apne

I have been to hemkunt sahib six times. The first time was in 1995 and i was a small child then :rolleyes: My last trip was about three years back. The place has changed over the years, increase in pollution etc. But the last time i went the weathor was mighty fine and very sunny. The locals said it was best in past 18 years. Here are some pictures i took. The third one is of 'valley of flowers' It is 88 sq. kms. in size. :o You can see the big glacier mountains that border China. You need a full day to explore, but the flowers are till only june. I went in september so no flowers were waiting for me

Raju as i had said sometime earlier, that you are possibly a Hindutva ideologist. They try to emulate the ways of various splinter groups in west and try to put that in their intellectual functioning. It is quite evident and visible when you try to compare Sikhi with christian movements and conveniently keep the so called hindu religion out. And becomes more visible when you try to mock the few numbers of sikhs. It has been explained to you that Sacha Sauda is not a religious group or sect. About your so called few numbers of Sikhs i will explain it you now how it works. We all know that during Ranjit Singh's rule the Sikhs formed only about 7% of total population of Kingdom. They were even less during the Misl period probably 4 - 6 %. But they were able to defeat the NWFP tribes, the most ferocious tribes in South Asia. How the Sikhs achieved that can be judged from the fact that the Americans and Pak army are having a difficult time to contain them. It is a well understood fact that when it comes to action only a few people actually take active part in any struggle. Population numbers are good only when you have to count votes for elections. Numbers can only influence the outcome of a general election (which your bapu gandhi understood quite easily), they don't have any other use. Take the case of Indian population, a billion strong nation is unable to take it's claimed parts of J&K from a comparitvely inferior Pak. When you compare the west with Asia, take any Euro country viv a vis India, it is self explanatory on the usefullness of large numbers. Now lets us examine the usefullness of large numbers in religion. Hinduism has 900 million followers. But what is the outcome or advantage of this large numbers. For the past 1400 years, hindus have been subjected to slavery first by Muslims then by British. The present state of hinduism is like a comedy drama. There is no hindu nation in the world. They cry hoarse that there is 'hindustan', but it is in reality a derogatory term used by Muslims. What is the state of hinduism right now. All it's basic principles such as caste system, worship of idols, wearing of janeu, supermacy of Brahmins, the existence of four social class of people, Sati, cow worship, celibacy etc. (all basic doctrines) are nowhere to be seen or recognized. There is no historical proof of any existence of any Hindu God, they are acknowledged myths. The texts of Hindu doctrine are mythical stories written for entertainment. In the name of hinduism all that exists is blind superstitions (there was a claim recently that the workshop of 'ravan' has been found in sri lanka, where he built and kept flying planes; pushpak vimaan) lol. There is no cohesive structure. The beliefs and practises of hindus change with every 40 kms. It is like a hotchpotch of beliefs thrown together to form a common name which is nowhere uniform. It is a well known fact that if the ten million sikhs had not opted to live with 500 million hindus during partition, the great hindus would have starved to death and unable to survive. Dera Sacha Sauda is a cult of hinduism like many other movements. Majority of it's followers (1.5 crore) are Hindus and very few sikhs, muslims, christians. And i don't want to debate on media especially IBN and NDTV (both very anti-Sikh and anti-akali dal) On why the controversy erupted read Post #4 here. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=37969&st=0 If Sikhs thought like hindus then they would claim sacha sauda to be sikh and increase their numbers, but what will it do? Make it contradictory like hinduism is today! The advantage of less numbers is that tommorow if you land anywhere in the world and find a Sikh there, he would look exactly like the Sikh in Punjab, the way Guru Gobind Singh wanted. And Sikhs everywhere share same set of beliefs and practises of Gurus, unlike any other religions.

Mr. Raju many have replied to your question but it seems that you want a more practical answer. Ok. Here it is. Dera Sacha Sauda is a intelligence agencies sponsored enterprise as are many others. Their prime job is to influence and ensure that people do not think of revolution but stay in and believe in peace and non-violence. This way their mind is not able to be revolutionised by thoughts freedom movement against the govt. If you look at the present condition of Indian society, widespread poverty, exlpoitation of masses, no redressal of grievences, no food security, no scope of justice, mass scale human rights abuses, rampant corruption. etc. etc. you will be amazed that there is no reaction from public. The reason is these govt sponsered deras. They help in keeping the minds of people away from common movement and their energy is directed to useless direction. People go to these deras for getting hope in face of their many problems. The reason these deras are strong in Punjab also helps in keeping population support for khalistan in check.

