Khaalis

There is no '1 comprehensive' book. If you want a quality education - take your time and read bite size - read subjects seperately in detail then build the picture up, its more fun and you will have a fuller understanding and be able to speak about theology/history maturely rather than simply basing it on other peoples summarised views. Best thing to do is go to your local library and pick a book, yuo also need to familiarise yourself with Authors and eventually learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff. There re 10,000s of books on Sikhi. Best to go to original sources where possible i.e. Sakhi translations, rehitnamai, Suraj Prakash, Panth Prachin Prakash, Gurbilas Patshaahi 6 and 10, Sainapti, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdas Jis vaaran/kabit Svaye, Bhai Nand Lal Goyas ghazals to name but a few. Have fun - learning is never ending journey, enjoy it rather than measuring it.

Lol, hey, whatever tickles your fancy!

West Midlands is an excellent place for learning various yudh kalaan. People should join classes of whatever is closest to them i.e. Shastar Vidya in Wolves, Brum and Leicester, Master Hari Singh - Brum, there is a JKD Sifu Sardaar in Brum (forget his name now)... thre is Shinkin in Wolves etc... All of thethese will help you develop confidence, courage, awareness, give you some idea of real combat through sparring, give you yudh vidyala sangat, teach you about conditioning/training for strentgh/flexibility and speed, teach you how to use weapons etc etc. In particular one needs to learn how to do Dhummala/Dara raksha and use their kara in combat - this is taught by Nidar Singh Nihang. As Kalyug says, familiarity with Dasam Bani and incorporating puratan NITNEM elements in to your NITNEM i.e. Chandi ki Vaar, will help you no end. There is no excuses, those who carry a kirpan or aspire to - need to understand its meaning and use - IT IS NOT A SYMBOL AS MANY MIDDLE CLASS SELF APPOINTED SCHOLARS tell you, I have seen people on the Sikh channel say this. Same goes for the kara. Yo don't need to use kirpan, what I would recommend to every Gursikh is to always keep a short stick (around 6 inches long) you can get these from martial arts shops for a couple of pounds, these are nornally used by Filipino martial arts to practie knife techniques safely. This is an extremely and effective weapon, which won't kill (if used correctly) BUT CAN CAUSE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE. Its use should be learnt for self defence - a little different from knife fighting, where as in knife fightnig one learns to slash specific points (or stab) using the stick is more akin to striking - i.e. if someone punches you, you side step and stirke the but of the stick on their hand/wrist - which will more likely than not, break some fingers or even the wrist. Simple. Other targets are under teh armpit, under the chin, under the nose, eyes, temple, groin shins, knees, elbow etc. Its best to be taught, but at the very least, use some resources and learn some basics, always be armed, even with this little stick - it also gives one confidence. An old Nordic saying goes.... "A knifeless man, is a lifeless man......." Be Tyaar Bar Tyaar, physically. Lastly, forget politics etc, when one wants to learn to fight, remember that is what you are learning - doesn't matter about the beliefs of your teacher, learn the fightting vidya from them. Dasam Patshah Palaa karai a te Bahaduri devai.

Hazur Sahib Rehraas and Ardaas is Sampuran (complete) and the traditions are Puraatan (original/traditional). It is the Punjabi and Delhi Gurdwaras that have been influenced by the British educated and nfluenced reformist Sikhs of the early 20th C - who formed the 2nd Singh Sabha commitee and SGPC. Takhts in Patna and Nanded were outside of these reformist's clutches, hence still have traditional practices. Try and understand real traditions with an open mind, and not judge them based on own limited experience/understanding.

I don't know what you mean by 'has he taken Gurmantra'. I would expect he has been given Gurmantra by Nirmala Sants as is the Nirmala tradition.

