Pyara

Dr Pyara Singh Bhogal seems like a decent panthic chap and is also part of this committee (as per how he's presented on Sikh Channel). Can't he influence over the current committee?

The gurdwara committee have regular meetings every tuesday and friday 7pm to 8.30 pm. Any contact between now and tuesday is likely to be escalated in their meeting. There is offense being generated from some of the older "self-appointed custodians" of the uk Sikhs (who shall remain nameless but appear regularly on sikh/punjabi media!) who have been communicating this lehar to close party halls in Gurghars in comparison to the "taliban" in Afghanistan......If these personalities feel that they are threatened by a grass roots reform movement within their own sangat then as per their own manufactured sikh jathabhandi job titles they should show real leadership of the gurdwara maryada issues in the uk..... Please do not give these people the ammunition to label us with derogatory comments and generalisations.... When speaking to the committees or posting comments on this thread please remain respectful.

I spoke to a committee member in the office earlier. Discussed the hall, it's activities and Akal Takht Sahib. The response from the member of the committee was that although he acknowledged that it is immoral to serve alcohol and meat in the Gurdwara owned hall there are more pressing issues in the Panth that need addressing. I then went on to say what could be more pressing then the centres of that Panth, our Gurdwaras, abusing Sikh principles. To which he replied that most Gurdwaras today are corrupt and we [Ramgharia Gurdwara Graham St] are one of the only democratic Gurdwaras where our sangat take the lead in decisions. He then went through a finger pointing excercise in relation to some Gurdwaras in Birmingham who do what he termed as "incorrect" things such as Sampat Paths or Japji Sahib/Sukhmani Sahib rauls which I found to be a spiteful comparison for allowing meat and alcohol on the Gurdwara premises. It's unfortunate that people fall in the trap of using the "2 wrongs make a right" proverb to justify what they are doing. I think deep down this committee member actually knows that what is going on in the hall is wrong but won't admit it. I think some postive thinking Gursikhs need to call up the committee and do some vichar. If the conversation is polite then a lot gets discussed. The committee member was polite but unfortunatly unfocussed and confused on what Gurmat priorities are. It's the classic case of passing the buck to the local "Sangat" who (as this committee member claims) in times of recession demand a discounted party hall for their functions which the House of Guru Nanak is expected to provide!! The committee have convinced themselves that they are performing a "sewa" by promoting the very activities that Guru Nanak Dev Ji took us away from 500 years ago.

Apparently there are many concerned people in the sangat who are still not aware about the positive outcome regarding the committee's decision to ban alcohol, meat and parties in the Grays Gurdwara Hall. Please ensure each of us pass the message on to others. It's only through our own word of mouth that awareness will be generated. There is a "soft" media block in getting the positive message out there, what we find is when the issue is volatile it get's a higher profile however when an issue is resolved or the outcome is positive then it's not seen as such a hot topic.

Jagtar Singh, How open is the meeting on the 11 December and is the expected way of raising any concerns via a formal established jathebhandi or Gurdwara committee only? In the event of none of the established naujwaan jathebandis coming forward, would an attendance of younger Sikhs be allowed to voice their opinions even if they are not endorsed by any of the above mentioned jathebhandis or Gurdwaras? Thanks

Sewa does not need to be formal. Perhaps by placing so much relevance on conventional formalised structures and leadership we have remained in a paralysed state when it has come to tackling issues. Gursikhs are all equal committed stakeholders to issues within Gurdwaras. I sense you are attempting to transmit an irrational opinion that there is something sinister in this lehar because you may personally not be involved. But the floor is open to all to be involved (including your good self) and it is on this very internet forum that Gursikhs gelled to shape a reaction against Grays and other committees carrying out Beadbi. If you were present at Grays you would have seen that no one hid behind websites or mobile phones and many Singhs, Singhniya, Monay etc put themselves forward as equals to express their concerns. If you browse through some of the youtube videos above, you can see the transparency of all the sewadars.

