taran0

Well done GPS paji i have been watching the videos from the seminar and it was great to see such an uprala ignorance is the disease and unfortunately many innocent young people have been misinformed about dasam granth and as you know DOUBT is kalyugs biggest weapon But instead of having the desired effect actually the "nindak movement" has had the opposite effect more and more Sikhs are trying to read and understand Dasam Granth Sahbi Ji if you want to KNOW what Guru Gobind Singh jis own views were then read Dasam Granth just one section of Teti Swaiye smashes the whole brahmanvaad accusation ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque; ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥ Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12. ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take birth from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL? ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥ If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13. ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥ Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shoot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan; ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥ He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14. ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥ Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you; ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥ Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15. ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥ Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed; ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥ O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16. (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Teti Swaiye - Dasam Granth)

First thing the title is wrong - ram chander isnt a Hindu God - he was a historic Holy king during the treta yug(second age after Satyug) he is worshipped by Hindus in the modern age ----------------- Guru Gobind Singh ji briefly touches on the history of these dynasties and Panjab in Bachittar Natak There have been many dynasties, clans and lineages but at the end of this section describing ancestry, Guru Gobind Singh ji clarifies that they were all influenced by and a slave to maya and caused wars and strife due to their greed and lust.

at the end of the day we descended from the ancient punjabis , whether it was ram chander or krishan makes no difference, there's a lot of punjabis with greek blood also from the settlers of Alexander the great a simple analogy.... my dad was an alcoholic - doesn't make me one - i still descended from him he did some good stuff and some bad stuff, ....but I learnt from his mistakes and can tell people his story ....

At the end of the day money are future singhs! and the kuom is in need of sevadars if we start segregating and splitting people then we just end up cutting off our arm and foot - and we need all the help we can get ! just look at rajoana Tv guy - smashed it with his youtube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/RajoanaTV even the indian newspapers were blown away NATION IN A STATE: PUNJAB Looking back in anger http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/looking-back-in-anger/article4188787.ece Efforts by sections of the Sikh community, especially in the diaspora, to revive interest in what they describe as unsettled injustices of the 1980s — but what the police say is a renewed campaign for Khalistan — are fast drawing in the youth Harwinder Singh Mander is a bright eyed youth in his twenties, born and raised in England to Sikh parents. He studied law and runs Naujawani.com, a popular internet radio station and internet TV that broadcasts content for a global Sikh audience. He is a blogger too — on the topic of what he calls injustices against the Sikh community in India. His latest post asks Sikhs to sign an online petition to free Kulbir Singh Barapind and Daljit Singh Bittu, arrested by the Punjab police in September for allegedly reviving the outlawed Khalistan Zindabad Force. He and his friends also support “IPledgeOrange” or “Kesri Lehar” (Orange, the colour of sacrifice, is also that of Sikhism’s pennant), another online campaign launched by the United States-based Sikhs for Justice that petitioned the British Parliament on Monday for a debate on the “atrocities on minorities in India.” The campaign seeks to free Balwant Singh Rajoana, on death row for engineering the bomb blast that killed the Punjab Chief Minister, Beant Singh, and 17 others in 1995. “IPledgeOrange” also runs Rajoana TV, which features half-hour episodes in English focusing on events connected with the March turmoil in Punjab, when Rajoana’s scheduled execution was stalled following a Statewide protest. A young shorn Sikh boy with a British accent eulogises Rajoana and Jagtar Singh Hawara (also convicted for the same offence) and plays on notions of injustice, and denial of equality and freedom to the Sikhs. Forget the images of saffron robed jathedars wearing long beards and kirpans uttering full throated cries of “Jo Bole So Nihal” that characterised the Khalistan campaign of the 1980s. These are educated, suave youngsters, most likely to be born and raised in the West. They talk of love, peace and humanity in the same breath that they talk of atrocities against Sikhs. Their heros are icons of the Khalistan movement such as Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Rajoana or Hawara. Since February this year, when Sikhs across the world rose against the impending hanging of Rajoana, young Sikhs in the diaspora in particular have started what the police call a cyber war for Khalistan. The propaganda overdrive, through scores of web sites and social media platforms, is aimed at the young and impressionable, feeding them a diet of one-sided stories on the theme of injustice and the government’s failure to protect Sikh rights and interests. New DGP The appointment of Sumedh Singh Saini, a much feared police officer for his role in eliminating terrorism in Punjab, as the State director general of police in February coincided with the February stir against Rajoana, and provided much grist to the mill. Sample this excerpt from a video devoted exclusively to Saini, on Rajoana TV. “Mr. Saini was drafted at that time for a reason; because he is a trained killer, with the blood of thousands of Sikhs on his hands.” Graphic pictures of a Sikh family allegedly slaughtered by Saini, appear in the video. The soft voice on the audio, intones: “This man is in charge of policing my State and my people. Can we expect any justice?” Police officers admit that law enforcing agencies have so far been unequal in this unfolding arena. “It is vigorous and potent,” says a police officer. But those behind the cyber propaganda are at pains to stress they are not extremists. “We do not want fighting or bloodshed. Khalistan means different things to different people,” Mr. Mandher told The Hindu in an emailed response, “whether they are in the West or in Punjab.” Canadian PM’s statement The Sikh diaspora’s efforts to fuel revival of interest in Sikh issues abroad paid off when Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said during a visit to India last month that advocating for Khalistan by the Sikh community is not a crime. Harper’s statement is plastered on most websites devoted to Sikh issues. In March, when Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal visited the U.S. to attend a wedding, Sikhs For Justice (SFJ) ambushed him with a federal civil lawsuit alleging that he oversaw the torture of Sikhs in India. A court in Wisconsin issued summons against Badal on the SFJ’s complaint. Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, who heads SFJ, is seeking to internationalise India’s failure to punish the perpetrators of the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, while handing out death sentences to the Sikhs who reacted in anger at those incidents. Said Pannun, “This suit will send a strong message to political leaders that they are answerable to the international laws and the courts for their role in gross human rights violations.” The Punjab government dismissed the radical’s move as a “cheap and desperate publicity stunt” by “marginalised elements” who had a violent communal agenda. ‘Unsettled resentment’ But voices within the Sikh community warn against dismissing the welling anger as the fulminations of a fringe group. “This unsettled resentment [over the 1984 riots] is manifesting itself in demands like opposition to the hanging of former terrorists or to have a memorial for Operation Bluestar. It reinforces the sentiment that laws are only meant to be used against the Sikhs and not for their benefit,” said H.S. Phoolka, a Supreme Court advocate who has been fighting for justice to the 1984 victims. Young Sikhs are increasingly drawing comparisons between the treatment meted out to them and the Shiv Sena. “There have been at least three recorded shootings by the police of unarmed Sikh teenagers who have been peacefully protesting against the government. While in contrast, the “Shiv Sena Group,” which is an anti-minority, fascist, pro Hindu group, has been allowed, and in many situations, provided security protection by the paramilitary and police forces, while making anti-minority speeches and threats against the minority community,” says the Kesri Lehar petition. All this is not to suggest that an uprising is even remotely on the cards. It is widely acknowledged that the people’s rejection of terrorism was the main reason that Punjab returned from the brink. The new calls to resolve Sikh issues use only democratic methods. Young educated Sikhs living abroad, are beginning to question, in democratic ways, if what happened in Punjab in the 1980s was justified after all. Their questions now are not so much about the old territorial or river waters issues but whether Sikhs have been discriminated against by India’s politico-legal system in the last two decades. What is worrying is that the voices are becoming insistent and even moderate Sikhs find it hard to fault their logic. Keywords: Nation in a State, Punjab, Sikh, Khalistan Zindabad Force, Balwant Singh Rajoana

