UKLondonSikh

UK = Just to clarify Paji I didn't mean that you personally were actively taking the enemy line - as your devotion to Sikhi is clear from your excellent post below: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71302-2-easy-ways-of-doing-parchaar-in-gurdwaras/ UK = However, I do believe that our enemies have been successful in implanting false history into our Panth's discourse. VJKK VJFK

^^^^ 100% agree with you above again Genie Paji. The specific enemies you correctly list above are evil enemies we have to destroy by any means necassary. One of the ways to do that is to wipe out there so-called support base by classifying as many people as possible outside of the so-called fold of Hinduism. For example, nobody that is poor is Hindu, those are natural Sikhs even if they might not keep kes. Those that believe in Ishwar, Bhagwan, ThakurJi, Hari etc as God are all Sikh. The whole game our enemies have constructed is of classifying anyone without kes as Hindu so that they can claim to be an 80% majority and thus control 1.25 billion people. The reality is the specific enemies you refer to number no more than 10 million throughout India (not even 1% yet the resources they control are more like 90%). Remember even 80% of Brahmins are actually struggling financially just like most other Indians and just like Mehtab Singh Paji and Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji to name a few, my sincere belief is that even 80% of Brahmins would naturally be ready to embrace the Truth of Sikhi, particularly if we welcome them initially as Sehajdhari Sikhs. Sikhi makes sense because it's the Truth and dedicated to Sarbat dha Bhalla. It offers justice and equality and freedom to all. The more we grow our numbers by any method (primary of which is pyaar and seva) the more our adversaries will tremble.

Koi = Bhai Sahib, while I do not entirely disagree with your notion that "our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again", I believe you've missed the point: Gurmukh Aaye Jaaye Nisang. Gurmukhs can come and go as they please! You're right, they do not have to come again, they choose to. UK = I agree with the essence of what you mean to say Koi Paji. I merely disagree that they happened to come back as stated in your previous post. To me it very much devalues the bravery and Bibek Buddhi of our Panj Pyaaray. Furthermore, billions of poor people living in slums exploited by today's Capitalist Mughal fatcats and tens of millions of HIV orphans and billions of malnourished children around the World ... if ever we needed more Gurmukhs the time is now. Koi = Again bro, I think you've misinterperated my point. I only mentioned the Bhagat Kabir incedent as it is mentioned in Katha of various mahapurash (Sant Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib etc.) and other sources. UK = Personally Paji i find it hard to reconcile myself to Sants who make such striking presumptions regarding our beloved (Highest of the High) "Authors" (if we can even call them that) of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The truest definition of Mahapursh are our Bhagats. Koi = As for your "Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit", if you believe all Gurus to be one in the same, then they did take amrit in their tenth form (not to mention taking Charan Pahul from Guru nanak Dev Ji, goes without saying). UK = Absolutely, our Guru Sahib are the same jyot (which includes Kabir Ji Maharaj) ... but that's why I referenced others citing such arguments against us and how offended that would make us feel. By the way I don't believe that Pahul was administered by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the form history books would literally have us believe but that is a small point in the wider issue. Koi = Brother, please can you tell me what your take is on the 17 Bhatts being incarnations of the 4 Vedas (4 incarnations per Ved) and Brahma? This is from the Faridkot Steek, Sampardaaee Steek (Ameer Bhandar), Katha of various Mahapursh etc. UK = In a literal sense of physical reincaranations, I don't believe in it. In a metaphorical sense, yes Bhatt Bani does encapsulate the percentage of truthful essence contained within the Vedas. UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Indar was a rapist, was he not? Koi = I did not say that I endorse this view at all, it was just a point of belief of some Akali Nihangs. Koi = As far as Indar goes, please could you provide the example? UK = Thanks for clarifying Paji that you don't endorse the viewpoint of certain Nangs who rely on cannabis as a means of avoiding practical warfare in today's day and age. Regarding Hinduism famous Indar Devta, yes I understand he raped Ahalya - whom Brahma had created as the wife for Gautam Rishi ... so the Nang Niddar type ideology linking Hinduism's famous Indar Devta to the Sahibzade is quite clearly utterly ridiculous. Koi = Bro, while I respect Chowk Mehta Taksal, please don't assume that I took the reasoning directly from there. UK = I accept what you say Paji as obviously Chowk Mehta Taksal are not the only jatha that hold the similar view. Koi = While I have given questions here, I appreciate this may derail the original thread. As such, if UKLondonSikh Ji (or anyone else) would like to continue the discussion in that direction, please can I suggest the opening of a new thread? UK = Actually Paji, it's all good so long as the discussion is with pyaar it all helps disseminate the OP more widely that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith so no worries :-)

