Deep Singh

Amandeep Singh Ji, Do you know which Greek accounts have the word 'Penta Potamia' (used for Punjab)? I think it has to be 'land of the five' also...Potamia as in Meso-Potamia, and Penta is five(?). Thanks! If some of you guys want more info about the different names (other than Penta Potamia), i can give the proper reference, in case someone needs it is.

So basically we have to burn the Kasherra, Kara, Kirpan, Kangha too?

Ancient names of Punjab: Panch-aal (Sanskrit) Panch-Nadd (Sanskrit) Paenta-Potamia (Greek) Punj-ab (Sanskrit/Persian) Other related names for "Punjab Area": Sapt Sindhu (Sanskrit - land of seven rivers) Vaheek-Desh (From word 'Vahoona', as in Hall Vahoona, ie to work in the field, that means the land of farmers..) Madra-Desh (Puranic name - The country north-west of Hindustan) Tak-Desh (perhaps related to the country around Taksila..) etc.. :T:

Respected Jagjit Singh ji, Pashaura Singh is a 'research scholar' based at some US university. He has written some books on Guru Granth Sahib Ji, its history etc. His views are often taken as 'offensive and blasphemous' in the Sikh Panth. Some say that he is from the group of Mcleod etc...Gurinder S. Mann and those guys. I think he was called to Akal Takht for his books once (i don't remember the whole issue) I have read some parts of his books, it is informative, but i haven't read all his works to make a firm opinion on this scholar. You are right that he does not address those matters in his book. Those pages are just a small note from his side on Raag-Maala, in a chapter about Raags in Gurbani. But he has studied lots of Beers and holds lots of knowledge about Gurbani history etc. He is one of the few alive people who have themself studied Kartarpuri Beer. A photography of the Beer is given in his book. In the post by Banda Singh veerji, Pashaura Singh says that also other Beers have Raag-Maala. So, for that his opinion is worth to be noted. (not neccs accept..) I think his views are good in the sense that he provides a different angle at the whole matter. Perhaps Raag-Maala isn't meant to be Gurbani, perhaps Guru Sahib just added it to Sri Guru Granth as an informative source for Sikhs on Raag-parampara that existed at that time. That meant that Guru Ji wanted Sikhs to learn the Raag knowledge of Hindustani Sangeet. It is kind of tribute to the Raags of classical music, some of them that they have used in Gurbani. This is basically his view. It is very simple, yet different. I didn't say it is the best opinion, it can be heavily criticised. I won't say more, as it is not needed. We shouldn't go there i think...

Bro...no one is believing in paintings. It started with Chand (if it is related to Shivji or not). And someone provided a photo with Chand fixed in Shivji's hair to show that link. Of course! In Sikhi we can't trust photos (not even "Sikh" paintings!...perhaps 90% are painted by non-Sikhs). In Hinduism, paintings or idols (historic) can be used as a secondary reference, as they are a major part of their traditions, and that was the question (if Chand had anything to do with Shivji...and that was proved, the paintings other than that are just useless) There are however two relevant questions that have been discussed: 1. Origin of Chand-Tora/Aad-Chand. Importance of 'the cresent' in Sikhi, if any, and if that is similar to the usage in Hinduism (or Islam)? Similar for the Khanda.. 2. If Guru Gobind Singh Ji themself used Chand (they did used Dumalla etc), and if they wanted their Khalsa to use the Chand. I see we have come to some good notable points on nr. 1, but no one has provided answars to 2. In my opinion, if the answar to nr. 2 is negative, then there is "no point" discussing anything about Chand. If it is just something that originated among Nihang groups who wanted to uplift there own status and image by using puratan predominantly Hindu symbols, and show themselves as a 'martial breed' then it is understandable that they started using Chand. Balpreet Singh Ji's article on Tapoban.org about Sikh identity shows that in some periods under Ranjit Singh, Hindu-like traditions etc started appearing among Sikhs, and it is clear that the Chand can also be something from that corner. (if it is not proved that G uru Sahib themself gave the Chand to the Khalsa!) Something similar is the reason why paintings of Hindu "gods" have been found in Darbar Sahib...now they are removed or being removed with Sikh arts.

Oh thanks! I understand what you mean. As his views on abortion...it is the feelings thing. I had philosophy this semester, so Singer was one of those guys in it..

judge and all...what the heck. that is kind of serious mate...