good point .....

Coach trip to Ypres in Belgium and Neuve Chapel in France £90 - inc hotel travel lunch Saturday 12th to Sunday 13th October 2013 From Gurdwara Singh Sabha, Summerset Road, Handsworth Wood Sikh Community and Youth Service UK in association with Gurdwara Singh Sabha, Somerset Road, Handsworth Wood have arranged a remembrance coach trip to Ypres in Belgium and Neuve Chaple in France to pay respects to the Sikh War Veterans of World War 1 and 2. This trip is supported by Birmingham and Sandwell Gurdwaras. contact : Sundeep Singh at the Sikh Community & Youth Service UK, 348 Soho Road, Handsworth, Birmingham, B21 9QL (Monday – Friday 11am – 5.00pm) as soon as possible with all details completed. Please make sure this is returned before 1st September 2013 at the very latest. Payment must be received before we can issue the tickets. Please book early to avoid disappointment. Sundeep Singh - 0121 523 0147 - 11am-5pm mon to fri Mr Dhesy - 07507 113113 Ranvir Singh Virdi - 07748 323560 --------------------------------------------------------------- ITINERARY Belgium and France Visit from 12th October to 13th October 2013 Lunch from Gurdwara will be provided on the ferry during travel to Calais on Saturday. Refreshments will be provided at Neuve Chapelle on Sunday (Courtesy of Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Paris). You will be responsible for purchasing your own food and drink at all other times. Saturday 12th October 2013 7:00 Pick up from Gurdwara Singh Sabha, Somerset Road, Handsworth Wood (Distance to Dover 205 miles, approx. time of journey 3.5 hours) 11:30 Arrive in Dover 13:00 Ferry sails to Calais (France), Lunch on ferry. Approx 1.5 hours on ferry. 15:30 Arrive in Calais depart for P & J Giftstore Calais, Rue Marcel Dassault, 62100 (Distance 3 miles, approx. 10 minutes) 16:00 Depart for Ypres (Distance 56 miles, 1 hour 10mins) 17:15 Arrive in Ypres. Check in hotel. Rest of the evening at leisure 20:00 Visit the Menin Gate for the Last Post Ceremony (within walking distance of hotel) Sunday 13th October 2013 8:00 Breakfast in hotel 9:00 Visit Hollebeke village and see the Sikh’s first Military Memorial in Europe. This place marks the position where the Sikhs first fought against the Germans in 1914 in Belgium on the Western front. 10:30 Head to Neuve Chapelle in France (Distance 22 miles, 45 minutes) 11:15 Arrive at Neuve Chapelle Memorial. The Indian memorial at Neuve Chapelle commemorates over 4,700 Indian soldiers and labourers who lost their lives on the Western Front during World War 1 and have no known graves. This will be the meeting place with Sikhs from France, Belgium, Holland etc and other important invited guests. A remembrance ceremony will take place and you will have the chance to learn more about this place. 14:00 Leave Neuve Chapelle memorial and depart for P & J Giftstore Calais, Rue Marcel Dassault, 62100, (57miles, 1.5 hours) 15.50 Leave P & J Giftstore for Calais ferry port (Distance 3 miles, approx. 10 minutes) 16:00 Arrive at Calais and catch ferry to Dover 17:00 Arrive at Dover and depart for Birmingham 21:30 Arrival in Birmingham NB : The above are approximate times and maybe subject to change, visit to P&J Gift store will take place if there are no delays Belgium & France Trip Booking Form.pdf Belgium & France Trip Itinerary (2).pdf

