>Bikramjit Singh<

OMG I missed the Gurjster's birthday I thought her birthday was sometime in August!! Ok it all makes sense now around the 18th July I got a lot of abusive text messages threatening to get me 'duffed up' now I know who sent them. Sorry Man, that's such a funny story, even funnier when I imagine the people shouting in a brummie accent..LOL You should write these stories down and publish them in a literary column in Punjab Times entitled BRUMMIE DESH DIYAN CHOAWVIYAN KAHANIYAN

Btw that Naseem guy who was on the panel has just shown the goray what a 'moderate' muslim really is ------------------------------------------- Leading cleric rails at injustice of 'Muslim bashing' By Nick Britten (Filed: 28/07/2005) The most senior Islamic cleric in Birmingham claimed yesterday that Muslims were being unjustly blamed in the war on terrorism and that the eight suspects in the two bombing attacks on London "could have been innocent passengers". Mohammad Naseem, the chairman of the city's central mosque, called Tony Blair a "liar" and "unreliable witness" and questioned whether CCTV footage issued of the suspected bombers was of the perpetrators. He said that Muslims "all over the world have never heard of an organisation called al-Qa'eda". Mr Naseem, who was speaking after police seized Yasin Hassan Omar in Birmingham, delivered his unprompted outburst when he was invited to a press conference with West Midlands police and Birmingham city council to help calm fears of racial or religious tension after the arrest. It was held near the police cordon in Heybarnes Road, where Omar was arrested. His comments shocked senior police officers. Sources said that attempts to encourage Muslims to pass them information on the bombers' activities would be hindered. One said: "We are trying to gain the trust of the Muslim community and these kinds of comments have the opposite effect. All they do is encourage communities to close ranks against us." To the obvious embarrassment of council officials and police standing next to him, Mr Naseem said the Government and security services "were not to be relied upon". He said: "Tony Blair has told lies on going to Iraq and in a court of law if a witness has proved to be a liar he ceases to be a reliable witness. So we cannot give our blind trust to the Government. "To have that trust it is important that the process of law should be independent, open and transparent. I am also sad that unfortunately the impression has been given that Muslims are to be targeted in this war against terror. There seems to be a directive to target Muslims. Why do we not have an open mind about this? "Muslim bashing seems to be more earnest than the need for national unity and harmony. Terrorists can be anybody - we will have to see [whether the bombers are Muslims]. The process is not open; the process is not transparent; the process is not independent. I do not have faith in the system as it stands." Mr Naseem is one of the most respected Muslims in the city and is considered a moderate. He has regular meetings with the chief constable to discuss religious harmony. Mr Naseem said that while it was vital that terrorism was stamped out and that there was never any justification for it, the Government had not helped by going to war in Iraq. Dismissing the Prime Minister's insistence that the war had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks, he said: "Tony Blair … is not going to be perceived as a reliable witness. His comments could motivate someone to take the law into his own hands. "Some people have been caught but I have not seen any evidence. The process of law is not open." Asked about the suspects' DNA being found at the scene of the first attacks, he said: "DNA can match you, but that does not mean you are going to commit a crime. Thousands of youths are passing by and caught on CCTV, so how do you know it is them?" He added: "We must rely upon trust that we have between communities. "We must remain united in the fight against terrorism but the process should be independent and open, not like the Hutton inquiry, not like the Lord Butler inquiry." And, in an editorial in The Dawn, the central mosque's newsletter, Mr Naseem writes: "Where is the evidence that four youths whose pictures were caught on CCTV cameras…were the perpetrators? How did we reject the possibility they were just innocent victims of this terrible happening? They had bought return train tickets."

The only difference is that NO Sikh would try and gain funds for the setting up of a Gurdwara from say a Church by trying to present the transaction in such a supremacist way. Only in Islam can this happen and it comes as no surprise. isn't is strange that someone who would claim to be religious and following his religion has to present the transaction in such terms. I suppose that's why you get some devout members of a particular religion placing bombs on trains and buses.