Sikhs are not a race, Sikhs are a Nation.

Did it help you?

Raju, i think you are high on opium.

The Nirankaris are a heretical sect that have been ex-communicated. However, Sacha Sauda is neither a sect of Sikhi nor a religious group. It is more like a cult that uses different religious texts (hindu, sikh, jain, bible, quran) depending on the type of audience present.

What about destroyed buddhist temples. The jains claim that the temple of Badrinath was originally a jain temple, overtaken forcibly by followers of shankracharya. The holy lands in west are unmolested because they were able to defend them. The hindus were not able to defend theirs. As were jews whose holy temple in jerusalem was destroyed by Roman armies. And don't forget that majority of muslim mosques in middle east are bulit on churhes. The basic problem is that Sikhs defended and protected Hindus against Mughals. But the Hindus abandoned Sikhs after annexation of punjab by British and established Arya Samaj to help Christian Missionaries in cutting at the roots of Sikhism. And took anti-Sikh stand in 1984. Sikhs cannot and will not forget this injustice and shameful betrayal. Peace. Period.

Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh is a head of a cult in Haryana and claims to be inter-faith religious group. In early 2002 one of his female disciple wrote a letter to President of India, Prime Minister of India and Chief Justice of Punjab High Court that ram rahim raped her and got her pregnant. He forced her to go for abortion. She said that ram rahim rapes many of his female disciples regularly. He does not allow these women to go outside the Dera and forces them to have physical relations with them. The theory given by him is "You have surrendered everything to satguru and i am satguru hence everything belongs to me" The girl did not reveal her name, she feared that ram rahim will kill her. She asked for help in rescuing her and other girls from dera. A journalist exposed his misdeeds in his newspaper and he was killed on orders of ram rahim. The case was reffered to CBI. CBI operated some undercover agents in his dera for a year to gather truth. According to CBI there have been around 70 abortions done on female disciples in Dera and many are physically exloited by ram rahim. Ram Rahim tried to make a deal with Badal and BJP to influence the invetigations against him.(the investigations had come to close and it was evident that Badal was going to be next CM of Punjab) Ram Rahim said that he would help Akali Dal win the elections but in return they would have to support him in influencing the investigations against him. Badal refused. So ram rahim struck a deal with Amarinder singh and congress. He would help them win the elections and they would help him in winning the cases against him. He supported the congress but congress did not come to power. But Ram rahim got high in his ability to influence election results (around 25 seats were won by Congress due to call given by ram rahim to his followers). So he hatched a conspiracy. He attired himself as Guru Gobind singh and mocked the ceremony of vaisakhi 1699. He had hoped that it would result in communal clashes across Punjab (His dera claims to have 1.5 crore followers). His theory was that because of unstability Badal would be forced to resign and there would be fresh elections. In that elections congress would win and form the government. so, as part of deal congress would help him in escaping from clutches of CBI.(as central govt is congress and CBI is answerable only to Centre) In addition to that he thought that by mocking Guru gobind singh, his religious reputation would increase. His was a carefully thought out plan, but it backfired. He hurt Sikh sentiments and made fun of Sikhi. His actions incited communal clashes and voilence. So, it turned the whole Sikh population against him. His 1.5 crore following is in hiding and ram rahim is looking for a place to hide.

This is exactly what hindus are trying to do. They want to destroy everything non-hindu in India. Only their manner and approach is different. They are not Bamans for nothing. Like bania gandhi said "Hinduism is an ocean into which everything flows".

Hindus have learnt one thing that they cannot learn another.

What are they propagating?

Gandhi can easily judged from his work, life and thoughts. It is a weak argument that he should be judged according to the time he lived. Same can be said to apply to British, they were ruling India in dark times. Infact at that time there was no India as a nation only different kingdoms. When the British arrived they found the house divided against themselves, so conquered it easily. That way the actions of 'Mahmud of Ghazni' too were not wrong or cruel. The age he lived in demanded the things he did, so he did them. India is paying the price of Gandhi's vision. During one of his rallies a 'Brahmin' rightfully remarked that "he has come to re-instate the glory of Hinduism". I just wanted to state that "anti-establishment seed in the minds of people" is the legacy of Gandhi and not western propaganda. If anyone indulged in whitewashing of history, it was Gandhi, Nehru and gang.