IN Guru Gobind Singh jis time there were many sehajdhari sikhs or non amaritaree sikhs who helped the panth in their time of need who knows how much of a sikh anyone is, and who is to judge? Sikhi is a path and some adopt different lessons at different times in their life - what we need is ekta not more divisions... When the Khalsa had to live in jungles during mid 1700s , it was the sehajdharis who used to care for the Singhs and feed them , as they could move around undetected. and without support from the general populous in Punjab the Sikhs would never have risen to the Sikh Raj under Maharajah Runjeet Singh. IN our kids camps we encourage the sehajdhari sikhs to do seva and take part in doing parchaar - we tell them Sikhi belongs to them and they have to look after it many Sikhs you see today were once Sehajdhari - give people time and space to grow

The nihangs dont mind the namdharis and i have been to a few nihang weddings where namdharis will do kirtan, but never will the Nihangs bow or call the namdhari leader SATGURU - that would be a besti of your own Guru as one cannot have two fathers - they do like the way they do lots of simran and read a lot of dasam bani and do raag kirtan the Nihangs pretty much have a habit of not recognising any authority other then their own, the Khalsa to them is sovereign above all - The Nihangs see the Namdharis as deluded and heavily take the mick out of them for not accepting guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Guru. Ajit "phoola" the corrupt so called "nihang" - was the only one who visited bhaini and kept close congressi ties with the namdharis - but even he would call their Guru - baba or jagta Ask any Nihang Singh and they would never refer to jagjit namdhari as Satguru - well no Singh in their rightful mind would accept someone who contests the authority of their own Guru Nidars words don't surprise me, because Nidar IS NOT A NIHANG.