Gurdeep Paji ... saaree insaaniath da "natural" Marg Sikhi 'ah ... because it's indisputably and provably the Truth for Sarbat dha Bhalla. It's we who are pushing people away rather than welcoming them into the Panth. All Dalits across India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are natural born Sikhs (not just the few recently in Madhya Pradesh) ... but though Madhya Pradesh was a beacon of hope on the horizon we are letting Indira's legacy flourish through Dera Ballan ... who want to take 3million Sikhs out of Sikhi. The above Gurdwara management has merely alienated one family. RSS Durga Pujari's, Congress and the Dera's want to prevent Crores of Kabirpanthi's, Jatavs, Dalits, Sanatani's etc from joining their natural home within the Sikh Panth.

UK = Paji whilst it's true that presently Chowk Mehta Taksal believe the above to be true, Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji only had faith in our Guru Sahib that was in front of them - namely Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and then Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The concept of thinking up previous lives of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was one engineered by anti-Sikh forces as a way of distracting and weakening our mental attachment to what Vaisakhi 1699 was all about as well as weakening the Panth's attachment to the true undisputed message that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj delivered during Guru Sahib's GurGaddi UK = Waljinder Singh Ji please I humbly request you not to believe these lies aimed by anti-Sikh authors against our Guru Sahib. I'm shocked by the age of 9 being thrown around for the anti-Gurmat tales. For the avoidance of doubt I probably have as much faith in Sri Chaupai Sahib as you do but please instead of what you have mentioned above I would simply say that what happened at Sri Anandpur Sahib is worthy of greater intellectual and spiritual focus. UK = Sister Gurpreet Kaur, these are not facts, these are merely speculations and a matter for individual sharda (if you do happen to insist on believing them). Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji Maharaj never once accepted any allegation of previous lives in the service of the Hindu Maa Durga nor did Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji accept any kind of parallel parkash in their lifetime when Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth

Aujla Sahib assi kaun hunnay ah kaiin nu kay ohna da vishwaas nayhee haii Sikhi vich? Like I said it boils down to a battle of numbers. One side is saying everyone belongs to Hinduism. The other party wants to restrict the definition of who is Sikh to as small a population as possible. We can't then complain when we are on the receiving end of repeated human rights abuses as we saw in 1947 and 1984. If we Sikhs were even a 25% minority nobody would dare step against us. Odds of 3 to 1 we can handle (sava lakh di gal aj kal dhay zamaanay vich pulljao). But 1.8% of the Indian population is not good odds. 0.9% in UK+Canada. And I'm including the 90% Sehajdhari majority to reach just those figures. Minorities of the kind you envisage will not influence the World for Sarbat dha Bhalla in any meaningful way unless we change our strategy to gain a critical population mass.

UK = I 100% agree with u Singh559 Paji. Additionally, we need to loosen the reigns as a community on who our Sons can marry. This whole concept anout not marrying Muslim women only refers to those who actively believe in Slavery and the rest of Prophet Muhammad's beliefs. As for those women of Muslim parentage who wish to come to Sikhi we should make it more widely known that Bhai Mardana Ji was the first Sikh in history and that Sikhi is the only faith which is explicit about complete male/female equality. We should support couples where a female of Muslim parentage wants to marry a Sikh partner rather than lecturing the guy that Sikhs shouldn't do that when the female is willing to marry in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

