Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa

Glad to have been of help Gursikh Bro. Chamkila Ji, the School is established and run by the Nanaksar trust, Babaji is the Chairman. The Sangat and the Trust work together to contribute in running the School successfully.

Sant Baba Amar Singh Ji, from Nanaksar.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Nanaksar doesn not discrimminate against women, the people that administer Amrit separately to women are completely wrong! This is not the Maryada and the people that do this are NOT true Nanaksariye. As for the Golak, the only reason it isn't encouraged was to avoid the Sewadars handling the money and becoming attached to Maya. Even the main GuruGhar who have Golaks have a special person in charge of taking care of the Sewa given by the Sangat. When Nanaksar was established it was purely a TAP Asthan and the donations were mostly food which was prepared for Guru Ji and the Sewadars. The Nanaksars abroad, which I am affiliated with have relaxed the rules, Bibian are allowed to do any type of Sewa and the Golak's are in place because they have to pay off loans and bills on the properties. I've explained about the Nishan Sahib, it was just not in place because of the political rows and discussions which entailed as a result and emphasis was purely on BHAGTI. Yet again, the Nanaksars abroad have Nishan Sahibs, they are NOT prohibited and Nanaksar does not believe Sikhs should not be united, quite the opposite. Baba Isher Singh Ji did not appoint a successor after him, and the Nanaksars abroad and the HQ in Jagroan are all run by the Sewadars at the time of Babaji, devoted to the same cause of Sikhi. These rumours about discrimmination against women, different Rehats and so on are completely baseless and wrong. My Dad has practically been born in Nanaksar and I have never been made to feel inferior. All of the Jatha's in the Panth are like flowers and together they make up a beatiful bouquet, and if kept close and together this beauty can only grow and bring us together. We have so many different aspects of Sikhi, Mahapurush, Bhagti, and the Saint/Soldier aspect, let's respect all of them. Forgive me for anything I have said wrong. Gurfateh

Sorry, I guess I was a little harsh there too. I just feel people should be more open minded, at least you can see that Baba Nand Singh Ji and Baba Isher Singh Ji devoted so much to Sikhi. No probs Bro, forgive me too.

Yeah I agree. You're entitled to your opinion, I've explained the reasons to the best of my ability. Why don't you stop giving me suggestions on how to respect my Kesh? I don't follow your suggestions. Do you even know me to make that comment? I don't wear a lock of hair around my neck, and I think your comment was very degrading for someone who doesn't even know me. Yeah, and let's hope it starts with Darbar Sahib letting women do Sewa and implementing the true teachings of equality of our Guru's. Well, to me a place which places the Guru Sahib at the highest level, and respects Guru Ji, believes in Bhagti, Sewa, Parchar and Kirtan of the Guru is a Gurudwara. Well, the Akal Takhat issued a Hukam for people not to sit on chairs and take shoes into the Langar area, some Gurughars (with Nishan Sahib) in the UK have ignored the Hukam, so I guess those aren't Gurudwara's either. This Saroop was made under the instruction of Babaji. When Babaji recieved Darshan of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they resembled this Saroop, so it was made. The star has been added by the artists who believe Guru Ji was the incarnation of Vaheguru. Nanaksar, as far as I know, believes that Guru Ji had merged with Vaheguru so there was no difference, however the star on the sole of the foot is probably misleading as it points to a Hindu way of representing Avtars.