they have been having a lot of internal dispute especially since their previous fake guru passed away, and there was a conflict of succession between his two nephews udhey and dalip and his grandson Jai Singh there have already been clashes in India so it maybe that they have hired an outsider to do the attack, in the UK, the guy has been arrested so it will be interestign to see what info they come out with. It seems weird that Namdharis should be attacked now as jagjit the previous Guru came to the Uk many times and there was no attacks as far as i can remember, this most definitely has to be related to the internal conflict within namdharis. Succession row in Namdhari sect turns violent, clash in Amritsar http://www.indianexpress.com/news/succession-row-in-namdhari-sect-turns-violent-clash-in-amritsar/1079811/THE succession row in the Namdhari sect turned violent on Monday after two groups — one owing allegiance to sect chief Satguru Uday Singh and the other to Thakur Dalip Singh, who has been staking claim as the successor — clashed in Amritsar during a congregation in the memory of late Satguru Jagjit Singh. The police have booked four people — Sukhdev Singh, Shinda Singh, Harpal Singh and Sukhwant Singh — along with a number of unidentified others on charges of attempt to murder. The case was registered following a complaint by Ranjit Singh, a Uday Singh supporter and Amritsar head of the Namdhari sect. Police said Ranjit Singh sustained an injury on his forehead, near his left eye, during the clash. He was later hospitalised. A couple of more people also sustained injuries in the clash, sources said. According to sources, the clash started after supporters of Thakur Dalip Singh allegedly entered the congregation forcibly around 2.15 pm holding placards stating "Panth Ekta Zindabad". As they were stopped from marching towards the stage, where Uday Singh and late Satguru Jagjit Singh's widow Chand Kaur were sitting, one of them allegedly hurled a stone towards Uday Singh's vehicle. The two groups then clashed by hurling stones and using sticks. "Supporters of Thakur Dalip Singh forcibly entered the venue and started hurling stones. Children and women were present at the gathering. My father was injured after a stone hit him," said Ranjit Singh's son Harmeet Singh. According to eyewitnesses, gunshots were also fired in the air after a ruckus ensued even as Uday Singh and Chand Kaur were sitting on the stage while kirtan was on. "We are verifying whether any shots were fired. Two DSPs and police personnel had been deployed at the venue of congregation near Company Bagh as a pre-emptive measure to avoid any untoward incident. We are not sure what caused the clash. Investigations are on in the case," Amritsar Commissioner of Police Ram Singh said. ---------------------------------------------- Namdhari cult splits in two: War of Succession Begins after demise of their leaderhttp://sikhsangat.org/2012/namdhari-cult-splits-in-two-war-of-succession-begins-after-demise-of-their-leader/ Ludhiana, Punjab: The tug-of-war over appointing the successor to Jagjit Singh took an ugly turn when members of the International Namdhari Sangat took to the streets here. Namdhari sect head Jagjit Singh had died on December 13 and his nephew Thakur Uday Singh was appointed the successor on December 16. The International Namdhari Sangat, however, wanted Uday Singh’s brother Thakur Dalip Singh appointed as the new Satguru. The Sangat had even appealed to Jagjit Singh’s widow Chand Kaur to reconsider the decision to appoint Uday Singh as the new head. The International Sangat members today burnt an effigy of Namdhari Darbar (Bhaini Sahib) president HS Hanspal and vice-president Surinder Lyal in Ludhiana. The activists alleged that Hanspal and Lyal were trying to create factionalism among the Namdhari sect over succession. International Namdhari Sangat president Navtej Singh said Hanspal and Lyal allegedly had vested interests in appointing Uday Singh as the new head. “Hanspal and Lyal want to become politically important and, therefore, have appointed Uday Singh as the sect head. Both are indirectly trying to divide the Namdharis,” he said. Navtej alleged that both these leaders had committed a sin by ignoring Jagjit Singh’s desire and announcing Uday Singh as the head instead of Dalip Singh. He claimed that a majority of the Namdhari Sangat was in Dalip Singh’s favour and that Hanspal and Lyal had allegedly ignored the mass feeling. When questioned on the issue, Lyal said the International Namdhari Sangat was a “fake organisation”. “There is no confusion over succession as Chand Kaur herself had announced Uday Singh as the new head. A section of the Sangat is trying to defame the Namdhari sect,” he added. Hanspal, however, refused to comment on the issue. ------------------------------------ Succession war in cash-rich Namdhari sect http://www.indianexpress.com/news/succession-war-in-cashrich-namdhari-sect/1045588/ The headquarters of the Namdhari sect near here crawled with police on Friday as its head, 92-year-old Satguru Jagjit Singh, was cremated. Amid the grief brews a succession war, at the heart of which lie assets worth crores of rupees and donations that flow in from devotees in India and abroad. Even as the funeral was held, reports came of armed men preparing for a clash. Announcement of a successor has been deferred for now. The Satguru's younger nephew, Thakur Uday Singh, has been appointed "officiating head". Originating from an 1872 movement for social reforms within Sikhism, the Namdhari sect preaches vegetarianism, simple weddings, white clothes, and a living guru. However, over the past three years, as the health of Jagjit Singh, who took over more than 50 years ago, worsened, the fight for the guru gaddi become an open secret. The Satguru leaves behind a headquarters, Bhaini Sahib, that has astro turf for hockey, sprawling bungalows and luxury cars, including a Maybach gifted by an NRI. His nephew, Thakur Dalip Singh, seen by many as the rightful successor given his hundreds of followers, had been "boycotted" recently along with his mother. Dalip's younger brother Uday grew closer to the Satguru in his absence. Uday refused to react at being appointed "officiating head", saying he was "in deep shock". He is already chairman of Satguru Partap Singh Apollo Hospital, the CEO of Namdhari Seeds and the patron of a hockey team, Namdhari 11. A third contender for the top post is Jai Singh, the son of Satguru's only daughter, Jai Kaur. Jai's husband is known to wield considerable influence.