Please accept my apologies if I have represented myself as something superior. Let's just simply look at the issue at hand and see how it can be resolved or even turned around. If you have a direct connection with the Southampton Committee, perhaps get the message to them that if they openly condemn the actions of serving meat on the Gurdwara premises via a letter then it will be great positive publicity for them.....

The way I see it, the Satkaar campaign is clearly being co-ordinanted the UK Sangat! If you want a name of the leader of the Satkaar campaign then it's Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. You can get any better transparency than that!

I'm pretty much out of touch with who's who in Bhangra pop culture, but back in the day when I was a "keen" fan I don't remember the level of Dharmik geets that the pop stars today churn out. Not sure if it's postive or subtly adverse, especially when these pop singers portray themselves as spirtual in one video and then they have their hand up a womans skirt in another video! It sends out confusing messages. We need the sharam back in our lives. I'm all up for these dharmik geet, but I just wish the singers would tone down their over acting in the videos

I think some members of the Southampton community, who have recently started posting on sikhsangat.com, are spending too much time focusing on the "intentions" or "age" of the posted video clip. Please look at the issue at hand Let's move forward. If the committee/local sangat of Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara Southampton have abolished the serving of meat in the langar hall or any other Gurdwara building then they should release an official statement to this effect. Life is all about 2nd chances. Unfortunately, any non-response will just been interpreted as the Committee/local sangat still allowing this practice and are therefore in violating Akal Takht Sahib Sandesh. The Committee can officially contact Satkaar@hotmail.co.uk or call them 07507330548 or issue a statement in the Punjabi media saying they do not allow meat, alcohol, parties on the properties of the Gurdwara. From the postings of the Southampton community, it appears that the English breakfast is still served to the Sangat in a Gurdwara owned building.

After a lengthy discussion with Gurcharan Singh Landa yesterday, it appears that the Edinburgh Gurdwara committee are now expressing some anxiety in relation to being considered tankhaya (apostates) by Sri Akal Takht Sahib for not adhering to Gur Maryada. The Gurdwara committee had several meetings over the weekend due to the overwhelming impact of the UK Sangat contacting the Gurdwara, President and Committee members directly. Let's see what official communication they give out to the UK Sangat. Benti to all those Gursikhs who have made contact with this committee, please keep the dialogue going. Unlike the Grays Gurdwara Committee, the Edninburgh Committee seem to be listening and open to discussion.

I think we need to really analyticaly study our history and not end up in a romantic state thinking all was rosy under the British regime. As pointed out by others, we should be aware that the Sikhs were disarmed both physically and mentally by the British Colonial regime, our Kirpan was banned in Punjab, the blue bana, the bunga/dumalla, other shaster/symbols of the Khalsa At the same time the British army tactfully promoted a manufactured controlled Sikh warrior ideology within their regiments. In short we developed the slave mentality we still posses today. Many Sikhs died in the Anglo Sikh wars and immediately after the war many of our great influential mahapurshs and other Sikhs were exiled to Rangoon and Singapore or were imprisoned for life. Today we Sikhs are oblivious to the fact that after the first Anglo-Sikh war, the Granthis at the Akal Takht sahib were slaughtered in cold blood, by the British armies. This link is to this historical article on the UKPHA website taken from Illustrated London News on November 20, 1858 . Refer to the the paragraph titled 'The Akalis Tower, Umritzir'. Jalliawala Bagh was played down in the documentry. And how can we forget the child Maharaja Duleep Singh who was brought to the UK and groomed into Christianity and Maharani Jindan Kaur whoe died blind in exile from her Sikh homeland. All this was done to surpress the Sikh psyche.