The British were bad, but they are not the sole cause of all indian problems. India cannot survive without the support of America and west. It becomes pretty clear from india's association with USSR in early decades, it got us nothing. India is what it is today only because of implementation of liberal policies after 1991. And that too was under duress. India had applied for a loan from world bank and it refused to give the loan unless India agreed to policies of privatisation as per America and Europe. India is dependant more on Imports for survival than on exports. It is incapable of meeting energy needs and military requirements on it's own. The problem of India is Gandhi and Nehru. They tried to hinduize everything in India. They worked slyly towards establihing India as a pure hindu nation. Gandhi is infact the forerunner of modern hindutva ideology. He was the first to bring religion into politics by claiming "politics cannot be seperated from religion". If he had not been assassinated , he would have turned india into a cow dungeon. The vision of Gandhi was not based on furture or technology, but a mythical text, Gita, and vedas.The story of Gandhi and his religious thought are intertwined. He interpreted everything through hinduism, "Hinduism is an ocean into which everything flows into". He sided with the British and opposed revolution. Through a make believe impotent non-voilence he prevented India from attaining independance not only political but ideological. Indias political system is based on british model. After independance nothing changed, only people in positions of power did and their designations. Common man continued to be exloited and still is. Gandhi was used by british to their advantage. It is doubtful whether Gandhi could have done what he did if was not a Hindu. He saw all religions through hinduism and for him only Hinduism provided a framework for balance between religion and politics (as majority were hindus). He successfully used Hinduism to reach his political ends. In this sense he is no different from "Sangh Pariwar". Gandhis refusal to embrace any other religion was based on Hindu spirit of inclusivism. The problems started when they backtracked from promises made by them to Sikhs. And then Nehru and Patel coerced various princely states into joining indian dominion, it brought about political unity but not national unity. After Nehrus death politics in India continued to be funded by the Soviet and its secrets were sold for a song to CIA and KGB by indian officials. Indian agencies helped create militancy in Punjab (exposed by former agents) and did not want to find a solution. Indira Gandhi used the punjab problem to garner hindu votes, which she needed badly post emergency. Every problem was blamed on Pak and CIA. But Sikhs were not alone in wanting their fair and deserved share in India, they were just ahead in time by a few decades. Now other communities, especially Dalits have become aware of the atrocities and want freedom of thought and life. As is with other communities. The brahmins are the root cause of every problem in India. The muslim problem is the finest example. After independance, the somnath temple in gujrat was re-built under govt patronage and a mosque in it's place was demolished. Nehru played a formost role. The reason given that the mosque was built in first place by demolishing somnath temple by invadors and the mosque was not used by muslims as they had gone to Pakistan, was an act of 12th century and not modern day India. Now when these suppressed people move to west there they find an atmosphere wholly opposite to India. Then the feeling and memories of injustice done back home comes back haunting and the result is not unpredictable. The atrocities done on their parents and families are not easy to forget. "Vision of Gandhi, no different from Hindutva" from The "Young India" periodical

There is huge money involved in drug trade. Add to it no strict anti-drug trade laws and a corrupt establishment. You get an explosive situation. Also indian society is morally corrupt, this was the main reason for indian subjugation by invading armies. There is no way out.