there's a full report here - well done to all involved and hope to see more and more Dasam Granth Events around the WORLD http://www.sikhnugget.com/2013/08/khalsa-di-virsa-seminars-2013-glory-of.html Khalsa Da Virsa Seminars 2013-The Glory of the Sikh Scriptures (USA)- Under the aegis of Guru Granth Sahib several seminars on the Heritage of the Khalsa and Amrit Banis were organised. The first was on July 27, 2013 at Gurdwara Sahib San Jose, California. At the outset it was emphasised that Guru Granth Grant Sahib is the only Guru of the Panth but Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is from divine pen of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and will remain integral part of the Khalsa fabric. The apt attention and silence with which the audience listened to the renowned scholars showed their urge and desire to know and grasp the glory of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the scriptures of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The seminar started with a phone message of Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar Sri Akal Takht Sahib where he reminded that there are people trying to spread misinformation about Gurbani and especially Dasam Granth. The need of the hour is to bring out the truth to the Sangat.The Hukumnamas of Sri Akal Takht Sahib of 2006 and 2008 were reiterated which gave sanction to these seminars to be undertaken. Dr. Harbhajan Singh from Punjabi University Patiala, and an authority on Gurbani, gave a lecture on the authorship of Sri Dasam Granth. He mesmerised the audience with the purpose, intent and motive of the writings of Sri Dasam Granth. He reeled out instances and references from the scripture to show how all the banees of Sri Dasam Granth are interconnected and can only be from one author. He gave details about the concept of kaal and akaal in Sri Dasam Granth. He was candid in giving details of Charitropakhyan and gave instances from the scripture. His book was well received by the sangat. Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba. Dr Jodh Singh, Dr Harbhajan Singh, S Gurinder Singh Mann and Gyani Sher Singh answering questions from the sangat. Gurinder Singh Mann a scholar from the UK who has done commendable work on the sources and different Birhs of Dasam Granth gave details of his research. In his presentation he showed different editions of Dasam Granth found at different places and their relevance.He was praised for explaining how relics of the Khalsa were important sources of Sikh History. Describing a a rare copper plate, the swords of the khalsa he showed how Dasam Bani had been inscribed onto material items. He closed his ground breaking lecture with how the British had viewed the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib including his description of the first Sri Bachitra Natak English translation. His book Sri Dasam Granth Questions and Answers sold out within the first few hours of the programme. Giani Sher Singh of Gurdwara Manji Sahib Ambala gave references from different Banis of Dasam Granth and their relevance. He emphasized that the intent and purpose of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in giving this scripture was to infuse the spirit of Guru Granth Sahib in the Khalsa. Dr. Jodh Singh from Punjabi University, Patiala gave details from Sri Dasam Granth, its poetry and impact on the society. Using anecdotes from Sri Bachitra Natak and Charitropakhyan. S. Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba also spoke on the importance and impact of Dasam Bani. Other speakers included S Gurpreet Singh, S. Prabhsharandeep Singh, and Dr. Sukhmandar Singh Dr Gurtej Singh, Organiser of the Programmes. The whole program was conducted by Dr. Gurtej Singh who noted that the organizers of “Khalsa Da Virsa – Amrit Baani” seminar decided to invite scholars who could shed light on the Sikh scriptures and try to clear doubts caused by the overwhelming negative parchar . The main focus of this seminar was that the Gurbani of our eternal Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is “Dhur Kee Baani’ or the Revealed Word, and the saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that we have today is the authentic and is the same as compiled by Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Damdama Sahib. The other main focus of this seminar was to preserve faith in “Khande de Pahul”, our Ardas, and a Sikh’s daily Nitnem Banis; which are from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Dasam Granth. The event was broadcast live on Sikh Sangat Radio and San Jose Gurdwara Websites. According to Sikh the Sangat Radio team, " there was over 2000 people watching and listening live to the programme at it's peak." This motive was achieved to the full as the doubts were dispelled and faith was strengthened. So much so that those who had some misgivings were saying openly that now they realize how they were misled by unscrupulous pseudo scholars. Riverside Gurdwara 7940 Mission Blvd, Riverside, 28 July 2013 An additional programme was held at Riverside Gurdwara, Los Angeles. The theme was again based on the San Jose programme. The participants were Dr Jodh Singh, Dr Harbhajan Singh, Gurinder Singh Mann. The programme was conducted by the Gurpreet Singh.The programme was well received by the sangat.The scholars were later questioned on the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib to which they gave befitting replies. New York The Sikh scholars also appeared on the TV channel GetPunjabi. The scholars were posed questions by host Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba. The themes covered the importance of Dasam banis and the false allegations made by writers on the deeper meanings on Guru Gobind Singh's Granth. Gurdwara Sahib Sikh Centre New York 3 August 2013 The Seminar was held in Queens New York. The organisers wanted to ensure that the east coast of America was also witness to the wealth of knowledge held by the Speakers. The programme commenced with the Dhadi Jatha Baddowal Walian Bibian. The Gurdwara President Sirdar Hardev Singh explained there was a dire need for this seminar as all Sikhs needed to follow the Sikh Rehat Maryada, the resolutions of Sri Akal Takht(on Dasam Granth) and the bani of Guru Gobind Singh. Dr Gurtej Singh again introduced the speakers and gave a inspiring start by explaining there was no difference in the Guru's thoughts and ideas as reflected in both Sikh Scriptures. Some highlights included Dr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba stating that the key concepts and words like 'Ardas', 'Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh', were all derived from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. Gyani Sher Singh explained the role of Shastars and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib as well as giving explanations of some of the Charitras within Charitropakhyan. Dr Harbhajan Singh explained the role of Kharag Singh within Krishna Avatar and the recent views that the Granth was created by the British and Brahmins was not only laughable but was putting the religion into disrepute. Dr. Jodh Singh gave interesting observations on ho the creation of Dasam bani was to uplift the Sikhs and make them into the Khalsa they are now. S. Gurinder Singh Mann showed how Dasam Bani from the time of the Tenth Guru formed a pivotal part of the Khalsa, and hence the debates on the Granth were a modern creation which had no basis in history. The event was televised by Getpunjabi TV station. The speakers were appreciated by the event organisers and the Sangat alike. The participants were honoured with gold medals at the end of the event. Dr Harbhajan Singh, S. Gurinder Singh Mann, Gurcharnjit Singh Lamba, Gyani Sher Singh, Dr Jodh Singh being honoured by Gurdwara Committe members and Sewadars Overall the programmes were a major success and sent a strong message to the individuals who were spreading hate and questioning the Amrit Banis and the status of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. The Seminars stated that the attacks on the foundations of the Khalsa were generated by non scholars and part time writers who had not undertaken any research on Guru Gobind Singh's Granth. It was also confirmed that that further programmes would be scheduled on a larger and grander scale in the future. Reporting by www.sridasamgranth.com from the original by Patshahi 10.org If a Gurdwara Sahib or an organization want to sponsor a similar seminar they should contact gurtej.singh@khalsa.com The books Sri Dasam Granth Sahib: Questions and Answers can be obtained fromwww.archimedespress.co.uk or email: gsmann@ntlworld.com The book Karta Sambandhi Vivad Di Punar Samikhia by Dr Harbhajan Singh can be obtained from Kashmir Singh: email: Kashmirkhalsa@gmail.com

