Shinda

Vaheguru Je Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Je Ke Fateh MS514, the Singh in question is not Prof. Gurmukh Singh rather “Raagi” Gurmukh Singh who wrote Anand Chamtkar. Although not knowing much about either I ask you if they are one an the same? (Same person just different titles), if not then your comments only add to confuse the discussion. From my own knowledge and research and just looking at the time periods alone of the two individuals it seems they are completely different individuals. If I am mistaken as you seem more knowledgeable on this please correct me. Gurmukh Singh, writer of Anand Chamtkar was boycotted from the Panth for some of his writings, (may or may not be in Anand Chamtkar), but these writings where quite blasphemous towards Khalsa Panth as a whole. For these reasons he was called forward by Akaal Takaht and later declared tankhayeeaa. Singh47 as per your insistence that Mahpursh blessed it, I do not judge you for making this up yourself, as you have stated Singh’s of Nanaksar told you this, but I find it hard to believe that Mahpursh blessed such work that would later be banned. Since I am of mind state that Mahpursh themselves are perfect persons, I do not feel that they blessed such work. As per the edited versions I am sure that being of historic signi ficance Nanaksar would have definitely edited out parts which defamed Gursikhs and Khalsa Panth and re-released Anand Chamtkar so that it was acceptable.

Vaheguru Je Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Je Ke Fateh Anand Chamatkar is written by Gurmukh Singh is it not? This same Gurmukh was called before Sri Akaal Takht Sahib for his writings. After refusing to show, he and his writings where boycotted from the Panth. So would quoting from his works not be any different then quoting and propogating views from such modern day tankhayeeaa who follow the same suit such as Kalaa Afgaana?

Vaheguru Je Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Je Ke Fateh Vaheguru Je Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Je Ke Fateh I realize this is kind of late notice, but as of last Friday a Holaa Mahaala Smaagam has been taking place at Sri Guru Singh Sabha Malton, on behalf of Damdami Taksal Jatha Bhindra (Mehta). The Program Dates & Times are as follows: Sri Akhand Paht Sahib: March 12-14th Gurmat Camp: March 14 - 18th Gatka Demo's and Battles: March 20th @ 1 PM - 4 PM Evening Diwans (Everyday) Katha In English: 5:30 - 6:30 PM Kirtan Diwan: 6:30 - 9:00 PM AMRIT SINCHAAR: March 20th @ 8:00 AM KIRTAN DARBAAR: March 20th 6:00 PM - 12:00 AM Location/Contact Information: Sri Guru Singh Sabha Malton Address: 7280 Airport Rd, Mississauga Ontario Phone: (905) 671-1662 (Ask for Bhai Surjit Singh) Jasdev Singh email: jasdev@gursikhijeevan.com phone: (905) 264-9540 Navtej Singh email: jiwaheguruji@hotmail.com phone: (416) 994-0804 Please come out and give your darshan!! Vaheguru Je Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Je Ke Fateh!!

