Only five

Confusingh, I hear your pain. Naam Jaapna and contemplating of Gurbani should be treated equally, with more stress on Naam Jaapna. You should really speak with the committe. Maybe for a week or two they are just having people recite. To memorize nitem is a great thing. You can recite Bani whenever and where ever you are. I wish I had the nitnem memorized. The committee is doing a great thing with getting people to memorize. Wheelchair wheels should be cleaned and the bottom of canes cleaned aswell. And if the person can't do it themselves then they should ask someone, people will be glad to help; it's seva. When you go to the Gurdwara make sure you're clean from the outside and from the inside. Don't walk in there <Edited> off and not taking your shoes and socks off, then your just asking for shither. To not allow a person in a wheelchair to sit in the sangat once the wheels are clean is the biggest paap in the world in my opinion. It takes alot for these guys to come out of the house and to deny him of sangat and Guru's darshan once hes made the effort is indescribably wrong. Confusingh, speak with the committee if they allow no wheelchaired people or caned to sit in Guru's presents. If this comittee is doing this then they got some screws lose. Don't storm in there asking for answer, its not the way to do it. Let them answer why they don't and give them a solution to resolve this issue like clean the wheels. If they still don't listen then ask a couple of Gursikh to speak with them. The separation of the Panth is causing many problems, let's just hope we don't turn into Christian and have different sect's of Sikhi.

Dead on P kaur, you went right to the point, no floating around. Thanks

you have written a good post here but when you wrote One Bhen ji wrote that she feels insecure, that other's are looking at her without make up. To my understanding I believe you are looking for other peoples approval here. The only approval we should be looking for is of our Guru; Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Paying attention to what the public feels will drive you nuttz. To accept the way God made you takes courage and this courage to accept is developed by reciting Gurbani. Ciontemplate over the Shabad Guru and this insecurity will depart. i dont really think its fair. i mean she says that she feels insecure which is going to happen and if a bit of foundation is worn to just cover it up then that is not a bad thing, as long as it does not turn into something where you were it to attract males. i am very conscious about the spots and things on my face and hate it when people stare at me because of it and ask me stupid questions about it. i am a male and i also have that problem. but yh i dont wear make up obviously its not that the bhenji above is asking for an aproval from those who look at her but it makes you feel so terrible when you know people are looking at you because spots and things make you look less attractive but dont get me wrong, i like your post sorry if i have offended anyone Thanks for giving your take on this. It's much appreciated. What i was trying to do was define that layer of make up, even if it is a small amount applied. What does that small amount of make up mean. And as Bhenji said it boasted her confidents, and gave her the hope that no one is looking at her now. What i said at the end of my last post i defined as false confidents. And as i see it Bhenji has false confident with that make up on. The best thing to do is read Gurbani and attain pure true confidents that will go with us at the end. Otherwise we create an illusion for ourselves and we get stuck in worldly attachments. Also with the approval bit, i was saying that with the make up on she has acheived the approval of the people around her. (it's the unspoken approval I am talking about.) In certain society's you have to act, dress, and look a certain wayto be approved to meat the norm of that society. If you don't then people look at you a different way or don't want to associate with you. I feel bhenji was looking for this aproval and found it through wearing make up. I know from experience, I am a unibrow SIngh and hair on the cheek bones, I could just hear all the laughs now. But I have accepted that's who I am and am confident in my look. Yeah society might see me as a person who is out of date, but I accept the way God has made me and I am proud of it. It wasn't always like this, but after reading Gurbani I was able to attain this confidents and acceptance.

This sounds fishy. Why has the teacher only noticed the Kirpan now during the exam. What about when these Amritdharis were sitting in class learning, didn't any teacher notice the Kirpan then. This just doesn't sit right in my stomach. Something really fishy is going on here.