Gurinder Singh Mann UK goes through a number of historical manuscripts and relics in relation to Sri Dasam Granth. Covering a swords, a breastplate and a copper plate of Guru Gobind Singh. His presentation also reveals the first English translation of Sri Bachitra Natak. Visit www.sikhscholar.co.uk

We had problems mainly with a group of staunch <Edited> style muslims who also used to attack the islamic society for being too moderate once we had a stall for the sikh soc at freshers fair and two of them approached and started asking that if god is everywhere ? is he up your bum and is he in the toilet? etc why did Guru Nanak go to Mecca? is it because he respected islam and wanted to be a muslim? etc The security guard was there but they couldn't be removed for just talking a crowd started to gather and it was getting more and more disruptive while we were trying to recruit freshers, they would approach the freshers and start telling them that they should follow the true path and abandon false prophets. I tried to speak to them and any explanation i gave them just led to more and more questions, they werent really interested in learning or asking legitimate questions just to disrupt and undermine us. I lost my cool a bit and just said out loud " tell me this brother, what kind of religion permits a 52 year old man to marry a 9 year old girl ? " their only explanation was that "in hot countries girls mature quicker" The crowd was shocked and wanted to know more but they had no choice but to retreat and leave as they couldn't explain it. I have been involved in many interfaith events and worked alongside people of all faiths to try to improve community cohesion and relations. We had a good relationship with the hindu and islamic society but there will always be people around who don't like it and will try their best to attack other peoples faiths.

i have no problem accepting other peoples faiths and in equality respecting all - this is the true path of Sikhi but be warned - Not all people of other faiths feel the same way on a few occasions while doing parchaar at universities we were faced with challenges when dealing with people of other faiths trying to undermine or ridicule our faith. I found this unacceptable, as we had not gone out of our way to cause trouble. so when faced with such opposition we had no choice but to reply with questions about their own faith. The Gurus had no problems pointing out religious hypocrisy and injustice.

You can also meet Giani Kirpal Singh who is the main granthi at Guru Nanak Gurdwara, Stratford Road - a veteran Nihang of Hariavela Dal really lovely humble Nihang Singh, loads of Gian and just a gupt singh, very rare these days

mohameds practices where not what i would consider ethical or becoming of a religious or holy person, Guru Gobind singh ji in the above quote in dlabirs post clearly tells the truth. islam has many practices and beleifs which i will never understand - what shocks me most is when meeting muslim scholars and converts they say islam is a religion of peace and equality when it clearly lacks the directives and safeguards that would ensure attrocities are not committed there is just too much ambiguity, and too much that can be exploited by extremists, paedophiles and groomers to justify their actions. Sikhi is by far much clearer - regardless of little thigns we disagree on (that peopel love arguing about on the forums) I am proud that all sikhs regardless of views are on the same page when it comes to treatment of prisoners in war and conduct of sikh soldiers in battle. While above i mentioned that racists comments should be moderated but legitimate concerns and criticism should not be stopped as we need to arm our youth with as much knowledge about islam as possible, so when they are approached and the conversions begin our youth can give them all the points where Sikhi fixed many of the problems caused by ambiguity of existing dharams as per dalbir singhs post above. One thing which has come out of this grooming situation in the UK is that more and more people have started to enquire and read and research what mohamed actually did authorise and what are the beliefs of the muftis who sit at the centre of islam in Mecca. so this type of conversation and discussion should be encouraged and explored. Every Sikh camp should have a module on Islam and the above points covered in full , so that when converters do approach our youth their lies can clearly be challenged. I have noticed another trend within the community which is just as bad as racism and that is people who are too scared to say anything or let anything be said which might offend others. while i have no hatred for muslims, we should not be shy of the truth the fact is that a majority of gang grooming cases in the UK involve Muslim men abusing girls from other communities. Now i am not disrespecting islam i am merely stating the facts and we should teach all of our children that you need be careful as there are dangerous people out there, don't be naive and live in a fantasy world, be careful and protect your families through awareness and education - not hate.

yes have to agree Nafrat(hatred) isn't good for the atma - when you get to the point when you hate a people so much even their innocent women and children then you have just become like the enemy. the key is to fight injustice but not become a tyrant yourself in the process. throughout Sikh struggles the enemy has used torture, murder, rape and pillage against us but the guru Instructed the Sikhs that they must not partake in these type of revenges and always maintain a high standard of being, respect life and innocence. The Sikh when faced with the enemies women the Sikhs would escort them to safe destinations , which won them the hearts of the people. qazi noor mohamed a battle chronicler of the Persian invaders of India wrote about the Sikhs and said we should shed our hatred and work tirelessly to stop crimes like grooming, but not resort to name calling and racism. the people who do get racist and abusive, actually do no good for the campaign against tackling issues facing us all, because when legitimate concerns are aired they are drowned out in the chants of hatred and swearing. So we get labelled as racists and our concerns are ignored. they play right into the hands of the groomers and their defenders - as it gives them all the ammunition they need to say oh look! they just don't like us whereas we should be saying we have nothing against Islam but there are too many pakistani grooming cases and there are some forms of islamic interpretation that can encourage or even cause young Muslim men to think of other peoples women are worth nothing and commit horrific crimes of torture rape and abuse I would suggest the moderators keep an eye and ensure posts with legitimate news and concerns and discussion are allowed but blatant racism and hatred is blocked.

