AK-47

One singh was doing katha in english to us once, and he wastelling us how time didnt exist for vaheguru and for his saints. In the sense that even if the bani is being repeated with their mouths at 50mph in their minds each and every akhar is tasted and comprehended!! He told us of a singh at Taksal who does a Sehejh Path every TWO days!!!! Bhai sahib said that when the singh speaks you can barely hear his voice as he has being doing this path from years and years and his voice is almost gone! but if you listen carefully, despite reading the bani at speed it is still done shudh and each akhar is pronuciated correctly! Some singh asked him why do you need to read sehaj path so many times? he said i read it over and over just in case i miss something, i dont ever want to miss anything that my Guru says! When i heard that it blew my mind!!

Its a bit late now, so i'll copy up and type sant jarnail singh ji's comments to do with radhaswami's and other groups later as soon as i can. But basicaly sant ji said, that we need the sangat of the Guru's Sikhs, please NOTE GURU'S SIKHS. These are sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, not of any deh-tari guru or leader. When sant ji would ask the sangat for promises, for commitment for certain tasks, he would ask the sangat to raise their hands and shout the jakara. But he would say that only those true sikhs of the guru should raise their hands, he said those sikhs of the pipal tree, of the radhaswamis, of the narakdhari's etc etc shouldnt bother. Personally i think that if you cant commit to Guru Granth Sahib ji and from that to the khalsa panth, then can i rely on these people? Ultimately Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if someone who calls themselves a Sikh of Guru Nanak rejects the hukam of the 10th Nanak then that bothers me. For a hindu or a muslim to believe in their own guru's or leaders is different but for a 'sikh' to dismiss the completeness and the satguru status of Guru Ji is a different thing. If there is any other true guru out there... let him go to the troubled parts of the world and sacrifice himself for the peoples of that area, lets see if he can sit on the red hot plate and be tortured like our guru's did!! lets see if he can teach an uneducated illiterate peasant boy the meanings of the gits by tapping him on his head! or lets make it easier, lets see which of these human guru's has created such a disciple who can be beheaded and still fight on during the heat of battle! If there is such a Guru then introuduce me to him, if not then we need to bow our heads to the guru who has, who can and who will! Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!

