sunnyji

You seem to ignore everything else I write about the Gurus' teachings of equality across humanity and that God looks beyond religion (one of the key principles that Guru Nanak always taught), I'm trying to analyze the Guru's philosophy here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but comes from living a good, honest, selfless life of devotion to Waheguru, charity, hard honest work etc. Of course, taking Amrit is something that every Sikh should strive towards, but what if someone fulfilled all those requirements in their life without having physically taken Amrit? ?

Yeah, that's my understanding too The Gurus were supremely enlightened people, who were completely connected to God, but they were not "incarnations" of God as some people say. Okay, well do you agree with what I said? About naam simran only having an effect if you do it with good intentions rather than malicious/selfish intentions? That's what I was trying to get at.

Never heard of that one before. Could you provide me with a reference to that? Seems at odds with the story of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Bhai Lalo and Malik Bhago. Like I said, Guru Nanak's philosophy was that of total equality: God is beyond looking at us with religious labels, God isn't a "person" who sees us like that. I'm not saying Amrit isn't an excellent thing to take, and a fantastic live to strive towards living.

Could you provide me with any quotes or information on this? I know Guru Granth Sahib Ji doesn't mention the kakaars at all (since Guru Gobind Singh Ji's work was never included), but is there anywhere in Dasam Granth which actually references the kakaars?

I think you misunderstood the point of his post, he was saying that by repeating something blindly with no good faith or intentions, you won't get anywhere. Nothing wrong with rituals, as long as they're not blind; they should serve a purpose, i.e. to better oneself, help the panth, and improve society.

True, although I guess it can equally be called panentheism as it can monotheism - panentheism due to the immanent nature of Waheguru existing as the Universe and beyond; monotheistic due to the singular nature of Waheguru. Not sure if the two terms are mutually exclusive in any way.

The phrase "speak for yourself" is usually used in a condascending manner, but I guess I just misunderstood you, sorry

What do you mean by that? Just seems slightly rude if I'm honest. Agreed, that's essentially the point I was trying to make earlier, that just doing the action won't get you anywhere, you've gotta do it with conviction and meaning.

I wouldn't say so, I've mostly seen it called monotheistic by Sikh authors. I can see why panentheism does describe it well; however, the point about "transcendence" is merely a Christian viewpoint of monotheism. According to wikipedia, there's a subdivision of monotheism called "monism" which is the view that everything is part of a single reality/substance/truth - I think this describes Sikhi quite well, monistic monotheism: the Ik Onkar, Akaal, Waheguru, whatever you want to call him. In fact, again according to Wikipedia, pantheism and panentheism are branches of monism (which itself is a branch of monotheism). I shall have to read into this stuff more, it's all very interesting

Wow, why is everyone so judgemental nowadays? I was simply providing an explanation for what I thought veerji meant. There's no need to make insulting, defamatory assumptions about people.

I've always described Sikhi as monotheistic (as do the majority of scholars, books etc), partly due to "Ik" in "Ik Onkar", the stress of "One" God. I can see why it may be viewed as pantheistic, due to the qualities of Waheguru as being the Universe itself and all matter within it, but I still think Sikhi being described as monotheistic is more accurate, since Waheguru is EVERYTHING we can and can't comprehend, everything that does and doesn't exist - ultimate Oneness. Whether or not the Universe ends, therefore, doesn't even matter, since Waheguru is beyond even this.

I don't think hsingh68 veerji meant don't do it. He meant don't do it just for the sake of doing it - nowadays, a lot of people do naam simran or paath just because they're told to, whereas people should do it because they want to do it and want to understand it/

I totally disagree with you on that, by saying "Sache patshah wants only amritdharis" you're going against one of Guru Nanak's most profound teachings. Naa koi Hindu, naa koi Musalman. God isn't a "man in the sky" who's interested in religious labels. God is within each and every one of us, and it's up to us to take the Guru's advice to discover Waheguru's wonder through meditation, hard work, honest living, truth and serving humanity.

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Yeah, and also a total lack of education - we do so little to educate our youth on Sikhi nowadays, compared to the other major world religions.

Totally agreed veerji, many Singhs I know follow a "system" of rules which they feel they need to abide by to progress to the next stage - I've been told so many times that I should do X amount of Japji Sahibs to achieve this, or Y amount to achieve that. It's a shame that this sort of mentality is so widespread

When I read passages about the Guru "being" God, I believe that means the Gurus have the light of God. Equally, so do we all, as God is everything and pervades all matter and the universe, but the Gurus were on such a high spiritual enlightenment and had such a deep connection with Waheguru that they could guide the rest of us. It's a very deep, complex issue, but I personally don't like to say the Gurus "are" God, because then people take that to mean Gurus are incarnations of God, and that limits perception of the almighty to just one physical entity. That's a concept which Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected - God does not come down to Earth as incarnations (Ram, Krishna etc), but we are all part of God.

I disagree with you on this point. The Guru is my guide, my teacher, to help me try to understand Waheguru. The light of Waheguru shines through our Guru, but I do not worship Guru Ji, I worship Waheguru - Guru Nanak strictly condemned worship of anything other than the formless Almighty. That's my view anyway.

Please don't make up stuff without any scientific proof. Lucid dreams are a perfectly normal phenomenon, no health risks (or benefits for that matter) have ever been reported. They can't kill you, they can't become addictive.

Yeah exactly, there's no other way to tie it lol...I think trying to find another way to tie the same pagh just to avoid putting it in your mouth initially is a bit unnecessary

Who knows eh There's enough historical evidence to show that Jesus existed, but a lot of "facts" about him are disputed, his date of birth being just one example. Interesting subject anyway...if I wasn't studying medicine, I'd love to study the history of religions! Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

I was reading around on the net, and according to historians, Jesus was most likely actually born the year 8BC...so if our year system is based on his birth, it should really be the year 2021 right now haha :biggrin2:

Are you sure about that? Anecdotal evidence - my great-great grandfather was made a Sikh by his parents (Hindus), he was their eldest child. I don't know much more about it than that though, it's quite an interesting topic, gonna Google around and see if I can find out more info on it.

I'm from Leicester which is a heavily Asian area and I've always felt comfortable there. Now I'm studying medicine in London, and I was initially apprehensive, but it's amazing how much diversity there is here, and how accepting people are! Haven't once felt threatened or intimidated, it's great here, haven't experienced any racism - and everyone I meet knows I'm a Sikh and who Sikhs are! I wish people were more accepting in other areas of the UK - I've had strange looks when I've visited areas which are more "white". I guess it's just down to not enough education about other faiths - I was taught about Sikhi back in RE at school, but I'm sure in many schools in the UK (esp. faith schools) they don't teach Sikhi.

Nope, sorry to disappoint you, I did read it. I totally agree