basics of sikhi is awesome - so many people i meet especially youngsters they have learnt so much and have started coming gurdwara and asking for english katha whenever i meet people and they ask questions about sikhi - i just say just youtube "basics of Sikhi" - and they all love it that singh has done a wicked seva man - we need more professional preachers like him and no one will touch our youth ! he is doing a lot of good for the sangat, and he's got a lot of support from the sangat aswell and he loves sikhi man ! that's one i thing i definatly know about him - put all that talking aside, hes a just a young Singh like the rest of us trying to do something good. wether you think its needed or not just let them carry on - you dont see people arguing that the extra sabji for the langar is unneeded we need every parchaar we can get

There are some forms of extremist islam that promote the type of mentality that leads to Grooming , the following post will really shock you http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000292/Men-allowed-sex-slaves-female-prisoners-job--WOMAN-politician-Kuwait.html Men should be allowed sex slaves and female prisoners could do the job - and all this from a WOMAN politician from KuwaitBy DAILY MAIL REPORTER UPDATED: 16:38, 7 June 2011 A Kuwaiti woman who once ran for parliament has called for sex slavery to be legalised - and suggested that non-Muslim prisoners from war-torn countries would make suitable concubines. Salwa al Mutairi argued buying a sex-slave would protect decent, devout and 'virile' Kuwaiti men from adultery because buying an imported sex partner would be tantamount to marriage. And she even had an idea of where to 'purchase' these sex-salves - browsing through female prisoners of war in other countries. Outrageous ideas: Salwa al-Mutairi's suggestions have provoked anger and disbelief The political activist and TV host even suggested that it would be a better life for women in warring countries as the might die of starvation. Mutairi claimed: 'There was no shame in it and it is not haram' (forbidden) under Islamic Sharia law.' More...'From now, embarrassment will end': Saudi King bans men from selling lingerie She gave the example of Haroun al-Rashid, an 8th century Muslim leader who ruled over an area covered by modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria and was rumoured to have 2,000 concubines. Mutairi recommended that offices could be opened to run the sex trade in the same way that recruitment agencies provide housemaids. Example: Mutairi cited Haroun al-Rashid as a man who also had concubines She suggested shopping for prisoners of war so as to protect Kuwaiti men from being tempted to commit adultery or being seduced by other women's beauty. 'For example, in the Chechnyan war, surely there are female Russian captives,' she said. 'So go and buy those and sell them here in Kuwait. Better than to have our men engage in forbidden sexual relations.' Her unbelievable argument for her plan was that ‘captives’ might 'just die of hunger over there'. She insisted, 'I don’t see any problem in this, no problem at all'. In an attempt to consider the woman's feelings in the arrangement, Mutari conceded that the enslaved women, however, should be at least 15. Browsing: Mutair says female war prisoners could be bought and kept as sex slaves Mutairi said free women must be married with a contract but with concubines 'the man just buys her and that’s it. That’s enough to serve as marriage.' Her remarks, made in a video posted on YouTube last month and carried by newspapers in the Gulf states in recent days, have sparked outrage in cyber-space from fellow Kuwaitis and others in the wider region. 'Wonder how Salwa al Mutairi would’ve felt if during the occupation (of Kuwait) by Iraqi forces, she was sold as ‘war booty’ as she advocates for Chechen women,' tweeted Mona Eltahawy. Another tweeter, Shireen Qudosi, told Mutairi 'you’re a disgrace to women everywhere'. For Muna Khan, an editor at the Saudi-owned Al Arabiya television station, the 'icing on the cake' of Mutairi’s 'preposterous views' was her assertion that her suggestions do not conflict with the tenets of Islam. Shopping for sex: Mutairi said that during a recent visit to Mecca, pictured, Saudi muftis said it was not forbidden to own a sex slave Mutairi said that during a recent visit to Mecca, she asked Saudi muftis – Muslim religious scholars – what the Islamic ruling was on owning sex slaves. They are said to have told her that it is not haram. The ruling was confirmed by 'specialized people of the faith' in Kuwait, she claimed. 'They said, that’s right, the only solution for a decent man who has the means, who is overpowered by desire and who does not want to commit fornication, is to acquire jawari.' Jawari is the plural of the Arabic term jariya, meaning 'concubine' or 'sex slave'. One Saudi mufti supposedly told Mutairi: 'The context must be that of a Muslim nation conquering a non-Muslim nation, so these jawari have to be prisoners of war.' Concubines, she argued, would suit Muslim men who fear being 'seduced or tempted into immoral behaviour by the beauty of their female servants'.