Right then the guy who was meant to do the write up has been busy so im gonna have a try at trying to remember exactly what was said! Ok started off at a gurdwara sahib where the youth gets together every wednesday evening for sikhi discussons. the gurdwara committee and other important personalities who like having their picture taken accompanied Mr Vedanti into the hall where around 80 teenagers both boys and girls, where the majority speak little if any punjabi, and around 80% dont keep their kesh but attend weekly to find out more on sikhi. Upon his entrance the old committee boys did a jakara and everyone turned around thinking 'what!?'. Around 20 -25 guys accompanied him in, you can imagine the sort! and they all sat down together for a few promotional pictures with the sikh youth.. you know the old kiss kiss kiss pictures! Mr Vedanti got up and did a 5 min speech on various sikh issues, nothing extraordinary, in punjabi. then he sat down. The youth (having been given leaked info that he was coming down) were determined to have a questions and answers session wth him and although they had prev promised, the sight of around 10 singhs sitting at the back with a mike in their hands round dastaaran, and anticipating smiles on their faces must have un-nerved them! if not that the committee guys know what the guys were like so they were nervous as it was! Finally he agreed to get up, and the questions and answers were as followed! Q1; A trim singh asked, Bhai Sahib, as you can see this is the way we are trying to do sikhi parchar in this country, what kind of sikhi parchar is happening in Punjab, as when we go over ther e, there seems little done and a lot of kids seem to be leaving sikhi? Answer by Mr Vedanti "First sort out your own sikhi, then worry about the rest". the answer cheesed many people off, as it had been a genuine question, and rather than answer it, he had just made a personal attack at the guy cus he trimmed his beard! This guy by the way does a hell of a lot more seva than most of us and is on the path! Q2; Bhai sahib, when the committee is selected here, they have to stand in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and swear an oath, which includes that they will fight with any physical, mental or wealth means for the freedom of khalistan (ha ha yeh right!), and also the sarbat khalsa in 1986 from the akal takhat decided to free khalistan, so what is the present akal takhat doing about this? Also what is being done to help the families of the shaheeds? Answer; "yes we should have our own home, it would be nice etc etc, but first we need to become proper khalsa's. before that it is a waste of time discussing issues like this, if you have any proper questions to ask then ask them or leave it". he got so angry at these questions and was proper grumbling and being a right arse! Everyone got even further annoyed since he refused to answer any of the points! Q3, one boy told of how his family went to punjab and taught kids how to play dhadhi and sarangi and had created 5 dhahdi jathe, he again asked what akal takhat was doing in similar terms? Answer, we do loads, we have colleges for that kind of thing" when the boy said where? i have never heard of them? the jathedhar turns around and goes, well where are the 5 that you created, i ahvent heard of them either! He then got into a one on one debate with this 20 yr old kid, saying that he should be responsible for the sikhi of his own family and that he (the jathdhar) wasnt responsible for them! he said since theyre your mama chacha etc's kids, why dont you teach them sikhi?! Reply to this was, "well if these kids are ours, then what about those who have nobody because theyre whole families where wiped out in the 80's? Do they mean nothing to you either? do we have to look after them by ourselves also? The mike was taken off the kids and a uncle told the youth off for being rude, (despite the fact that it was Mr Vedanti who lost his temper first), the organiser of the youth group informed the elders that we were not asking questions to be rude but because we are hurt about what is going on, as youngsters we deserve to be heard, and as elders it is their duty to answer the questions, not to get angry and make personal attacks and avoid the topics! (Jakara By the youth!) By this stage things had badly gone down hill, and rather than answering any questions, there were just personal remarks flying about, every question was answered with, "why dont you come with me and i'll show you what we do", when asked for deatils about how much money was sent to shaheed parivar, the above was said, when mentioned how much money going into parchar above line was mentioned! One singh told Mr Vedant i that the akal takhat had sent only 16,000 rps a month to the gurasra trust which looks after around 100 kids from shaheed parivars, he asked is this all they are worth?! No reply given. Basically no questions where answered, the guys PA took the mike and started talking for him, Mr Vedanti is not even a good politican, since he wasnt even able to face questions from a bunch of 20 yr olds! The PA told us that the akal Takhat had little to do with any of our questions and that we should refer them to the SGPC!! Then he said that even then, the SGPC was responsible for the maintaince of the Gurdwara's and not for anything else such as shaheed parivar! (question asked well who is, if not akal takhat or sgpc, question drowned out by complaints by speakers) At this stage the main committee guy who for the last 20 mins had been telling us all that we had no respect for our jathedhar and that if were in the army we would be scared of our general etc etc that we didnt know how to debate etc etc. He said that he was sorry that only 4 or 5 people had ruined the prog, which is where one of the guilty got up and asked the rest of the people present to raise their hands into the air if they also felt pain in their hearts that nothing was being done for the families of those that gave their lives for sikhi, to show that it wasnt just 4 or 5. Can you belive that every single youth in that room, girls boys kesh, skin heads, druggies etc all lifted their hands and one of the loudest and most spontaneous jakareh i have heard in a long time was shouted. That bought the debate to an end, as they could see the true feelings of the sikh youth, and since they were not ready to answer the questions they all left, not before a closing comment from Mr Vedanti, which again involved a personal dig and a sustained EVIL look in the direction from which the questioning was coming! Exit Elders and the jathedhar of the khalsa panth, not being able to withstand questiong from kids. Afterwards many felt really bad, not because of the questioing but because of the fact that they had been able to question the akal takhat jathedhar like that and get away with it?! these guys were nothing special, but if they got no replies what hope have we that these guys can debate against the politicians in India?! All it showed was just how much of a pawn the jathedhar is these days, its the SGPC that runs the show. Kinda felt sorry for the guy! Is it his fault? or does he have his hands tied behind his back!? SAD SAD SAD (Bring back the likes of Akali Phoola Singh, Baba Manochal, Gurdev singh Kaunke(oh by the way he was also asked what investigation was happening into the dissapearnce of former jathedhar G S Kaunke.... no reply)) I want a jathedhar who if i ask a stupid quesion too, can either answer it, or come and give me a slap for being so stupid& #33; Anyway sorry for the long email, im sure somebody will write a better one soon, some people have told the guys off, saying that they were too forward etc, but at the end of the day, they said what their hearts were feeling. Right or wrong, let Vaheguru decide.