UK = VHS Paji don't believe that for a second. It's simply anti-Sikh propaganda pumped out by our enemies. In 1947 the Muslims butchered and hacked to death over 300,000 innocent Sikhs. Imagine Delhi on November 1st 1984 multiplied by a hundred. And our enemies have the gall to accuse even a single member of our Panth of colluding with the "other" worse butchers of our Qaum!? It's flabbergasting how clever our enemies are at propaganda UK = Genie Paji i totally agree with you. But we must not forget that prior to 1960's language issue that crystallised the definition of what are Hindu Punjabi's these same so-called Hindu Punjabi's overwhelmingly attended Gurdwaray (and were thus Sikh). Via Saada Haq and disseminating other facts such as that for every innocent Hindu killed by Muhammad Azhar Alam's Black Cats for Indira's propagnada purposes against Sikhs ... one hundred times more innocent Sikhs were killed the tide can turn in our favour. Therefore via pyaar and logic and acceptance of them in the main as initially Sehajdhari Sikhs a majority of so-called Hindu Punjabi's in 2013 can easily become members of the Sikh Panth if we don't view ALL of them as our enemies but restrict our opposition to our specific RSS+Sena type enemies.

We need to push the agenda forward to what is a practical meaningful "Memorial" in memory of our Shaheeds. If we increase literacy and decrease female infanticide and drugs useage in Punjab (as the 2013 Ghallugharay for males and females respectively) then our enemies will truly be fearful. The only reason a minority hate us is because they fear the revolutionary capability of Sikhi to bring justice to all humanity. At the moment they they think that we've spent x-amount of funds constructing a physical structure which mentions the names of certain Shahheds that Hindutva terrorism wrongly besmirches. However, we need to remember that our Shaheeds didn't really want their names mentioned but wanted Sarbat dha Bhalla and Sikhi di Chardi Kallah. And only an increase in schools, hospitals, drug rehabilitation centres and wiping out the curse of female infanticide would be a fitting respectful yaadgaar for our Shaheeds. Increased education and 100% literacy within the Panth will automatically ensure we never forget the several Ghallugharay we have been made to suffer by the Mughals+Congress as well as the present ones that we are suffering from.

This is another version of what happened in the UK at Swindon Gurdwara. By virtue of bowing before Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj the so-called "Hindu" family were in fact declaring themselves to be Sikh who would have become part of the Panth. But the same individuals that prevented their Anand Karaj are effectively the biggest Hindutva agents out there as they wish to see Sikhi remain for as small and tiny a population as possible - as obviously the smaller a population, the easier it is to stamp on the human rights of a small and tiny minority amidst 7,000 million people in the World. Our RSS enemies class anyone with a pulse as Hindu, yet many amongst us in Badal-influenced leadership positions try to deliberately limit who is defined as a Sikh. It's clear who will win in the long term if those two ideological mindsets remain. Like I said regarding Swindon in the UK last year: I don't see the stopping of Anand Karaj marriages at the last minute by locking the gates as something to celebrate. To me I feel like we are shooting ourself in the foot and then congratulating ourself about it. The couple, in every single case, will get married regardless. Therefore, the issue rests on two main things. Firstly, what defines an ordinary Sikh (as opposed to what constitutes true Amritdhari GurSikh). The historical definition of an ordinary Sikh was any person who bows down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. That obviously does not match precisely with current Rehit Maryada. However, when the Akal Takht Jathedar awards the title Panth Rattan Fakr-e-Qaum to PS Badal (or when the Jathedar gave a siropa to General Dwyer of Jallianwala Bagh massacre fame) as opposed to Justice Khalra then we need to be very vigilant that the Akal Takht jathedars place SGGS Ji's definition of a Sikh first rather than the modern definition which seeks to limit the number of Sikhs and thereby constrain our collective power as an enlarged but United Panth. Therefore, if two people bow down in full sharda before SGGS Ji Maharaj (and only ParmAathma can know the true sharda within someone's heart) then to all intents and purposes they are both clearly Sikhs (the fraudsters can also be exposed by having to confirm that they condemn gender inequality as espoused in the Bible, Quran etc). I wholeheartedly agree with the general direction of Luton Gurdwara's approach on a couple showing commitment to Sikhi (in fact we could even the extend that approach by widening it to all couples and to our Qaum's positive advantage by way of getting all Punjabi folks to adopt Singh and Kaur as their surnames). Secondly, given that in each case the couple are getting married anyway ... we need to work out if it is better for us to alienate and lose two people humble enough to bow down to SGGS Ji Maharaj or should we in fact strive to ensure that they understand the fundamental truths behind including Singh and Kaur in their names and make a commitment that their children will be named so as well. Our Guru is fundamentally beyond Beadbi on a spiritual level. Of course, we ourselves as Sikhs should never deliberately commit Beadbi but to extend the definition of Beadbi to include the Laavan - arguably the happiest moment of these couple's lives - when clearly they are receiving blessings simply to be in the presence of SGGS Ji Maharaj is something I have serious doubts about. We definitely need to be vigilant in applying serious vetting when it comes to male grooms of aggressively proselytising Abrahamic faiths but we need to encourage others to maintain and strengthen their links to Sikhi not for the sake of our opinions on Beadbi but for the sake of the children of such marriages feeling welcome within the Panth rather than ostracised away from Sikhi. Make no mistake, so-called mixed marriages will double from the levels of 2012 within just this decade alone ... we need to decide what's the right approach for the future right now ... copying Christians, Muslims and Jews ... all religions which condone Slavery ... should not be the way ... as if we had taken the time to engage with the Swindon groom ... any person would logically conclude that Sikhi is the truth in comparison to one of the Abrahamic faiths which condone Slavery. Our Dera enemies are loving the approach taken at Swindon. Because just like how they mop up sehajdhari's due to our kattar-dha they will be at the forefront of encouraging such marriages in an effort to discredit Sikhi. By ourselves complicitly + willingly limiting the number of future Sikhs, we have to be careful we don't inadvertently commit a bigger Beadbi against SGGS Ji Maharaj when it is a Universal message of Truth which needs a greater audience for Sarbat da Bhala. I also have respect for everyone who wishes to uphold Rehit Maryada but I think we need to seriously think outside of the box on this matter because mixed marriages will only double and treble in the coming years. Either we can de facto get smaller and smaller as a Panth and limit the definition of a Sikh to as small a minority as possible (like our enemies want to see us do) or we can try to widen the audience of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj for the sake of the greater good of the whole of humanity.

