UKLondonSikh

Indira started it ... as a convenient little way to mentally kill off Sikh youth ... without them showing up on Justice Khalra type lists. However, i'm afraid that the Badals are complicit in it continuing to expand. We as Sikhs have the power to stamp it out if we are united in our resolve to tackle the issue. By keeping the youth spaced out the Badals and Amrinder Singh types + their cronies can rob + plunder Punjab's resources without much protest and I daresay take a cut from all the drug dealers (so-called chemists) pushing for them in broad daylight on high streets (as opposed to council estates). Let's not forget the profit that Pakistan's ISI earns out of supplying the drugs across the Indian-Pakistan border in the first place. There are a lot of players profiting from the drugs menace in Punjab. The victims as always are Sikhs. Some root causes of the problem are this wretched Punjabiyat culture that we need to de-link from asap and the fact that if a person has no knowledge of Sikhi and the blessings we have of just having 2 eyes, 2 arms, 2 hands and 2 feet ... these weak-minded nominally "born Sikhs" get depressed when they can't get a job ... due to Indira/Khalistan/Badal's triple teaming to setback industry in Punjab whereas other states like Gujarat power forward. Additionally the 33% SC population in Punjab that for long have been discriminated against by other Sikhs, landowner's (false) notions of pride in a fast evolving global economy and the huge migrant influx that work for peanuts (but are not welcomed into the Sikh Panth) all combine to give a potent mix of addicts. In a nutshell, only Sikhi can provide the solution and only Sikhs that care can do it. An honest Punjab Police would help.

Bruv I'm not really gana respond to the majority of this as I believe your words speak for themselves ... but I would like to clarify that me + WLS Paji haven't got any spat going on whatsoever. If we disagree on an individual matter, we do so respectfully for constructive purposes for our mutual better understanding of a topic and more importantly with the best outcome for our Qaum in mind. Do you agree with me in my discussion with WLS that there is no harm in referring to Guru Kabir Ji particularly from the point of view of encouraging up to 40million Julaha's throughout India who revere Kabir Ji Maharaj as we do to come within the wider family of Sikhi? Let's keep it constructive on important issues like the sentence above bro ... no point in getting all in a tizz over my thoughts upon Muslim Jatts + Hindu Jatts! :-) Peace!

MS1NGH Paji great ideas (not too sure re buying farmland). N30Singh ... only further things i'd add from yesterday would be "ke SGGS Ji saday dhill de Maharaj ne" so we don't perhaps need "flash" outward signs of royalty though of course Maharaj has to be elevated above us and in appropriately clean surroundings. As for youth Gurdwara idea ... i think we'd be guilty of splintering ourselves off too then ... but perhaps it could be a revolutionary way to kick sense into the older divided managements ... and 1day it really could happen as the majority of decent youth are sick of disunity within the Panth for pathetic reasons. If political differences of opinion are there that's fair enough but the existing separate Gurdwaras are simply unjustifiable + have to be merged somehow before the next generation is brainwashed into accepting this apartheid nonsense.

I also think the youth have got to bombard the UK Sikh Council, Sikh Channel + Sangat Tv with our thoughts about this ... because positive change has occurred re beadbi ... so if we could highlight this agenda ... then the old-timers might just get the message at how badly they have dragged our Qaum's name into the dirt by splintering the honest Sangat. Non-UK Sikhs like N30S1NGH i'm sure you can address your relavant bodies in Mississauga, SurreyBC etc too.

Definitely Paji (kaljugi) mentoring is something we need to make compulsory at our Gurdwara like on N30S1NGH 's "Dream Gurdwara" thread. Influencing youngsters straying off the tracks in a non-judgemental way without excessive expectation of them becoming Amritdhari will really move us forward. I think that if we realise that true Amritdhari qualities can only really be exhibited in the top 1% at best ... then we will realise why only 5 Gursikhs stood up out of a sangat of fifty thousand. The key ingredient for a greater Amritdhari population who match the qualities of having a heart "overflowing with love" (and to stand out in a crowd) that Guru Gobind Singh Ji expected of them ... is a greater pool of Sehajdhari brothers and sisters that believe in the basics. We can hardly expect any Khalsay in countries like Iraq overnight, can we? But the Panj Pyaaray's individual backgrounds as 80% non-Punjabi's prove (despite the Sangat in 1699 congregating in Punjab which on paper ought to have perhaps meant a greater percentage of Punjabi's amongst the beloved five) that Sikhi is a universal message and that with the suffering going on globally at present ... we need a new Khalsa Fauj for this day + age to be re-activated under the auspices of the UN.