I think MKLQ was probably referring to the way the quran condemns all people who refuse to follow mohammed calling some human beings as animals solely because they will not follow mohammed. There is no such condemnation in the Guru Granth Sahib. Just a small point but can posters use their common sense and not reply with such points without proper elaboration that are likely to create confusion amongst non-Sikhs who might use this site. Anyone non-Sikh who has read the quran with all it's threats and condemnations and then reads a Sikh writing that the Guru Granth Sahib also contains similar things will most likely be put off from reading the Guru Granth Sahib.

I think that it will take an attack much closer to home to wake the liberal media from it's sleep. I saw this article linked from a another forum ========= UK Gay Leaders Receive Death Threats From Muslim Fundamentalists Group Says by Malcolm Thornberry 365Gay.com European Bureau Chief (London) A British LGBT civil rights group says its leaders have received death threats from Muslim fundamentalists and warns that gay clubs could be targets for terrorist bombers. "Gay venues could be bombed by Islamic terrorists," OutRage said Monday. "All gay bars and clubs should introduce bag and body searches. Muslim fundamentalists have a violent hatred of lesbians and gay men. They believe we should be killed. Our community could be their next target. This is no time for complacency." The warning comes in the wake of this months terrorist attack in London. (story) More than 50 people died in the bombings that authorities say were the work of Islamic militants. One bomb went off in a crowded bus, the others exploded in the subway system, two near stations in gay neighborhoods. OutRage said that three of the group's officers have received "repeated death threats from Islamic fundamentalists in recent weeks and months." Peter Tatchell, the leader of OutRage; Brett Lock its campaign coordinator; and Aaron Saeed, the organization's spokesperson on Muslim affairs, have been warned they will be murdered, Tatchell said Monday. In a statement Tatchell said that they have been told they are on a "hit list" and are going to be "beheaded" and "chopped up", in accordance with "Islamic law". The threats apparently began soon after OutRage stepped up its campaign in defense of LGBT Muslims, including gay Muslims fleeing attempted "honor killings" in Algeria, Iran Palestine and in the UK. Tatchell said that since early April, Islamic fundamentalists have made various attempts to track his movements - posing as journalists, police officers and representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain. He said that police have been made aware of the threats and are investigating. A spokesperson for the MET said it does not comment on any possible investigations. "If the terrorists want to attack the gay community, they may well attempt to detonate a bomb in a crowded gay bar, restaurant, club or community center," according to Lock. "We also urge extra security and special vigilance in gay areas like Canal Street and Old Compton Street, and at up-coming, publicly advertised gay events like Big Gay Out and Soho Pride.

The Guardian was one of the few if not the only mainstream paper that constantly gave the Sikh side of the story during the 1980's and early 90's. But in the last few years it has just become another leftie ragsheet totally out of touch with the views of the common man. The fact that they have a HuT guy as a trainee journalist doesn't surprise me. Most of it's content lately has been to blame everyone but the Muslim community for what has been happening under the name of Islam around the world. Guardian RIP

It's good to hear that we have broken through on some programmes. I didn't catch news 24 that day and from the posting it looks like Dabinderjeet Singh has done a very good job. Question time would be a good programme for a Sikh representative to take part in but as a panelist answering the issues of the day from a Sikh perspective. Due to recent events organisations such as the Muslim Council of Britain have pretty much hogged all the space and slots on Tv and radio. Has anyone seen GMTV's morning programme? That Inayat Bunglawala guy has become part of the furniture there lately.

