: ))))

u have just wasted ur 2 minutes in writing about farla .... :nihungsmile: .... angoor khate hai ... No my quick off the mark Mittar, I took 2 minutes to give my opinion to the forum members. Now they will understand why I don't waste my time listening to talks on Farlas :TH:

Taking over a House of God and burning religious material is totally wrong. What if that so-called religious material contains mistranslations of Gurbani to make out that Satguru in Gurbani is referring to JESUS? Look at how the Christians are using the words associated with Sikhi to promote their own religion. 'Parchar' 'Kendra' and nowadays I've even seen signs for 'Maseehi Ruhaani Satsang' on the lines of the Radhaswamis. Sikhi is facing challenges from all sides whether it's the VHP/RSS or the Christian missionaries. Sikhs shouldn't be blind and think that just because the VHP is against Sikhi so that we should support Christians because they are also under attack from VHP. THe VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal have pretty much kicked out the majorities of the Christian Missionaries out of the areas where they were making the most progress ie the tribal areas so now the Missionaries are flocking to Punjab like ravenous wolves because in Punjab they can twist Gurbani and Sikhs will do nothing. If anyone can kick out the Christian Missionaries out of Punjab it won't be the Sikhs but the VHP/RSS.

No offence to anyone here especially none of the Nihangs but personally I have no interest in Farlas or any Farla maryada. Whether someone wears a Farla or not has no impact on my life so why should I waste my time listening someone go on about what it is and how it is to be worn. No offence to Baba Nihal Singh, I'm sure he did a lot for the Panth during the 80s.

Jassa you're posts are getting more and more bizarre Thanks for the entertainment buddy.

Yeah you need to live in a country to know exactly what's going on. New Jersey's a bit too far from the north of England for you to know what you are talking about. I thought I had come up with a good snide response but I suppose it was lost on you 'cos you need a certain amount of intelligence to understand even snide remarks!

Maybe 'smart'singh24 should read the posts rather than just make snide comments. He could learn something for his assignments at community college

Off topic and unnecessary. Sitting in New Jersey you would know what is off topic in the UK

One thing about Gurdas Mann videos there's always some layabout Jogi type singing some song about love or something. Always find that funny. Although Mann's Sarbans Dani song is very good though spoiled by the jingoistic Indian patriotism in the video.

Organisations such as Nihangs, RSS and Shiv Sena have to get arms licences through their political patrons. It's impossible to get a licence for a group without patronage. For arms licences you have to get police verification for your good character.

I wouldn't be surprised if that suggestion came from that political dwarf Ruth Kelly, she's the minister for communities and social cohesion or something silly like that. She's the one that went to Leeds and Bradford after the tube bombings and whilst the Pakistanis expected to be sent to concentration camps and put on the next plane home she said 'I've come to listen to your grieviences, here's some cash please don't bomb us'! That's when the Pakistanis knowing they got away with it started to shout and abuse her Rather than asking for union jacks for mosques Tony should be deporting the scum who support the suicide bombing terrorists. Mainu vi chonan vich kharhna chahida

Relax dude, since when was expressing an opinion a crime? Here's a comment just to keep you happy Nihangs are the best fighters in the world and have fought for the Panth in every morcha since they were created in 1699. Akali Baba Farladhari Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji Khalsa Jathedar of 96 crore Akali Nihang Buddha Dal has been at the forefront of the struggle to gain justice for the 1984 genocide as well as punish the guilty police officials who killed innocent Sikh youth during the period 1984-95 Hun Ta Khush hoja Bablu

There was a lot of negative comment on their marriage in the UK papers mainly because the palace they married in which next door to a slum where people were living on a few rupees a day while their wedding cost crores of rupees.

I think the rifles are licenced possibly through Congress ministers, Nihangs have probably taken a vow never to point them towards the enemies of the Panth and they are only for decorative use! Admin Note: First warning issued.

Let's be honest, which country doesn't look after it's best interests. Iran in the 80s looked like it could defeat Iraq and then it would have created a dangerous situation in the middle east. Iran is shia and there are large shia minorities in Saudi Arabia and gulf states. Shias are as fanatic and intolerant as the sunnis and the shias might have risen up in Saudi and gulf states creating a big problem in the oil supply. USA couldn't allow that. If they just sat back then we would have been paying $10 a litre. Iranians tried to export their brand of Islamic fundamemtalism to Punjab in the 80s. A number of Iranian students were sent to Punjab university in Chandigarh. They tried to make contacts with Shias in Punjab and north India. It was only because a few of these Iranians were killed by Kharkos in 1986-87 that Iran gave up. Amir Tahiri who wrote about Iran has a small snippet about this in his book holy terror I think.

When you get the powerful country like the USA then all the small countries will criticise them. Saddam was US's ally because he opposed Iran. So what's the problem with that? Iran was more dangerous in 80s and they even tried to export Islamic fundamentalism to Punjab in the 80s. When Iran quietened down after the ayotollah died then Saddam got too big for his boot and invaded Kuwait and US stepped in and threw him out. After 9/11 US has been trying to keep the world safe for non-Muslims.