Mohinder Pal Ji, We know from the Bani of Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj that the definition of Khalsa is no different than the definition of a Sant. A Sant of the Sikh Panth would keep the Rehit prescribed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj, would never allow himself to be called a Guru, and would never lead the Sikhs away from mainstream Sangat. The sangat of Guru Khalsa or such perfect Sants and submitting to the Panj Piyare is the foundation of Sikh Panth. Do not abuse the title of the Sant by even thinking that the likes of self proclaimed "Satguru" Hari, Partap or Jagjit Singh even deserve to be seen as Sants. Please stop your persistent woolly justification of the current self proclaimed naamdhari "Guru" Jagjit Singh by tactfully playing down his claim to fame with the 'Santan Sang Kabira Bigreyoo So Kabir Rame Hoye Nibreyoo' tuk. I have observed how you subtly seem to enter naamdhari related discussions with this approach.

Baba Ram Singh did some great sewa for the Panth, but he was NOT a Satguru/Guru! Kindly stop using the title interchangeably with Sant or Baba, you're making a mockery of our pavitar Guru title.

Many thanks to the sangat of Gurdwara Shri Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji, Leicester for emphasising the responsibility of a Gurdwara committee in the letter they have addressed to Grays Gurdwara. We are aware that the committee members of Grays are reading this thread and therefore urge the UK Sangat and Prabhandaks to communicate any dialogue or correspondence they have had with the committee of Grays Gurdwara. As far as the UK Sangat have been told, an emergency committee meeting has been scheduled for 5pm tomorrow (Thursday 11 Nov). In this meeting the Pardaan (Gurdip Singh Dhillon) has announced that he will present the remaining members of the Gurdwara committee with a formal notion forbidding meat, alcohol, tobacco and parties on the entire estate of all the Gurdwara's properties and a confirmation of the adherence to the Akal Takht Sandesh of April 2006. Unfortunatly, the Pardaan will then leave it up to the remaining members of the committee to "decide". In between now and then, it is requested that the influential Sikhs in the country contact the Grays Gurdwara Committee immediately in order to provide a steer so that the collective members of the Grays Gurdwara Committee are made aware of their obligation to Akal Takht Sahib (Supreme seat of Sikh authority and Sikh policy making) and Sikh Maryada.

Nanak Naam Chardi Kala Tere Bahanay Sarbat Da Bhalla - We all have a responsibility to ensure that the services we involve ourselves in, our spending, our saving and our investments don't cause harm to others. As Sikhs we should follow Gurmat and make decisions in our daily life which take into account the ethics and morals of our Guru Sahibs.

southamptonsingh, No hidden agendas here my dear brother. If the Gurdwara own a building which allows the serving of meat, alcohol, tabacco etc then it's in violation of Sri Akaal Takht Sahib's issued Sandesh. The meat is served to the sangat in the roop of the wedding guests as a breakfast or lunch in a Gurdwara owned building. It is still the jagir of the Gurdwara regardless of how "unrelated" you make out this building to be. Please refer to sandesh below which clearly states this

The Pardaan has called for an emergency meeting with the committee to address the situation. Although he agrees with the UK Sangats' concerns and openly expressed his refusal to the notion of meat, alcohol, parties etc being passed by the members (or local "sangat" as they like to be termed) of Grays Gurdwara by initially resigning and then being re-stated. The Pardaan seems to believe he is powerless against the "few "internal instigators who are still pushing the anti-Sikh activities through. The Grays Gurdwara committee have clear issues with regards to running a Guru Ghar under Sikh principles and need to "man up" to their responsibility rather than let 2 or 3 troublemakers run the show. We again request the Pardaan to take a strong lead of the situation and not allow the anti-Panthic agitators to influence the maryada in the Gurdwara.

The Grays Gurdwara Committee President Gurdip Singh Dhillon has now arrived back in the UK after spending several months in India. Although the Gurdwara President's absence (and the apparent need for this local "sangat" approval) was used as an excuse for the Grays Gurdwara committee's non-commitment to the Akaal Takht Sandesh, any excuses for not providing an official response are beginning to die down. Let's hope the Gurdwara President takes lead of the critical situation.