My intention wasn't to say the Nishan Sahib is not important and should be discarded, but when it comes to the respect of Guru Ji, and the Maryada which believes that Guru Ji should be respected so highly, then I dont spend time worrying about why there is no Nishan Sahib here or wherever. In the UK, there are Guru Ghar with Nishan Sahibs were people have been stabbed in political rows over power and elections. Is this symbol respected by every Jatha? As for your comparison with the 5 Ks, this makes no sense at all to me. That's a different issue, the 5 K's are NOT symbols, each has a special reason which is practical, so the comparison you make is inaccurate. The Nishan Sahib is in a sense a symbol of the Sikhs, which is important, but as I mentioned, Babaji wasn't intending to make the main Nanaksar a Gurudwara, it was a Tap Asthan, Sangat came because they wanted to, and there was no restriction on them meeting Babaji. QUOTE Since the times of our Guru sahiban, countless Sikhs have fought and given up their lives under the Nishan Sahib and it as dear and reverent to us as a national flag is to the citizens of a country.Yes, I agree. As I mentioned in my above post, Baba Isher Singh Ji has done amazing Parchar for the Panth by initiating so many people in the Khalsa. So, I don't know what you mean by your comment. As for no Nanaksar Gurughar being burned down, if they aren't considered Gurughar's because of no Nishan Sahib, maybe they weren't included when people recorded how many were attacked. So, for a Gurughar to be authentic and valid, it has to have a history where it was attacked at least once? How do you know if the Sikhs killed in the riots were from Nanaksar or another Jatha? My Dad knows so many Sewadar who were killed in 1984, would you like names and proofs? Please try not to be so narrow minded and go there and experience Nanaksar yourself, if it isn't your thing then fine, but to label it as a NON-Sikh institution without reading it's history and going there is rash. Gurfateh Ps. Another point on Langar. Although there was no Langar Maryada in the Nanaksar during Babaji's lifetime. the Parshada for Guru Sahib is cooked there and it is to this very day.

It's fascinating to see so many people picking little points to criticise and missing the main objective, which is Parchar, Bhagti and utmost respect of Guru Ji. All of which are incomparable in the Nanaksar Maryada. Whoever said Nanaksar has done no parchar needs to read a little bit of history, Baba Isher Singh Ji encouraged and under their guidance, 7 Lakhs of people took Amrit during their lifetime, is this not Parchar? What of the Nanaksars abroad? The schools opened? Are these oblivious to you? Well, I have just put my reasons across as to why certain things are different in the Nanaksar Maryada, someone said something about the Golak, Langar etc. Well, the main Nanaksar was a TAP ASTHAN of Babaji. It wasn't intended to be a Gurudwara, Babaji said everyone is welcome here to do BHAGTI, not have political discussions or vichaar of anything except Gurbani, even that was limited as the emphasis was always on Bhagti. The Nanaksar maryada was inspired by the Nirmaley Sikh Guru Ji sent out to do Parchar, therefore there are similarities and disimilarities. I've tried my best to explain the little I know, there will be cynics in every 'Jatha' or individuals who miss the essential points, but that is your own Sharda, whether you see beyond things you read, hear about, or whether you go there your self, and experience the Naam da ras that Babaji spent their whole life devoted to, it will touch you even now, that's how strong it still is. Go to the Bhora Sahib, where INTENSE Bhagti was done by Babaji, and tell me you believe this is a SECT. I hope I haven't hurt anyone by my comments, but this is all I know, and I think it's important to expe rience something before passing comment. Gurfateh

Chamkila, you're getting caught up in mere symbols here. Is the Nishan Sahib more important to you than Guru Ji's respect? What's the difference whether it is there or not, the real symbol, the reality is Guru Ji, which is inside a Nanaksar Gurudwara or any other Gurudwara. About the Rehat issue, this is wrong and the original Marayada does not support this discrimmination, just as there are wrong aspects of the Maryada in other Jathey which have been corrupted by mindless people trying to destroy our unity. Gurfateh