@ Jonny Paji ... Bilcul kissay nay ay nayhee kay'ah kay Sikh Panth Langar da prabandh nayhee kar rayah haii laykin sirf kay assi ik "expenditure" hohr vi seva vaal lah sak'dhay ah (and Paji you have to tell me how you manage to type in Gurmukhi and what the program you have is!? :-) Essentially the point being not that the Sikh Panth doesn't do seva - we all know that Sikh Panth does more seva in India than all the Mandirs, Masjids and Churches combined - however, nevertheless when it comes to gold, marble, construction costs on new Gurdwaray (particularly in the West), using milk for cleaning etc, etc we have to be very careful not to lose sight of our primary focus of uplifting the oppressed and downtrodden ... rather than succumbing to the same issues that the Hindu's, Muslims and Christians are guilty of - namely that the Hindu's, Muslims and Christians often look at what looks good for "dakhaavah" first ... instead of tackling statistics like the fact that 47% of children in India suffer from a degree of malnutrition as the first issue as Guru Sahib has commanded us to do.

Jonny Paji i'm glad we agree in essence. I think that's the key to our Panth's onward progress in all issues facing us. Let's all of us Sangat continue to stress and highlight the issues on which it is automatic and natural for us to be in total Unity and keep other smaller issues on the back burner. One issue that I am confident Sant Samaj, Badal, Sarbhjit Singh Dhunda, Panthpreet Singh Khalsa and all on this forum can all be 100% united on is to push Professor Bhullar Sahib's beliefs on the East Punjab debts waiver that Delhi racked up pursuing the Genocide of Sikhs most aggressively between 1980 and Beanta's fitting death. So these dogs butcher our innocent people and then lump ensuing generations of mostly Sikh youth with the noose of state debt for that - thereby stifling economic growth in Punjab as a consequence as well as increasing poverty and encouraging the drugs menace to boot. If we can convert our energies on the Professor Bhullar injustice to simultaneously raising a 25million strong petition on the waiver of East Punjab debts then with a bit of luck we might just get Manmohan Singh to convince Sonia to go along it before the next Indian election.

