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I think the shooting was disgraceful. We as Sikhs in the present climate need to look at a peaceful process to resolve issues. By killing an innocent person is not a solution. These sects you are mentioning, with their Babays and so on, my friend they are on the increase. By you writing this post does not help the cause. Just for one minute use your brain that God has given you. May be, some time in the future something might just click. You may realise violence is not the solution.

So you want another reason *evil laugh*.........just did a google......read the whole page and then tell me how many reasons you spotted....... http://www.sikhiwiki...ndex.php/Kirpan Not to mention this is only one link, I could be throwing a hell of alot more pages to satisfy your need for reasons. Define Ritualistic........please do....If you cannot....I will myself. Interesting. Was this (in bold) supposed to be a question? or a statement? If you have answered any of the questions above, please justify your reason. Let alone the other points you made......this point of yours has prompted me to question you.....this point of yours alone has got me thinking.....hmmmmm. Define Ritualistic........please do....If you cannot....I will myself. Go ahead my friend. Define to your hearts content.

"Do you actually know the purpose of the Kirpan, other then a tool for self defence??" No sorry, can you enlighten me please? It's about surrendering our minds to the Guru's will. This surrender is the true essence of our path. Look at historical sakhis, it is those Sikhs who had the kirpa to surrender who progressed the most. Those who reject Amrit, and the required kakkars, fail at the first step. I find Yuktanand Singh ji's posts to be quite illuminating, reflecting a very deep understanding of Gurbani: Explanation of Sikh dharm I recommend everyone read these, as they contain exceptional knowledge for prachaar. But my brother what are you going to surrender by wearing a kirpan. Can’t you achieve that by not wearing it? It goes back to my original question, is this not same as wearing the thread of the Brahmans? If Kirpan has no practicality in the modern world, then it’s another ritual object. As Sikhs aren’t we suppose to move away from rituals.

If a Kirpan has some other meaning? Please explain. It sounds very much like the Brahmans and there thread (Jaanou). Why don't you search this site for the answer? You ask why Kirpan, but you made it clear already, that you won't accept any facts presented. Also you show no sincerity on finding out why. So here i'll have this back and forth debate with you. Tell us, what kind of evidence you want be to present that will make it clear for you that Kirpan is not like the Jaanuo, not outdated, and it mus be worn. Sorry if I seem ignorant but I haven’t made anything clear, I’m just asking for another reason for the Kirpan, if not as a weapon. What else could be the reason? It sound's ritualistic; to wear something that has no purpose in the modern environment. All I’m asking is for an explanation. Can any one send me a link or give me a clear answer? People I’m asking you a question, there seems to be some sort of hostility towards answering it. Guru fetahy

If a Kirpan has some other meaning? Please explain. It sounds very much like the Brahmans and there thread (Jaanou).

"Do you actually know the purpose of the Kirpan, other then a tool for self defence??" No sorry, can you enlighten me please?

Why do we (SIKHS) in the modern age need to wear a kirpan? We say, the Sikh Faith is compatible with all time lines, but by reading the article and some of the quotes. It clearly indicates we are stuck 300 years in the past. Does a student in a school, really need to wear a kirpan? I completely understand the outlook from the staff at the school, the dangers of the weapon being used, not by the young Sikh student, but by other students. The Modern age we live in, knife crime is on the rise, especially in the larger cities. Schools are using limitless resource to stop knife crime and make schools a safe environment. Don't you think we should be helping them to attain this? I apologise if I have offended any one.

This painting dosent show anything. It's just a painting of a Nihung Singh. where are the 5k's in the painting????

This site is brillant. Well done and God bless Gure fethay

Typical, this is not new news in Gurdwara.

Because they are not Sikhs, they are Pathans (Muslims) or could even be Hindhu Rajputs. It wasn't only the Sikhs who wore turbans in the World Wars.

My brother you have hit the nail on the head.

Are other cultures logical? Is the wearing of a necktie logical? Is it based on some sort of philosophical analysis? And the wearing of skirts in dead cold winter? Is that also logical? Is your mother better than anybody else's mother? Maybe, maybe not. Do you still love her? If so, why wouldn't you want people to love their mother tongue? Zameen means land, not floor. Floor is farsh in Punjabi. People have a love for their land, not for their floors, whether they be marble, granite, harwood, or tile. Do you also apply the same standard to the American song "The home of the free, the *land* of the brave?" "From sea to shining sea" "Over amber waves of grain"? That's all OK, but it bugs you when a Punjabi sings about the green fields of his motherland? You have got to be kidding. Do you apply the same standard to the country in which you live (US, Canada, UK, whatever) or just to Punjab? When your teacher teaches about George Washington, Churchill, the Greek gods, or whatever, do you also counter with "Who cares"? Well said. I completely agree with you. Fordcapri, Punjab is a very special land, mix of different cultures and races to form a Punjabi. We will have to look back into history to find out who are the Punjabis? Punjabis are a mix of different races, Russians, Persians, Greeks and many more. These people have truly loved God, they have infused with God through only love e.g. Baba Farhid, Baba Bullah Shah, our Guru's and then there are great lovers of Punjab, Heer Ranja, Soni Mahwal, many more. There are many different accounts of the blessed land of Punjab and its people, it will take me 7 to 8 posts to just to touch the surface. I do understand when people speak ill of Punjab and Punjabi culture. If people have not lived in Punjab or not been given any knowledge about the blessed land, then what are you going to say? You will only speak ill of it. Last thing I should point out, the Dharam you and I follow (SIKH), was it not found in Punjab? The Language Guru Granth Sahib is written in, is it not Punjabi? Or is it English? You tell me.

This article is well written. Some very interesting points. Well done.

You sure? I have seen advertisement for this camp and application forms, which you can print off from the net. Correct me if I have been mistaken.

Could someone give any info about this camp, I have heard, it's a fantastic camp to go to. Is this correct? Anyone attending this camp? Guru Fetahy

You make out as though 'Man in pugri' potecting alcohol and ciggerets are meant to encourage Bir Rass in the Naujwaan and fester some from of Sikh pride or promote Sikh bottle-fighting skills. So when does defending a stock of alcohol and tabocco warrant a saropa from the Panth or a mention that Sikhs are 'brave'....Last time I checked they were Bujar Kurehits along with kes katal and adultry. Wonder how you'd feel if the man was pimping as Maharaj's puts the consumption of alcohol and tabocco along with extra-martial relationships/visiting prostitutes....but hey...this is pardes and people need to 'earn' a living/ And then what, had the 'Man in Pugri' died in the process would we have made him a panthic Shaheed and put his picture in the langar hall..? I can show you dozens of fist fights between Uncles at Jatt/Punjabi wedding receptions usually out of some stupid misunderstanding and over indulgence of alcohol. The alcohol which our gracious off-licence heroes provide to them. Mala You need to come to reality, they have done brilliantly. The two examples are great, of how to fend someone off in a sign of trouble. They were going on their gut instinct and they came of better. This rubbish about alcohol and cigarettes, it's his job, that's how he makes his living. You need to get out of your fairy tale land, perhaps take some beats, so it brings you to the real world.

Inter-religious marriages is BIG no ONLY if the couple wants religion to play the main role in their life. I Agree.

All this stupiedity started when Hindus started making their first son Sikh . These types of Sikhs then married their daughters to hindus and slowly this become acceptable. Nowdays problem is worst i have seen Sikh girls openly saying we dont like facial hairs so they prefera Hindu mate . We have to stop celebrating Hindu festivals like Lohri , Holy and Rakhri . Tell our kids what Hindus have done to us and they are doing, tell them about 1984 and Punjabi Suba problems . Its duty to inform our kids about our struggles and who were responsible for that . And to all who r sending me PMs I am not a Hindu hater but i am nota Gandhiwadi too . I am Sikh ,if i get attacked i will hit back hard . Sikho kuch ta sikho kado tak Hindua da zulam chahloge. A question? What did the Hindus do to the Sikhs in 1984? I've read many books and read reports. I think the finger pointing goes to the Indian Government at that time. I think the problem lies in with in the Sikh community. Like I have mentioned in my previous post, young Sikh in the west do not have a clue of what the Sikh Dharma is about (the replies form Mehtab Singh and humkire). You guys speak about spirituality, but you guys haven’t even tasted the flavour, how do you know the taste.