We cant afford to trust any of these people! The only things the sikhs are good for is providing soldiers for the kashmir and pakistan borders! Keep them sweet keep them dying! These peoples games result in people lives being lost! It seems everyone can get a saropa these days! What do they think shes gonna do with it?! They have no shame!!! OH MAN i swear one day retribution will be sweet on these guys who disgracing us in this way!

I think we should all be wary of politicians and their games. Building monuments for the Guru's and aplogies etc all of this may just be clever tactics to bring the sikhs back on side. A lot of sikhs still distrust the congress party, and they are fed up with the akali's, so the sikh votes are up for grabs. By appearing sympathetic to the sikh troubles many will feel that sonia will do the best for them since she is understanding etc. BUT dont forget that her entire life was rocked by the sikhs, they/we killed her mother in law, caused her husband the createst amount of stress, and near enough bought her adopted country to its collapse. These are not easy wounds for her to forget, so lets not just assume that she cares. Politicians would sell their own mother as the saying goes, so doing this as a publicity stunt may be no big deal to them! Knowing our stupid politicians they will accept the apology and then make out that they have achieved this great victory for the sikhs by getting the govt to admit its fault! in this way the govt washed its hands and badal and co gain votes and prestige. An apology will not suffice any longer, what of all the families who have suffered how will they benifit from a politicians sorry?! They had 20 years of hell, personally i would tell her to shove the apology up her italian backside! If she wants to apologise, tell her to take her forces and her beauracracy and all the rest of her dirty political friends in the BJP and other indian parties out of our Punjab, out of our Haryana, our chandigarh, in fact all of our pre 47 punjab territory! (as for the pak side, we'll deal with tat another day) since im in a good mood, i think i'll claim dehli and some otrher areas too!

Sorry for taking so long to post this, its rubbish anyway, but i know this is a stupid question, but how do i post the article without copy and pasting the whole thing in this box? can i attach it somehow?

very true, when these guys are out on their political campaigns, they actually have vans following their cars filled with bottles of alcohol and actually give it out FREE to people, as a bribe for them to vote for them!!! Seen this with my own eyes, so dont expect any help off them!

Had the pleasure of being present and participating in what started as a gurdwara committee backside kissing session and turned into a full scale youth revolt agianst the old timers! At least Mr Vedanti now knows how some of us guys feel! Anyway a mate is writing up a report of what happened, the questions asked, the questions avoided and the answers not given.... yeh you can guess how it went! Wonder if you can get kicked out of the panth for arguing with your jathedhar!?!? These pawns are an embarassement, especially when a bunch of youths aged 16 to about 22 can put the main guy on the spot, they aint even good enough politicians that they can actually bulls*** themselves out of a situation!! Dear o dear!

I do not mean to cause any trouble by this question but just thought it needed to be discussed. As we have seen there is another gatka tournament comiong up, i think that brilliant, the more the better. What i wanted to ask is concerning what happned at one such event before. where some twits who call themselves nihangs turned up and started challenging people and carrying a camera about to record themselves. This according to them is 'khalsa tradition' as they are trying to improve their khalsa warrior fighting skills!! BUT if anybody else challenges any of them then its 'ego' ?! Firstly whats the view on that? Are not all challenges slightly if not completely based on ego? Even if your trying to improve ur skills, can u do that without ego? i dont think you can! Secondly how can you claim to be a khalsa or a warrior of anything and be afraid of a little clash? I dont really care too much about ancient warrior traditions, cus im sure most fights dont work on traditions of old, but if you've never actually had a fight can you claim to be a warrior? either street or competitively? maybe its just me but wouldnt it be a bit shameful for a warrior to turn down a challenge from an equally skilled opponent?