the issue this thread is dealing with isn't about effectiveness, so don't try to swerve the debate a gun is very effective ! a pint glass in the face is very effective, and a screwdriver is pretty dangerous ! the issue is... learning shastarvidiya from budha dal, adding in loads of other arts then passing it off as the original ancient vidya and stating you are the last 9nth generation master when there are 8th generation still alive and many of their students. another issue is behaviour and arrogance among his students and the cult like characteristics of his school also his inability to produce teachers, as he wants to be the last ! surely if he's been teaching for 15 or so years, his students have learnt something - therefore he isn't the last maybe "The second to last Sikh warrior" and if he's got more then one shagird then will they have to fight over the title of who will be the last sikh warrior? finally its his blatant disregard and mockery that he has made of Sikhi by preaching his snatan ideology which totally goes against the reform brought about by guru Gobind Singh ji and the Khalsa Teesar Panth. And maybe I can agree the effectiveness of nidar is really good - his effectiveness to turn young Sikhs to alcohol drugs and loose morals far outweighs any good he is doing. You lot may think he is effective but i think he's a coward as anyone can do demos he should answer his OWN Had-Torh challenge and give us the parameters of the fight as we have challengers ready, then lets see how effective he really is ? and on the recent redesign of his website the had torh challenge seems to have disappeared does this mean he has retracted this challenge? its amazing how nidar cusses everyone, puts pictures of gursikhs calling them pakhandis, says the taksal has no lineage, disses our shaheed singhs, his students give us grief at our camps , challenges everyone to a duel ..... and I AM CALLED the trouble causer ?

pretty much everyone is intermarrying already and there are a brave few parents who defy the duniya and support their kids marriages to other castes regardless of what the pronai say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23545028 Leicester child prostitution: Victim praised for bravery Aabidali Mubarak Ali, Rakib Iacub and Wajid Usman all pleaded guilty Continue reading the main story Related StoriesThree admit paying girl, 16, for sex Sex gang accused 'spoke to others' Men 'paid for sex with girl, 16' A 16-year-old girl who was the victim of sexual exploitation in Leicester has been praised for her bravery in coming forward. Three men admitted paying the child, who told them she was a prostitute, for sex minutes before she was due to take the stand at Leicester Crown Court. Police and social workers said her actions brought the men to justice. A man who knows the case told the BBC she had been "through hell and back" and was trying to rebuild her life. The teenager, who cannot be named, was described as "very damaged and vulnerable" in court. Continue reading the main story “Start Quote The review that was carried out internally has shown that all the proper processes were followed” Paul BurnettChairman, Leicestershire and Rutland Safeguarding Children Board On Thursday, Aabidali Mubarak Ali, 39, Rakib Iacub, 20, and Wajid Usman, all of Leicester, admitted paying a child for sex. 'Been through hell' Mohan Singh told BBC Leicester: "She was gearing herself up to actually give evidence in court, she's tossing and turning all night long and 10 minutes before she's actually to go on she gets the news that she doesn't have to. "How does a 16-year-old child, who has actually been through hell and back, cope with something like that? "She doesn't actually know what's happening. She's very tired and very on edge at the moment." All three men admitted paying a child for sex while Ali and Iacub also admitted facilitating child prostitution. Paul Burnett, chairman of the Leicestershire and Rutland Safeguarding Children Board, ordered a review by the agencies involved. He said: "These young people are often coerced and manipulated into these activities and whilst they are in those situations they often don't recognise themselves that it's wrong and particularly find it difficult to share that information with others. "The review that was carried out internally has shown that all the proper processes were followed," he added. Ali, Iacub, and Usman will be sentenced on 30 August.

This is a report that was aired on the Sikh Channel featuring Bhai Mohan Singh of Sikh Awareness Society talking about the recent case in leicester Please join SAS facebook page to keep up to date on latest issues https://www.facebook.com/SikhAwarenessSocietySAS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhxSzHu0FSU&feature=youtu.be&a

its non stop at the moment every week there's a new case http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-23544913 Teenage girls sex exploitation: Ten men charged in Coventry Ten men have been charged with offences including rape, sexual assault and trafficking of at least five girls aged between 16 and 18. West Midlands Police allege the offences were committed in Coventry between May and September 2012. Five of the men are due to appear at the city's crown court in November. Five others will appear before magistrates in Coventry later. The accused are aged between 19 and 30, a police spokesman said. Children's services Three brothers, Gulfraz Banaris, 20, and Ifaraz Banaris, 25, both of Deedmore Road, Wood End, and Izthkhab Banaris, 24, of Eld Road, all Coventry, are charged with conspiracy to traffic girls across the city. Gulfraz and Izthkhab Banaris are also accused of rape. They appeared before magistrates on Thursday and were remanded in custody to appear again on 7 November. Two other brothers, Isa Iqbal, 21, and Ismail Iqbal, 20, both of no fixed address, also face trafficking charges and will appear in court in November. Five other men are due to appear in court in Coventry later in connection with the same inquiry. Ricardo Hinkson, 23, from Telfer Road, Radford; Amir Mahmood, 27, of Blackwell Road, both Coventry and Tasveer Hussain, 30, of Canal Road, Foleshill, have been charged with conspiracy to traffic within the UK for the purposes of sexual exploitation. Saleem Hussain, 30, of Beake Avenue, Coventry, faces a charge of sexual assault, and 25-year-old Khezer Hussain, from Bordesley Green East, Stechford, Birmingham, has been charged with an offence of rape. A spokesman said the five girls were being supported by specially-trained police officers and staff from Coventry City Council's children's services section.

I agree with Jeevan we all have to get together and coordinate , if we don't represent in local government level then we don't exist legalsingh - best of luck with that one.... things that may seem like trivial problems to an adult can be life ending for children and teenagers - i'm just glad there's a Sikh helpline and there's not people like you at the end of the PHONE