Disagree with you on that 11Gurus1Jot Paji. Let the other mob have their 20 stations each. Let them waste half a million a month funding them, whilst we as the smaller community out-smart them by channelling our limited (non-Saudi or American subsidized) resources into a united channel and by doing so we preserve more of our Sangat's money for more important purposes like actually helping people in need (regardless of their faith). There ain't no comparison between what Sikhi is about and what the other lot advocate. Them lot would rather see the whole world as their faith but the gareeb be starving in the meantime. We would rather eliminate hunger, child poverty, malaria and HIV before asking people to examine Sikhi. But that joker Naik is definitely a man whose ideas+vision needs to be observed and learnt from where usefully applicable. He's a fraud and he knows Islam is false but his dedication to an Islamic Empire ruling the world is inspirational in a weird way! If all of us can be as dedicated to spreading Sikhi for Sarbat dha Bhalla as he is to pimping Islam for global domination + purely political objectives ... we'll actually get somewhere in the remainder of this decade.

SatSriAkaal (N30S1NGH) Paji that was an excellent post you made. It makes me mega khush to know that you care so much about Sikhi to think all those superb ideas. Regrettably i can't respond in full right now and simple economics mean that I don't intend to contribute to this forum at the same rate as this weekend in the future (as my strong belief is that money is key to effecting the kind of change Sikh philosophy wants to create in society for Sarbat dha Bhalla ... and if we have weak financial ability ourselves ... we are somewhat constrained from pushing forward Sikhi or helping others). I really liked your ideas 1d, 1e(ii), 1f + 2a, 2b +2f. I do however diagree with 4a. I believe that Amritdhari + Sehajdhari have equal claim upon Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... though obviously Sehajdhari Sikhs would need to be thoroughly vetted that they are genuinely committed to Sikhi as for example in Sindh, Pakistan there are hardly any Amritdhari there and hence the Granthi's and Committees are Sehajdhari. Ideally Amritdhari presidents where possible though. A few quick points i'd mention are ... ... that I hate Ragi's getting offered £1 etc in front of SGGS Ji. Committees should pay them upfront or afterwards, as we are the only Panth that has such a strange tradition. I don't like that one bit. The other thing I hate, being from the building trade myself, is that we are spending so much on Gurdwara structures. Case in point Havelock Road Gurdwara and Gravesend costing 17.5 million and 5 million respectively. Guru Sahib taught us that the structure need not be elegant (it was Ranjit Singh who was responsible for Harmandir Sahib in its current form) whilst people on this planet are going hungry. I strongly don't like gold at Harmandir Sahib as a Giani said we should melt it and distribute the funds raised from that to helping the poor+downtrodden globally. I think we should leave fancy-dan houses of worship as the speciality of Hindus, Muslims + Christians and set ourself apart from those peope. To them spending a 100million brings them closer to Sai Baba or Jesus or light-skinned Arabic virgins in Paradise as they proudly proclaim to the world. However, the more we waste on construction costs, without justification, takes us further away from God and Sikhi's true message imho. I don't like the ornate decorative features at certain Gurdwaray particularly when we're in the West. Architecturally they may look nice but we don't need them for spiritual salvation. I think if we could have saved 8 million from the build cost at Havelock Road and 2 million at Gravesend .. and used that 10 million to help poor people around the world in a sustainable way, ParmAathma would be more pleased with our actions according to what Sikhi teaches us. It's like the brother said if we are praying in some warehouse ... our Sikhi is strong because of the SGGS Ji + not the structure. Last few points no paintings in Gurdwara's, no names of Gurdwara's associated with individuals or backgrounds and snooker tables compulsory in gym halls :-) ... in order to attract the youth towards a better way of life as opposed to them playing pool at the Pub. Conscription of youth into activities that assist those around in the local non-Sikh community such as helping disabled kids, or homeless apne ... that stuff will help us as youth stay disciplined and focussed in our life and remember the blessings we enjoy ourselves. No wastage of electricity money on lights on Diwali or Holi or even Gurpurabs ... again the money thus saved to go towards sustainable assistance to those that need the help rather than to blindly copy the Hindus, Muslims+Christians simply for the sake of it. And it would be nice if all framed photo's of Giani Zail Singh could be thrown into the bin as well. Quite what place they had in Gurdwaray (especially before 1984) is beyond me ... But overall in conclusion, Paji you had the best ideas already with what you already suggested and ParmAathma karay that we as a Sangat can one day get the majority of your ideas implemented

11Gurus1Jot this is my position on your reply to ek0Sikh. We all want the same thing. Just differences on how to achieve justice+equality for all.