As far as i have been told, this Saroop was written in the 1920's, on order of the SGPC when they were created and came to power over the gurdwara's. This is what i have heard so may well be incorrect, please correct me if im wrong. Also bhaji please dont use the word 'PAGES' this is very disrespectful to Guru Ji, whenever we refer to Guru Ji use ANG and not pages which implies a book. It seems preservation of history is something we as a panth dont believe in, rather than preserve the historical buildings we just cover them up with marble and gold. Mosques and temples and churches from hundreds of yrs still stand today, but our Guru Ghar's are just covered up with modern materials. When you mutha tekh at harimandir sahib and are walking out through the gate (is it called darshan deori or am i confused with some other name!?) you will see that the top of it is white and gold, yet at the botom there are intricate patterns of red and gold which seems to be either decaying off or the overlayers seem to have come off. Either way there seems to be a lot thats just been covered over with white paint. In 2003 i went to Harimandir Sahib when i first arrived and the usual buuilding work was going on. When i went back two weeks later, there were two guys wearing little hankies on their heads knocking down the bases of the two main nishan sahibs!! When id last looked there didnt appear to be anythign wrong with them! so why do that? i just came back and they normal again now, but you have to wonder at all the repairs and buildings whether there was something wrong with them or not! Anyway just me going on as usual!

Akal Takhat Jathedhar Mr Vedanti was today at soho road gurdwara, birmingham. He gave a talk on how and why the akal takhat was created and the need for bhagti and shakti... But alas when he mentioned the major events that we all need to give special focus to this year, they were the 500th anniversary of Guru Angad Dev Ji's birthday, 400th aniv of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's pelha parkash, and the 300 aniv of the Sahibzadeh's shaheedi. But strangly enough the guy who is meant to be the jathedhar of the akal takhat forgot to mention, that the very same akal takhat was destroyed by military action 20 years ago as well, ha also forgot to mention the thousands of sikhs murdered in november! This guy meant to represent our panth yet the clown cant even openly talk about issues as above. It made me sick, that this guy could just stand there and not even mention it! He was holding a 3ft kirpan in his hands, i wonder what thats for, since he seems like he doesnt give a damn for justice for the sikhs and the usage of it! Wanted to question him, but were told we would not have the chance as he didnt want to be asked any questions... but dont worry we shall have him on the hot spot soon! Lets see what he says when hes asked' what is he and the akal thakat doing for the freedom of khalistan as advocated by the sarbat khalsa in 1986 from the akal thakat'. But still!!!!!!! @ Sorry for being a bit angry... but the worst thing is whatever we say, wher ever we say it, WERE the ones who are gonna be called extremists, trouble makers, terrorists etc!!! LOL its old news to these ears now but still! It cheeses you off, esp when so called gursikhs with 24/7 simran accuse you of doing nothing for the panth and just causing trouble!! lol.. itching fists man!!!! anyway i think he's in the uk for a few weeks, if you get the chance try and get him to see where we are coming from!

Was just going through some of these topics and came across someone's ID. He had the picture of one of the greatest Gursikhs next to his ID, and yet in his arguments often argues against what this Individual believed and preached. Not only going against the teachings of the gursikh but actually clamping down on those that tried to repeat what the gursikh had said! This isnt meant to be a personal attack, hence i havent mentioned a name, but this kind of thing really cheeses me off!!! On one hand people refer to others as Gursikhs, Sants etc, but then they contradict what they taught!?/! How can you believe in someone as a Sant but then argue against one of their main points of parchar!? Have you noticed how all these groups start to use faces of shaheed singhs when they need to pull in youth, but otherwise they will call them terrorists and fanatics!!! Again not mentioing any names, but the same people who support idiots who refer to kharkoo singhs as 'vegetarian fanatics' are now producing lierature and talking about their great sacrifices!! Its so sad that people feel like they can just jump onto the kharkoo ship whenever they feel like it and try to punch holes in the botttom the rest of the time!

