Singh 'n ting

I think anyone watching the video of the Singh will have to conclude that its probably true ; Singhs can't fight. I mean.....the robber has a knife in his left hand....but the Singh decides to grab the 'right' wrist !! Not the cleverest of fighting moves. In fact, its an unbelievably stupid move.

"I am one of them people who visits india every year i spend a hell of a lot of time there and i have not seen any of this, dont believe it, its nonsense. Most of the people i have spoken too and i make a poiunt of speaking to [people about this issue say the same thing bhindranwale was bad and not good." ^ Read this then fella. Support for Bhindrawale and/or a Sikh homeland is so strong now in the Sikh heartlands of rural Punjab that even one of your official Indian mouthpieces couldn't ignore it any longer....(although its given the story a bit of an Indian spin to it) http://www.hindustan...anwale+lives+on As for the initial discussion ; Ashoka ? Gupta ? How far back are we going here? Why don't we just go back to the time of the scythians and declare that we are part of Iran. Fact is.........Before the British, after the second Anglo-Sikh war, incorporated us into British India, we (Punjab) were a totally seperate independant Sikh kingdom with nothing to do with hindustan. p.s With Manni007's constant posts about big bad evil muslims/pakistanis and now his declared love for India....who else here believes he is in fact a hindu pretending to be a sikh on this forum?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything citizen_soulja has said. I'll repeat what I said on another thread......When we were a tiny 3% minority living among an overwhelmingly muslim majority we survived, got stronger and prospered. Its laughable that some of us are now getting scared and paranoid of muslims when we live in a country with a tiny 3% muslim population. If this tiny 3% has struck so much fear in the hearts of sikhs than one of two things must be true. Either these muslims truly are now sava lakh stronger than us....or many of the UK sikhs have turned into timid easily scared mice. My bets are on the latter. Sad.

^ Bruvs, Its not about not wanting to criticise muslims or never facing any abuse by them...........Its about putting things in perspective and not getting carried away, thus avoiding getting a victim mentality. My gurus and forefathers prospered and got stronger when they were 4% and the muslims were the overwhelming majority. I fail to see why now that we live in a country where the muslims are a tiny 4% minority we need to fear them...because they're out to get us and destroy us. Its purely islamaphobia and I want no part of it. I want us to be a strong, confident community............not one thats paranoid about a tiny 4% community. I spend alot of time with family in Canada.....and from what I've observed the problem is far worse there than it is here in England. The only difference is that the problem in Canada is with christians.............and that the Canadian sikhs are more confident than us and so less likely to drift into paranoia. Here in England a handfull of sikhs leave sikhi and convert to islam.......and we panic like its the end of the world. In Canada though, especially Vancouver, I saw so many christian churches for former sikhs. I saw churches with their signs and sermons in gurmukhi. I saw so many (sikh) christians. Now obviously we're not gonna see that on a similar scale here in England because christianity is more or less dead among Europeans......but in north America it is very much a living religion that seeks converts and is as intolerant as islam......But you do not find sikhs from Canada or America getting paranoid about it. I want all religious communities to respect sikhism. For this to happen we must learn to respect other religions. Who are we to lecture muslims on their own sharia law? It is part of their religion and I respect their right to fight for it. If a similar case of sikh rights came up I would hope and expect muslims to support us too. Snap out of this victim mentality. Its not healthy.

I'm more worried by the increasing levels of islamaphobia being exhibited by many of my fellow British Sikhs here. For generations, the police, courts and social services have allowed the orthodox jews of north London (Stamford Hill) to police themselves according to jewish law. There was even a case a decade ago of accusations of child abuse within that community but neither the police nor social services got involved, allowing instead the elders of the community to deal with it. All muslims in Britain today are doing and asking for is the same that is already in existence for the jews. Of course our own faith does not share remarkable similarities with orthodox judaism so we neither need or ask for those type of thngs, but consider this ; When jews have something we don't bat an eyelid. When muslims ask for the same thing, we are up in arms. This, my brothers and sisters, is islamaphobia. Personally, I don't care what muslims do. They have their own faith...I have mine. I wouldn't be happy if they were criticising sikh issues when it is none of their business...and thats why I don't stick my nose into their own religious issues. Its none of my business. I'm too busy being a Sikh.