UK = Paji i hear you. It's my sincere belief that Dhunda Sahib cannot be in the same boat as Sant Samaj on this issue. He's always vocal about the Genocides and injustices meted out against our Qaum. The Kesri Lehar concept has 100% support amongst the Qaum and I think we shouldn't assume that if a youtube clip with such a subject heading is not always quickly accessible that it necassarily means opposition to the same (as you rightly clarified in Bhai Ranjit Singh's case). UK = Paji i totally agree with you that ekta is the need for the moment. But if we have pyaar amngst us then even debate cannot weaken our bonds. Obviously I have a totally opposite viewpoint to you on that issue but as your brother within the Panth i have total 100% faith in your sincerity and love for Sikhi ... so I would always stand alongside you and brothers like GPS Paji and DSG Paji for the advancement of our Panth's bigger objectives. Paji please give your thoughts on another thread regarding the waiver of East Punjab's debts if you can as I believe if we as a Panth unite on that easy objective which no GurSikh can oppose we can uplift millions of Sikhs (and others) out of poverty and that ought to help fade smaller issues that have gained prominence since 1977 even more into the background.

@ Jonny Paji ... bilcul thuhadi gal sehi haii kay jadho Langar ... pher keri gal raiindhi 'ah ... laykin Paji ay'hee thah kintoo parantoo waalay kaiire ne ke Langar tho vi zyaadhah assi kar sakde 'ah thay Gurdware'ah tho baar vi saanu Langar da inthazaam karna chai'dhah ... thay jinnah vadh tho vadh dudh assi gareeb nu devageh ohno hi Bhalla ho'oo. Punjab de pindah vich thusi aap hi dhekhe'ah ho'oo kay aj kal gareeba nu dhudh vasthay paise kut ne. Paillah kadhi ehda nai si :-( Sun Singh some very valid points ... but in the age of pressure cleaners and steam cleaners which require no chemicals ... it might be worth us as a Panth re-considering what to use for cleaning marble ... and agreed that only positive actions in line with Gurmat can cleanse sins from our soul (rather than taking a dip in the Ganges or anywhere else).

UK = rrss Paji thank you so much for your input to this topic. I totally agree with what you say but most specifically the part about the World desperately needing a new 21st century Khalsa Fauj to protect the weak and ensure that no Genocides (which numerically have been worse than our own) such as Rwanda or in DR Congo should ever be allowed to happen again. This needs to be instituted via the UN with Khalsay leading forces to help prevent genocides and to assist in disasters like Haiti etc. I personally would not feel comfortable serving in the British Army but I wouldn't have a problem serving in an international fauj with a Khalsa commanding officer and I know that we as a Panth have the potential to do this and to see the bigger picture that we as Sikhs are not the only ones suffering in this world.

UK = Samosa Sahib if you see some people acting in the wrong way, yet representing the Panth on a platform, it's up to you and me and everyone to make our presence felt. We can't back away because someone insincere is running things. It's up to us to peacefully seize that mantle and push the agenda of Sikhi - which is Sarbat dha Bhalla - forward. There definitely is a Panth. I'm not on the forum too often and obviously we all have our different views but I find great strength in knowing that the vast majority of my brothers and sisters on the forum want the Chardi Kallah of Sikhi. UK = VHS Paji your humility clearly shines through and I respect that. However, i have to strongly tell you that too much humility can be a bad thing too (in your case). Having read your posts for over a year, I can strongly say you should not be restricting yourself to barthan and jutheeyah seva alone. I agree that at one level that is purest non-hankaari form of seva ... but if you don't influence bigger things at your Gurdwara ... for example, are Sangat's Golak donations going to go to help those gareeb in the Third World (instead of being frittered away in classic Punjabi style) ... or promoting your Gurdwara's initiatives in laying the foundation towards merging several Gurdwaray in a particular locality ... or avoiding excessive expenditure upon the physical shell of a Gurdwara ... when that money would be better directed to combatting female infanticide or increasing literacy back in Punjab and elsewhere (as examples of two better objectives) ... or whether we should we lock the gates of our Gurdwara when two people want to get married or should we encourage people to come towards Sikhi through whichever small steps they wish to take? All of these issues, i daresay, could benefit from your input at your Gurdwara rather than staying out of the "dirty" politics to stay crystal "pure" as the Khalsa Panth should be. --------- Our Panthic duty is to follow Gurmat philosophy summed up as being Sarbat dha Bhalla, encouraging others to join with this motto and for us to have ekta and hamdardi with others within the Panth with whom me might not always 100% agree. This is a deep topic which has a lot to be said about it but instead I would just briefly like to say that an even bigger issue than Professor Sahib's sentence is the vital need for PM Manmohan Singh to waive all of East Punjab debts that were run up by Delhi in the years between 1980 and Beanta's death as a result of the Genocide of the Sikh Panth. This is something Manmohan Singh needs to deliver for the Panth before leaving office and the waiver of all debts can lift millions of East Punjabi's out of poverty, out of illiteracy, out of the drugs swamp and into active employment so that they can contribute daswand for Sarbat Dha Bhalla. Because this was one of the things Professor Bhullar was vocal upon is precisely the reason the enemy tried to frame him. Thankfully all 133 witnesses now unequivocally state that he was not present at the bombing in question. We got 8.1 million signatures for the Insaaf March ... we should target 25million signatures to Delhi on the waiver of debts from the period when the Genocide was taking place most aggressively. In the UK i'm confident we have Kesri Lehar to push this waiver of historic East Punjab debts, Insaaf March have shown their organisation with 8.1million signatures in India recently ... so to Canadian, American, New Zealand, Australian and other Diaspora Sikhs like N30Singh, Mehtab Singh, Singh4Peace, Singh559, LuckySingh99, Singher23, SabnaKeerenka, 13Mirch, JSinghnz etc, etc which ekta-based organisations do you have in your countries to organise along the lines of Kesri Lehar in the UK and the Insaaf March? As this is how we can turn the SC rejecting Professor Bhullar's petition to the forward advancement of our Panth's quest for ongoing justice.

UK = Paji this is what our enemies want you to believe. As it destroys their perpetual lies against our Guru's supposedly marrying according to the Hindu+Muslim caste rules surrounding them. Furthermore, there are historians who state that even prior to Mata Gujjar Kaur ... anti-Sikh authors in the employ of the Mughals deliberately stated non-Khatri spouses as being Khatri as they feared the revolution that Sikhi would bring upon the Islamic Empire if we as a Panth were to fully unite. First these anti-Sikh authors in the employ of the Mughals doctor the history of our Guru's ... then they claim Sikhi is a Punjabi faith (our Panj Pyaaray destroy that myth completely) ... then these anti-Sikh authors claim the Sikh faith to be a Jatt religion (despite 80% of Jatts being Muslim+Hindu and Muslim Jatts and Hindu Jatts being at the forefront of butchering our Sikh community in 1947+1984) .... and the 2011 caste census likely to show that those of Jatt tribal ancestry are actually less than 50% of the Panth's demographic strength. Paji, honestly don't believe these wretched history books written by Mughal sychophants. UK = Garch Paji, prior to this, nine times out of ten I've usually agreed with your posts. On this matter I have to strongly disagree with you. The answer to your question is no ... it's not possible to claim to be anti-caste (as Sikhi/Gurmat advises us to be) and then insist or prefer your daughter to marry into the same biraderi so that society can see you've moved married her into the same social standing. That's a hollow excuse to perpetuate the Hindu+Muslim caste system as advised in Hinduism via Manu Smritri and obviously Prophet Muhammad was clear cut that noble parental ancestry (ie so-called high or low caste) is one of the most important issues to consider in who to marry. Vasakhi 1699 clearly shows that societal standing is of no importance. We all know who was the higher of Bhai Lalo and Malik Bhago. Who was the higher of some cowardly Muslim from the elite Mughal caste or Bhai Jaita Ji? Why did the Muslims spit at the Sikhs for Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji being appointed the leader of our Sikh Fauj due to his parents working with leather or because our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj contains mere words from a "Chamar" who according to them was not as high as the Qureshi caste. There should be no social grouping divisions amongst the Panth and no bakhre bakhre Gurdwaray. The fastest way to get to that vision of Begumpura is by encouraging marriages across social boundaries ... rather than encouraging it's continuation till the point that we are in a minority in Punjb itself ... which if we don't end jaath-paath discrimination in matrimonials asap could occur in less than 8years from now in the 2021 Punjab census.

UK = Paji, the whole Panth is 100% united in favour of innocent Professor Sahib being released. The whole Panth regards Bhai Rajoana and Bhai Jagtar Singh Hawara with the greatest of respect for sacrificing their own lives in order to protect those of the innocent. UK = Sarbjit Singh Khalsa and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa are merely opposed for considering the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib in 1699 to be more central in the reckoning of Sikh history than the supposed figure of "Dusht Daman" (concept ... rather than actual name) in relation to the Hindu Maa Durga in Uttaranchal near Sri Hemkhunt Sahib. Below you can see their positions on Bhai Rajoana and Professor Bhullar quite clearly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrHRUw7CHM And yet these two parcharaks Sarabhjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa are accused of being the biggest threats to Sikhi because they focus on eliminating jaath-paath, ending female infanticide, the drugs menace and literacy as core issues. Sikhi can never be destroyed if we as a Panth have full ekta on the fundamental issues that count and debate with pyaar and satkaar when it comes to lesser issues which should not lead to violence within the Panth.

UK = Koi Paji, i respect your right to your above belief and I don't want to derail this thread away from the original emphasis that all of us Sangat need to propagate more widely the information that Sikhi is not a Punjabi faith but a Universal Truth for Sarbat dha Bhalla. UK = However, i wanna strongly communicate to you how strongly offended I am that any Sikh let alone Jathedar from Chowk Mehta could be presumptious as to claim that our Bhagats who were completely mukht from duality were incarnated again!? I'm shocked but not angry with you - you're a fellow brother in the Panth and that comes first but I humbly request that you consider the opposite viewpoint which can never imagine our holy Bhagats being incarnated again. UK = I absolutely agree with u Lucky Singh Paji. UK = Dhan Dhan (Guru) Kabir Ji Maharaj were already amongst the Highest of the High when Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj referred to Kabir Ji Maharaj as one of the Saints the dust beneath whose feet we mere Sikhs are not at the spiritual level. Can you imagine how we would feel if someone said that Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj had to come back for Amrit? Honestly Paji, ask yourself deep down. UK = Koi Paji, those with infinite kamai are those that became mukht from duality and merged with The One. I understand your reasoning that by claiming all great Sikhs were Hindu Mahapursh's in previous lives, in your reasoning, gives them extra stature but I would humbly and politely say to you with respect that this detracts from the greatness and maha Bibek Buddhi of our greatest examples from the Panth. No wonder the RSS waaly are delighted when every great figure from the Sikh Panth is interpreted by some like yourself as being Hindu Mahapursh reincarnated. UK = Frankly Paji, i have to respectfully say to you that I regard this as an insult of our Sahibzade. Inder was a rapist, was he not? UK = VHS Paji as a neutral yourself in the debate over whether Sri Anandpur Sahib and Vasakhi is more central to what Sikhi is about rather than the historical reasoning given for the construction of our breathtaking GuruGhar at Sri Hemkhunt Sahib ... i am glad you highlighted the dangers of Koi Paji's line of reasoning - which obviously Koi Paji got direct from his reverence for Chowk Mehta Taksal. UK = However Paji, respectfully, if you believe that something is wrong and illogical - for example, for some to claim that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's lifetime outside of the timeframe of 1666-1708 is actually actually relavant or provable (other than the false speculation it is authored by anti-Sikh forces) then I'd strongly urge you not to see deficiences in yourself as a consequence of your believing in Gurmat. Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji were the biggest proponents in favour of Gurmat and propagating the "mission" of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. No section of the Panth has exclusive rights upon the legacy of Baba Deep Singh Ji Maharaj (though of course I realise that you are not one of those making such a claim). UK = Again Lucky Singh Paji i totally agree with you. The indefensible simply cannot be defended. Unfortunately many of our sincere Gursikh brothers and sisters have bought into the above lines of reasoning and we can only win them over to the pro-Gurmat position via pyaar and logic. Every single thing within Sikhi is 100% logical and every single thing we do should be based on the logical application of Gurmat for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Blind faith is the same pathetic excuse used by the Christians and Muslims for their murder of tens of millions via Slavery and various religious Genocides. Sikhi is a totally different Marg based upon indisputable Truth for the welfare of all (as opposed to blind faith ... for the benefit of a few).