Tohra needs cooperation with the back of my hand! What has the chicken s*** forgotten about 84 and all the suffering and destruction?!? Typical politicians kissing the backside of the govt too afraid to speak the truth! And you know what... so many people will say wow he's such a good guy for trying to organise so much! the padh, this organising should be done years in advance, did they only just realise that all these events were gonna happen this year!? I swear SOOOO many people have had a go and my friends and I for trying to organise events to comemorate 84, they say your being too single minded and not thinking about the rest etc etc... but here is the proof, the 'rest' will be covered buy the gurdwara's and the committees because they are 'safe' issues, nobody high up wil touch 84 cus their fingers might get burnt! Bunch of **

Bhenji, believe me there are people maybe not sanjay dutt but other indivuals who are clever with their mouths but not so sharp on their toes! lol When i mention the jews and muslims, take a look at the media, and see if you can the last time somebody openly joked about jews or muslims?! I mean on an open public stage in front of the whiole nations media! it would be suicide for their career! Same for black people, just take a look at the media again, look how carefully they word everything! just in case they say something to upset the black community! 'Sikhs are dumb' is a common joke, but the same joke is also often used against black people, can you imagine Brad Pitt joking about 2 black guys who couldnt play chess?!!? not a chance! I agree belive im totally against the caste system as well, i hate it. However when most people think of sikhs in india they think farmers. Very few sikhs in india have jobs in industry or factories, while some do drive trucks! these are common stereotypes which we grow up with. There are plenty of highly educated sikhs in punjab and india, (esp when it comes to chess it seems!) but where are the jobs for them? most will just return to farming even after having studied! There are many theories as well explaining why sikhs have become such an alcoholic consuming people, some political others social. The fact that like you said punjabi songs only seem to sing about girls drinking and fighting is just furthering the stereotype. Which is negative to sikhi. The following you may or may not agree with, and sorry to sound rude but if anybody is offended by this, pls i dont really care! This is why the singer 'Chamkilla' and Mr Golden Star Malkit Singh where targetted by the Kharkoo Singhs in the 80's (after numerous warning i must add). Chamkilla was shot dead for his rude songs and Malkit escaped on 2 occasions and finally fled to England! Maybe you think that is extreme, but those were extreme days! Look at what we show goreh when we invite them to a 'sikh' wedding, we tell them nothing about the lavaan, but we tell them that we have a massive party after with free alcohol!! then we wonder when they get confused about wether or not we can drink alcohol. We need to challenge these stereotypes both internally and externally, at one kids gurmat camp some kid was wearing a 'puth jattan de' tshirt, funnily enough he was in a group that a talk on caste! lol the kid asked permission to go home and change his tshirt cus all the other kids were laughing at his castist tshirt! To be honest this is just the tip of the iceberg of the kinda crap we get thrown at us that we just let slip! I found an old NHSF (national hindu students forum) magazine today, i'll post up some of the stuff from there another day and we can discuss that, its even endorsed by the navy, natwest bank etc! But this is funny, seriously can u imagine that wicked chess player whippng his <admin-profanity filter activated> at chess, then giving him a proper whack with his chappal! lol put that on your front page! lol

naam jap, i think your missing the point brother, its exactly the tiles im talking about. (unless your talking about the actual harimandir sahib itself) im on about all the rest of the tiles around the rest of the complex. Next time you go, have a look, none of the tiles/blocks i saw had any sign of bullet holes, which is not suprising as all the evidence as been taken away or covered up. Its these hence i assume new tiles which have different peoples names on them! WHY have peoples names on tiles in our most revered darbar sahib complex? In history to come, people such as myslef will read the inscriptions and wonder what great people they must be for having their names etched in the walls!?!?! But read further and their greatness was bought at 1000 ruppees!! How is that diferent from donating 1000 rps yourself and then scratching on the parikarma 'I WAZ ERE 2004 AND I GAVE 1000 RPS AK-47' ???