I didn't get to contribute to the live programme but thanks to june84.org i got to listen to it Firstly Bhai Jagtar Singh was great! Unlike the many pardhans we get to see on TV who make you cringe when they open their mouths, Bhaji was both articulate and succinct. Although most of the callers were clearly nutters and maybe the BBC has a liking for nutters and gave them more time that they deserved, the short time that Bhaji spoke he put forward the Sikh point of view in a clear and unambigious way. 1. Sikhs had nothing to do with the bombing but will suffer the backlash 2. Muslim community is in denial and is seeking privileges and favours from the govt rather than putting it's house in order 3. Stop and search is fine if the police know who they should be stopping and searching. It's no good stopping a group of Ragis in a clapped out car just because they look foreign but letting some black convert to Islam walk past and blow up half the high street! Bhaji made the other speakers look pretty average even the labour droid who seemed to have been programmed by labour central office to repeat the line 'islam is a religion of peace' every few minutes. Hopefully the experience of many Muslim callers ringing to try and 'understand' the bombing will have knocked some sense into him. That naseem imam guy was a joker. Blabbing on about Nazi Germany and Stalin just because the Police raided a few Muslim houses and found explosives there. I was expecting him to blame the Jews for the bombing at anytime. One request to Bhaji, it is good that we have spokemen like you to appear on radio stations aimed at the 'asian' community but we really need people like you on the mainstream media such as Newsnight, Channel4 news, as well as TalkSport, LBC and Radio 5 live. This is the audience that needs to know who the Sikhs are and that Sikhs stand by Britain in it's hour of sorrow.

WJKK WJKF Yes a very nice article but the author should not have accepted quotes from the Koran at face value. A case in point is the above quote. This quote has been repeated ad nauseam on Tv for the last week. On the face of it the above quote seems to fill the demand that the UK media seek to fill that Islam is a religion of peace and doesn't advocate violence. The writer of the article as well as the many Muslims who have been trying somewhat unconvincingly to promote the 'peaceful' religion of Islam are just trying to fool the non-Muslims. The actual verse of the Koran is-; 5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, One can see that the 'islam means peace' brigade have missed out the crucial lines unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land as well as totally discarding the next verse. The verse is actually saying that Allah had prescribed the verse for the children of Israel.. ie the JEWS. this verse is in the Jewish literature of the times of Mohammed and he would have picked it up from the many jewish people he met during his days as a merchant. The second verse tells us what Allah supposedly wants as a punishment for those who wage war against him or make mischief in the land. It can easily be argued by the Jehadis that not following Islam and taking another religion is a form of making war on Allah. That not following Islam is making mischief in tha land. I commend whoever wrote the article but I ask that he/she be weary of repeating Muslim claims to being peaceful without investigating their claim further.