Thanks for the response. What about the Gurdwara owned hall across the road? Is meat still allowed to be served in there? According to the local community meat is allowed to be served on the morning of weddings. This is more than just a rumour and regardless of your classification of langar, if the bacon and eggs were prepared or served in the Gurdwara langar hall then it's likely to have been interpreted as langar The above video was taken in 2006, around 4 years ago, and the Sandesh was issued in 2006. Therefore I don't think your statement claiming the beadbi stopped 10 years ago holds true. Nevertheless, "if" as you claim this practice has actually stopped then a signed statement from the Gurdwara committee clearly stating that they will adhere to the Akal Takht Hukumnama and will be most helpful in ensuring the committee do not look "foolish", something along the lines of:

Some Singhs visited the Gurdwara last weekend and confirmed from individuals in the local congregation that meat is still allowed to be served in the form of sausages, bacon and eggs as a wedding "breakfast". As the Gurdwara langar hall is now considered too small to accommodate wedding guest, the wedding "breakfast" has moved to the Gurdwara's annexed hall across the road. NB this action is still in violation of Akal Takht Sahib's Sandesh of 2006. It is requested that the UK Sangat urgently start a dialogue with this Committee. As per what Gursa Singh has said above, there has definetly been no official communication made with this Committee. Gurdwara Tegh Bahadur Sahib Bhatra Sabha 8 Clovelly Road, Southampton SO2 0AU 02380 224 744

SEWADAR5, Coming from a personal viewpoint, the Sikhi that I interpret is self-effacing, down to earth and humble. Personally I don't know if we really need to shout from the rooftops about how great and wonderful some indivduals are. As the saying goes 'actions speak louder than words.' ghat ghat kai antar ki jant. bhlai burai ki pir pachant. chiti tai kunchr asthoola. sabh par kirpa diristi kar phoola. (11) Intimate Knower of all our feelings recognises the intentions of all creatures, good or bad. From ant to elephant, He protects and cares for all.(11) (Chaupai Sahib) There comes a point in time when awards in lavish venues just get brushed off as an ego puffing exercise. If your intentions were to genuinely give recognition to these "Sikhs" then perhaps change the venue to a Gurdwara where the mahan sirapo be offered to these "Sikhs" in front of the very Guru and Sangat who gave them the blessings to be successful in the first place. I am sorry but I could not connect the nimrata of Sikhi with this type of Award ceremony. I just didn't get it and please don't take it personal to your event management prowess.

For those of us who love self glorification in expensive halls, please see a link to pictures from this "Sikh" awards ceremony. Watching the sewa that GurSikhs like Khalsa Aid and other Mahapursh's do for the poor, in my opinion I don't see what benefit a poncy award ceremony like this in a lavish setting provides to the kaum. The money spent could have been put to better use..... http://www.eastwestp...+ceremony+12943

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/18752-hukamnamas-sandeshs-and-important-sikh-documents/page__view__findpost__p__166180

English Translation of part of the Sikh's daily Ardas. "Think of remember the service of the brave Sikhs, who sacrificed their heads but did not surrender their Sikhi, Who got themselves cut to pieces from the joints of their body, who got their scalps removed, Who were tied and rotated on the spiked wheels and were crashed into pieces, who were cut by saws, who were flayed alive, Who sacrificed themselves to upkeep the dignity of the gurdwaras, And who did not abandon their sikhi, who kept their hair until their last breath! Khalsa Ji, Utter Waheguru!" Let us reflect upon our great predecessors and learn from their amazing actions the importance of keeping the dignity of the Gurdwaras. Today we are in times where the sanctity of some Gurdwaras are once again being polluted by Manmukh Committees who have taken management and control of our Gurdwaras and openly allow the sacred periphery of the Gurdwara to be associated with party halls where alcohol, meat and smoking are served.