Peter Singer's Article What do you guys think? I have read some of Peter Singer's articles and they have some good points. Does this fit into Gurmat thinking about meat etc? Remember his philosophy is Vegan-based, ie take nothing from animals! we use milk etc ps. sorry, admins. this is not directly Sikh philosophy, but i think it doesn't fit in any other thread.

When i was born, my folks "forgot" to add the got name (ie the clan surname) on the birth cirtif. So i was kind of lucky, and has always been a Singh :wub:

I think Navjot Singh Ji presented a good explanation, but as Amandeep Ji's post indicated; it can be criticized. Still, if the Aad-Chand/Chand-tora doesn't have anything to do with Shivji's Chand, then why is it called 'Chand'? If it is miri-piri, then it should have been called something thereafter, atleast in Nihang terms! But, it is known as Chand, hence it must be linked to the Chand of Shiv.

Great! :TH:

So, what kind of punishment?

MS514 Ji's post had these points: 1. That Aad-Chand is not = Trishul 2. Khanda is not = Shivling But, 3. The Chand in Aad-Chand = Chand of Shivji But Khanda is, according to Bhai Kahn Singh's Kosh, still from Vedic mythology. Perhaps not the spear in the trishul of Shivji. So even seperatly: Chand is of Shivji. And Khanda is from Vedic writings that are also related to Shivji. Still equally confused. I think it can be accepted that both Chand and Khanda are from puratan mythologies, but shivling meaning can never be in accordance with Gurmat!

Amandeep Ji, Let us assume that chand is the Shivait symbol. I think most of us can accept that certain groups (Nihangs..) have used Chand. Also that modern people use it to either look like Nihangs (or perhaps they also want to look like Shivji). These things are all fine and good for me, as people have done things that are wrong (as per Gurmat). And this means they haven't understood Gurmat. (or that they have understood Gurmat, and i haven't...not even its core principles) BUT, my problem arises here: Can it be documented that Guru Gobind Singh Ji brought the Chand symbol into Khalsa Banaa?? If so, or if they themself wore it, then i surely have a problem. If my whole mind setup had been sanatani, ie that Sikhism is the 'true form of old Vedic belief' and there is a continuity, i would have accepted it. But as i believe that Gurmat is a different path, then why would Guru ji give "vedic" symbols to their Khalsa? that is i think the problem....

Anyone?? What about a Turban helmet for motorbikes etc? :wub: He looks great... :wub:

OK, so now i feel we have come a long way.. Lets summarize. there are these different views: 1. Aad-Chand: Chand consists of a cresent and a bhagauti/khanda. Chand represents Shivji (?), and Khanda is the shivling. 2. Suraaj Vanse and Chandar Vanse theory: Chand represents the moon (and sun). It is from Shivji. So that the Khalsa that wears it is tyarr-bar-tyarr, both night and day. 3. Miri-Piri: The two edges of the Chand are actually two swords, hence the miri-piri concept is related to it. It is also related to Degh-oh-Tegh. 4. Shiv-Saroop: Chand represents Shivji on the earth, so anyone who wears it has the shakti that is of shivji. The bhagauti is Akal Purakh's Sword. (in some places Bhagauti is said to be Chandi/Chandi's power/Chandi's sword...and related to the female aspect of God's power) However, these are theories and no one has pointed to any Vedic scriptures* or any Sikh writings that may tell more about it. Most of the people have told something they heard... *= I mentioned Vedic, as most of the above thoughts bring in Shiv, and therefore it is relevant to hear what those scriptures say about it. If we take Amandeep Singh ji's word, Aad-Chand theory is well documented through photographs and perhaps also shivait writings (?). Suraaj & Chanda Vanse thought is very interesting. Fits will into the tyarr-bar-tyarr aspect of the Khalsa ideology. Then again Miri-Piri thought is perhaps even better, as there is no connection to Shivji, and the problem with his shivlings doesn't arise. (lol) Shiv-Saroop thought is kind of mixture of Aad-Chand and S/C Vanse theories. So, is o nly one theory right, or are they all related to each other and just pointed to different aspects of the same beauty. (not so strange that people like me get confused) Is it possible to give the Chand-tora an accepted 'spiritual meaning' according to Gurmat, so we can drop the "sexual" or "idolistic" meanings? I hope that someone gives some better explanations, that sorts out the confusion.

Moorakh mugadh

We have to produce 'Diving Dumalla Pro Version 1.X ' for that.....

I just read those pages in his book. He does have some good points. Thanks for that Veer ji.

