Balkaar

I thought you were here to mend the divisions within the Panth? So far, all I've seen you do is hop from thread to thread making suspicious accusations and stirring up conflict.

Mod Kira and his taskmaster MisterrSingh? I like that idea.

"You're a liar Balkaar! Quit misleading the Sangat!" This is the second thread where you are making completely baseless accusations against me. I didn't say there were the only ones who have preserved Gurmat Sangeet. I said "almost singlehandedly". Almost is key. Do you know what almost means? And how exactly don't they get along with others involved in Gurmat Sangeet? The Raj Academy hires Naamdharis as teachers for God's sake. Some of the most famous names in Gurmat Sangeet were trained by Namdharis. I very much doubt either of those things would be happening if we weren't on relatively good terms. My dilruba ustaad is a namdhari. I've met members of his sect. We get along just fine.

Whatever the case, I've actually found the anarchy of the past couple of days quite amusing. The mods should relieve themselves of their duties here more often.

Chatanga Ji, You said that he had confirmed to you that he was DTF. What you've provided above is not a confirmation of this by any means. It's just an outburst. I think you may have been wrong about this.

Dailysikhupdates claims that the majority of the Namdharis follow Thakur Dalip Singh (the figure is given as 80%). I don't know if this has been verified, but I suspect not. Uday Singh however is the official Guru of the Namdharis and he is in possession of the lands at Bhaini Sahib.

But what about DTF's supposed admission that he and Sheikh were one and the same veerji? That was the thing the brother requested you to verify

I don't think this is their full-time job. When the rest of life/work gets too busy for them, their need to moderate this forum is gonna diminish.

Definitely because of the internet, and the ability to speak the English language. Shouldn't let those Bazurgs off the hook too quickly though. The Gurdware have been selling books in Gurmukhi for years. So has the Sikh Missionary Society in Old Southall. I've tried to shake my grandparents out of their depressing tedium by convincing them to go and get some books. I've never succeeded.

Yeah, that's the business in a nutshell. It's Dalip Singh's faction that wishes to return to the fold.

Integral perhaps wasn't the best choice of words. 'Beneficial' would have been better. One cay say what they will of the Namdharis, but as you've mentioned, they have almost singlehandedly managed to preserve the integrity of the puraatan tradition of Gurmat Sangeet. These ustaads of tanti saaz in the mainstream Sikh world - almost every single one of them was taught by a Namdhari. Two of the most prominent here in the UK, Bhai Harjinder Singh Lallie and Professor Surinder Singh (Raj Academy) were both students of Ustaad Surjeet Singh Namdhari. I think they are due a lot of respect.

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Do you suspect that they may have an ulterior motive for joining?

The process of assimilation into the Khalsa Panth is going to be slow for them Bhenji. It isn't easy to just stop believing in everything which was once the bedrock of your existence. Give them time to adjust. We should rejoice at the return of wayward sons and daughters.

Lol, it appears to have escaped you that in spite of all your talk of us causing divisions, there wasn't even an argument on this thread until YOU piped in!

Better brainwashed than braindead like you. I'm done here.

Another one, for God's sake. What you've just quoted me as saying is not at odds with what I wrote earlier. You believe Banda Singh Bahadur is one of the great heroes of Sikh history. That is what I set about disproving when I gave you the evidence of his treachery. Not his martial prowess. Not his former loyalty to the Khalsa. Not his participation in the Battle of Sirhind. His legacy. He was loyal - and then he wasn't. And that is why I called him a traitor.

I also wonder whether JSinghNz is a charmed favorite of the moderators. All the other nasties on this forum have been banned or placed on watch, and yet HE somehow persists, totally free to give voice to his vitriolic poison.

What a silly feat of mental gymnastics. Where did I even suggest that I believe the battle of Sirhind never occurred? Banda Singh Bahadur became a traitor gradually. The battle of Sirhind happened when he was still loyal to the cause.

Read Mahan Kosh by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Tvarikh Guru Khalsa by Giani Gian Singh and Panth Prakash by Rattan Singh Bhangu. These are some of the ONLY historical accounts of the life of Banda Singh Bahadur. He established himself as a dehdari Guru and instructed his followers to abandon the Khalsa's revered neel bastar in favour of the ochre robes of the Bairagi faith to which he had reverted, to stop eating onions and garlic, and to discard the Khalsa's greeting "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh" and replace it with "Fateh Darshan Ki". His Bandai Khalsa actually fought against the Tat Khalsa, loyal to the one true Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib. You are the one who has imbibed a fairy tale, given life at around the end of the 19th century. I don't know why I bothered responding to you, you're just going to dismiss everything I've said out of hand anyway because you have ZERO respect for Sikh history and refuse to accept anything which doesn't conform to your narrow-mindedness. If I am wrong about Banda Singh Bahadur, God will punish me for the things I have said. But I am going by what little evidence there is, that seems to me to be the only reasonable approach.

Veerji, Banda Singh Bahadur was a traitor to the Panth who went on to try and establish himself as a dehdari Guru. His hubris led to a shattering schism in the ranks of the Khalsa. I wouldn't use him as a reference point for how Sikhs ought to behave. I'm also unsure about these forced conversions. Nothing of the kind is mentioned in the puraatan accounts. True, there are some instances of Sikhs taking revenge against Muslims after establishing the confederacy of Misls, some quite horrific ( one such remebrance relates how the Sikhs demolished some mosques and forced Afghan prisoners to wash the foundations with pig's blood), but not forced conversion en masse. You yourself have supplied the demographics of the Sikh Empire - 70% of its inhabitants were Muslim. Either such a thing never happened, or the Sikhs were extremely incompetent at forcing people to convert in a way unequaled throughout human history.

Brother, I'm sorry but you are hardly the best person to attempt mediation between the pro-Raagmala lot and the anti Raagmala lot - your sympathies seem skewed towards the latter. Moreover you don't seem willing to understand that for those of us who have complete faith in Raagmala, the demand that we ignore peoples' attempts to rubbish something which we consider to be authentic Gurbani is unthinkable. We won't ostracize other Sikhs for their differences in the moments when the whole Panth is under siege, but I think we're entitled to speak our minds on internet forums.

I don't hate the AKJ. Nothing I have said here even suggests that. I've never criticized their Jatha anywhere - there is just a great disparity between our opinions on the issue of Raagmala.

Lol, and what have you written about me in your little black notebook? Would it be rude of me to ask if you could share some of your secret intel?

Lol, yep, it's always a party here