CFT Jee, I only post now to clarify different things to which it seems I was unable to make clear within my original post and hope to clarify different points as raised by you within your last reply. I understand and got the point you where trying to prove, being that anyone can make a sakhi up. My main point was that although sakhis can easily be made up, Gursikhs have no will to lie. Although this sakhi was recited by Giani Takhur Singh Ji it was one that is known through out the Jatha and also known by other Gursikh veers and was taught to the Singhs by the Gurmukh Pyarai of the elder generation (Those from Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji’s) and passed to the younger generation (Sant Baba Kartaar Signh Ji’s, of which Giani Takhur Singh Ji is from) as such is the oral tradition of Khalsa History, where sakhis are carried down from the elder generation to the new generation. I am not saying Sant Jaranil singh Ji read at this speed, rather applying the speed analysis which you used in your original post, Being that Sri Raag Malaa Sahib is about one ang in length I assumed that by virtue of the theory you presented, all angs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, would take the same rate to read as per your analysis above. My main reasoning for bringing this point across was only to illustrate that applying such timings to even this situation (Sant Jarnail Singh reciting 125 Sri Jap Ji Sahib paths) logically seems unreasonable and I tried to illustrate that 14 hours was more time then Sant Jarnail Singh Ji had during the morcha. So really what I’m trying to show is that Sant Jarnail Singh Ji did it much faster then 14 hours, however trying to prove it mathematically would make us assume otherwise and also make such a task seem illogical, and thus trying to show why such an analysis can never accurately measure how fast paath can be done. Similarly I used the examples of Bhai Surjit Singh Ji, Bhai Nishaan Singh Ji, and Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji, who can read bani at such speeds that mathematically (using that it takes one ang per minute or even two ang per minute) it does not seem to be possible. The reasons I assumed this time, was also explained in my last reply, however I apologize for not clearly presenting my reasoning behind it. 1. Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji was staying with the Jatha, as such would have been constantly studying and reading Gurbani. This point is made as it is evident that constant recital of Bani would make one more inept and faster in reading/reciting it. 2. Secondly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji received kirpa from a true a mahpursh under which anything is possible. 3. Lastly, if we look at Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji doing abhiyaas of Sri Raag Maala Sahib over a 40 day period we can factor in that they would have had Sri Raag Maala Sahib Kanth (memorized). From personal observation it is easily seen that reciting banis we have kanth vs reading ones that we do not a marginal difference is observed in the speed. From the following I assumed that it take 20 seconds as similarly you gave your reasoning that a good pathi on average would take a minute. Jee, as I hopefully made clear above, this is not the case at all. Rather my comparison was to show that the speed at which you showed in your analysis (one minute per ang) could be shown to make different amounts of reading speeds seem impossible and illogical. My backing up of this and critique on your analysis (of assuming one or two ang per minute) included looking at different pathis, and these included Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji etc. Jee, my analysis is also prone to error and myself am only giving another outlook on it. As you, yourself stated I maybe doing so only in defense of this Sakhi (which I myself believe to be true) but at the same time one can say, that you are trying to disprove this sakhi within your own posts according to your own logic. For this reason I have adopted a manor similar to that of your own, in analyzing this sakhi. A completely different method was done by GurmatVeechar, however after reading your posts, it almost seemed as if you where deeming his reasoning illogical and unfitting therefore, I tried to prove this point with similar logic/manor as to that you yourself presented earlier. The human body in itself is limited. I myself do not know if Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji slept or not. I am only making the assumption for two reasons. 1. This roop itself is limited to the laws that govern it but as you stated, and as GurmatVeechar illustrated such limitations can easily be broken with Kirpa. 2. In your original post the tone you took in which you stated “and this is all WITHOUT the singh SLEEPING even for a minute.” seemed quite sarcastic and for this reason felt that only after factoring in sleep, food, and washroom breaks in my own analysis would it be satisfactory for you. I personally feel that if I did not include these in my analysis then you would have later critiqued me for not doing so, and thus thought it safe to address these concerns. (I again apologize for making this assumption as it appears it would deem untrue to this situation). In closing, I hope that I have cleared the things that it seemed where not clear in the original posting based on your last post. I would also like to say that (again making the assumption, that you yourself do not believe in Sri Raag Malaa Sahib) that when hearing sakhis such as these that conflict with personal views one may deem them untrue (a trait shared amongst all humans). In example if one was to try and share sakhis of the Guru Sahiban, Mahaan Shaheeds etc to atheists or those who do not follow Sikhi then to such individuals these sakhis would also seem greatly fabricated and made up and they would deem them illogical etc. However it is our trust and faith in the Guru’s and in Guru day Sikh that shape our own beliefs and bring us closer to Guru Sahibaan. Sikhi in the end is a game of love, and after all how can love exist if there is no trust. I feel that we have now analyzed this sakhi to the point where it is now up to the readers to decide for themselves what they deem to be illogical or not. I can only now ask for forgiveness if I have mis quoted you and for any false assumptions that I have made. Dass Shinda

Telling lies within Sikhi is one of the greatest sins a sikh can commit. So if you did that and told people not only would you be talking out of hankaar (showing how much kirpa, and how high your avasta really reached) but would also be telling a lie, in which case you would be commiting a grave sin, unless of course you did in which case it is obvious that you do indeed have immense kirpa. As per your mathematical analysis I find several flaws with it. Firstly Singhs such as Bhai Nishaan Singh, or even Bhai Surjit Singh can read bani at emense speeds ie often complete a Sukhmani Sahib paht within 15 mins or less and they again are not alone. Singhs such as Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji, where known for doing 125 Jap Ji Sahib Pahts a day even during the morcha. Using the same analytical analysis, 1 ang = 1 minuite Jap Ji Sahib = 7 Angs = 7 minutes 125 x 7 = 875 minutes = 14 hours. Now without factoring in sleep that leaves 10 hours open. Sant carried many responsiblities espeically during the morcha in which they would hold speechs, attend programs, hold diwans, santhia, katha etc. All these things factored in it could seem unrealistic, and this again was not including sleep. But like you stat ed earlier its different between a mahpursh and another premi. We can also look at singhs such as Bhai Baljinder Singh who Sant Baba Takhur hold in esteem for their ability to do a full and complete recitation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji within a 12 hour time. Now again according to the analysis you presented 1430 minutes = 23.83 hours.... Again this would deem untrue under such an analysis. Taking in your account that a fast pathi can recite bani at greater speeds we can half that, in which case it does hold true but logically would hold flaws, due to individuals pausing for breaths, difficulty of certain shabads etc) Now to present another scenario one that you did not look at, firstly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji was staying with the Jatha, as such would have been constantly been studying and reading gurbani. Secondly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji recieved kirpa from a true a mahpursh under which anything is possible. Now again if we look at Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji doing abhiyaas of Sri Raag Maala Sahib over a 40 day period we can factor in that they would have had Sri Raag Maala Sahib Kanth (memorized). From personal observation it is easily seen that reciting banis we have kanth vs reading ones that we do not a marginally difference is observed in the speed. Taking this into consideration I would propose that a time of 20 seconds per recitation of a Sri Raag Maala Paht be taken. Thus.. 20 * 125, 000 = 250 000 seconds = 41,666 minutes = 694 hours = 28.9 Round to 29 days. Sleep -> During a Chaleesa one would most likely sleep no more then 3 hours a day, it can also be observed that while staying with Baba Ji I noted some Singhs would rarley sleep. Also doing sangat with Singhs from Sant Baba Gurbachan singhs times, i can say that many of them sleep for no more then 5 hours a night, on a regular scedhule. However as per Bhai Jeeta Singhs case they where on somewhat of a mission to complete and for this would sleep much less then normal, and as such say ab out 3 Hours a night for sleep. thus 3 * 40 = 120 Hours of Sleep / 24 = 5 days..... we would also like to factor in eating. During this period Bhai Sahib would have eaten very little as Singhs would in such situations. Thus propose that no more then 1 hour a day was taken for the eating of meals (most often on personal level I can complete a meal within 5 minutes which conists of 2 parshaday and daal) hence if we considered 5 meals which took no more then 5 minutes to consume then that only adds up to 25 mins. However for washroom breaks etc we'll factor it to be a total of 1 hour. Thus 40 hours = 1.7 days.. Therfore if we tally everything up.. 29 days -> Abhiyaas 5 days -> sleep 1.7 days -> food/washroom ===== 35.7 days Leaving 4.3 days (103.2 hours) which we can use as a margin of error (ie it took more time one day or they slept a little extra etc) Now even after presenting this analysis, I doubt I would have changed your mind on the authenticity of the sakhi, which was never my goal, rather I only posted to show that such anaylsis are prone to errors at different levels. In my own mind I do not doubt this sakhi, as I have met with other Singhs from Mahpursh's time who also recognize this sakhi. It is one also observed by Raag Ustaads, but in the end my beleif is that the only reason this sakhi became anything of any debate is only due to its relation with Sri Raag Maala Sahib. (which you may or may not beleive in as being Guru Di Bani which is something we will not get into). I highly doubt the authenticity of this sakhi would arise if it had to do with say Sri Jap Ji Sahib instead. However regadless of what one beleives the one thing that this sakhi offers is those that hold sharda and do abhyaas of Gurbani, can under Guru Di Kirpa accomplish any task to which they set forth. Apoglogies in advance if I have said anything to offend or if you are insulted in anyway by anything which I have said in the above. dass >shinda

Nanaksar is in CK in most places. In some areas however it has come under bad and more "moderate" management/influence. They have the uptmost respect and show uptmost Satkaar for Guru Sahib where the old maryada is still active and observed. The wearing of white is common with most Sant/Nirmalla Sampardaams, as the sakhi goes that after shedding the bana of Uch da Pir Guru Sahib only wore white. The bibian issue is something that stems back from Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji's time, and is a maryada that they themselves started and upheld and more info on this can be found in the Jeevan Of Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji. The golak is also something that can be learned more from by reading Santa(n) Di Jeevan but in general a golak is not kept as, it is said that Guru Da Darbaar is not a place for maya. The rehat kept by Nanaksar is one that I myself have never quite understood, but then again I have never talked with any Babay or kathawachaks from Nanaksar so in all fairness to them, I myself never made an ample effort to understand. If one is ever in India they need to check out the Nanaksar Gurdwara in Kaleran and visit the Bhora Sahib. At this place Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji did tremendous amounts of Tup and this can still be felt, by any who enter, the feeling is hard to describe but it hits hard in the gut and its almost a ghostly experience. The amount of Bani and simran done at this place is unreal and can be felt in the air, its remarkable, and for this reason Sant gave buchan that all those who visit should keep the practice or make an ample effort in doing, 6 malas of mool mantrs per day, 5000x reciation of gurmanter, 200 sukhmani sahib paht and 600 Jap Ji Sahib Pahts a month and 12 Sehaj Paht within a year. (I may have made mistakes in the figures but the correct ones can be found on a sign posted at Bhora Sahib).

I watched the film, and can say that is not Sant Jarnail Singhs body. Some other (different) pictures of Sant Jarnails supposed body have also come up. This picture carries with a few flaws: 1) In some cases reported it was said that Sant Jarnail Singhs face was really "destroyed" due to the explosions/gun fight. The body depicted in the documentary is in pretty fair condition. 2) Similar images of different Singhs have popped up in newspapers and on the internet and in books depicting Sant Jarnail Singhs fallen body. All bodies are different showing that no actual image has been decided upon. Bibi Pritam Kaur Ji (Sant Jarnail Singhs wife) was asked to identify a similar body (not certain if the one in the documentary is the same one, she looked at), but upon doing Darshan of it she declared that it was not Sant Ji's body. As per the documentary, although I havn't seen all of it, I'm glad to see that they make mention of the conspiracy theory behind the Air India bombing. Its sad however to see how the India Goverment depicted so called Sikhs helping the army and supporting them by depicting mock sardaars in the video images.

Just to let Sangat know

Just to clarify Sant Baba Takhur Singh Ji has never put a date on Sant Ji's return except that it will be when Akaal Purkh decides right. The 2004 date is what has been speculated as Baba Ji has hinted the time is coming close, and some Singhs with Sant Jarnail Singh in 84, who survived the attacks have also suggested this date. Read Bani do your Simran love life. Regardless of 2004 or not, the end is always a breath away.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! I really do not, know much about the event, but intelects such as those who presented plague, Sikhi. sqgur kI syvw gwKVI isru dIjY Awpu gvwie ] The same group claim Guru Sahib to be a liar, because Guru Sahib in their opinion cut goats and not the heads of the beloved five. In their opinion it would be impossible to cut of an individuals head and replace it onto another body. gurmuiK roim roim hir iDAwvY ] The same intelects would find it difficult to believe that Gursikh Jeevans such as those of Bhai Mati Daas Ji who even when being cut in half continued the recitation of Sri Jap Ji Sahib. Who's every cell was doing Jaap and singing praises of the all mighty Akaal Purkh. hir nwmu hmwrw Bojnu CqIh prkwr ijqu KwieAY hm kau iqRpiq BeI ] They would find it next to impossible to believe in recent Gursikhs such as Sant Baba Harnaam Singh Ji, or Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji, who would spend countless days without food or drink, who’s hungers and thirsts where all quenched by Guru Di Bani. Such individuals can never be taken seriously, bani ta pardayy nei tey sulaa d en dey ren day eh. sMqn kI mihmw kvn vKwnau ] AgwiD boiD ikCu imiq nhI jwnau ] vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Can act as an astar if thrown properly.

Paintball @ Wasaga Date: Saturday, November 15th, 2003 Time: 07:30 AM - N/A Location: Wasaga Paintball Description: All Toronto area Sangat aged 16+ is invited to attend this paintballing trip, most likely to be the last trip before the extreme cold hits. Rides will be leaving at 7:30 AM from Sri Singh Sahba Malton. Cost: Price is $25/person includes paintball gun rental, and 100 paintballs. Additional paintballs can be purchased for $10 for 100 balls or $80 for 1000. All Sangat is encouraged to attend. Contact Info: Phone: Navtej (Goldy) Singh @ (416)994-0804 Email: Rakhbir Singh @ ranabassi@# Sign up online @: Sign Up Form Click Here

I'm guessing that mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan and SinghisKing also feel that Akali Maharaaj Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was coward when they too bowed before the hukam of punj and left the battle of Chamkaur.

I think many of you mistook and not fully understood Miss/Mrs/Mr R. Dorothy Wayneright (who from herein will be known as D.W for ease of typing) post(s). The real debate is not whether science is the end all and know of all science as Khalsa Soulja indicated in his post, nor is it a post in terms of Science over Faith as I personally found from the posts by MKhalsa. Rather D.W was refuting a scientific claim posted within this thread (first post). Khalsa provided an essay on hair, which was not well written for this type of argument as it took a bias from an early point. Khalsa Soulja did make a good point that their is no such thing as writing without a bias however many times or not, scientific papers the goal is to educate without bias by showing both sides of the story and in the end leave it up to the reader to decide. Rather then showing your bias and then proving it. Just felt like adding my two cents as I was bored. Anyways God Bless you all and may all you radiate with the divine light.

Re: Guru ji's Saskaar seva Author: Onkar Singh Date: 09-29-03 15:18 Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!!! We had a meeting over the weekned and the day was set for the seva. The schedule is as follows: DAY: OCTOBER 18 Location: Dixie gurughar (Ontario Khalsa Darbar) in Guru Gobind Singh Stadium. Time From 12:00 to 5:00 pm. The actual saskaar seva will start around 1:30 pm. For your info the general details of the seva is; angeeda sahib will be ready with Chandoa sahib hanging inside by 11:30 am. The Guru ji's saroops will be brought around 1:15 pm and placed on the bed inside angeeda sahib in a vertical upright position. Pure desi ghee will be poured on the saroop. After that Saroops will be covered with clean cotton sheet and fire will lighted. It takes about 3-4 hours for the seva to complete. The whole seva in held in the presence of Panj Piares and during the 3-4 hours time, simran and shabad jaap is done. i have a DVD of actual seva being done at Goindwal sahib and the sangat doing simran is worth seeing (Lots of bliss on their faces). OCTOBER 19: AMRIT SANCHAR will be held at Dixie Gurughar starting at 7:00 am. The ashes will be collected and the Angeeda sahib will be washed. If any body have more question please be free to contact me any time. A REQUEST: I humbly request every one to come on the seva day and bring along all your friends. Please wear Kesri dastaars or dupattas. Also If any body have materials with bani written on it please contact us . We also need volunteers to collect the gurbani. If somebody wants to do the seva, please let us know ASAP. It is our personal duty to r espect gurbani as much as possible and if we see any newspaper or flyer or a piece of garbage <[NOTE: Of course anything with bani written on it can not be considered garbage, but any crumpled up peices of paper, or newsprint you find lying WITH garbage that have bani on them, that would be and can be mistaken to be garbage by non gursikhs]> with bani wipe it and keep it in a clean bag and we will collect later. This is a long term seva and we will keep you informed. Please contact us @: Sajokhalsa@yahoo.com Bhai Onkar Singh @ 905-451-9345 (416-258-0103 cell) Bhai Jagbir Singh @ 905-696-0526 (416-471-2001 cell) Bhai Jasdev Singh @ 905-264-9540 Bhai Amritpal Singh @ 905-453-8219 Waheguru ji ka khalsa!! Waheguru ji ki fateh!!!!! Aap ji da veer Panth Da Daas, Onkar Singh

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw! vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!! A month or two ago I posted that Sant Jarnail Singhs katha will soon be available, it now is @ GursikhiJeevan.com