Mehtab Singh, You have quoted the following, "Now please try to cross over a river with each of your foot in a separate boat. Unless you know swimming, you know what is going to happen, right?" You have to understand what im trying to explain. Your response is completely justified and it's a good point, but you have to understand that you would have to break out of your religious shekels. Spirituality and Religion can never run parallel, where religion ends spirituality starts. You may call me a hippy but to achieve enlightenment, you need to have prem (love). The only way you may love, is to break out of any duality, breaking out of recognised differences between a Human being, may it be colour, religion or caste. You can not achieve this through religion, because you still see differences in a Human beings. Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj, gave us (Sikhs) a great Dharma, Maharaj had already given us a head start on way to spiritual enlightenment. The philosophy of Sikh dharma was totally based on no duality and there was no religion just a focus on the spiritual plain. But we as human beings have gone to great lengths to give a unique identity and a box. Based on my opinion, Guru Granth Sahaib Maharaj is great spiritual teacher, but cannot be used as a Guru in any religious form, because Sikh was never a religion but a root to spiritual enlightenment. Guru Fetahy

I see no issue with Sikhs marrying Hindus or vice verse. Traditionally my great Grandfather was a Hindu and then, his first born son (my Grandfather) was bought up as a Sikh, but still kept some traditional ways of Hindus. My family and I still follow some Hindu traditions and no there is no confusion in what we practise as a family. My father is an Amrtihdhari Sikh; he still continues to follow some of the family tradition. I have been observing the attitudes of some of the young people in this country; they find it very hard to understand how you can be a Sikh but follow some of the Hindu traditions. Young Sikhs in this country don't understand the difference in Dharma and religion, Sikh is not a religion but a way of life (Dharma). There is no fixed phenomenon in life, there are changes every second, and we deteriorate every second of your lives. Everyone has different lives to follow; we just have to observe our friends and family the emotions they feel and how they will deal in situations. Every person has a different story of life and that is what the Sikh dharma is, it’s a story of life and how you as an individual would deal with life. I'm being very philosophical, but the Sikh Dharma is not just about what is written in front of you and you follow it, Guru Granth sahib Maharaj, is great example of how a challenge in your life and how to deal with it e.g. an Amrithdahri taking medication containing meat extracts, has to take the medication to prolong his or her life. A religion can be put together by any one, but a Dharma can not, there is a requirement of deep philosophical thought process involved before giving a conclusion to matters in life. It is a very Christian term to explain something of different belief and to box it up. Hindus marrying Sikhs or Sikhs Marrying Hindus is great example how dharma (way of life) comes into play.

BiggChan, I’m just saying what I have read in your quote. I didn't say you have not labelled him as a non-Sikh, but majority of the people on this forum will call a Non-Amrithdhari a non Sikh. This statement was not pointed at you directly and I apologise for that. I shouldn't have quoted your post. I was making a point about the majority of people on this forum labelling Sikhs and non-Sikhs. If you recognise Gurdass Mann as a non-SIkh because he cuts his hair why should he help Sikh people in raising awareness about the Sikh faith. I apologise again, for quoting your post, but I will stick with my argument about how majority of the people portray Sikhs and non-Sikhs on this forum.

Sorry but, everyone on this forum love to contradict them self. Many times on this forum I have read this statement,"You are not a Sikh, if you are not an Amrithdahri or someone who cuts their hair". But, we have a case with Gurdass Mann, who has got a hair cut. So if people on this forum are stating that he should help his fellow "brethrin". Why?. You guys have already labelled him as a non-Sikh.

Thank you for a sensible reply.