dallysingh101

Mate, I've seen enough from apnay with my own eyes to know what is reality and what is bull. And I tell you what, the first thing closet jaat paat knobs try and do is play it all down. Just because people might be let in and out of Gurdwaras, it doesn't mean rampant snide, haughty, obnoxious, exclusionary treatment doesn't take place on a continual basis (that people don't like to face up to, in the same way people ignored the grooming issue for decades). Jeez dude, are you really that naive?

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/sep/17/asian-child-sex-victims-suffer-more-than-white-children-court-rules

I thought the above was the desi way of saying Canada first....then it dawned on me it was language... hee hee Where is it spoken?

No it won't. It's been tried already. The new maryada will just become another one amongst many.

Are you serious? You don't have any idea about how so-called 'low-caste' Sikh are generally treated by the high and mighty???

Yeah that momma's boy thing is just too much. Not a good look.

Like we don't a have major problems with this.... Keep deluding yourself.

A lot of 'Sikh farmers' have a very negative attitude towards such people deeming them as lesser beings. I doubt they'll be too fussed about helping them. Hell, they are probably the people who rejected them in the first place.

I tell you, the hypocrisy of some so-called 'high caste' Panjabi pendu 'Sikhs' is revolting.....

Seriously, read Bhangu's work; dasmesh pita onwards: Vol 1: https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh Vol 2: https://www.scribd.com/doc/149671030/SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangu-VOLUME-2-English-trans-by-Kulwant-Singh

So I guess you people think Rattan Singh Bhangu made all that stuff up about the Khalsa eating meat then (let alone taking bhang)?

hee hee hee!

I still don't get why so many people get their knickers in a twist when they read things in puratan granths that aren't common today?? The mind boggles. Plus people seem absurdly oblivious to the possibility that being colonised by foreigners for a full century, (who had a TOTALLY different world view to the original Khalsa), might have had some (major or minor) influence on us. Or even just the natural passage of time. No society has ever remained constant and the more contact societies have with radically different cultures (let alone being ruled by them for 100 years...), the more likely that some cross contamination will take place. It's just straight weird that all discussions about certain practices of purataan Singhs gets reduced to ridiculous name calling and accusations of trying to condone drug taking, alcohol drinking blah blah blah. Sure, some people do this, but not everyone trying to understand the true nature of puratan Sikh society in a non-judgmental way is trying to excuse away or justify modern practices. Some of us just want to know our history - warts and all. It's an amusing thought: Would certain people be disgusted with their own ancestors because they don't meet up to their standards today? What annoys me is the way this mentality regularly causes a shut down of interesting debate regarding past Singhs - because historical sources don't parrot what they themselves believe. At this rate we might as well burn all our older literature and pretend it never existed. lol We are LUCKY to have all the literature we do given the determined way people tried to rub us off the face of the earth.

When you seriously start studying history you discover all manner of hidden things. The point you made (highlighted above) isn't true according to Bhangu's Panth Prakash. He explicitly mentions how the Khalsa tolerated the smoking of someone who was part of the Moghul government but an undercover sehaj-dhari Sikh. His name was Kaura Mal. This guy would forewarn the Khalsa of impending Moghul attacks and send supplies when they were surrounded. Apparently they made him pay fines for his smoking huqqa but he was well loved. This IS NOT (!!!) any attempt on my part to justify, encourage, excuse smoking before anyone jumps on that wagon! I'm just exploring what I've discovered whilst exploring my own literary heritage! I think what has happened today is that the Sikh masses have been so conditioned by a particular, white washed account of their history that many have sadly become incapable of exploring their own beautiful and rich literary heritage because they experience hardcore dissonance with what they sometimes encounter because it is so different from their preconceptions of the past. It's sad really but very common.

Is that your description of Rattan Singh Bhangu and his family, or are you talking about posters?