Well one would hope that the generals and leaders of the khalsa fauj would be guys with some serious skills in the battlefield but also with SOME SERIOUS bhagti too! in that case they shouldnt eneter a non-ethical battle, also correct me if im wrong, but the older armies used to meet at harimandir sahib/akal takhat and have a sarbat khalsa meeting, and then take hukumnama before taking any sort of planned action. Maybe thats idealistic, but there you go! I also think that the sikhs should have to do a minimum number of years of military service, training and actively protecting the gurdwara's around the world. At least it would stop us from getting lazy, i suppose that however can only happen once we get our freedom.

its true that many of us will either make jokes or laugh at jokes at the expense of others, which is wrong agreed. However, IF you are standing on a podium and you make the same joke, unfortunetly that does make it different to a joke between a few friends. Obviously to Vaheguru its is the same wether we say it in front of thouands or just two or three, but the consequences here and now are different. We know for a fact that sikhs have been 'dumbed' down in india, as part of an attempt to make us look like trigger happy jatts who just drink, fight and drink! These jokes have been doing the rounds for a while, cant say wether or not he was makig a political comment or not, but as somebody in the country's limelite, the man needs to be careful with what he says. Look at the Muslims and the Jews as an example of how to counter insults made in the public forum. Even the slightest abuse aimed at them starts of campaigns etc, not only do they get their problem dealt with but at the same time they raise awareness of other issues by using the media. Obviously theres a limit to how much you can abuse this technique! Lol by the way rochak i agree with you about the shitar! sometimes we spend too much time talking and debating especially with fools, the good old fashioned 'mans' way of sorting out a problem needs to be used every now and then! lol B) Let both have faith in their argument and in Vaheguru, have a good old scrap, and let the winner be the correct one! lol that would stop h alf the arguments were having! lol

exaclty what i was thinking, but does anybody know when this started happening at darbar sahib? was it after the attack, since most if not all the panels or blocks seem to be undamaged as they would have been following the gun fight? is this since 84 then?

Just wanted to add something to the concept of testing yourself for sikhi (sorry for being off topic) I believe it was Bhai Gurdas Ji who wrote something along the lines of "if the guru asks something of his sikh, how can the sikh ever fail" Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji having read this set a challenge for bhai sahib to do, i think it was to go and purchase horses from a dealer in a local town. when bhai sahib went and agreed to buy the horses he went to give the correct coinage and had found that it had turned into coal (?) as he would have been so greatly embarassed having just spent hours haggling over horses and then not ahving the money to pay for them he hid in a ditch for a period of time and then as he was so ashamed that he had failed the guru he never returned to Guru Ji. After a while Guru Ji sent someone out to go and find him and bring him back, when he returned he fell at Guru Ji's feet and begged for forgivness. He at once changed what he had written to "if the guru asks something of his sikh, only with the guru's blessing is such a task possible". We are not people to test our sikhi, we will always fail, we only win if Guru Ji wishes us too. Without Guru's sahara we wouldnt even be able to walk down the street, giving our heads is a distance thing! All we can do is do ardaas that one day Maharajh might allow us to partake in some kind of seva. But i know what your saying bro, seems like many of us fall into this 'buzz' thing and take amrit only to later discover that it wasnt the right time etc etc, but then again if amrit is in your karam then when you take it is when you were meant to take it! I dont think just anybody can ge t up and take amrit, even those people that later commit krehata still had something there in that instance! From what i hear from certain people is that this view that its ok to pluck trim and wax and whatever else they do is acceptable in many parts of the UK. I remember this one sister was getting a 'little' bit angry because she said she was sick of girls wearing dastaars with perfect eyebrows and whatever else there is! Im not sure what exactly perfect eyebrows are for girls, but i think id go flip crazy if i saw a girl with a dastaar or with a kirpan sitting in the window of a barbers! (same applies for singhs with kirpans!)!

