singh987

ISingh, Science works and you can prove it because you can DO the tests yourself, Sikhi too will work if you DO the tests!!! I wasn't trying to invoke a discussion about science and religion or imply that science can't exist with religion, on the contrary, sikhi proves many modern scientific phenomena that are just coming into light. You want to see Sikhi? I have no clue what context you want to see Sikhi working - but I recommend you watch this clip. ... Watch both parts.Forget sikhi, nothing will work for you if you don't make any effort. Let me boil it down for you in simple terms, What I'm saying is, no-one apart from yourself and the almighty akalpurakh can help you. If you for desire someone to come to your rescue, pray to the lord to send someone, else, continue to wait your entire life without making any effort... Modern day Sikhi isn't without it's demons, but that is mainly due to the diluted version of Sikhi most people follow and the Manmukh's who pose as Gurmukh's in today's society. Anyway, I think I've made my point, if you want help on specific issue's point them out and I'll try to assist where I can, but don't expect to get PHD level answers if you've not even gone though elementary education.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Veerji, Our sweet sikhi is not free of "apparent" controversies.. There's many more issues that you haven't listed... EG, Mool Mantar, Gurdgaddi (Naam Dhaari's), Dasam Granth, I could go on for a long time!... My question to you is, how many of these conspiracies will you try to satisfy before you make your mind up? It is a sad state of affairs, I agree with you that people have deviated from their actual purpose, instead we're trying to accumulate dhan (even land is a manukhi asset) in one form or another. Your spiritual journey is your own, like me, you will have up's and down's (just like everyone else) but it happens with the accordance of akaalpurakh's hukam. If you look deeper into issue's which concern you I'm certain you will find a resolve. To be frank, I've stopped caring about what anyone else is doing or thinks... Just trying to remember the almighty akaalpurakh is a big enough task... That's ALL that you need to aim towards, take one step towards akalpurakh, he takes a thousand towards you. "sabh kish ghar mehi baahar naahee | Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond. baahar ttolai so bharam bhulaahee | One who searches outside is deluded by doubt. gur parasaadhee jinee anthar paaeiaa so anthar baahar suhaelaa jeeo |1| By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1||" Stop looking to find proof of spiritual existence in other people, if you DID manage to get into a chadri kalaa gursikh's sangat, rarely will anyone reveal themselves to you. Look for proof of spirituality within your self. You openly admit your own shortcomings, yet you expect (just like everyone one else!) the lord to reveal everything to you, without having put in any effort to reap such rewards yourself. I think of it as this way, all relationships work on a give and take basis, yet when it comes to the lord, people find it acceptable to just take take take... you HAVE to give something back too! I won't ramble on... There are no problems in life other than the one's your mind and material desires try to create. One more thing, you say you doubt religion itself and not sikhi... Do you doubt science too? I guess not - but you've probably never gone out to prove any theories yourself right? It's only a matter or perspective and where you put your trust. This is why it's called "faith". Gurfateh.

Yea, it can be mind boggling to understand! What I meant was, why are people put into the cycle after creation? (it has to be under his hukam right?) so I guess I was asking, once I, the entity am created, i'm put in the cycle - without having done anything? - in accordance to his will.. he creates me, he tests me... :s lol, I guess some things can never be understood! or at least not till the right avastha is reached.

Thats a good way to look at it paaji, but, if cycle of birth and death is the effect, then what is the cause? Why am I in it!

The way I'm learning is through repetition.. I *almost* know my entire Nitnem off by heart, to get this far I've gone from reading from Gukta/Pothi Sahib, to listening to the Bani and reciting alongside.. There's no easy way to do it.. just start the process however you feel right paaji and watch the magic happen!! Gurfateh!

Anyone else have any views? I thought this was a very good question raised by the poster. It's weird that everyone makes like 20 replies to useless and pointless topics, but no-one takes part in a worthwhile discussion!!