"Nobody called him a RSS man. It is persons like you who are fabricating his own stories." Read Das Nimanas post below which was posted earlier in this thread. I do not fabricate stories, stop getting over excited. "The question here is Do we need teachings of vedanata to realize akal purakh. If so where is it written in Gurbani? Instead of diverting the topic in the name of RSS etc. please show us quoting from gurbani." Nirmala Sants were the original academics and theoligans of 18thc and 19th Sikhi - in fact most Sant movments are rooted in Nirmalali teachings i.e. Bhinderan jathaa, Nanaksar, Hoti Mardan, Harkowal, Rara Sahib etc. Read Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhinderas reading list and listen to his and Sants (from aforementioend groups) kathaa to see how tey use 'elements' of vedanta i.e. terminology and aatmik science - to propogate and Gurmat. There are many terms and principles derived from Vedanta (not vedanta itself per s) which are used in gurbani - its common sense to learn about them and explain Gurmat using the full knowledge. "I am aware of a few Gursikhs who had achieved supreme bliss and they did not know a word of vedanta. Gurbani lays stress on meditation on shabad Guru." Fair enough, no one denies, that, there is not just one route, nor are we all the same, some delve into issues deeper, in order to perform higher level parchaar for the more intellectual audience. Anyway, as I said before - Swami Ji does not conform to Vedanta per se, they use it to enhance understanding of Gurmat in their parchaar - they place stress on Gurmantar Simran, and even teach techniques, and exlpni beautifully how simran enables someone to become a perfect Raaja - i.e. instead of becoming a King who takes and wants more (land, wealth, fame etc) simran enables one to become a true King - i.e. one who serves his subjects. Through the removal of haumai - one becomes God focused and through prema bhagti - one with God. The above metaphor is used to explain how a Sikh through simran, achieves perfection in performing all sansaari duties, be them grihisht, yudh, seva, whatever. Its a waste of time theorising 'what he teaches', instead of wasting time here, just listen to Swami jis Gurmat Bachan, you will not be disappointed. "This is the hidden agenda of RSS .True Sikhs should beware. RSS tries to flatter Sikhs by praising their Gurus and martyrs and then they(RSS) distorts Sikh history according to their own agenda.These low lifes have given gone to the extent of calling and depicting Bhai Mati Das,the great Sikh martyr , as a "Hindu" with "bodi" on their books .Some have even named him Mati Das "Sharma". When will the foolish Sikhs learn about the hidden agenda of RSS ?Whenever RSS does anything in the name of Hindu Sikh unity it is to finish Sikhism.In fact RSS does not believe in Sikhism as a seperate religion.They have finished Budhism,Jainism from India and now is it the turn of Sikhism ? But these RSS people should learn something from the fate of Rulda Singh,Punjab's RSS chief. If you people believe in Sant Jarnail Singh you can never follow these RSS people."

Actually there is more to it than that. When one replaces the chorus (Rahao) of a shabd with another Pada, they totally change thje message and meanign of the shabd - most kirtani who don't follow Sirlek i.e. raag hukum, don't follow rahao in most cases too. The raag is important because it gets across that which language cannot - i.e. context. The context comes through body language and timbre/expression of voice. Singing a Bairaag or seriousshabd in a happy go lucky format is a total disrespect of Gurbani - i.e. the whole business orientated 'Lakh Kushiyan Paatsaahihan' fraud that kirtani have invented and ignorant sangat demand at thie kiddies birthday akhand paath bhogs etc.

I went to see Swami Parmanand Ji last week after having listened to many of their amazing deevnas on Gurmat. They are truely amazing - a truely humble and spiritual being. Their teachings centre around Bairaag, Prema Bhagti, Naam, Grihisht perfection and Simran. Only an <banned word filter activated> would think that they are part of RSS - they are involved with Nirmala Babai and spend much time learning with them. It was a real blessing to have them grace the UK. Their is no conflict re Vedanta - they are above religious bounderies - they take the Sat essence (non-conflicting) from all and teach Hindus and Sikhs alike on Parmatmas message of Jeevan Mukti. I have seen them unreservedly doing Gurmat Parchaar (correctly) consistently naming and quoting Guru Sahiban and Sri Guru Granth Sahib to Hindu only audiences in Mandhirs. They are the epitome of a Saadh - if you are able to, listen to their Sloak Mahalla 9 deevans. For the fanatics, its your loss.

Keerpa, kindly stick to the topic, we are discussing - kirtan. Learn to not throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because a personality is famous doesn't make them right, Hajinder Singh and Sant Anoop Singh are 2 of the biggest users of Bollywood tunes, this is not a reflection on their personality/spirituality in any other way - but fact is fact, they do filmi kirtan - and it is the popularity of these tunes which are blasted across Sky adn Radio that many sangatans mind joins to... this is why most Gurdwarai committees order Raagi Jathaas to not sing in Raag - so the Sangat numbers and 'Peta' doesn't get affected - kirtan (on the whole) is nothing more than A - a business and B - a Political tool (used for increasing Jathaa/Dera numbers) C - a Popularity device. What needs to change is the Sangats attitudes - through them, the Committees and further the Raagi Jathaas can be pressured into learning and performing Gurus parvaan and sampooran kirtan.