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh Have you ever noticed how when you go to certain Gurdwara's when the ardaas is being read, the names of individuals who have donated £1.25 (savah pound) or other mulitples are read out loud in front of the whole sangat!? Often this can take anything upto 5 minutes, usually by the time it is finished, the kids are running around the darbar with their mothers behind them, people are rocking around on their heels for most of us our attention has left the ardaas and is somewhere else! Is this a common occurance at most of the Gurdwara's that the sangat here goes to as well? also where did the whole giving exactly £1.25 thing come from!? why not just £1.00?! Also something which has confused me greatly is about Hari Mandir Sahib. The issue is of the inscriptions in virtually all the building blocks around the parikarma, if you look they have something similar to this .......... "this block has been placed by the family of Mr ... Singh, who died on ...... whose family have donated 1000 ruppees". or "this block was donated by the indian 5th regiment of the royal blah blah blah tank brigade" etc etc Iv always been confused as to how people can donate a few hundred ruppees and have their name inscribed for eternity on the walls along the parikarma!!!! its on the walls, the floors, the ceiling fans, on literally everything that a name can be written on! Why has this happened? When did it start? Are they still doing it?! (ps saw a similar thing at the new southall gurdwara, where bronze plaques of people who had donated money to the building were placed along the walls leading up to the darbar sahib!) Whats going on!?

Rochal Malang, i got to ask you this, have you ever used this same ID on any other forums?! Its just that i remember having many 'heated' debates with someone with the same ID on the boss forum.... Except that now you seem to be arguing exactly what i was trying to explain to this other 'rochak malang'! If your a diff one then sorry! but just had to ask! :T: B)

War is the tool of the west and the 'civilised', terrorism is that of the poor. Terrorism is generally seen as any kind of action taken against the govt. The great american civil war, was a terrorist campaign. They fought against the govt ie the british. The french revolution was a terrorist campaign. They killed all of the leaders and overthrew the govt/royalty. If a singh kills a murdering rapist policeofficer, then he is a terrorist, yet the judge can send a rapist to the gallows, both deliver justice, except one has the approval of 'law' which is created by man, while the other has 'law' as given to him by his men, his god or his beliefs. The americans can try to assinated saddam hussein and are 'fighting against the axis of evil' but if the sikhs kill indira gandu then they are terrorists! Do you see the hypocrisy! Im not supporting terrorism whatever it may be, but the language of today is such that anything we dont agree with we can label as terrorist and get away with! I have recently written an essay on this, i will post it up shortly if you care to read it, its on 'religious nationalism' which is often called terrorism and the degree of violenc it produces.