'When a jackel faces death, he starts running towards the city' Shiv sena chief Bal Thackrey has only proved his ungratefulness by using humiliating language for Sikhs in his weekly newspaper 'saamna'. The world knows that in the past invadors of hindustan would forcibly take away their [hindus] daughters and sell them in the markets of 'Gazni' and 'Basra' for dimes. These daughters [of hindus] were rescued by those elders of Sikhs about whom Thackrey said that Sikhs should remember the fate of their elders[ in 1984]. Mann said that when a jackel is about to die, he starts running towards the city. Talking about Thackrey and communal people like him, Mann said that these people are ungrateful and have forgotten the unmatched sacrifice made by Guru Tegh Bahadur for saving Hindus and the historical battles fought by Guru Gobind Singh for protecting their honour and his sacrificing his whole family for humanity. Forgetting these examples [people like Thackrey] are challenging the crowned and honoured community of Sikhs and humiliating them by saying [cheap] things about their elders. Mann said that the Sikhs did not accept the dictates of cruel rulers such as Abdali, Zakaria Khan, Nadir Shah, Massa Rangar and Indira Gandhi and the fake boasts of Thackrey would never affect Sikhs and divert them from their mission. Mann said that [Thackrey] should remember the fate of people like General Dyer, Indira Gandhi, Beant singh and Gen Vaidya. He said if people like Thackrey had a conscience and moral character then they would be raising voice against the abuses, social and national, of Sikhs [by govt] and not say humiliating things for Sikhs or threaten them. Mann said that the Sikhs are real successors and inheritors of India who gave 90% of sacrifices for the nation during independance movement. Mann also criticised SGPC chief Makkar for offering rs. 5 lac to the victim's family in Mumbai. He said the value of 'Shaheeds' cannot be calculated in terms of money but by respect in ones heart. He issued an appeal to sikhs to take part in railway blocking on 25 june for sending a strong message to Centre. Hope its a fine translation!

Why are you so happy :gg: Have you accepted the Hindutva agenda or are you one of them or have you failed to understand their hidden agenda ? I was laughing at Bal Thackrey.lol

I read it in 'The Sikhs in History' by Sangat Singh. During the 1950s when Jawaharlal Nehru was nearing his death, he hired a pandit to lenghten his life. Nehru was suffering from acute illness and was nearing death, so he had a pandit who would recite and chant 'mantras' for curing Nehru and to increase his life. Nehru at that time was involved in a bitter struggle with the Sikhs, who were demanding their fair share in independant India as promised by Nehru and Gandhi. Nehru wanted Sikhs to accept sovereingty of Hinduism and Hindu culture. One day the pandit after chanting his 'mantras' told Nehru that Sikhi would suffer much in coming years but then would recover and grow by leeps and bounds by the end of century. It would shine as a bright star in the sky (emphasis added by me). It caused much annoyance and discomfort to Nehru and furthered his death. If we look at the past sixty years the pandit was indeed true. Prof. Hari Ram Gupta while writing history of Sikhs wrote that Sikhism would emerge as the greatest religion in 21st century.

Bal Thackrey was crying because Sikhs protested violently on their own. Until now only Shiv Sena protests violently in Mumbai, so it was kind of blow to his prestige. Last heard, sikhs and shiv sainks blocked the Pune-Mumbai Expressway together today. :D

I voted but is the survey going to be used by disney or is it just one of those another surveys.

The next govt in centre is going to face steep inflation growth rates. And Sidhu is not going to be part of that govt. He is going to loose his seat in next general elections. Just wait and see.

The leaders in Bombay have issued an apology to general public that they are extremely sorry for threatening them with swords, and have assured Bal Thackrey that peace would be maintained. They have humiliated themselves by apologising only after mr. thackrey warned them. They should have apologised before or should have waited for a few days. By aplogising only a day after thackrey warned of communal disaster they have made a fool of themselves. Leaders also met congress Chief Minister Deshmukh. Meanwhile dera jootha sauda mass rapist ram rahim flew in a helicopter to his dera in Sirsa. Sikhan naal dugni maari hoyi hai, banda vi marva liya te maafi vi mang layi.

The leaders in Bombay have issued an apology to general public that they are extremely sorry for threatening them with swords, and have assured Bal Thackrey that peace would be maintained. They have humiliated themselves by apologising only after mr. thackrey warned them. They should have apologised before or should have waited for a few days. By aplogising only a day after thackrey warned of communal disaster they have made a fool of themselves. Leaders also met congress Chief Minister Deshmukh. Meanwhile dera jootha sauda mass rapist ram rahim flew in a helicopter to his dera in Sirsa. Sikhan naal dugni maari hoyi hai, banda vi marva liya te maafi mang layi.

I can give you links for downloading any anti-spyware or anti-virus , spyware doctor, avg, norton etc. (all cracked). But i don't know how safe they will be. Use them on your own risk. Pm me if you want the links.

It is all politics between Raj Thackrey and shiv sena. Raj is being used by Congress to down Bal Thackrey and now each is trying to promote himself as the real leader who is concerned about common marathi man for votes.