Why do some get so hostile when their way of thinking is challenged and then they have no arguement. Discussing is not about winning or losing, its about attaining more knowledge to better yourself. One Bhen ji wrote that she feels insecure, that other's are looking at her without make up. To my understanding I believe you are looking for other peoples approval here. The only approval we should be looking for is of our Guru; Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Paying attention to what the public feels will drive you nuttz. To accept the way God made you takes courage and this courage to accept is developed by reciting Gurbani. Ciontemplate over the Shabad Guru and this insecurity will depart. GuruFateh, No one is targeting women here and if people are then its really wrong. Guys are no different when it comes to make up and jewellery. If you want to discuss the guys have with materialism then it's a good idea to start another topic. 2. I didn't make this point, but just to speak on it. Wearing make up and jewellery probably isn't as bad, but when you do it shows you lack self confidents and you need these things to boast yourself up. Be confident in how God made you and don't worry about what people think its a waste of time. 3. Yes, i agree with you listen to what the Panj Pyare will say or have said to you. When i took Amrit, jewellery and make up were forbidden to be worn. As i didn't understand the why then, but when i started reading, understanding Gurbani the why was discovered. This bring us to the point that guys like to gel or whatever product you use to straighten out your beard so it stuck to your face. To apply a product to keep the hair healthy is one thing. But if your straigthen your beard out on the side of your face so its stuck to your face is about insecurity and an illusion. Let the hair grow freely and openly. The point made about some amritdhari women wear dastaar and some don't is a completely different topic. There could be some insecurity lashed on to this topic aswell, but this has nothing to do with this topic. The way I see it is about insecurity, illusions, worldly attachments and false confidents. Build your confident with Gurbani because that's the only thing that will go with you at the end. All this jewellery, make up, designer cloth are a waste of breath and time which take you no where. SIkhs it's your choice do as you wish, but listen to Gurbani and the Panj Pyare

IN ANAND SAHIB GURU SAHIB SPEAKS ABOUT FOLLOWING THESE FAKE GURU'S AND TELLS YOU THAT LIBERATION IS NOT ACHIEVED. jy ko isKu gurU syqI snmuKu hovY ] jae ko sikh guroo saethee sanamukh hovai || If a Sikh turns to the Guru with sincere faith, as sunmukh hovY q snmuKu isKu koeI jIAhu rhY gur nwly ] hovai th sanamukh sikh koee jeeahu rehai gur naalae || if a Sikh turns to the Guru with sincere faith, as sunmukh, his soul abides with the Guru. gur ky crn ihrdY iDAwey AMqr AwqmY smwly ] gur kae charan hiradhai dhhiaaeae a(n)thar aathamai samaalae || Within his heart, he meditates on the lotus feet of the Guru; deep within his soul, he contemplates Him. Awpu Cif sdw rhY prxY gur ibnu Avru n jwxY koey ] aap shhadd sadhaa rehai paranai gur bin avar n jaanai koeae || Renouncing selfishness and conceit, he remains always on the side of the Guru; he does not know anyone except the Guru. khY nwnku suxhu sMqhu so isKu snmuKu hoey ]21] kehai naanak sunahu sa(n)thahu so sikh sanamukh hoeae ||21|| Says Nanak, listen, O Saints: such a Sikh turns toward the Guru with sincere faith, and becomes sunmukh. ||21|| jy ko gur qy vymuKu hovY ibnu siqgur mukiq n pwvY ] jae ko gur thae vaemukh hovai bin sathigur mukath n paavai || One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation. pwvY mukiq n hor QY koeI puChu ibbykIAw jwey ] paavai mukath n hor thhai koee pushhahu bibaekeeaa jaaeae || He shall not find liberation anywhere else either; go and ask the wise ones about this. Anyk jUnI Brim AwvY ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ] anaek joonee bharam aavai vin sathigur mukath n paaeae || He shall wander through countless incarnations; without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation. iPir mukiq pwey lwig crxI siqgurU sbdu suxwey ] fir mukath paaeae laag charanee sathiguroo sabadh sunaaeae || But liberation is attained, when one is attached to the feet of the True Guru, chanting the Word of the Shabad. khY nwnku vIcwir dyKhu ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ]22] kehai naanak veechaar dhaekhahu vin sathigur mukath n paaeae ||22|| Says Nanak, contemplate this and see, that without the True Guru, there is no liberation. ||22|| Awvhu isK siqgurU ky ipAwirho gwvhu scI bwxI ] aavahu sikh sathiguroo kae piaariho gaavahu sachee baanee || Come, O beloved Sikhs of the True Guru, and sing the True Word of His Bani. bwxI q gwvhu gurU kyrI bwxIAw isir bwxI ] baanee th gaavahu guroo kaeree baaneeaa sir baanee || Sing the Guru's Bani, the supreme Word of Words. ijn kau ndir krmu hovY ihrdY iqnw smwxI ] jin ko nadhar karam hovai hiradhai thinaa samaanee || Those who are blessed by the Lord's Glance of Grace - their hearts are imbued with this Bani. pIvhu AMimRqu sdw rhhu hir rMig jiphu swirgpwxI ] peevahu a(n)mrith sadhaa rehahu har ra(n)g japihu saarigapaanee || Drink in this Ambrosial Nectar, and remain in the Lord's Love forever; meditate on the Lord, the Sustainer of the world. khY nwnku sdw gwvhu eyh scI bwxI ]23] kehai naanak sadhaa gaavahu eaeh sachee baanee ||23|| Says Nanak, sing this True Bani forever. ||23|| siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ] sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ] baanee th kachee sathiguroo baajhahu hor kachee baanee || The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false. khdy kcy suxdy kcy kcNØI AwiK vKwxI ] kehadhae kachae sunadhae kachae kacha(n)aee aakh vakhaanee || The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false. hir hir inq krih rsnw kihAw kCU n jwxI ] har har nith karehi rasanaa kehiaa kashhoo n jaanee || They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying. icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ] chith jin kaa hir laeiaa maaeiaa bolan peae ravaanee || Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically. khY nwnku siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]24] kehai naanak sathiguroo baajhahu hor kachee baanee ||24|| Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24|| gur kw sbdu rqMnu hY hIry ijqu jVwau ] gur kaa sabadh ratha(n)n hai heerae jith jarraao || The Word of the Guru's Shabad is a jewel, studded with diamonds. sbdu rqnu ijqu mMnu lwgw eyhu hoAw smwau ] sabadh rathan jith ma(n)n laagaa eaehu hoaa samaao || The mind which is attached to this jewel, merges into the Shabad. sbd syqI mnu imilAw scY lwieAw Bwau ] sabadh saethee man miliaa sachai laaeiaa bhaao || One whose mind is attuned to the Shabad, enshrines love for the True Lord. Awpy hIrw rqnu Awpy ijs no dyie buJwie ] aapae heeraa rathan aapae jis no dhaee bujhaae || He Himself is the diamond, and He Himself is the jewel; one who is blessed, understands its value. khY nwnku sbdu rqnu hY hIrw ijqu jVwau ]25] kehai naanak sabadh rathan hai heeraa jith jarraao ||25|| Says Nanak, the Shabad is a jewel, studded with diamonds. ||25|| ang sung 920 Don't be fooled by these Namdharis they are misleading many people. If you want to read this whole shabad then it starts on ang sung 919. These fake Guru's are cause much heart ache in India by giving people false hope, don't support their decieving ways.