This is a big and complex topic – I will only make a few points here, for anyone that is really interested – there are some great threads discussing the issues in depth in the Gurmat Sangeet section of a forum which is not allowed to be mentioned on SikhSangat.com. - Kirtan Maryada is the clearest and most undisputable maryada in the Panth – it is written in the Sirlek (instruction title) of nearly every single bani in Guru Granth Sahib. - Up until the SGPC took over the Gurdwarai 90 years ago, Rababis, Raagis etc were still performing kirtan in Sirlek Raag using Gurus Tanti Saaj. After SGPC took over, tanti saaj were dismissed and harmonium introduced. - The first instances of non-raag/simple folk type kirtan was started by teh Sant movement i.e. Sant Attar Singh Ji as a response to the massive Missionary preaching going on in Punjab by Christians who were using vaajai and simple folk styles and language to convert uneducated populace – this is where the dhhaarna tradition started by Sants - do kirtan parchaar in the same format as the Missionaries. - The present rvaaj of filmi kirtan which infects all main jathebandiyan inc AKJ, Taksal etc, started with the development of cinema and all india radio which was the single form of communication/information for decades before the TV was introduced – the affect of all india radio was astronomical... - Amateur kirtani replaced seasoned trained professional Raagis who had dedicated their whole life to learning this beautiful art of the Guru – as they amateurs were cheaper to employ – they could learn vaaja in a few weeks/months as opposed to tanti saaj which takes longer and requires dedication and a real understanding of music. - People have become personality worshippers, swapping their Gurus own mat for the opportunity to copy their role models and use their actions as a justification to warrant their decision to not learn proper kirtan. - Sant kirtan is understandable as per the above explanation but this style was adopted by Bhai Randhir Singh and other famous personalities for the purpose of parchaar etc. We do not need to judge these Gurmukhs actions, what they did, they know and it is between them and Akaal, we should not try to copy others, but simply listen to our Gurus hukum. Raag has far from disappeared – Namdhari Parampara has a strong tradition, we have many professional Raagis in India and outside India who have done great work in preserving traditions, we have texts with puratan reetan which have been published etc etc... there is a growing number of gurmat sangeet schools worldwide, the future looks orange.

The Khayal Sirlek is believed by many Sikh Musicologists to be the 1st mention of the Khayal style of singing in Shaastri Sangeet. Modern legends put the claim to fame in the Mughal Darbars, but Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is the first physical evidence of the use of the modern Khayal mode of raag rendition. As stated above it is interesting the sirlek does not have a raag hukum in it like other Shabd Hazare shabds of 10th Master - giving Rababis artistic license - its categorisation under Shabd Hazare clearly shows it was composed to be sung (which it is, heavily). Sri Sarbloh Grant Sahib also has similar Sirleks with not only Khayal, but 'Dhrupad' singing style as well, providing cross referenced evidence of the above theory. Research into Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib is being undertaken by a few Gursikhs at present, hopefully, a full analysis will be presented in the near future.

The 'trash' culture of young Punjabs 'Sikhs', esp in the US and CA west, should be a wakeup call to all the fanatical youth in this country who think our kaum is so great and that Muslim are to blame for crime etc. This trash culture exists in the UK and in Punjab too, in Punjab it is looked at as cool, in UK it is largely ignored because we can focus on and blame the Muslims, for the exact same crimes our own youth are commiting, be it the use/abuse of Sikh girls, drugs, theft etc etc. The trash culture actually affects most communities, very few communities are relatively unaffected. The core problem stems from a lack of education, real culture and religion - youth who have not been handed these treasures from their parents (from all communities) resort to trash hip hop tupac culture. Its a global problem - which affects all mankind alike, and is rooted in the grip the panj vaikaar have over our mun - due to the dilution of true religious understanding and practice (whatever religion). The few communities I have seen which are relatively unaffected inc the educated Shia, Jewish and Hindu communities.