Found an interesting article here Britons will never give in to terrorists By Anthony King (Filed: 09/07/2005) The perpetrators of Thursday's atrocities are living in a fantasy world if they think the British people can be intimidated by terrorism, let alone converted to Islam. The findings of YouGov's survey show they are equally deluded if they think they can drive a wedge either between Britain and the United States or between most Britons and their Muslim fellow countrymen. The vast majority of YouGov's respondents are proud of London's emergency services and of the way ordinary Londoners responded to Thursday's bombings. They have no intention of changing the way they live and work merely to satisfy the desires of a few fanatics. Not surprisingly, people's willingness to see the authorities taking whatever steps are necessary to apprehend and, if need be, detain potential terrorists has risen sharply. More than 80 per cent believe the threat is so serious that the authorities should act against suspected terrorists even if they have not committed any offence. The survey also reveals increased support for identity cards. Compared with last week, support for ID cards has increased significantly, almost certainly as a result of the attacks. Even so, people by a wide margin remain unconvinced that the introduction of cards would help prevent terrorist acts. Although most Britons do reckon that the London bombings were the work of Islamic extremists, most show no disposition to point the finger of blame at British Muslims as a whole. On the contrary, well over 80 per cent are convinced that the great majority of British Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding citizens who condemn the bombings like everyone else. The response of Tony Blair and his ministers to the attacks has clearly boosted the standing of both. Early this year, twice as many people said they were dissatisfied with Mr Blair as Prime Minister as said the opposite. In the aftermath of Thursday's bombings, Mr Blair's approval rating has flipped from negative to positive for the first time in five years. Moreover, the bombings have failed - despite Mr George Galloway's best efforts - to undermine support for the British presence in Iraq. The proportion wanting British troops brought home quickly has fallen and the proportion who now want Britain to retain its close ties with the US has risen. The section of the chart headed "Assessing performance" tells a story of which Britons can be proud. A massive 95 per cent of YouGov's respondents believe that on Thursday London's emergency services responded either magnificently (71 per cent) or very well (24 per cent). More than two thirds, 71 per cent, give comparably high marks to the Prime Minister and his Government. Only Britain's intelligence services - for obvious reasons - fare less well. A third of YouGov's respondents, 33 per cent, accord their performance an equally high rating. As figures in the chart show, virtually the whole nation, 90 per cent, applauds Londoners' courage and calm under fire and Tony Blair's satisfaction rating has shot up from a mediocre 32 per cent at the beginning of this year to a creditable 49 per cent now. That said, people are far from sanguine about the future. Almost everyone, 92 per cent, reckons that another terrorist attack on a British target is now either "very likely" (45 per cent) or "fairly likely" (47 per cent). However, the proportion fearing that they themselves or a close family member or friend might be killed or injured in such an attack has not risen significantly. People have clearly thought for a long time that a terrorist attack was probable, but most people evidently have no intention of changing the way they live. A mere one per cent of YouGov's respondents expects to make big changes as a result of the bombings. The great majority, 88 per cent, expect to make few changes or none at all. The bombings have provided a modest boost to public support for identity cards. Support for ID cards has risen quite suddenly from 45 per cent a week ago to 50 per cent now. Even so, a substantial majority, 56 per cent, still doubt whether ID cards would help to prevent future outrages. YouGov's findings also suggest that the London bombings have tipped the balance of opinion still further in favour of according national security priority over at least some civil liberties. An even larger majority than in the past - now 81 per cent - think it is reasonable to take action against potential terrorists even if they have not yet committed a criminal offence. The figures in the section of the chart headed "Muslims and the bombings" show beyond doubt that a large majority of Britons make some connection between Thursday's attacks and some of the followers of Islam. Fully 82 per cent are apparently convinced already that Islamic extremists - whether foreign Muslims, British Muslims or some combination of the two - were behind the bombings and 60 per cent believe Britain's security services "should now focus their intelligence-gathering and terrorism-prevention efforts on Muslims in this country or seeking to enter it". In addition, the proportion believing that Islam itself - as distinct from fundamentalist Islamic groups - poses a threat to western liberal democracy has risen from 32 per cent shortly after the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Centre to 46 per cent now. YouGov yesterday elicited the opinions online of 1,854 adults across Britain. The figures have been weighted to conform to the demographic profile of British adults as a whole. YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council. Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University.

I dreamt I was alseep once :doh:

I don't think there's anything stopping a Bibi wearing a kachera in the Nihang style.

Kumi bruv Please Please Please can you start writing in proper English, it takes me ages to try and figure out what you mean. :doh: @

Wow. Fauja Singh does more to publicise the Sikh identity then all the presidents and committees of the 300 odd Gurdwaras in the UK :doh:

I know your problem I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure :doh:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh BahaPolska Bhainji Firstly please don't allow the apprehensiveness of some in the Sikh community to put you off your journey. The Sikhs that you ask about Amrit are probably just concerned that you do not take Amrit one day and then finding it difficult to keep the Rehat break the Amrit. Unfortunately we Sikhs do not have any organisations specifically to help people of non-Punjabi background to learn about Sikhism. The level of support depends of what the priorities of your local Gurdwara are. That being said you should not feel disheartened, I hope you will use this forum to ask any questions that you may have as well as use the internet to learn more about Sikhism. It is important to be able to read and understand Punjabi. But that should not be a barrier to taking Amrit. I know a few people who have taken Amrit and their first language is English and one whose mother tongue is Swedish. They use the bilingual Nitnem daily prayers book. The important thing is to understand the essence of the message and live according to it. Most Gurdwaras have Punjabi classes in the evenings or Weekends so it might be useful to enrol there and try to learn Punjabi. If you take Amrit before you have a good understanding of Punjabi it maybe an idea to ask if you can have someone with you who understands Punjabi and who can translate the Rehat as explained by the Punj Pyare. Amrit is open to all. The only distinction is that one must be ready both mentally, spiritually and physically. GurFateh Bikramjit PS Great to see WJKK WJKF in Polish as your signature :doh:

people need to wake up from their narrow minded world and smell the spirituality outside their box...if you haven't been to india or came across with sainthood in form of Sant Samagams, Sant Mandali(where all the saints from different dharam get together) then you should refrain from making accusations such as hindu's saints(holy men) not touching feet of other saints from different religion? GOD DARN IT.. WE ARE SIKHS NOT TALIBANS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100076[/snapback] Taliban..Fanatic..<Edited>..blah blah blah.. change the record man! I still await your proof for the accusations made against me Put up or shut up!

Akaal108 Wow quite a few accusations!! Since this thread is moved from being about Manmohan Singh to someone making accusations about the photo being fake I'm not surprised that you have made also joined in! 1. FYI I have no connection with whyichosesikhism website! I applaud whoever set up the website because in my view it is needed to counter all the anti-Sikh websites on the net. Some anti-Sikh websites even masquerading as Sikh sites One that lets someone post that Sikhi can me termed a sect of Islam :doh: @ 2. I have never written anywhere that only Sikhs will get to Sachkhand. If you have the time then you are free to check all my posts on Siknet, Sikhe, Sikh Sangat, Sikh-History.com, etc. I hope you can provide proof for your accusations, but then again making false accusations and calling anyone who doesn't agree with your sanatan version of Sikhi a fanatic is what this forum has come to expect from you To Mods I would be grateful if Akaal108 is asked to provide the proof of his accusations. If he cannot provide proof that I am the author of whyichosesikhi then I think that action should be taken against him, perhaps a ban would be in order. Maybe we could all do with a little relief from being called 'fanatics'

It's funny how the people who like to call anyone who tries to live their lives according to Gurmat and instantly denounced as Fanatics. I'm really not surprised at Akaal108, reading his views one would think that a Sikh can do anything and still remain a Sikh. The sakhi presented by him has no bearing on this issue. Sikhs did bow to the Gurus and this Narad Muni was bowing to the Guru. The most relevant Sakhi is the one about Guru Gobind Singh and how he tested the Khalsa by lowering an arrow in supposed reverence to the shrine of Dadu. The Khalsa remonstrated and fined the Guru for a breach of Rehat. The Guru was happy to pay the fine and praised the Khalsa for remaining true to the Rehat and passing the Guru's test. Had our friend Akaal108 been there he would no doubt have called the Khalsa as Fanatics and grumbled how this would not have in interfaith matters! To some people even Bhai Taru Singh would be Fanatic for giving his life for his Kesh. Tolerance and respect for other faiths does not mean that we need to do things that a against Sikhi. If a non-Sikh comes to a Gurdwara we do not insist that they bow to the Guru Granth Sahib, if they wish to then it is up to them. As for Manmohan Singh, the only thing that he has done and that only incidentally is that he is seen at most events such as the recent VE day ceremony in Moscow. Apart from that he is a failure. He has not released the nanavati commission report, imagine that a Sikh refusing to make public the report that will shed light on the murderers of his fellow Sikhs. But then Manmohan Singh is a politician, his aim to stay in power as long as possible and he knows that any attempt to give any concessions or even basic rights to Sikhs will see him ceremoniously dumped by his boss Sonia Gandhi. So in the end his saroop as a Sikh is just incidental and has no bearing on the way that he acts. If he was true to his saroop he would be more like Bhai Kaura Mal who during the Mughal rule was a governor and helped the Sikh jathas. Maybe we Sikhs as always are naive, there is no way that Sonia Gandhi would have allowed a Sikh to become prime minister without her telling him in no uncertain terms what is expected of him. Whether it's Badal or Manmohan Singh, Sikh politicians have more love for their kursi than they have love for the Guru.