Yes Amrit, look how much love the muslim community shows for us! I'm overwhelmed by it. /sarcasm

The original poster in my view has a valid point.. although his portrayal of the situation is somewhat exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Yes the islamification of the western world is a concern for all.. BUT... think, are the powers-that-be unware of this? - of course not! There is no way that the elite are going to welcome anyone to take control of their world... OP, Muslims AIM to spread islam and are often encouraged to have multiple marriages and many children to increase their numbers.. Use your common sense, they don't need to spread islam in an already muslim country - that's why they emigrate to the west! Islam is being pushed hard by its supporters and followers, but it is loosing it's core values in its rapid growth. Most people don't have a clue what their religion actually asks them to do!! Western societies laid the foundations of their defence long ago! They are cunning, organised and calculated. They ARE retaliating, and WILL not loose control of their countries.. Look @ the image of islam that is presented in the media... when is it ever praised!! As Sikhs, it's a concern for us either way - we're threatened from BOTH parties! Sorry OP, but I cannot see the british ever implementing sharia in the UK!

The way it has always been explained to me is, that, you are born into the this world in accordance to your past karam - and that kudrat, places you in the environment in which you are most likely to succeed, thereby giving you the shot at the true way of life.. A learned singh told me to think of it as natural selection! So - if your pot of bhagti is almost full, kudrat will only give you the necessary number swaas that you need or have earned for this human life.. if you fail in your purpose you go back into the cycle. People have bad lifestyles because of 'free will' they basically fall into the classic traps set up by maya/5 bhoots and deviate from their true purpose in life... I don't think the ethos behind the 84 joons is that your salvation is delayed. The concepts of time, space and age need to be looked at from sikhi's perspective - Think of this, your soul, if you believe is an essence of god (or light of god) then it has no age - it is as old as the lord himself and it will eventually immerse into the lord. Therefore, even the slightest moment spent 'separate' from the one alakpurakh cannot be quantified or perceived by us... Going through 84 joons in my opinion is more about kurdat exerting it's power and disappointment at us for failing the test of life.. Let's face it no man is going to be able to comprehend kudrat,karam,and maya completely! I too had similar questions - but have given up seeking answers because there is no point!!!!! Why did god create me specifically? (it was his will? why did he need to do this?) what did I do to forget god and why did he let this happen? I think you have to draw the line at some point and simply have 'faith'. It's human nature and coded into our very genes that we try and understand the workings of the world and the almighty! If I or another person satisfies your thirst for knowledge today, you will draw up new doubts/questions in your mind very soon and start pursuing them.. at least that's what happens to me, It's the way we work!! But veerji, there is no point in doing this - it's not going to achieve anything, our time is better spent in remembering the almighty!

Ah, I'm glad you said this paaji.. This is like a double edge sword for me. Do you believe that there is a 'soul' in plants? - I think they're producers, created to sustain us, ie.. it's ok to eat them/their fruit. if they too are 'soulful' creatures then, my whole argument of vegetarianism is thrown out of the window.. lol ergo causing more distress to me!

How does prophecies and Hukam of Waheguru go against each other. And bring the shabads that reject prophecies. This atheist way of thinking is clouding alot of Sikhs minds. You can have a good read of this thread right here... Everyone will draw their own conclusions, I guess I don't think prophecies sit well with the core principles of gurmat, as highlighted in discussions in the above thread. As far as Baani against prophecy is concerned, I will look. I'm certain I have heard some bachans which accommodate my thinking. But if you can reference any baani that says it's ok to predict events, or predict re-births, please do share. But the simple concept (in my eyes) of his hukam is that it is HIS HUKAM, he can change it whenever and however he wants - prophecy wouldn't accommodate a change in the fortold event because then it wouldn't come true. (I hope I have made sense) Please don't call me an atheist just because I am not as enlightened as you. I am an amrit-dhaari Guru Ka Sikh, and that's how I demand to be addressed. If I am wrong, I bow my head to my almighty creator and ask for forgiveness. Since you clearly know better than me, why don't you help me out as well? Veer ji, don't insult me when I haven't tried in any way, shape, or form to insult you. If I have unknowingly caused offence, I apologise, that was not my intention!