There are many shaheed Singhs daughters who have been forgotten about in India, as well as 'abandoned' girls (as babies - abandoned rather than murdered) who have been raised in Sikh orphanages and are Gurmukh through to the core - those who are open minded enough to marry a girl from India and want to perform an invaluable seva to the Panth also - should follow this route i.e. marrying these forgotten Gur-Sikhniyan - you don't have to worry about the above mentioned problems either - these Bibiyan are immaculate, inside and out. Please, please consider this option. Thanks.

"Zameen means land, not floor. Floor is farsh in Punjabi. People have a love for their land, not for their floors, whether they be marble, granite, harwood, or tile." MLOL, Capri, maybe you should learn Punjabi before you comment on Punjabi culture. For your info, Punjabi culture is probably one of the greatest cultures in the world - it has been blessed by the wisdom of Zoroastrianism, Buddism, Islam, Indic faiths and Sikhi. The great wars of the Mahabharat occurred in Punjab. Punjab has been the trade centre and cultural melting pot of Asia for over 3,000 years – with evidence of the earliest great civilisations being found on this land. The contrast of invaders from all over Asia has given Punjab a plethora of mythology, legend, art, song, dance, etc etc... the folk culture (I am not talking about Manak or G Mann) is 2nd to none, one must study it to appreciate it... Baba Farid Shakarganj blessed this holy land and chose/propagated its language over Pashtun/Farsi etc.. The wisdom that exists in folk culture is mind blowing – and so deeply ingrained through experience of joy and sorrow, that Guru Sahiban have coloured Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj with umpteen examples of folk music i.e. Ghoriyan, Vanjara, Sohilai, Vaar to name but a handful. The shame is that people limit Punjabi culture to bhangra, Manak/Maan, drinking, acting like ‘shere’ after a few bottles of whiskey and all the rubbish most modern Punjabi music sings about. The deep and correct Sufi arth of Heer – as mentioned by Bhai Gurdas Ji are an example of wonderful Punjabi culture. Even the modern raag system was invented in Punjab with a fusion of the Sufis Persian modes and Indias classical jaati system – this falls under the broad heading of Punjabi culture. I could write on this subject for a long time, but the truth is that only articulate/open minded people will get the gist and look into this further... majority of people think that culture (real) and religion are incompatible, yes they maybe in some aspects, but in many other they are perfectly complimentary. At its height, Punjabs poety tradition challenged the legendary Persian Darbars - to the point that many top Persian Kavis moved to Punjab..

Just one question, as we are on the subject of income generation... why does sikh channel only ever show one advert, the same advert which is predominantly shown on Britasia also... the Direct Insurance (or whatever its called). I have been told that Bal is associated with this company (sitson the Board of Directors or something). This seems highly unprofessional and a serious conflict of interest if its true... things like this are going to be the undoing of the Sikh Channel. Also, as we are on teh subject of high quality programming, with all due respect and no offence intended, it would be good if Boota Singh could a break once in a while, yesterday he was using an old joke (re the drowning man, God and a helicopter) as the basis of kathaa regarding hukum, which in my view was a pretty poor and irrelevant aid. Also, there are so many talented kirtani (youths) out there, it would be good to see more diversity and Sikhs who do seva in one specific area (i.e. either kirtan, simran, taarna or kathaa) rather than here Bhai Sahibs mix of gurbani, simran and taarna – which is always to the same tune. This does not take away from Boota Singhs good intentions. No offence intended, I am simply providing a collective sangats perspective (after having spoken to other Gursikh who watch this channel). I am mentioning it here as SC are more likely to take notice here rather than being contacted directly. Thanks.

Apologies and thanks for the corrections Bhai Sahib. Wonderful Anand Kharaj Seva you did last weekend at Coventry - was without doubt the most beautiful 'fit for purpose' kirtan I have ever heard at a Sikh wedding. T o hear the kirtan for Palai, Karmai and Anand Kharaj all in nirdareth raag in what was (or was close to) Dhrupad, was truely amazing. Dhanvaad Ji.

Lol, personal quarrels do not equate to the SA 'admin' team inciting hatred! Thats the silliest thing I have ever heard. Whilst some members of the forum certainly do laugh at the puritan mindest of some Sikh Sangat members (and even admin), the SA admin have never bad mouthed this forum, on the contrary, they always make a specific point that they comments are not a reflection on the forum... Banning the mention of what is probably the most eye opening/intellignet Sikh forum on the net is a disastrous move in terms of the professionalism and lack of ekta mindset of Sikh Sangat Forum Admin. That N30 has been banned from here due to whatever reason, is no reflection on his N30s neutral and tolerant attitude towards everyone else including those very people that banned him from here.. Anyway, I digress.