Geezer, i told you....I am west London born and bred. I knew where Hayes was before I could walk. Guru Arjun Dev ji was tortured by a hindu and it was the betrayal of another hindu that led to the killings of the 4 sahibzade. And thats the whole point ; Would you now blame and hate every hindu in the world because of what those 2 hindus did??? No. Look, I've been to Surrey in Canada where gangs of rednecks driving past have called me 'Osama' and abused me. I've had the same in London. Thats what ignorant, usually drunk or stones people do. On the other hand, I've come out of Hounslow Central underground station after workl and seen gangs of sikh youths, with cans of strong beer in their hand abusing passing muslim women. On one occassion, there was an arrab lady in a burqua walking past with her small children. The drunk sikh youths had so little respect for her religion or her children that they shouted out lewd things to her, such as "show us what you've got under that burqua darling". Because of incidents like that I'd hate to think there was a young muslim equivalent to you (manni) out there somewhere now making it his mission in life to spread the message of hate against sikhs. If you wanna do some demonstrating outside embassies etc Manni, I suggest you do it outside the Indian High Commission. They, committed genocide against the sikhs.....In my book genocide is worse then calling someone Osama whilst in a speeding car.

No. According to the last census most sikhs in Britain live in the south.....in non-muslim areas like Southampton and Gravesend when not in sikh/hindu majority areas of London like Ilford, Hounslow, Heston, Cranford, Osterley, Hayes etc. Even many of the 'northern' areas you mention shouldn't really pose a problem. Take 'Leicester' for example. That city is majority hindu Gujarati, who are supposed to be small and weak. So how come we never hear any of them complaining about getting beaten up by muslims? How come its always sikhs complaining about muslim intimidation? As for the other places you mentioned ; Birmingham has always been mostly Kashmiri Mirpuri muslim. Handsworth, although housing numerous gurdware, used to be a Jamaican / Ravidassia town.....but is now increasingly Jamaican/ Ravidassia / Muslim but the sikhs, like the Irish before them, have worked hard to get out of a generation ago....only really visiting for the gurdwaras but living in neighbouring towns such as Smethwick and West Bromwich. And even old Southall has once again had a distinct sikh majority ever since the Afghan sikhs moved in a decade ago. P.s......I was born and bred in Hounslow. If sikhs with paghs are getting beaten up everyday by Pakistanis then I should be in a coma by now....because I live right in the thick of it.....according to you.

Man....Am I really living in the same country as some of you? Given the north / south = pakistani / Indian divide in this country, its expected that that Pakistanis may give sikhs and hindus some grief in northern towns and cities...but here in the south I'm really not seeing the same things alot of you are seeing. What exactly are you complaining of? Are you upset that sikhs have got out of deprived inner city slums and those inner city deprived slums have now turned into muslim ghettos? Is that whats upsetting you ? The fact that muslims and taking over our slums.....taking our deprivation ?..........while we move out to nice neiighbourhoods and prosper. I have never once in my entire life faced any derogatory remark from any muslim here in London. On the contrary, every day of my life I have heard my fellow sikhs refer to muslims as 'sullah' this and 'sulli' that. Snap out of this victim mentality singho. Its not healthy.

Manni007, grow up son. We sikhs face a multitude of problems, most of which eminate from India. In your mind you've convinced yourselves that all Pakistanis and all muslims are out to get us and this small problem has, in your mind, become the biggest problem in the world. I really shouldn't need to say much more on this subject. Over the last couple of months the news reports coming out of Pakistan and the news interviews with the Pakistani Sikhs themselves should speak for themselves. Those Pakistani Sikhs themselves have time and time again expressed their anger at Indian Sikhs trying to score political points against Pakistan. The Pakistani Sikhs themselves are such patriotic & nationalistic Pakistanis that they would probably give you a good slapping if they read the things you have to say about their country, under the guise of helping the sikhs there. Anyway.......according to all the interviews with the sikhs themselves, the Pakistan government have ignored the muslim refugees and left them to fend for themselves, but have gone out of their way to give every sikh some substinence money to find shelter. In fact, the Pakistan government have done so much for us sikhs the last month or so, I'm actually suspicious of why they are trying top score brownie points..........trying to show India that Pakistan treats its sikhs better than India. But...whatever the motive.....there can be no excuse for your stupidity and ignorance...in trying to blame Pakistan / the Pakistani people for something a handfull of armed terrorist youths have done.