I agree a lot with what you mention above RebelSingh ... however the fact that we don't ram our faith down other people's throats ... and the fact that we will do sewa not tied to the gareeb people subsequently converting (but purely for the sake of Sarbat dha Bhalla) is what sets us apart from the Muslims+Christians. True that thanks to great GurSikhs like Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha fame ... more Punjabi's realised that Sikhi was the truth in the earlier decades of the 20th century ... but what happened in the past is gone (no point in us crying over spilt milk from the Ranjit Singh era or 1947 or 1984 ... though we can still fight for justice for the 1984 victims) ... but's let's stay in Chardi Kala (knowing that ParmAathma + Sikhi is the truth and that nobody can never stop us if we are united) and realise that the sheer truth of Sikhi can turn the tables on fake religions like Islam and Hinduism that support slavery and caste discrimination respectively. Islam is about political power to rule the world by turning people like the Muslim Jatts and their other converts into the mental slaves of the Arabs, similarly caste discrimination as advocated in Hinduism is there to keep people in their place so that wealthy Hindu's can mistreat the gareeb. Sikhi offers universal freedom, justice and equality for all

Naah mate i meant with respect to (failing) to achieve an independent Khalistan (if indeed that was Bhindrawale's agenda as repeatedly he stated he was neither for it nor against it ... but would take it offered ... which also happens to be my position). Let's say Alex Ferguson can't win the Champions League 10 seasons in a row for Man Utd ... ... do you really think that Terry Connor of Wolves could win 10 CL trophies in the next 10years? So why not invest those transfer funds that Terry Connor would get into instead doing good + setting up football academies for the youth (as an alternative to drugs in the hood) and helping gareeb kids get an education and healthcare? And no I don't for one second criticise spreading awareness of Sikhi amongst our Panth - i respect Bhindrawale's personal dedication to Sikhi in that respect ... but I think 30years after the Muslim Jatts killed 300,000 of our people (10% of the Sikh population at the time) ... we would have done better not to push the Khalistan agenda for Indira ... because that's exactly what she wanted

True if a velvet divorce between India and azad Punjab could be achieved without bloodshed like how Czechoslovakia peacefully divorced into the Czech Republic and Slovakia ... then even I have to admit an azad Punjab would be something no Sikh would likely oppose. But let's get real ... if Punjab splits ... the whole country would disintegrate (which they would never willingly allow) ... I think we can achieve more by getting the Anandpur Sahib resolution adopted and supported by other Indian states ... leading to a Confedaration of independent states similar to the EU or ASEAN. Ie Punjab would be independent sovereign nation, free to set its own food prices ... but still able to sell its products in other independent states (within the EU-like confederation) such as Maharashtra and Gujarat and Bengal ... whilst still having a common defence against Pakistan. That would allow the millions of Sikhs outside of Punjab to remain where they are whilst still allowing us the capacity to spread Sikhi in other parts of the old India. However, let's remember India has 1.2billion non-Sikhs so it won't be an easy task to even convince them of a velvet divorce! But given that all population segments of India are minorities ... for example even Brahmins only number 50 million at best (and Brahmin dominance of GOI is continuing to fade year by year as Yadavs, Jatavs + various OBC communities gain power as evidenced by Congress getting wiped out the last 20 years in Uttar Pradesh) ... Sikhs can achieve more by getting other states on side with demands for greater federalism

Bro I really don't believe that helps us advance as Sikhs (given the bigger issues within the community that we face). I've kind of stated why I believe that would be retrograde on the Khalistan moderates thread. Let's say our Panth raises a million pounds in the West. What would it be better deployed upon? Re-activating the Khalistan issue when the Prime Minister of India, Chief Economist of India, UN Representative Head of Indian Army and 75% of Punjab MLA's + MP's are Sikh or would we achieve more by doing charitable sewa for the poor + downtrodden (regardless of what faith they follow) in the hope that in time people see Sikhi as something that all of India should adopt (whilst also combatting the drugs menace in Punjab and ensuring united Gurdwara's)? But don't get me wrong, I do respect your honesty in wanting the best for the Panth given how it is widely acknowledged that at the very very least 25,000 innocent Sikhs were butchered by the enemy dogs. The figure may well indeed be as high as 250,000 (though i very much hope it was not). My studies lead me to think that 50,000 to 100,000 innocent Sikhs were certainly murdered for sure. That alone is enough to automatically turn every Sikh Khalistani including myself. However, in 2012 ... and given how Sikhs are currently represented ... i think we need to change tack and refrain from returning to the agenda that Bhindrawale ultimately failed with. I'm not gana lie to you ... i actually wince whenever the word Khalistan is mentioned in 2012 on the channels (and that's despite being in support of freedom from the tyranny of the GOI ... as a result of GOI injustice against our quam between 1984+CM Beant Singh's much deserved death)

Yes I think one of the ways to keep ego's sweet via any proposed mergers would be to make sure that the newly merged Gurdwaray don't have a single leader but a council of 5 leading sewadars from each of the Gurdwaray as demographically everyone knows the relative population strengths of each Gurdwara ... but if we had for example Singh Sabha, Ramgarhia, Ravidassia, Bhatra, Mazhabi etc sewadar joint-leaders that would ensure that nobody (hopefully) would have anything to complain about. We need to actively fight the conversion of Mazhabi Sikhs into so-called Balmiki Hindu's ... we all know Bhai Jaita Ji's supreme bravery after Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi ... Ravidassia's need to know that every single Sikh bows down to Guru Ravidas Ji as our present Guru contains Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words ... Similarly, i think people need to know that the Ramgarhia Misl's fighters were historically composed 100% of true Khalsa's without any link to jaath-paath anyway (as they had all shed their old Hindu+Muslim caste identities) ... and that the Ramgarhia Misl ancestry-wise was actually composed of 90% non-tharkhan fighters ... and that was the glory of Sikhi ... that erstwhile Jatts, Khatri's, Saini's, Brahmin's etc all fought under Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgarhia ... because Sikhi was the one faith where all were judged purely on the merit of their ability and actions rather than their background. As for the fear of Jatt domination we need to actively spread the word that the vast majority of Jatts are Muslims + Hindu's and that the majority of Jatts actually hate+despise us Sikhs as proved in 1947+1984. By any means necassary achieving Gurdwara mergers both in the West and more importantly Indian villages is a vital pre-cursor to us having grander visions. So long as we have multi-Gurdwara's based along pathetic lines we can't hold our head up high to explain our faith.

You're totally correct Into the Light ... i just simply cannot understand how faiths which are clearly false ... and had a slaveowner/paedophile running the show have a population 50 times larger than our own. But obviously the power of the sword, rape and forced conversion had something to do with it. However, we need to step up and expand Sikhi from a small currently Punjabi base to a faith that everyone knows offers true solutions for mankind ... and use this joker Zakir Naik as an inspiration in terms of his dedication to (spread) Islam. The more people that come to Sikhi ... the more Sikhs will be able to do sewa for our poorer brothers+sisters in the world (regardless of their faith). If we continue this mentality that its a faith only for kesdhari's or people born into it or Punjabi ... then the 100million Muslim Punjabi's just laugh and spit at us ... as they realise the power of numbers (and unity re the multi-Gurdwara's issue)

True RebelSingh ... the Sikligars, Vanjaras + Nanakpanthi's are only three of many non-Punjabi communities within the fold of Sikhi. As far as I understand Sikligars number around 50,000 in Sri Nanded Sahib ... The majority of the non-Muslim Sindhi population (for example like actor Ranveer Singh + LK Advani's parents) are of Nanakpanthi background which numbers around 3million Sindhi's in India. Unfortunately with 3million being a pretty small minority amongst 1,210 million Indians and Hinduism being the dominant cultures + Nanakpanthi Sikhs mostly being monay ... since 1947-2012 ... a lot of the Nanakpanthi Sikhs have been more culturally assimilated to Hindu's. We don't help the matters ourselves when certain folks amongst us say that mona are not Sikhs. I think the southern Sikhs number about 5 lakh (as opposed to 5 crore which one researcher may have indicated). If we had 50 million southern Sikhs trust me GOI would think twice about messing with such a large vote bank. We Sikhs were dispensable in 1984 as we were 2% population ... but note how Congress have been bending over backwards recently for the Muslims of Uttar Pradesh as Muslims make up close to 20% or 40million in Uttar Pradesh. And very true about the southern Sikhs being very steadfast in their Sikhi ... i don't know if you saw the video by the Scottish Sikh Society a while back perhaps ... but even with them the sad thing is that in Maharashtra ... only 1 person out of 500 there is Sikh ... something I can't get my head when one of the Panj Pyaaray was from there. What I am totally sure of is that 5% of Maharashtra's could become sehajdhari Sikhi ... (so long as we didn't expect everyone to become Amritdhari ... which in the short term would be a bit unrealistic)

Basically RebelSingh the overall point was should there ideally be more Sikhs of all backgrounds in India and across all races in the world or would others suggest "naah let's just keep Sikhi to ourselves ... to those that are born into the faith"? If you agree there should be more Sikhs of all backgrounds, then remember it's easier to reach people through peaceful, friendly, logical persuasion ... rather than to be antagonistic to them as individuals on account of what politicians of their religion may have done. For example, constant Brahmin-bashing hurts our chances of enlightening decent Brahmin folks about Bhai Mati Das & Bhai Sati Das as two of the greatest GurSikhs (shaheeds) ever.

Haha lol RebelSingh ... no of course the Sikligars are only a small minority of Sikhs But yes 80% of the first five Khalsay in the world in 1699 i.e. the Punj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi yes