Glad you got my point! Dhan Waheguru! Righty, well if we focus back on topic, our initial discussion was about the 'return' of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa.. (quick summary to get back on track!) My points were: I believe Gurbaani doesn't accept/believe in prophecies - because we believe in the hukam of the almighty. Sant jee's return was fabricated to calm the sangat at the time but people stuck with it and took it to another level. Thirdly - Why would sant ji - with his level of pyaar for sikhi go gupt for sooo long!! I personally think it's disrespectful to think of such an individual in such a way. Finally - we need to re-focus and start taking action... rather than hoping that sant jee will return as predicted. You put forward the argument: Sant ji is waiting for the right time to return (therefore, saying that he WILL return) Sant Ji will return to establish Khalsa Raaj You also indicate that gurbani accepts/believes in prophecies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to know - with respect to baani from SGGS Ji, if as a sikh, I should accept/ believe in prophecies. Debate simply works by refuting what the 'other' party says with evidence to support your counter-argument. So, you can simply address my above arguments! :BL: EDIT: I just wanted to say.. here's some more food for thought. Sant jee have been 'gupt' for a long time now, he is, afterall human. Think of how thier shareer would have aged.. How long will sant jee be waiting for the right time!!!

That statement doesn't answer my query. Please don't change the focus of the thread. All I want to know: is what I believe wrong? As a fellow sikh, you should try to assist and eradicate my query! The only reason I asked for reference from SGGS ji is so that if I am indeed wrong, I can use gurubani to guide myself and other mislead souls. Sri Dasam Granth, does not have gurgaddi... and is a controversial topic for many people. What you're trying to induce is a completely different topic of discussion. Paaji, if you can't help me, don't respond. wait for someone with sufficient knowledge to come along.

My dear paaji, who can know the will of the almighty but the almighty himself?! I completely accept that he MAY CHOOSE to share his will with his gursikh. But this would be a rarity.. someone who knows the will of the almighty, then you have to think, does the almighty also wish for what he has revealed to be shared with the rest of the world? - Sounds familiar to me, infact this reminds me of our guru sahibaans! Please back up your claim with references from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.

Yes, I've had these thought also, then I think... why are all these beings coming into the human form at such a rate? Does this mean that animals can do bhagti, therefore speeding up their time in the cycle? - but then I think that surely, you cannot shorten the cycle.. bah!!!! =) Some pangtiyan from baani would really help. I know our minds are not meant to understand everything.

I may be wrong paaji, can you please show me where in baani guru sahib accepts prophecies? Seriously, I have always been told that the prophecy is against gurmat, because we believe in hukam!!! and that his(akalpurakh's) will is not bound by anyone/anything! I would really like to know if i'm wrong.. Secondly, Our Guru Sahib's are always with us, Getting their darshan or darshan of shaheed singh's isn't impossible for someone who is in chardi kala and blessed with naam daan. This however it is a completely different thing to assume that those singh's or guru sahib's come back into their human form!!

I'm sorry.. This is just more fabricated rubbish with absolutely no backbone at all. I heard Guru Nanak Dev Ji's face could be seen on the surface of the moon.... oh wait, lol. I wonder what kind of people start these stories!! Makes me laugh.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh! Guys, I have a question... Please answer if you can.. How can the population increase (rapid increase at that) be explained in respect to reincarnation and gurbani? Is akalpurakh creating and putting 'new' souls into the life/death cycle as old souls attain salvation? Do we have any sort of gurbani references for any of these questions or is this something we should just 'accept'. Gurfateh.

lets give this a shot.. There is a thought among some people that you somehow 'break' your amrit when you enter grist and get married (Basically they refer to you having sex, I think). Therefore you will find people will encourage you to either take amrit as a couple once you are married or go 'pesh'/take a 'choola' again. This MAY be what your parents might be worried about, they are amrit-dhaari themselves and they understand the complexities of grist jeevan as amrit-dhaari people.. this is probably their weird way of explaining themselves to you! This also explains why they have concerns about you marrying, again, some people think that if you take amrit you may be deterred from gristi jeevan - because of your commitments to not indulge in kaam - one of your 5 bhoots. The topic of sex, in my opinion, is dangerously oppressed by most people in our community - we do not have the capacity to discuss this topic confidently. My personal view is as follows: Amrit is not just the 'drinkable' thing.. it cannot be broken, amrit is within you, if you wish to pledge yourself to your guru, go for it! Just make sure you understand the scale of the commitment you are making, and ensure that your parents know this too! all will be well paaji..