Well, I'd disagree because I think soldiers taking afeem or bhang was common back then. We've even got a sakhi where the emperor Babur himself offers Baba Nanak bhang. It's still done now in places like Afghanistan for example. Also, many Sikh sources themselves record the taking of bhang like it is no big thing. Read Rattan Singh Bhangu's Path Prakash for example. Remember Bhangu was the grandson of Mehtab Singh who slew Mass Runghur at Amritsar, so he wasn't any marginal figure in Sikh history. Well actually, Panth Prakash is REALLY interesting in this respect because it claims the opposite; that Banda Singh didn't eat meat and this was one of the things that upset the mainstream Khalsa. Other things that were supposed to have gone against Khalsa norms included wearing red instead of blue and changing the jaikara to 'Fateh Darshan'.) You can read Panth Prakash in English and check for yourself: Here's volume 1, which covers the Banda Singh period: https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh A lot of puratan rehats are available. A scholar called Piara SIngh Padam collected a good few in a book. Its a mixed picture, some rehats are okay with meat (as long as it is not halal), some not. Given all the evidence I've seen it looks like some people have always eaten meat and some have always been vegetarian.

No misunderstanding, no need to apologise. lol It's just really easy (and common from my experience) for people to start pointing fingers when we discuss this topic and claim people are trying to justify x and y practice today. Some of us are genuinely interested in history and for me personally, given the violence Sikhs experienced in 1700s, I don't think any less of any of them doing all these things that people have issues with today. That's just a personal view - everyone is free to disagree.

No one in their right mind will deny that Sikhs face serious challenges in the 21st century. That all being said we have to remain chardhi kala and slowly and steadily improve our own communities game in terms of retaining people born in the faith and bringing people in. I know it is becoming cliched a bit but we still have to remember that we've recovered from mass genocide on more than one occasion. With Guru's kripa we'll survive modern challenges too. But what we can't keep doing are things that are detrimental to our communities growth and cohesion, even out of ignorance.

Yeah but there is separate issue about so many references to meat eating, bhang consumption etc. in a lot of old Sikh manuscripts. That's not me trying to justify it, but pretending these things don't exist is like burying ones head in the sand. I don't think Sikh history is as clean cut as some people like to make out today. Suffice to say that it appears as if certain behaviours and thinking of SOME Singhs in the past was different to today, for whatever reason. But yes, it's sad that people try and use this today to justify recreational intoxication.

I think some compromises might have been made on the ground during warfare. That isn't to say that talking bhang etc. was something all or most Sikhs did. Or even that Gurmat condones it. Also, on another thread on Nihang rehat I made a point that some use of substances may have been self medication i.e. opium is an analgesic and certain non-intoxicating compounds in marijuana have uses beyond getting high (i.e. cancer, MS, some psychological conditions amongst others). Plus remember, a lot of these writers wrote a fair few decades (if not centuries) after the events. For example Gyani Gyan Singh published the above in 1880, a good 170 odd years after dasmesh pita's earthly passing.

OP, when you post this stuff can you make sure we have the original Gurmukhi text too? That way people can assess the translations.

Okay, but we've got to deal with the reality of many apneean falling for it. Unless you want top wash your hands off it and make the situation even worse (if that is possible). Streetsmarts is good way of explaining it. So many girls who are academically excellent fall for it, so it obviously isn't THAT type of 'intelligence'. Panjabis used to talk about people being 'lulloos', which I basically translate as simple minded. Not being aware of threats in the environment. You can get top grades in your GCSE and degree and still be like this.

Maybe social intelligence plays a part too?

I'd put it down to human nature myself.

I disagree. I think a lot of important goray (in the police, media, social services etc.) have known what has been going on from day one. They've just decided to cover it up. They still do. Also, remember it looks like we've had a paedophile group operating from amongst the highest levels of government (no less!) here in the UK, that has been pretty much an open secret here. Goray in government and media have purposefully played Sikh girls being groomed down in my opinion (same with working class white girls) and purposefully vilified Sikhs who've stood up to it like SP. I think they knew what was going on but obfuscated the issue by making out it was jealous Sikh men versus successful sullay lovers rather than deal with it.