Namdharis are not apart of Sikhi and their kathavachiks must not be in Gurdwara's doing katha or doing katha under Sikhi. The fact is they believe in this Ram Singh as their Guru and this defies Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Guru. This cult has taken their own root and have no part in Sikhi. For the Sikh channel to play a Namdharis kathavachik is completely wrong. This guy when speaking about Guru is talking about this Ram Singh guy and not Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This confuses alot of people and puts them on the wrong track. He will say the Guru said this and confuse people that it is said in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, when it's NOT. Guru Nanak Dev ji son went his own way did Guru Nanak Dev ji get him to carry on Sikhi. NO! Follow in Guru Nanak Dev ji's foot steps and let these cults do their own thing and don't let them tell us about Sikhi. We don't need Ram Singh people preaching to us. We have the Greatest Guru; Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the Khalsa Panth to lead us-the way Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji said. Let's obey the Hukam and pray for the Panth. Namdharis, if you find this offensive, well then the Truth sometime stings.

:vaheguru: Great post Singh

I wish you would have read my post one more time, then maybe you would have not misintrerpreted it. Make up shouldn't been worn because it alters the face and creates the illusion the person look's 'nicer'. A person is percieved to look 'nicer' with it on, but really that's not them. This makes the person insecure about their looks and worse they are stuck in illusions. There is a reason why people wear make up and this reason is due to insecurity and/or worldly attachments. Read Jap ji Sahib more closely on ang 4, and anything a person does affect the soul positively or negatively. In this case it's neatively. It's easy to destroy the soul, but to mend it-it takes a life time.

Thanks for replying Harjeet, you make a compelling case. A person wearing cloth doesn't alter the body. It just covers it up. Make up on the other hand does alter it. It makes the skin look 'nicer' than it was without.(insecrity) Also if make up was put on for modesty then why do people remove it at night, going to sleep and only wear it during the day when they go out? Same with jewellery, people only wear it when going out not at night when they are going to bed. Also you don't wear jewellery to cover up. Lastly if make up is put on for modesty then that would make a person's face immodest without make up on. So that would make God's given look's immodest, and what the human precieves as with make up on as modest. Your playing with fire here Harjeet. Something to ponder over!!!!

If your insecure about your look's and you need make up to feel better about yourself, you got a deeper problem than just materialism. It's funny on one side majority amritdharis say accept the way God made you, but then they slap on make up with the other hand. Hiding your God given looks is a no no; accept it. Jewellry is good as dust. Once again its the insecurity in a person that brings this on. Guru Gobind Singh already gave us the five diamonds that he wanted us to have. Come one Amritdharis you should know better, illusions are only going to hinder you spiritually.

I was going through there collection and they have t-shirts that have just Sikh written on them. Wouldn't it be funny if a amritdhari was wearing one of these t-shirts with a dastaar on. Now picture a person with a hair cut wearing one with Sikh on the t-shirt, now that's funny :lol: :lol: :lol:

Read Sukhmani Sahib or listen to it as many times you can a day.

Singh You're being hostile here for no reason. The starter of this thread and ak47 jatha are just pointing out every suspect in this crime. They showed the motives that the committee might have and the motives the gang might have. It's good to cover all theory's and rule out the people that don't fit the profile. So far as a law student, the committee here looks guilty. They reap the monetary benefits from the Gurdwara being burnt. Look at the motives here and look at what some are doing to cover there tracks. For the pardhon to say my daughter was kidnapped, when she wasn't, is a way to say I am a victim here aswell. Whether his daughter was taken or not I am not sure of, just thinking of the motives why he would make such a claim. And if his daughter was taken then, it's good to look at why. Maybe the pardhon knows something that others don't want him to disclose. It's a good way to keep someone from telling key information to this case. The sangat of UK please don't act on theory's or just speculation's. Make sure you have 100% proof and make sure the person providing or giving a testimony are reliable.

nw hm ihMdU n muslmwn ] Alh rwm ky ipMfu prwn ]4] naa ham hi(n)dhoo n musalamaan || aleh raam kae pi(n)dd paraan ||4| I am not Hindu or Muslim. My body and breath of life belong to Allah. This shabad was spoken by bhagat kabeer ji. And it does not include Sikhs as you said. If you would like to see the reason why then just replace where the shabad speaks about hindu and muslim practices and put in Sikh practices. Also define what a Sikh is. It'll come clear who Bhagat Kabeer ji is speaking too.

True Sikh does mean student, but the student of Guru ji who is true. :whs: But the Christian s blind and the Muslim only has one eye Guru ji has spoken on this and he says believing in God is number one. Without it people lose there lives in duality even though they practice charity serve humanity and live honestly. Don't bite my head off now, not my words just stating what Guru ji has said. Their getting closer, but still got to go that extra mile and become Khalsa. I wouldn't put simply, sounds to restricted then. Sikhi is hard to describe. Sikhi is what you want to become and then you become a Sikh. I practice Sikhi, but do I pracitce it completely not yet, So would I call myself a Sikh? No, but I still follow Guru ji. FOURTH MEHL: The sublime state of the True Guru is not known; no one knows what pleases the Perfect True Guru. Deep within the hearts of His GurSikhs, the True Guru is pervading. The Guru is pleased with those who long for His Sikhs. As the True Guru directs them, they do their work and chant their prayers. The True Lord accepts the service of His GurSikhs. But those who want the GurSikhs to work for them, without the Order of the True Guru . the Guru.s Sikhs shall not come near them again. One who works diligently for the Guru, the True Guru . the GurSikhs work for him. One who comes to deceive, who rises up and goes out to deceive . the GurSikhs shall never come near him. Nanak proclaims and announces this wisdom of God. One who is not pleasing to the Mind of the True Guru may do his deeds, but that being will only suffer in terrible pain. || 2 || ang 317 FIFTH MEHL: The ghost has been transformed into an angel by the Creator Lord. God has emancipated all the Sikhs and resolved their affairs. He has seized the slanderers and thrown them to the ground, and declared them false in His Court. Nanak.s God is glorious and great; He Himself creates and adorns. || 2 || ang 323

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA Thats just cruel, but funny lol

Read Japji Sahib once with full concentration 3 in the morning and everything will be answered. Don't pay attention to public opinion; whenever you have a question just take a Hukam from Guru ji and your question will be answered. Everyone is on a different level of spirituality and to what makes sense to them is not always the right answer. Do paath from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and read Bhai Gurdaas ji's vaars, whatever you do, don't pay attention to public opinion. This is how i started off, only consulted Guru ji. The more you pay attention to public opinion the more losted you will be because one person will tug you one way and another the other way. Stay away from discussion sites unless you feel comfortable stepping on broken glass.