3000 sikhs AND muslims sheltering at Panja Sahib. So why exactly would you like to protest outside the Pakistan Embassy? Would you like to show your disapproval at how the Pakistan government has given each of those displaced sikhs money (while ignoring the many more muslim refugees) and shelter while it send its army into the NWFP to fight the taliban that demanded the tax from sikhs. Many, many Pakistanis have lost their lives in the last few weeks fighting the taliban. I'm sure the Pakistan embassy and people would appreciate your demonstration against them. If they never thought we sikhs were thick before, they certainly would now.

Right, its sorted then. Nanga sirh is OK and we should put patke on 3 year olds in pre-school (coz thats how old my nephew and his bhatra peers are) Happy days. I no longer need to fret about my soon to be born munda. No need to spend money on rumahals either. We'll follow all ths advice given here and leave his head bare whenever we go out.....we'll marry him off to some Kamla Devi, who I'll make sure covers her face when I'm around.....We'll pull our grandaughter out of school at the age of 15 and marry her off so she can weigh herself down with gold jewellery....and if my son can't find a job we'll send him off to Hong Kong where he can happily embarrass sikhs by harrassing tourists for money by reading their palms / telling their fortune. Thanks for your help guys. I'm gonna save a small fortune in rumahals now and in these troubled credit crunch times thats no mean feat.

The topic is not quite as pointless as DSH, but then again very little is. It could be because many of you are kids yourselves so have not given any thought to what your children and your childrens peers might or might not do. I married a year and a half ago and we are expecting our first baby in August (its gonna be a boy)...and so obviously it is important to me that my child doesn't copy the bhatra way and go to school with a 'virtual' nanga sirh. And thats simply the point I was making here. Its obviously gone over most of your heads but I personally feel it is wrong that a large section of British Sikhs (the bhatras) are sending their kids to school etc with nanga sirh...virtually. My mother is absolutely right to find it insulting. Also........and this is only connected loosely.....but whenever she has got talking to the grandmothers of the bhatra sikh kids in my nephews school, she has found that many of the grandmothers have names such as 'Kamla Devi' or Sunita Rani'. She found that it is common for many of the male bhatra folks from Britain to go back to Delhi to marry, and when there, they inter marry with suitable hindus. They have told her this themselves, while covered in gypsy ghold regalia and rings through their noses. I know people here love jatt bashing....but I think its worth noting how the chamars classify themselves as hindus....the bhatras regularly marry Kamla Devi's...and the khatri and Arora sikhs here in west London via Afghanistan marry their first cousins.

This is a serious question. I sincerely hope none of you take it as muck raking or trouble making. The issue is about bhatra sikhs and the way they don't put a white (or any other colour) rumahal over their kids joohra....but instead put a thin black see-thru one on so to the naked eye it looks like their is no hair covering. My sister lives in Southampton so we visit there often. When we do, mum who is amritdhari, gets very irate and vexed when she sees the bhatra sikhs. My mum sometimes walks my nephew to school, and in the same class are many bhatra sikh children. Practically all the bhatra boys, like my nephew has a joohra.It makes my mums blood boil however, the way that the bhatra parents never ever put a white rumahal over their kids joohra. They only put a thin black net over the joohra that is only visible to the naked eye when observed close up. The bhatre feel the white rumahal is sooo pendu. In my mums eyes, this is making a mockery of the joohra. If you wanna go to the lengths of hiding the covering of the hair then whats the point of keeping the joohra in the first place. My mum feels that what they are saying is ' yes we know the hair should be covered but we think it looks silly and backward so we're gonna go through the effort of giving it the illusion of being uncovered'. Theres hardly any bhatre in places around here in west London but in places like Southampton, Portsmouth, Bristol etc they make up at least half the sikh population and frankly even I do find it a bit upsetting, if not confrontational. What do you guys think? Is my mum right to get angry whenever she sees this?

We live in pretty shameless times. Me and the wife visited Hong Kong last year and took a day trip to Stanley Market. We were part of a tour and when we got off the bus the tour guide told everyone not to give money to the 'sikhs' because they are all con men. About half an hour into the guided walk we ran into our first sikh. Like the Romanian gypsy's in London they were grabbing hold of peoples hands offering to read their palms....tell their fortune. :o And there we have it......I went to Hong Kong reading about the history of Sikhs there 100 years ago...a history of them being honourable soldiers. I went, I saw and I came back home knowing that our reputation there now is as charlatan fortune tellers. Once were warriors.... <_< Old articles about sikhs in England in the 1930's and 40's often mention the fact that the sikhs are a nuisance going door to door reading residents fortunes. Those sikhs were the bhatra sikhs. The sikhs at Stanley, Hong Kong are also bhatra sikhs. Not that it means anything. I'm just saying. Doesn't mean the guys knocking on your door are too. Might be though.