Chatanga Paji i totally feel your pain (and the whole Panth feels this pain collectively) at the deliberate destruction of so many Gurdwaray by Punjabi Muslims and loss of our control over so many Gurdwara's in the very land which was very much the original cradle of Sikhi. However, the following is, briefly, my strongly held opinion about the allocation of resources to unused Gurdwara's in Pakistan. I feel we shouldn't spend any funds on maintaining the physical shells of empty Gurdwaray in Pakistan. All resources allocated to Sikhi in Pakistan should focus on ensuring maintenance of legal title to the surrounding lands (and preventing trespass) from which an income is garnered from Pakistani tenant farmers and the like. All funds re Pakistan Gurdwara's should be focussed on active Gurdwara's which can actually be used by Sindhi Sikhs and the persecuted Christians (who with some parchaar might become Sehajdhari Sikhs like the Sindhi's). The few tens of thousands of Sikhs that did not leave the Sri Nanakana Sahib area constitute a mere a 0.02% of the Pakistani population ie if you meet 10,000 Pakistani's one might just be a Sikh from near Sri Nankana Sahib. The Khalsa Panth cannot flourish or be expected to amidst such odds with Wahhabism being so popular amongst Punjabi Muslims. Bhatti's Sewa Foundation has his own name as the account holder, of course! The funds we can save by allocating the minimum of resources to empty Pakistan Gurdwara's and by avoiding pointless yathra's when we have Guru Sahib more locally accessible to us ... should be spent on assisting the downtrodden in India and other poor countries and increasing parchaar for the benefit of Sarbat dha Bhalla. £100 million can be wasted doing up some empty buildings and making some Punjabi Muslim builders rich as a reward for their ancestors ethnically cleansing our Qaum out of Pakistan ... or we can use the same amount of funds to build educational and healthcare facilities combined with Parchaar for the gareeb in primarily India and sub-saharan Africa. The differing yield of those two contrasting investments into Sikhi's future are clear cut and I believe we need to cast emotion aside and focus our (limited) resources on what really matters and what can really make a difference.

UK = I've got a couple of cars bro. One's a Bentley I got last month, the other is a Hummer I bought the other day. I hope in 300 years somebody doesn't allege that either of my cars belonged to Guru Sahib, if you get the point I'm trying to make to you. In all seriousness, I actually have an old 1300cc Japanese second-hand car (not only because I'm Punjabi and kunjoos) but because Gurmat educates us to control our natural materialistic desires as opposed to wasting excessive money on depreciating assets. By the way, as I need my car for work I wouldn't sell it to give the money raised for charity and then walk barefoot (as each of us has to determine what is the right balance for us according to Gurmat). UK = That's right Paji. No Gursikh will ever attack the Langar Seva our Gurdwaray do - after all, it's the biggest daily free food program in the World run by a faith-based organisation - but some are only saying that every extra bit we can direct towards the starving and malnourished is a step Guru Sahib would want us to take (rather than using any milk to clean marble). VJKK VJKF

UK = Lol sweetshera bro, give it a break! It's one thing for you to be the official Dera Ballan mouthpiece on this forum but another altogether for you to insult the forum Sangat's intelligence and try to make anyone seriously doubt whether Gurbachana of 1978 fame was working openly for Congress, as was the very wealthy Garib Dass of Dera Ballan. Next you'll be saying that Jatts like KPS Gill and General Brar and Ram Rahim of Sirsa have no Congress sympathies, presumably? Don't tell me, you oppose the Anandpur Sahib resolution and you think of Bhai Rajoana as a terrorist too, right?

Yeah Paji at least we Punjabi's had one Gursikh amongst the Panj Pyaaray ... can you imagine what it would have said about us Punjabi's if all of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi ... but then again I suppose the fact that 200 years ago at the start of the 19th Century a staggering 95% of Punjabi's were Muslims and Hindu's says a lot. Even as recently as1947, we were only 13% of the Punjabi population so Punjab definitely is not the future of Sikhi despite it being the historic cradle.