@ akalpurakhdifauj Paaji, as far as I know, none of our guru sahibaan's ever wished to be worshipped or regarded as akalpurakh. Although we are the same essence as akalpurakh, (which is what the pangti in SGGS ji Maharaaj means) the one true parmeshar does not take birth!! This is made very clear in gurbani, in many many places --> think of mool mantar! kaal == death, he is akaal - above death! Bhul Chuk Khima Karni!!

Paaji, despite what anyone says, Sant jee is not coming back.. Everyone needs to use common sense, someone who has that level of pyaar for sikhi, doesn't go 'gupt' whilst his beloved sikhi's faces trials, tribulations and attacks from all sides. Sant jee was a true singh, not some giddar, who would hide through the tough times. stop insulting him and stop insulting his ideology people, you can wait for sant jee to return all your lives, or you can wake up and try and do something for your religion yourself. I also believe that prophecies are NOT acceptable nor adhere to Gurmat. The reason why this 'idea' was spread was to ensure that people do not panic, it was a strategy to keep people calm... On one hand you call someone a great warrior, a true sikh and one the other hand you insult that great soul by indicating he is 'hiding' or playing some big 'chall'! Make your mind up!!!

My opinion is... lets say if one of your body parts caught some disease, you'd try to save it as much as possible before severing it. Similarly - if you wish to keep a bond with your brother and actually help him, then you shouldn't give up on him so easily. It will hurt when someone betrays you, especially being so close to you - but in my opinion these are the trials for gursikhs to face and conquer! Point is, He did what he thought was best - you can't hold it against him forever for making a mistake, surely that will not help him at all... In this day and age people can't get along because of their oversized ego's - try your best to help him and if he still doesn't fix himself then.. pray for him. I'm amrit-dhaari but think of this for a second.. if you believe god exists - then surely he is above any and all organised religion(s) on this earth.. Religions will come and go but the almighty will always be there - just because your brother hasn't taken the spiritual path which you perceive to be correct doesn't mean he will never attain the essence of the almighty. You can fill in the blanks yourself - put simply, help him realise his mistake and he will rectify his way himself! Hope that helps!

My 2 cents: There's much knowledge in the world to gather and study... however none of it will do you any good! You have to understand, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the complete guru. Every topic of life, whether it is kaam, veerta (bir ras) or spirituality, is discussed and enlightened within Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If we needed 3 Granths to complete our life journey - then Dasam Pita would have made it so! Can I also ask - If we're holding Sarbloh Granth is such secrecy, high esteem and saying "only a select few are worthy to know it" are we impacting the guru ship of the true guru? Don't get me wrong sangat ji, all I'm saying is we should watch the way we word our responses.. (incl me!) reading some replies, I got the impression some people were trying to say - that the true guru is easily accessible to everyone but - you have to be special to have access to Sarbloh Granth - I'm not sure if this is what was meant by their posts. AFAIK, equality is one of the core concepts of sikhi!! It is said - the 10th master frowned upon those that tried to worship him or call him god - so much so that he said "those who worship me or call me god shall suffer at the hands of the jamdoot".... He ordered his sikhs to serve their shabad guru when he passed on the gurgaddi. Don't get me wrong - one should bestow utmost respect to any/all bani.. but imo you have to draw the line and NOT address other granths/compilations with the guruship title, if the 10th living master - didn't see fit to - I don't see how others feel it right to correct the 10th master. This IS a matter or respect - but respect for the 10th master's hukam and our living guru sahib!!! Some of the singh's/kaur's also need to calm down and not try to bite other people's head off for asking questions... If you really think, threatening someone with "chopping their head off" is going to change people's opinion - you are sadly mistaken and I'd really like to see you try!

OMG!! I MISSED OUT!! AND AGAIN PLEASE! Ik O-Ankaar, Sat Naam, Karta Purakh, Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akaal Moorat, Ajooni Sehbhung Gurprasaad. Jap. Aaad Sach, Jugaad Sach, Hai Bhi Sach. Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach!