Charandhoor Singh

Singhstah the problem with your undertstanding of moh being attachment to that what is not vaheguru - well what is not vaheguru and what is vaheguru? 'True love' is also a bit vague, in Punjabi there are several types of 'love' - prem, ishq, mohobit, pyar... what one are you referring to? And of course theres the concept of love in itself, what exactly do you mean by love? (i.e. in gurmat 'love' means two souls merging into one) perhaps extending to realising that there was only one to start with. Becoming attached to something exterior means that you will not recognise it inside yourself. 'Sachkhand is vaheguru himself' striking statements like this require a bit of justifcation. Also if Sachkhand is vaheguru what are the the other khands - devi devte?

Great question, fantastic. I was about to say pretty much exactly the same thing as Namastang. Perhaps the passage below is a good way to begin this dicussion, with the grace of Guru Nanak may it be a fruitful discussion. Whenever we have a dualistic notion such as, "I am doing this because I want to achieve a particular state of consciousness, a particular state of being," then automatically we separate ourselves from the reality of what we are. If we ask ourselves, "What is wrong with evaluating, with taking sides?" the answer is that, when we formulate a secondary judgment, "I should be doing this and should avoid doing that," then we have achieved a level of complication which takes us a long way from the basic simplicity of what we are. The simplicity of meditation means just experiencing the ape of instinct of ego. If anything more than this is laid onto our psychology, then it becomes a very heavy, thick mask, a suit of armor. It is important to see that the main point of any spiritual practice is to strip out of the bureaucracy of ego. This means stepping out of ego's constant desire for a higher, more spiritual, more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, virtue, judgment, comfort or whatever it is that the particular ego is seeking. ... Chogyam Trungpa - Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism

If you wish to use that exceptional case as a justification for perverting the Gur Mantr ( A topic which i believe was discussed here so time ago and soon locked), then it really does beg the question as to why the Gurmantr was given to us the way it was when it can be said any way we wish? When reading gurbani can we say that anyway we wish? Can we miss letters out from words that we read in Japji Sahib, does high level avastha mean we can read Gurbani as we see fit? Hence as Namastang is mentioned that case is an exception, using it to justify a increasingly alarming trend has great consequences for many maryadas.

I admire your harmonic way of thinking but it doesnt really work in intelectual discussion I'm afriad. Respect to your understanding, but the 'Bhasuaria' issue is unforunately not about accepting or rejecting peoples views. It is about individuals reforming the Sikh Traditions of our Gurus. Many puratan sampradavas differ tremendously on a lot of issues, yet that hasnt lead to them reforming Sikhi in a way that damages fundamental principles of Sikhi. The my way or the highway certainly is a dangerous way of thinking, but I dont think thats what Neos been falling into. Rejecting and whole heartedly exposing perverted and corrupt reforms done to ones religion is not something which can be criticised. May you forever be at peace. Satnaam Sri Vaheguru.

Namastang I have heard that Bhasauria and his jatha also burnt a lot of puratan saroops, can you confirm this?

If what is written below is correct it equates to about £75 million of missing money. SGPC poll a ‘dharam yudh’, says Baba Bedi K.S. Chawla Ludhiana, July 5 Baba Sarbjot Singh Bedi, president of the Gurmat Sidhant Parcharak Sant Samaj and chief patron of the Panthic Morcha, said here today that the SGPC elections were a “dharam yudh” to cleanse the gurdwaras of maladministration and restore the “maryada” of the Sikh religion. He said the elections should be a purely religious affair and no politics should be involved. “Sikhs should throw out the anti-Sikh forces working at the instance of the RSS. The politicians should also be thrown out,” he said. Talking to this correspondent he said the Panthic Morcha was committed to restoring the supremacy of Akal Takht and its autonomy. It would also set up a separate secretariat for Akal Takht. Alleging large-scale corruption in the SGPC, Baba Bedi said SAD president Parkash Singh Badal was helping committee officials who had not paid lakhs of rupees to the educational institutions being run with the money received as offerings at gurdwaras. He alleged that Mr Badal had got them “no-dues certificates” from the SGPC offices. Baba Bedi said the annual income of the SGPC was not Rs 200 crore but Rs 800 crore. A theft of Rs 600 crore was taking place in the SGPC funds. “We are collecting data about all such doings and will soon expose those responsible,” he added. He demanded that renowned economists should look after the accounts of the SGPC. Baba Bedi claimed that more than 90 per cent of the candidates of the Panthic Morcha were staunch Sikhs whereas a large number of candidates put up by Mr Badal were “patit” Sikhs.

Wow that thread on the destruction of history s very powerful and a great eye opener. I suggest everyone reads that link on Sikhawareness.

Namastang the voice of reason has spoken

Respect !

Thanks for your reply, veerji are you aware of anyone propogating anti-dasam granth views before Bhasauria?

Are the idealogical and physical battles fought by the Bhasaurias the first instance of great disunity between Sikh organisations based on beliefs? I am not sure on this. Someone has earlier mentioned that for hundreds of years Sikh brothers and sisters have lived in unity, now we are disunited... is this due to Bhasauria legacy? Anyone...?

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=32937 The newspaper page posted on that thread has two articles regarding the issue. Baba Surjit Singh has been recieving support from the Siikh Student Federation for a while now - anyone know who they are?

Chatanga Ji both. Baba Kharak Singh, I have mentioned this before. Baba Kharak Singh supported a lot of Kharkhoo Singhs, he would openly serve them langer - he was one of the most revered Singhs of his time. Balbir got him killed. When I mentioned this before and the fact that Balbir got khalastani and nihang singhs killed Vijaydeep Singh claimed that my statements had no legitimacy, the whole Budha Dal now backs this claim. Many Singhs also say he was a police cat similar to Phoola. Jathedars of various chaunees who would not accept balbir as jathedar have been severely beaten, arrested by police and their families harrassed. He has been exherting force on all mahants as he says that he is the legal heir of Baba Santa Singh. Subsequently, all chaunees have been placed under the charge of Baba Joginder Singh and the Budha Dal will stick as one so that no single Nihang Singh will persecuted. Baba Joginder Singh has been selected to run all affairs of the Budha Dal, just now he is representing the voice of the Dalpanth. At the meeting Gurdwara Damdama Sahib Pathshahi 6 (Rakba), more than 10,000 Nihang Singhs were present. I am glad this has happened as it highlights that around 99% of those associated with one of the Nihang Singhs Dals do not accept Balbir as Jathedar, contrary to what certain people have tried to portray. It will be interesting to see what happens, so far I don't think any government spokesman has commented on this, the deadline is in a few days.

Government issued with ultimatum

Neo any idea when that thread is getting re-opened? Its been a week now...admin sahib whats going on? Truth censoring?

"I know it has serious Bahmanvad in it but" Really? care to expand?

http://www.ajitjalandhar.com/20071208/ (scroll half way down the page) http://www.***anti-sikh website not allowed***/fullpage.as...=08&pview=5 (look in the bottom right hand corner) The Rozana article highlights that every major jathedar and mahapursh in the Budha Dal is againt Balbir Singh. The Ajit Picture shows a lot of Singhs from Tarana Dal present.

I read the below on Sikhawareness and was wondering if anyone from India knew anything more about it: Sri Akaal Ji Sahai! I'm happy to announce that Jathedar Baba Joginder Singh has been announced as the next Jathedar of Budha Dal after Panth Patshah Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Ji 96 Kroree. There was no 'fighting over power' (amardeep) all the jathebandi decided that Baba Ji was best to head the dal. Baba Ji has extensive knowledge of Budha Dal history and took santhiyaa from the asthaan of Sant Gyani Sundar Singh Ji Bhinderawale. Waheguroojikakhalsawaheguroojikifateh! http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...&highlight=

http://www.ajitjalandhar.com/20071208/ (scroll half way down the page) http://www.***anti-sikh website not allowed***/fullpage.as...=08&pview=5 (look in the bottom right hand corner)

Its not bad, nowhere near as detailed or in depth as Baba Santa Singhs steek though. Dude atleast add Singh when referring to him, hes from a family of shaheeds.

Having diverged slightly lets know get back on track: A summation of some reforms by Bhasaurias: - Generally started the trend that Gurbani can be questioned on the basis of an individuals personal morals. The intellect of an individual is alone is enough to determine whether something is or is not bani. Using our mat (ego) we can determine what Gurmat is... or as what modern Bhasaurias love to use 'Nanakian Philosophy'. - The 'Sant' debate was instigated by them. No one denies that perhaps the majority of people who are termed Sant are not fit for the title. Yet, this does not give one the right to change the meaning of the word. The words meaning has changed (ever so slightly) within the context of where it is used. - The above error is due to Bhasauria belief that there can only be one meaning for everything fails to take into other important tools for Gurbani interepretation. They have deprived Gurbani of its esoteric meaning, which essentially one has to obtain santhiya from a vidiya gurdev and then learn arths very deeply. The need for a gurdev/ustad is not seen as that important anymore. Some organisations now of 'Professors', but as the lecture of Gyani Sher Singh (link poster earlier) highlights; these people have not even followed the teachings of their professors. - A general 'De-Hinduisation' based on nothing more than paranio, i.e. editing of words from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Rather than understanding the philsophy behind references to avtars etc, they edited Gurbani and without providing any great research asserted that Gurbani had been edited by Hindus. - Introduced a Protestant/Victorian ideals/moral System, this is probably the basis of much of the above and has been the cause of so many controversies arising between puratan sampradas and new organisations such as Sikh Missionary College. - Unless I am misinformed, I believe before the Bhasauria no one ever discredited or wrote anything against the bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Not looking for an arguement on Dasam Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, would like to know if anyone before Bhasauria every questioned dasam maharajs bani? This debate is one of the biggest topics that divides the panth - was it started by Bhasauria are were they propagating the research of someone before them? The legacy is deeply inbread into current Sikh parchar. Are the idealogical and physical battles fought by the Bhasaurias the first instance of great disunity between Sikh organisations based on beliefs? I am not sure on this. Someone has earlier mentioned that for hundreds of years Sikh brothers and sisters have lived in unity, now we are disunited... is this due to Bhasauria legacy?

Matheen if you witness a Budha Dal amrit sanchar they say that those who take khande pahul da amrit should always have a blue keski. The Panj Pyarai conduct checks to make sure all the Singhs have a white kacherra and blue keski. The Budha Dal Rehat maryada clearly mentions kesh as kakkar but also says you should have a keski.

Gurfateh I am sorry but I didn't label you or anyone else as anything. I simply highlighted that some of the rationale you provided for your logic is common of Bhasauria type thinking. Not an attempt to judge you or anyone else, simply an observation of the views you have expressed. I think your getting a bit emotional paji, saying that the mistake you make a common mistake with gurbani that is the same mistake that Bhasaurias make is hardly bullying. I am sure you are a good guy, but as stated, the way in which you think Gurbani should be interpretated is something that is very dangerous and a view which become predominant during the bhasauria period. Its not the intolerance of the Bhasuaria I despise, its their perverted reforms I am against. I have not tried to label anyone anything. Also i did say it was necessary to first respond to the post regarding different types of Mahapursh before carrying this aspect of the discussion further.

I will let Namastang respond to the individual points; this is in reply to what you wrote before your supposed ‘addressing’ of Namastangs points. I don’t think the defence tactic is going to work, where perverted reforms have occurred and where false ideologies are allowed to flourish, responses and counter arguments to those who love reformist Sikhi have been provided. That does not mean one has failed to recognise the One Universal Divine element with everything, their allegiance to truth and Gurmat philosophy has simply not allowed them allow false parchar to be done. It should be noted that many of your errors have been the result of not understanding words within their context or out with out of the personal implications those words have for you. This is common flaw of Bhasuria types. Although you have eloquently called Gurbani ‘Spiritual’ you have also failed to so the esoteric value behind tuks of Gurbani. This is why puratan sampradavas and taksals in Sikhi are still very important. I think it was Gyaani Sant Singh Maskin that said there are more than 100 different ways in Japji Sahib has been translated, each one of them is correct. Hukam is undoubtedly one of the most fundamental teachings of Gurmat. The word hukam has implications much higher reaching than ‘command’ what you have implied. Exoterically it does mean in simply to obey the command of the Guru, yet we know hukam to mean so much more. It is a surrendering of ones own will into that which is essentially One. You can not out rightly state something is wrong (as you have done at the beginning of your post). The worst thing is, what you have said has already been countered with examples of different kinds of Brahmgianis, you didn’t reply to that but again claimed something so bold. If when someone is fully merged with the hukam what meaning does anything external have? Probably very little. What do you define hukam as, can anything be outwith of hukam? Therefore how can the removing of kakkars be against hukam? You have also failed to look beyond the exoteric meanings of Rehat. More so than exteriors practises, it is the inner way of ones living. How he thinks, the thought behind every action. When Maharaj says that he loves those who have rehat do you really think he just meant people who wake up in the morning, wear exterior symbols then attend the Gurdwara? For example, the term jati does not mean someone who is chaste in action, but someone who is chaste in thought. What use is suppressing an action when the mind constantly yearns for it. Are those who commit adultery worse than those who constantly fantasise about it but never do it? The more the resist the more it persist. (Of course neither is ‘right’) Having established that inner rehat is more important than outer rehat, a ‘brahmgiani’ cannot be confided simply. Saying that, I must that I do believe that rehat (exterior) taught by Guru Gobind Singh is an ideal way to leave and a divine code of righteousness to be bound by. Therefore, one someone has merged with the divine and lost sense of material life, how can they be confined by external practises, values and attire? All is within the will of Akaal. Yet, namashkar to those mahapursh who even after achieving brahmgian have lived what they practises and set an example to their shardaloo. This has already been mentioned in Namastangs post, but as I said earlier you didn’t reply to any of these. Please respond to Namastangs points before responding to any of the above as this is a continuation. There is no point in carrying on with discussion if you are not going to address important and fundamental posts such as the one on different types of Brahmgianis. I have refrained from commenting on keski thus far, all I wish to say is that following on from establishing internal and external values; it is appalling that bibia without keski are looked down upon. It is equally repulsive that people believe because of one item of cloth is missing from a persons head they will be rejected by God. This is the type of mentality of Christian Missionarys that were prevalent in India, I am not surprised that Bhasuria and his counterparts adopted this type of thinking as well as a general value system this is based on Protestant ideals. I must say I am very disturbed by the belief that Gurbani only has one meaning. Likewise by the way in which AKJ views katha, I was not previously aware of this. As for the Sant thing, I had an AKJ calendar a few years ago that said AKJ is against the use of the word Sant, though that does not deny there are many pakhandis. No one has tried to make this an AKJ bashing thing, but I must say the opinions you have expressed are rooted from classic Bhasuaria thinking and errors. I hope ‘AKJ 4eva’ (have a happy 4eva life btw) is satisfied and send him a personal invite him to provide an educational response.

Namashkar to the Charan of Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, a mahapursh with great Roub, whos image sends chills down the spine of the malech. Khalistan Zindabad, you are right, that guy does look like some wanna be thug with his ring and big watch... hes fooooool bruv !!!