Gurfateh The reason there is no Nishan Sahib has been posted by someone already. It was to avoid the political rows during that time, and the Asthan of Nanaksar is of peace and Bhagti. As for the Golak not being there, it is simply because during Baba Nand Singh Ji's time, the Rehat was very strict for the Sewadars, there was no attachment to Maya, and what the Sangat contributed in food was used, no money was allowed in the Gurughar as it interfered with the Bhagti. As for the different Rehat, I think this has been corrupted by certain people, Babaji never imposed a different Rehat for Bibian, there are no restrictions on them wearing a Sri Sahib, I wear the full Kakars and there is no problem there at all. Nanaksar has always maintained good ties with Akal Takhat and all the Jathedars, not to mention welcoming all the different types of Jathey in existence today in the Panth. It is not a sect, just as the AKJ is not a sect, it is a part of the Panth, and to say Nanaksar is a sect is very insulting. We should look at the level of Parchar and respect of Guru Ji which cannot be compared with anyone else. The fact that Bibian are not allowed to do Kirtan on stage is because during Babaji's time, there were very few that could do Kirtan, and also because the Nanaksar style Kirtan is such that a lot of Sewadars sit on stage, it wasn't considered appropriate, although now the Maryada is more relaxed because more Singhanees are doing Kirtan, I do Kirtan myself and I've had no problem s inging in any of the Thaths abroad. I am surprised people comment on this restriction when Bibian are not allowed to do ANY sewa at our most important asthan; Harminder Sahib, Darbar Sahib. No wonder there is this bad feeling going around. They should stop living in the dark ages and wake up! Gurfateh PS. The reason for the Tiger's hide is a complex one. The lion only has <admin-profanity filter activated> <admin-profanity filter activated> once in it's lifetime, and never again. It symbolises ultimate control of Kaam and this animal is associated with the Mahapurukhs who have control of this vice. It is thus used as a symbol. However, there is one Sakhi where a old Baba near the main Nanaksar told my Dad that he had done Darshan of Baba Nand Singh Ji, and a lion used to visit the place where Babaji had done Bhagti in the jungle and prostrate in front of that place. The lion did this until he breathed his last, just something I have heard.

Singh Ji, no, Nanaksar has never had political rows with any Jatha's and anything you may have heard is probably just rumours with no basis.

The Sewa done by Babaji for Guru Granth Sahib Ji was amazing. Once I remember my dad telling me that Babaji saw some Sikhs take Guru Ji out on a Nagar Kirtan, and they had no Chaur Sahib and no Ramala was on top for some reason. Babaji said to the Sewardar, go and call that man in charge of the procession. He came to Babaji and asked why he was called. Babaji said, what happens if someone throws dust into your eyes? Would you like that? He said no, it would hurt. Babaji said, well dust is flying onto Guru Ji and you are sitting there doing nothing. They took the Chaur Sahib themself and for endless hours did Sewa of Guru Ji. The Sewadars were instructed to bathe everytime they went to relieve themselves before going to Guru Ji's hazoori, this maryada continues today. I've seen some Langars where people enter with shoes on, and tables and chairs everywhere, it's really sad. The Nanaksar/Hazoor Sahib Maryada is amazing, utmost respect for Guru Ji Ps. The reason why the Sewadars were white was because Babaji was particulary fond of this colour. They said it was pure and had no 'milawat' no mixing of different colours, this completely pure. Also, it's a colour where the slightest stain shows.

Aside from the dodgy toilet issues (which are so important, don't get me wrong ) How long before they start imposing such bans in the UK? Like Khalsa Bro said, the Gorey are getting seriously threatened.

If we do get Khalistan, what about the main Gurughar? All of them are outside Punjab? and the Gurbani says the whole of this Earth belongs to the Saints and Sikhs of the Guru, Il try to find it, can't remember it right now. It's so unfair, I get mistaken for being Muslim sometimes, and this is Southall Gurfateh

Who can describe the devotion and Sewa of Baba Nand Singh Ji, Baba Isher Singh Ji also inspired 7 lakh people in his lifetime to take Amrit. The Nanaksar Sampardaya is rich with Sikhi and love for Guru Ji. This won't change because of some attempts to malign certain people, or because of the fake people who under the label of Nanaksar spread lies and dishonesty. However, the main Nanaksar is a beautiful experience, especially the Bhora Sahib where Babaji did intense Bhagti and was blessed with Guru Nanak Dev Ji's darshan. Every Puranmashi there is amazing Kirtan and the place is packed beyond belief. Also, Baba Ji's Kirtania, Sant Sujan Singh Ji was the best Kirtania the Panth has been blessed with. Dhan Guru Nanak Toohee Nirankar, Dhan Babaji! A good site to check out for valuable bachan and history of Nanaksar and Baba Ji is; http://www.babanandsinghsahib.org/main.htm BTW, the first Sikh school opened in England and granted government status in the western world, which is flourishing today was opened by the Nanaksar Samparda. Gurfateh

No offence Ji, but even if this is true, what can we do about it? Or knowing what his destiny is? It can change at any time with one glance from Vaheguru. It is not fixed, it is dependant on your grandfather's deeds in this and the previous lives. I don't think we should get so involved in whether or not it is true, Vaheguru can change a person's destiny with his one glance of love, so it is not permanent, and even if it is, we as mere mortals can do nothing but pray to Maharaj to bless your grandfathers Aatma.