'Jo Bole So Nihaal' producer, a worried man Monday May 23 2005 18:15 IST IANS MUMBAI: N.R. Pachisia is a perturbed man. The producer of controversial film "Jo Bole So Nihaal" can't understand what the fuss is all about. "Sure there were two blasts on Sunday night in two theatres in Delhi screening my film. But one of the multiplexes where the second explosion took place on Sunday evening was also screening 'Nazar' and 'Naina'. "Also, there was an explosion this morning on a railway track in Delhi. Was 'Jo Bole So Nihaal' responsible for that as well?" Pachisia ends sarcastically. "My film was cleared by the censor board twice. Forget the censors, 'Jo Bole..' was also cleared by the Akal Takht, which is for the Sikhs what the Vatican is for the Roman Catholics. "Now who gives these religious factions and so-called custodians of the Sikh religion the right to stop my film? A lady representing a Sikh organization has objections to my hero Sunny Deol drinking and having sex. According to her, Sikhs don't do such things. "Some Sikhs have also said that only a Sikh or a Hindu actor can play a Sikh. That means Shah Rukh and Salman cannot be cast as a Sikh. Can you imagine anyone holding such juvenile views in this day and age? What are we filmmakers going to make? If every film of ours needs clearance from the custodians of one section or community we'll end up making nothing soon." Pachisia declares: "They say the hero's name should be changed, and that certain sequences should be removed or re-shot. "Why should I, when the courts have said no one has any authority to prevent the film from being screened? My film has lost so much money already I can't afford to invest in changes. "My hero's name in Nihaal. The chant 'Jo Bole So Nihaal', which seem to have raised hackles, is a war cry for the Sikhs and not part of the holy book of the Sikhs, the Guru Granth, as is being claimed. "How do I explain these things to my distributors who are twisting my arm under the pretence of a panic? Let's face it - my film is a loser. "Let it be now. Let's move on and think of bigger issues instead of holding a flop film responsible for national calamities." Pachisia pauses for breath. "You know normally controversies add to ticket sales. In my case they're only hampering what's in any case a lost cause."

Totally agree with you. Contrary to what Smartsingh's muslim friends say about us here, I have yet to see anyone hating muslims here. Although it is well known that it has become the norm for muslims to counter any legitimate criticism of their acts with emotively charged wirds such as HATE. It is so easy to paint someone as a hater rather than counter their views. The funny thing is that those who complain about Sikhs 'hating' Muslims are infact duty bound to consider them to be second class citizens and to consider them as unclean.

I take offense to that. I have tons of muslim friends who treat me as an equal. Heck, some of them sometimes visit this site through my blog and they're always like "oh, your people hate muslims don't they?" and then we laugh it off, but it's still stupid. Don't blame the religion for the people that follow it and warp it. :doh: 99105[/snapback] The Sharia is based on the koran and hadiths. So in this case it is actually the teachings of the religion that are are fault and not the followers!!!

Kurtas weren't you defending someone referring to the two Singhs who were found NOT GUILTY of the air-india bombing as GUILTY soley because one of them had said after 1984 that 50,000 Hindus should be killed. That is enough for someone to think him guilty of bombing the plane but according to you Hindu who is actively selling missiles that can bring down aeroplanes is just a failed businessmen!!

This is so disgusting!! Isn't there anything we can do? Does anyone have contacts in Chandigarh with Sikh organisations or Gurdwara committees? Couldn't we and tapoban do something to help, if someone knows a reliable way to get some monetary aid to our brothers and sisters count me in.

Hearing about something doesn't mean it's TRUE! There is no doubt that Muslims try their best to propagate that women have equality and respect but in reality the opposite is the case. Non-Muslim women fare even worst in Islam. I came across this interesting Hadith which is classified as reliable by Sunni Muslims. FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection". Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, "No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."" The above describes the RAPE of non-Muslim women captured by Mohammed's followers to which Mohammed did not object.