You shouldn't mock tht which you don't understand little boy. Don't tempt fate, Akaal has painful lessons for people like you, having someone affected by this problem in ones own family is not a laughing matter - I have seen the pain other people have been through. For your info, the Dera in India does not charge for their seva its nishkaam - people give whatever they can out of thanks.

Admin/Akaali, do you bother replying to questions or explaining your decisions to those they affect? Or do simply operate a Talibanic administrations system?

Bhenji, If you would like to learn Guru-mat Kirtan (Gurmat Sangeet) as per Guru Sahibans Kirtan maryada in Gurbani Sirlek, and using the beautiful fit for purpose saaj the Gurus designed and blessed us with... then you can learn from Harjinder Singh Lallie who teaches at Nanaksar Gurdwara on Friday evenings - which is only 5 mins away from Sedgley Street. All the best on this most beautiful journey.

You are asking the wrong person, you need to ask the Seniors at Taksal. I have great respect for Taksali orgs, specifically for their main role as Santhiya Teachers, but I don't agree with everything they say -and nor do they represent the full/collective thought of the Panth. This is not something to get upset about or start a debate on, its simply fact. And I didn't promote the Dera or Gurdwara, I am simply speaking of my personal experience of meeting and speaking to sevadaars and sangat in this Coventry Gurdwara (as opposed to hearsay), if something wrong has happened at the Gurdwara, then the case needs to be addressed responsibly, not by spreading rumours on Sikh Sangat. The Dera in India is not a place people visit for yatras or go to for holidays, sadly it is a last resort for hundreds of thousands who have been affected by the evil plays of man. Bhai Kavi Santokh Singh tells us that only NIT Japji Sahib can prevent the world of pooth praath affecting us, sadly, those who have not had the blessings of being taught to make Japij sahib their lifestyle are vulnerable to the powers of jealousy and dark hearted Babai. For 300 years - Baba Vadbagh Singh Dera has served as a seva kar for humanity which isn't protected by Guru ki Bani - and Guru ki Bani is the shakti which is used to remove foreign elements from victims.

Kindly provide one historical source for the above mentioned story of Baba Vadbagh Singh. Dalpanth have a different take on Baba Vadbagh Singh, which is colloborated with seperate historical references, its up to you who you choose to believe - you should not accept everything blindly, Taksal or not. Re 'the story you heard' about this Bibi, sounds like they were trying to exorcise her, I expect thats why her family took her there in the 1st place, because it is a name sake Gurdwara of the original seva dera for these problems, I have no idea what their level of expertise is, but if she has had a bad experience, then why not go to the Police?

Could I ask why the site is banned, its a treasure trove of Gurmat - it has so much info on Simran, Kirtan, Sants/Mahapursh, Puratan Sampryada, Sri Dasm Granth Sahib etc etc....

Could I ask why admin has removed my post? Seems like extremely childish behaviour. What is wrong with providing the sangat and the original poster here with an excellent resource on Guru Mat Kirtan?

Baba Vadbagh Singh in Coventry (or any others) have nothing to do with the main 300 year old Dera in India. All other Gurdwarai with this name operate independently. I have visited the Coventry Gurdwara, and personally found nothing untoward. In fact, the mani sevdaar is a very nice and humble bloke, who has brought in many monai Punjabi (drinkers/party goers – old and young) into the Sikh fold – who are now involved in daily seva at the Gurdwara. Baba Vadbagh Singh was a mahaan Yodhveer of the Panth – a true Warrior and was also a bhagat – immersing himself in bhagti for many years. He cannot be associated as part of the Panj Mel – as he received Khande De Pahul, so was forgiven his ancestral association. Kindly do some credible research or look up this topic which has most likely been discussed on this forum in the past. People with phobias over things they have no experience of nor understand will always have knee <banned word filter activated> reactions – yes some Hindu practices have sprung up in the main Dera over time – but the fact remains – that Gurbani is the central source used to help hundreds of thousands of individuals of all faiths an backgrounds every year. I hope the excitable younger members of this forum will learn to stop speculating and doing nindiya of matters, peoples and organisations they have zero knowledge of.