My dad knows Kesar Singh Mand very well. Il tell him to speak to him about this. Makes me so angry @

The Omnipotence of God (II) by Reinarto Hadipriono • Tuesday June 17, 2003 at 12:47 AM Reinarto@Hadipriono.com 62 231 206980 Jl. Lemahwungkuk 37 Cirebon - Indonesia The fact that almost all religions believe that nothing, not even a single space or a single entity, is capable of restricting God’s existence is an obvious indication that sub-atomic particles are part of God. The Omnipotence of God (II) In order to prevent any possible misunderstanding on the part of the creationists concerning the explanations presented in the previous article, we are hereby re-issuing the article with further explanations added to it Almost everyone of us who believes in the presence of God must believe that God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent and that nothing can ever prevent His presence. But even though almost everyone of us does agree on this, a further study on the subject through the various sciences in combination with logics may lead us to one unique conclusion. Creationists all over the world say that all the contents of the universe are the creation of God. This implies that every single habit of nature or law of nature must have come from Him. Now, when man endeavors to make a study of all the contents of the universe, including their various habits, and documents all his findings systematically and m ould a variety of sciences from them, then any attempt to study these sciences must certainly mean an attempt to get to know His creation. Naturally misassumptions and misinterpretations do occur sometimes, but we never stop revising it. Regardless of whether what has been documented is compatible or not with what exists in reality, the very fact that we have tried to study the creation of our Creator is itself an indication of our attempt to know more about it, which further implies that we do appreciate all His creation. It is thus through our acquaintance with the contents of the universe that we hope to be able to know the Creator better. Let us view the presence of God from a different perspective through science. With the infinite nature of God, there are not any empty spaces and any matter in this Universe that can restrict the presence of God. He is present in anything and anywhere in this Universe. If God is the All Powerful and if nothing can ever prevent His presence, God must then be certainly present in every empty space in this universe. By implication, He is present even in the empty space between us; **He is present in the empty space inside objects; He is present in the empty space between the molecules of objects; and He is present in the empty space between atoms. Inside the atoms themselves, between the nuclei and the electrons that revolve around them, there must be innumerable empty spaces, which in no sense can ever prevent the presence of God. Sub atomic particles such as electrons, *neutrons, *protons, etc. can show their characteristics only if they are present in an empty space. And even there God is present. Verily then, as already implied earlier, absolutely nothing—not even atom parts—can restrict the presence of God. And absolutely nothing in this universe can ever exist in total isolation either, not even one percent of it, because such total isolation would certainly mean hindering the presence of God Thus it becomes obvious that whatever is existent in the universe, all t his must naturally exist completely within the very existence of God, within His power. ***In other words, all existence must absolutely be part of God. The fact that we are part of God, however, does not mean that we are God. Our hair is not our selves, is it? It is thus clear that the sub-atomic particles are also part of God. It is from these sub-atomic particles that the contents of the universe, including human beings, have evolved. All of us exist in The Absolute Unity, regardless of whether the universe is an independent entity with its own exclusive status, or whether it is a creation of God. All is but just parts of God that together form this universe. To ask questions about the shape of God would just be of no avail, because no one has the ability to imagine what He looks like. How can one imagine what God looks like when one in inside Him? Is it not true that our senses too have their limitations? However, by being aware that we are all made from the same basic material, and are together in one Absolute unity, we are certainly expected to be able to act wiser in coping with the various differences human being have. This, hopefully, will further lead us together towards worshipping the One and Only God. Realizing that the whole universe is but a blessing that God bestows upon the human kind, the creationists in general, therefore, acknowledges that it is quite natural if man should attempt to study, take advantage of, and preserve it. They believe that only through the study of the contents of the universe as “the fruits of the work of God” can man get to know Him better. We learn a lot about the personality of an