I was discussing this topic with some friends today and the general view seems to be that suicide is wrong. which is something i also believe. but im just struggling to understand what must be going through the mind of a person who has experienced such an ordeal. What is their biggest fear? Is it the fear of walking around in the future, scared that it might happen again, or fear that people might find out? Why is it that so many women find it difficult to tell either the authorities or their families? As sikhs are we confident that if a sikh lady or even make went through such an experience, we would be able to deal with it correctly? Would we see the woman as 'dirty' or a victim? Does thinking of them as a victim help them, or does it help us to cope with the situation? Would we as sikhs be able to see our mothers, sisters daughters or wife in the same light ever again?! I think its a bit easy to say that people should have faith in Vaheguru, dnt forget that after such an incident the person may well blame god, or at the least may question why such a thing had to happen to them. I love the stance that Sant Jarnail Singh Ji took, that it is the perpatrators of the crime that need to be hunted down, that these women are OUR sisters, not just the sisters of the household that they belong to. Another example to remember is of the singhs during the time of the afghan invaders, i cant remember the yr, but the story of how the singhs rescued thousands of hindu girls and returned them to their parents homes, and told the men there that these girls were their (the singh's) sisters and that if they found out that they had been treated badly then they the singhs w ould come back to sort out the parents. obviously this was done becuase of family 'honour' the girls were most likely sexually assulted, and the common practice would have been to disown the girl. the singhs stopped it. But today how many of us would welcome our sisters home without any difference in our hearts? would we worry more for her, or more of what people were going to say if they found out? Also sorry to sound negative, but was at a talk on sikh women once at uni. The speaker told us some very hurting and painful stories from the 1984 delhi massacres. she spoke of a number of stories where sikh women were hunted down and raped by gangs of 10 -20 men, this after they had been forced to watch their husbands burn and their children murdered. One lady was chased and attacked by around 10 men, she said she couldnt remember how long the incident took place, all she could remember was their voices shouting and swearing, telling her that they were going to breed a new hindu race. Anumber of years later, some people aranged for a gynocologist to visit some of the victims of the massacres, and this woman volunterred to be examined. When the doctor was examining her she was told about what had happened to this old woman lying on her table. The doctor couldnt take it and started crying and stopped the tests, the old woman took hold of her hand and told her to continue with her tests, she said what had happened to her was the will of god, and that the world needed to know what had happened to us, therefore she must carry on with her work. This was just one of the many stories. Some of the women did kill themselves, rather than be raped by gangs. There wasnt a dry eye or a heart that didnt want these mobsters in front of them to take revenge upon. But then one individual got up and asked if these women were amritdhari's, the speaker replied that yes some of them were. then this person went on to say that "well if it had been me, iv learned martial arts and i would have used m y kirpan and wouldnt have let them touch me, they were wrong for trying to run away and should have stopped and fought". i swear this singh in the room nearly killed this individual!!! its very nice for us to say that we should do this or that, but after seeing so much, very few of us would have our basic wits with us. imagine your entire life ending before your life, your husband burned with kerosene with a tyre put around his body by your neighbours, your children's hair cut then beaten to death with iron poles, your house set on fire. Brothers, how many of us would remember how to do a roundhouse kick in that instance. in that state there prob were a few singhnian that were able to draw their weapons, but most probably had barely time to run away. Just trying to think of their pain as they tried to run away is too much for my mind, imagine as they fell, who wouldnt wish for death as hands crept towards you. Brothers and more importantly sisters, our mothers and elder sisters were attacked time and again all over India. How many children walking around in Punjab have been lied to about their father? their mother being attacked by some filthy policeofficer. How many of our mothers are still sitting in delhi, those wounds permanently stuck in their minds, how many are inflicted with aids and other diseases. how many would have been left to rot in the streets? We have failed miserably as a communittee to protect them or to help them. We dont even know how many of who they are! When will our people learn to care for each other rather than see each other with eyes just searching for the dirt. Dont forget it may well be that one of your family has been through this, it might just be that you dont know about it.

<edited>-1 I aint got any problem with him being a monah, im on about whether or not he's being a hypocrite for saying to people that they are moving away from religion by not wearing their dastaar whilst doing the same himself. if im no wrong on the video 'khalsa' he does a 10 or 15 min interview, and im not 100% sure but i cant rememeber him having a dasataar on then, hence for him to send his 'message' around the world is hypocrisy, unless of course he has started wearing one now (and thats not just for the pictures either). So maybe you want to calm down and try reading first, nobody has critisized the work he has done, but you trying to tell me that quoting a hinduvata racist is clever? Why would u mention someone who is part of a group which wants all muslims and non-hindus either subservant to their hindu masters, dead or out of the country!? that my friend is the issue. not the state of his hair. ps no matter who makes the media, it is such a business that it is always open for crticism and in fact that is the only way it improves. his work is a second step in the right direction (after many other films made yrs and yrs ago) but there is still a long way to go. so watch your mouth before you go off on one, for all you know i may or may not be doing seva, similar or otherwise, not thats its any of your business.

forgive me if im wrong... i thought this guy was a monah? unless he's started keeping his kesh recently.... whos he to tell people that they are moving away from sikhi?! The rss s**** view Guru Ji as the 10th hindu son the saviour of the hindu race from the muslims! What a twat to mention bal thackeray!!