MM Bhaji is in it..i just heard 'inside' news.. :wub: Bhaaaaaaajiiiiiiiiii....you HAVE to post some pics of yourself doing gatka! great!

Does he want to hype up the School children on barfi or jallebian? just kiding.. That is wonderful, i hope the Sikh community thanks that person.

Amandeep.. Ji, What is your opinion on Khargg-Ket? Is it possible that any of the Nishan Sahib were in the form of Khargg-Kets? Thanks for the link! Would you kindly add some pictures here, as it is possible to do so on Sikhsangat.com (if you are not able to do so, i am sure someone here can help you..) So the Aad-Chand does represent the Islamic moon and the Shivling....

French Sikh leaders flay French Govt’s ‘discrimination’ J.S. Malhotra http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041210/jplus.htm#4 “Turban” — a symbol of` Sikh — has generated a lot of heat in India and abroad in the recent past, following the decision of the French Government to ban wearing of turban by school students there. Mr Pal Singh, who happens to be one of the first “turbaned” Sikhs to get a permanent residency in France way back in 1984, in an interview with Jalandhar Plus, says, “In France, there is a law that anyone who is to be photographed for the issuance of national identity (ID) card and passport, should be ‘Tete Nue’ — with bare head. Since most of the Muslims and Jews do not usually wear any headgear, the Sikhs have to remove their turbans before getting themselves photographed. I fought against this unfair treatment for about 13 months. My efforts bore fruit. I was photographed with my turban on in 1984.” Mr Pal Singh, who is in city these days, first emigrated to Germany in 1978 from Dhande village of Shahkot in Jalandhar. Elaborating on problems being faced by the Sikhs in France, he claims that the government spared no effort to foil their plan to construct a gurdwara in Paris. “We proposed to purchase land for constructing gurdwaras in three main areas of Paris — Montreal, Bagnlot and Bobigny - during 1986 to 1989. But every time, the then-Mayor of Paris, using the power vested in him, refused to grant permission on one pretext or the other. Finally, we bought a house and converted it to a gurdwara. According to Mr Singh, in the latest salvo against the Sikhs, the Ministry of Inteir (Internal Ministry), had issued a secret circular to the government departments on March 17, 2004, clearly mentioning that immigrants should be photographed “sans turban” — without turban. “This is the first time that the word ‘turban’has been used instead of ‘bare head’.”

Punjabis love for Gatka undiminished http://www.keralanext.com/news/?id=76436 India News, Amritsar, The tradition of Gatka, the ancient martial art developed by the Sikh Gurus for the protection of the Sikhs and the faithful, is still being kept alive by a Sikh family settled in this holy city. The religious aspect apart, Gatka is also an excellent exercise for the disciplining of the mind and the body. Gurinder Singh, a well-settled Sikh family in Amritsar has been providing a modern education to his children apart from keeping them in regular touch of their traditions and religious beliefs. He send his 5-year-old son to a `Gatka Akhara' in the city, not to make him a warrior, but to learn the traditional art, for a change in attitude and keep him away from wrong doings. "The impact on the child has been that he has became bold. Earlier he was afraid, but now its all gone. He realises the importance of time. He does his homework on time and then goes to Gatka academy. He is very disciplined and obeys his elder," says Gurinder Singh. An act to keep them mentally and physically alert, Gatka is a regular feature at the "Guru Ram Dass Shiromani Gatka Akhara" in the holy city of Amritsar. Every evening after eight, about 100 students gather here, to be trained for two hours in an ancient tradition that uses weapons and physical combat to discipline the mind. It also sets them on the path of spirituality and physical well being and mastery. Gatka is based upon a single movement called the "panthra", and was initially practised for hours to develop the agili ty of footwork, to keep the body well balanced when using weaponry. An array of hand weapons - sword staff and other weapons - dating back to ancient times, is used in the practice of Gatka. Randeep Singh, a gatka instructor, said, "Parents are apprehensive of their children picking up bad habits, getting addicted to drugs and requenting the cinema. This place is like a temple and the martial art we are imparting is out tradition. The ancient martial art Guru Gobind Singh taught us is very essential for every Sikh. The one who calls himself a true Sikh needs to learn this ancient art". "We have decided to train the little children as their mind is fresh and can be diverted to this end. It shows the good side of the parents that their children are learning the teachings of the Gurus. This is just a step for the children to learn gatka, along with the Gurbani. We go to participate in the guru purvs celebrations and perform nagar kirtans. The children feel happy to get attached to their traditions, says Swaran Singh, a Gatka instructor. (ANI)