artist by studying the results of his work, do we not? So, what is wrong with trying to get to know our Creator the same way? We human beings should feel very grateful, because despite the fact that we can perceive only a tiny part of the existence of God (within and around ourselves), we are still able to see, hear, feel, touch and smell it. And what’s more, after we die later, we shall be with God forever. Isn’t this what the law of mass and energy conservation is all about? Nothing ever increases in this universe, and nothing ever diminishes either from this universe. Because the universe, as we have already stated above, is but one part of God, it then goes without saying that its ability to be exist in “nothingness” can be attributed to the presence of an “Absolute Power” that is capable of preserving existence and blanketing the whole content of the universe. Perhaps, this is why God is also referred to by, among others, “The All Preserver.” There is indeed very little that we could conceive about God’s greatness, but then even this what little knowledge we have of Him is already a blessing of great magnitude for us. Given all this, man has indeed been wise enough as to be so cautious in his attempt to describe God, to the extent that none has virtually ever dare to draw the image of God, who none of us knows. This is plausible indeed, because whatever description man may make of God, it is highly likely that the God he describes will resemble a human being. Is it not a fact that, since ancient times, whenever man endeavours to draw pictures of those powerful illusory creatures, he is likely to make them look like not only man but also some other mighty, frightening animals? Thus, attempts to describe God in such a way will naturally imply that we are demoting God to the rank of those illusory creatures. Worse still, we shall be led to develop misconceptions of our God. --------- * To ease understanding we are still using the obsolete theory for sub-atomic articles. In the new thoery, Leptons and Quarks are said to be sub-atomic particles. ** “If He is present in everything,” the skeptics may perhaps wonder, “does this not mean that He must also be present in the “dirtiest” of things? Such a question is apt to give us the impression that God, as they perceive it, resembles the genie, which is often portrayed in fairy tales as being abl e to enter into a bottle or an object. It sounds like they are indirectly belittling the existence and status of God, because by launching such a question they are apparently implying that God is comparable to the genie. Terms such as “clean” and “dirty” are but mere subjective man-made assumptions. Do you realise that, when viewed under a microscope, even “faeces” show signs of life, so beautiful and so magnificent within them? Monocellulars, so many of them and so colorful, live there in togetherness. It is only because some of these creatures are engaged in a kind of chemical process, causing them to emit gases very much disliked by man, that we have looked upon faeces as something very disgusting. But who then is it that has brought this faecal life into existence and preserved it? ***Contrary to what some may think, the claim that sub-atomic particles are parts of God is definitely not an implication that the creationists have been mistaken about their assumptions. To the people of those days, the creations of God were just anything that they could see, hear, smell, feel, and taste. Have we not often heard people saying that it is God who creates the earth, the sky and the whole content of the universe, including men, animals, and plants? Thus, it is absolutely appropriate then to say that the whole content of the universe has originated from those parts of God today known as sub-atomic particles. This is perhaps what those creationists of both the past and the present have meant. Anyway, sub-atomic particles were, in those days, just unknown to man yet, were they? Should some insist that God creates not only the shapes but also the “basic material,” they must have the following logic in what they held: If God creates not only the shapes but also the “basic material” of this universe, there must then exist “two entities.” One is “the creator” and the other is “the creation.” As such, even though the creation is under the control of the Creator, it must still have its own power. And even if that p ower of the creation may be as little as one percent, this will still mean that one percent of the creation is beyond the control of the Creator, an implication that God’s power is being restricted by that one percent. To put it another way, the omnipotence of God is thus subject to some restriction. This simply does not make sense! Nothing can ever restrict the power of God. The whole content of the universe is absolutely under God’s rule. This being so, the whole content of the universe must absolutely be part of God. In other words, God has created all forms of existence in this universe from God’s parts. Or we human beings and the rest of the contents of the universe are created by God from God’s parts.