I'm sorry if I caused offence. That certainly wasn't my intention. I did state in my post that I was sure it was just a coincidence. However, we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand and ignore blind obvious facts. The fact is that there has now been 3 major fires in Gurdwaras in a short space of time. Surely its worth noting that although the bhatre make up a tiny percentage of Sikhs both in Britain and abroad, only existing in a few areas of Britain, all 3 fires have occurred in areas where they make up the overwhelming majority of the Sikh population. Surely thats worth mentioning?

^ I'm sure its just a coincidence.....but the Bow Gurdwara....the Manchester Gurdware...AND the Doncaster Gurdwara are Bhatra Gurdware. I'm sure it doesn't mean anything....Just something to give us food for thought.

If I was your typical west London son / daughter of a sikh......I think this article by the author would do more to make me sit up and take interest in sikh history and ultimately sikhism than anything else written by anyone else. In order to get through to da yoots dem....you have to speak in a language da yoots dem understand. Ya get me? :TH:

I hope our generation can do something to make a difference.. :pray: I remember Goodness Gracious Me very well. One of the funniest TV programmes ever produced by the BBC. I seem to remember the guys made fun of hindus and to a lesser extent muslims more if not the same as they did with sikhs. From some of the skits I can recall, I can understand if hindus were up in arms complaining......but us sikhs haven't really got alot to complain about regarding this programme. All in all it was kinder to us than any of the other south Asian communities.

Not just an Afghan thing bruvs. Its the norm among the aroras and khatris. It is in fact the main issue of contention here in west London between the traditional jatts / ramgharias and the newly arrived aroras / khatris. The jatts / ramgharias do see the arora / khatri marriage practices as insest and this creates alot of bad feeling within the sikh community. I was gonna say bad blood but that would be a bad joke. Read this : http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopi...?f=10&t=968

Used to work with the Refugee Council so know many Afghani Sikh families personally. From what I know, they go through the same checks before choosing marriage partners as other Sikhs. ^ Admirable and much needed work.....especially with our immoral govt thinking it right and safe to send sikhs back to Afghanistan. Top man. But.......Generally, rightly or wrongly, I think you'll find the main issue of contention between the jatt / ramgharias and the newer arrival aroras and khatris in west London is the way that the jatts / ramgharias regard the arora / khatri marriage practices as insest.

That's not true - Non- muslim Punjabis of all backgrounds observe these rules. Muslim Jatts do not. Also your statements about Afghani Sikhs is false. Fella, a quarter of my road are 'Afghan' sikhs. We don't live in isolation from one another. We do talk to each other and attend each others functions....and, we do have eyes. So, either you're one of these 10,000 west London Afghan sikhs yourself, in which case this would be a good opportunity to admit and dondemn what 'some' afghan sikhs do or.....you just like saying "thats not true", because its easier than admitting something thats actualy quite shamefull to our sikh community.

I too used to take great delight in reminding my muslim friends that we sikhs are so against cousin marriage that we go to great lengths when choosing a marriage partner, to ensure that our paternal and maternal 'goths' do not match so as to eliminate even the slightest chance of a distant blood relation. I thought this was a sikh thing. Little did I know it was a 'jatt' thing. Then.....with the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, up to 10,000 Afghan sikhs moved into our west London neighbourhood. I found that they, being exclusively arora and khatri, married their first cousins the same way that muslims do. Later, found out that it wasn't just an 'Afghan' thing to do that. Found out that all bhappe....whether in Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta or Jalandhar do the same thing....i.e marry their first cousins. I then realised why most non sikhs in India think all sikhs marry their cousins. The average sikh in the city in town is of a bhappa background...and so the average non-sikh associates all bhappe activities with normal everyday sikh activities. They have no interaction with the rural jatts. That, is also why the Indian drama serials think it is quite normal for a sikh to do pooja at home and to inter-marry with hindus etc. Personally though.....I prefer my jatt ways. The jatt way is the sikh way.