For her to have an abortion is wrong by Sikhi. She messed up and if she thinks this child is a mistake then she don't know the value of life. If she was a rape victim or some other case it would be a different stand in Sikhi, but for her case, for fools like her there is no place for abortion. What one sow is what one reaps

Bhai Sahib, I have a question for you. What is the difference between Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji? why do you ask me this question if you know the answer? or should i say how do you know the difference? i know what i think, is there a point of writing a long arguement over this? NO it still stick to my answer i gave before. as a sikh with kesh i feel very sadden that mona sikh get discriminated by these taliban thinking sikhs who have no gyian in them also you have no right to decide whos sikh and whos not. Because you didn't answer the question. And your whole claims are based on that Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't ask his Sikh followers to keep hair and weapons to be considered a Sikh and Guru Gobind Singh sahib ji did. Here's your logic at work. Why do you add Singh at the end of your name? Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't ask his Sikh followers to add Singh to their name to be considered a Sikh. Not discriminating against anyone, if anything your the one judging people. For the last time its called defining what makes a person a Sikh.

when someone says this Guru said this and that one didn't say it. I get a cramp in the back of my neck and I can't refrain from telling the Truth. I asked you a simple question to show that your statement is flawed and you couldn't see the light in it. You proceeded with your statement again probably for the sake of not being proven wrong (which has ego written allover it) or you just didn't know the answer or like i said clever tricks. Whatever the case the Truth is out and the cramp is gone. :D no nothing to do with flaw in my statment, i didnt want to argue with you. anyway you were sitting with guru nanak or did he tell you who is considered a sikh? what about the people who didnt keep kesh in those times? they werent consider sikh by guru nanak? people like you and spgc would like a make rules saying that mona's arent sikhs bend the rules to ur will and what you find suitable? Who said we were arguing! How old are you, what's with these baby remarks. What about the people that drink in those times? they weren't considered Sikhs by Guru Nanak Dev ji?????? Give it a rest man, you have nothing to support your claims. Everything points to a Sikh is with uncut hair. People like me don't have to make rules they are already set by the Gurus, when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said, and I have repeated this enough, A Sikh must keep hair, he meant a Sikh must keep hair.

when someone says this Guru said this and that one didn't say it. I get a cramp in the back of my neck and I can't refrain from telling the Truth. I asked you a simple question to show that your statement is flawed and you couldn't see the light in it. You proceeded with your statement again probably for the sake of not being proven wrong (which has ego written allover it) or you just didn't know the answer or like i said clever tricks. Whatever the case the Truth is out and the cramp is gone. :D

I think Guru Gobind Singh said that only to people who wanted to become khalsa and his singhs. Before that we were Guru Nanak sikhs. whats the difference between Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji? my point was Guru Gobind Singh said you must have hair and weapons if you wanted to become khalsa, but Guru Nanak didnt ask his sikh followers to keep hair and weapons to be considered a sikh. First off, the above is just an assumption by you. Just because there is not a written account of the above doesn't mean Guru Nanak Dev ji did not say it as Guru Nanak Dev ji. By the same logic you use, everything will point to Guru Nanak Dev ji would have said it. Your point leads no where and proves nothing, because there is no difference between Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said a Sikh must keep hair and Guru Nanak Dev ji, guess what he said, hence one jyot a Sikh must keep hair. I could have put Guru Hargobind Sahib ji in the above sentence and it wouldn't make a difference because we are still talking about the same one Guru. Parm Singh keep your clever tricks to yourself.

I think Guru Gobind Singh said that only to people who wanted to become khalsa and his singhs. Before that we were Guru Nanak sikhs. whats the difference between Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji?

whoa, that's some seriously scientific and accurate conclusions going on... Since we don't know which of the respondents are monay and which aren't, you're implying that just cuz 1 mona veer said he doesn't call himself a sikh, that you can "CONCLUDE" (which is usually a term used to state a final opinion or perspective) that monay don't class themselves as sikhs.. what about the numerous keshdharis and amritdharis that DO classify monay as sikhs.... are their opinions not worth as much because it doesn't come "from the horse's mouth", so to speak? I'm sure you didn't intend to make a blanket statement, but always do keep in mind when younger kids come on and see strong statements, they're likely to believe them, because dramatic and exaggerated statements are always funner to read and believe. The 'horse's mouth' is this how you talk to your mother. And i'm not saying this as a joke. When it comes to defining a Sikh all feelings and opinions are put DEEP in the pockets, where they just can't jump up, and catch you off guard. Opinions are just as useless in this discussion as your ability to be a jackal. Don't worry about the youngster's your horse's mouth comment is brilliant.