Which girls?

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! I don't spend my time collecting proof against people, Im there as a moderator to learn, I was under the impression that's why people visit forums. I didn't know it was to conceal people and test DNA samples. Your sarcasm still doesn't answer the question. His DNA cannot prove what you're saying, unless he leaves it lying around on keyboards you have access to. Yet you say you have access to his keyboard, you must be very close. I'm not really going to waste time commenting on your sarcastic remarks, I've never heard of this Kamalroop story, but it's an interesting addition to the ones being circulated at the moment. So I guess this means we only have your word as evidence. Gurfateh

Rupinder, do you have proof? Or does everyone have to rely on your word too

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Recently, during a rather fruitful discussion with a Muslim, the subject of 'Justice' came up in the conversation. I wanted to outline some points discussed which proved Islam is not as clear cut as Muslims have us believe. Me: If a child was infected with AIDS or cancer from birth, how is this justice by Allah when the child has not committed any sin? (Muslims believe each person's account opens at puberty (age 14ish) and before this he/she is not judged). Muslim: Allah is ALL-Just so his justice is absolute. The child is carrying the sins of the parents. Me: Why should a child carry the sins of his/her parent? Why aren't the parents punished? Muslim: The parents will be punished in the hereafter, which is what counts. The sensations in this world are no comparison to the sensations in Jannat. The child who suffers 'patiently' will be from one of the ones in Paradise without question or judgement if he/she dies before puberty. Me: This seems like a weird concept. What if the parents repent for their sins, will the child be miraculously not affected by the disease? Muslim: That is not definate. Me: What if the parents repent, and the child still endures suffering for 'their sins'? Muslim: Then, the parents will get more than what they deserve in Hell. They will have to answer for their sins in the hereafter, the child will be from one of the ones of Paradise. Me: Ok, let's take 2 situations. Child A who is infected with an incurable, suffering disease from birth and dies before pub erty, and Child B who has no disease, but also dies before puberty. Do both of these children go to Paradise? Muslim: Yes. Me: Then where is the justice? If both are destined for Jannat, why does one need to suffer? Wouldn't it be easier for the parents to be judged, rather than a transfer of sins? Muslim: Allah has placed nature in PERFECT BALANCE. Disruption of this balance causes suffering to those who intefere. Also, Allah is ALL-JUST therefore we do not question his justice. Me: You once questioned me about reincarnation. I answered, and I didn't brush it off by saying the Gurbani says Vaheguru is ALL-JUST so we cannot question anything. What you are doing is taking the easy way out. Muslim: You have to understand, this life is temporary, the eternal life is what counts. Me: Try telling that to a mother who's child has AIDS and sees it suffering day in day out, and try consoling the child undergoing the suffering. --------------------------------------To be Cont'd...----------------------------------- I suddenly feel a lot better B) Gurfateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Jagjit and BikramJit Ji, You know I respect your views because compared to you I have absolutely no knowledge in Sikhi, so please don't feel I am attacking you personally. I just believe we should be strong enough to counter these people without resorting to personal insults and avoiding them. Umm, now I'm speechless, apologies for to Mr Singh Bro for messing up his thread, ok I'm outta here Gurfateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! It's ok for people to whine about which people get to speak freely at other forums, but here no one bans them either. So what's with the self-righteousness? If the majority of the Sangat here does not approve a certain member's hate and Jatha bashing, then why is no one banning them? Is it because you also believe in freedom of speech? Do you also believe that no matter how much a person spreads anti-Sikh comments, we are not scared of them and will respond equally? If so, then why the forum-bashing?. Some people need a reality check. Jagjit Ji, you have mentioned more than once that you do NOT visit Sikhawareness anymore, I think you are still haunted by it because you mention it in every other post on here. Gurfateh

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Any way of contacting him personally? I would like to arrange for a Kirtan at the school I teach in, for the kids, should be great Fateh

Hayes, NOT Southall, not that there's anything wrong with Southall B) (Yeah right!)