Gurvah

Waheguru ji! A very comprehensive program organised. However, one thing that strikes me is that why is the sehaj paath bhog of Sri Dasam Granth being done in the middle of the Sri Akhand Paath Sahib? I don't have a problem with the Dasam granth Paath, but surely by doing this the focus of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani is being diverted. In puraatan times, there used to be as many gursikhs listening to Akhand paath as there would be to kirtan. Nowadays, it seems like, although a akhand paath is being done, no really sits annd listens to it. It's just something that happens in the background while other activities such as kirtan, dasam granth bhog take place along side. Isn't this beadhbi of gurbani? If we are doing a akhand path - then lets just do an akhand paath, if we are doing kirtan - lets just do kirtan etc. We can't take full laha of gurbani if we don't sit and listen. I am not just tragetting this message at this program, this happens all over, in Gurdwaray, where there are 10 akhand paths happening at the same time and kirtan also happening in the hall.. who is really listening to what??

Can someone anser this question - When Guru Gobind Singh Ji complied Sri Guru Granth Sahib, why did he not include Dasam Granth Bani in there?

Autobiography of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh (Translated by Dr. Trilochan Singh). Available anywhere in the world: UK - Sikh Missionary Society, Toronto - Sach Sauda, Vancouver - Khalsa School, India - Bhai Randhir Singh Trust, Singh Brothers. Great book - it has insprired and changed the lives of many around the world.

Yes I am well thanks. I agree with your comments and I am in no way trying to turn this in to debate and hope that no one else does. But I hope, as you say people with make up their own minds by researching both sides of the argument, and not following a specific jatha just because you have alliance with them, without doing thier own research. That's why I will read the book bhai sahib has written, as there have been Mahapurkhs in history both pro and anti-raagmala, which is why the panth has not come to a decision. At the end we will all have our own lekha, so make up your own minds by doinfg your own research! WJKK WJKF! Yes I am well thanks. I agree with your comments and I am in no way trying to turn this in to debate and hope that no one else does. But I hope, as you say people with make up their own minds by researching both sides of the argument, and not following a specific jatha just because you have alliance with them, without doing thier own research. That's why I will read the book bhai sahib has written, as there have been Mahapurkhs in history both pro and anti-raagmala, which is why the panth has not come to a decision. At the end we will all have our own lekha, so make up your own minds by doinfg your own research! WJKK WJKF!

Veerji, You have said 2 things in your post which seem to condradict one another: 1. I have written this book from my personal viewpoint on this issue. 2. I should also make all of the readers aware that this book is merely a translation of a number of commentaries which I have edited. I do not have the level of spirituality to create such works. In my mind this it should be one or the other. Furthermore, you say that "I accept every ang of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the authentic works under the guidance of the Guru’s. I regard not believing in the Raagmala as a work of the Guru as finding a fault in the spiritual master. It is like stating that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the perfect and complete spiritual master however he had a crooked nose. I deem the individual who is a sceptic over the small composition of the Raagmala as an individual who finds fault within their spiritual master. One who does not have complete faith in the spiritual master cannot gain peace and become liberated. In this small book you will find the commentary of the ‘Sri Raagmala’ with both the basic and spiritual meanings. I hope this book will assist those who cast a doubt over this scripture and help them understand that this is the authentic work of the Guru and no other." No one is doubting that the work of our beloved tenth master Guru Gobind Singh is complete. The concern that the people who having the differing view is that, it was something included afterwards and not by Guru Gobind Singh. I would urge you to read the book 'Mundavane' written by Giani Gurgit Singh, to get a balanced view to make up you own mind. One can only make a judgement by looking at both sides of the story. I will indeed get a copy of your book and read it to learn what the said Gurmukhs have said about Raagmala. WJKK WJKF!

No one should question the authority of Akal Takhat, but when the people who are appointed make the decisions at Akal Takhat are appointed by Badal & Co, does that not question their capability and the fact that someone else is pulling the strings?? What right does Badl have to appoint whatever jathedar he wants and when he wants??

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-family/articles/the-family-returns-meet-the-grewals http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/2681117/Sikh-family-to-be-filmed-247-for-new-telly-show.html

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-family/articles/the-family-returns-meet-the-grewals http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/2681117/Sikh-family-to-be-filmed-247-for-new-telly-show.html

Bhai Sahib had 5 Grandchildren (4 grandsons & 1 grandaughter through his son Bh. Balbir Singh and 1 grandson through his daughter Bibi Daler Kaur) Bhai Balbir Singh was responsible for setting up Trusts in his father's name in order to promote Bhai Sahib's writings and literature by getting these printed for distribution on a no loss - no profit basis. After Bhai Balbir Singh, his son Bhai Manjit Singh has carried on the seva as the Secretary at the Bhai Randhir Trust, Ludhiana where now there has been a School setup to educate not only those that can afford education, but also those that can't. A second school has also been started in Narangwal (Bhai Sahib's ancestral pind), to accomodate the children locally there, along with free classes for young adults who may not have had an education. Many Smagams take place throughout the year at the Trust. On of his other grandsons Bhai Harinder Singh, was invloved in the writing of the book which was published a few years ago about the political struggle of the Lahore conspiracy case. His grandaughter is married and lives in the UK , as says in Bhai Sahib's autobiography I think.

Laying the foundation for our future… Excellence through Integrity.. Sunday 26th April 2009, will mark a momentous day in Southall’s history when the foundation stone of the New Khalsa School in Southall will be laid by the Panj Pyaaray. Singh Sahib Jathedar Tarlochan Singh (Jathedar Sri Kesgarh Sahib), will also be attending, and has agreed to be one of the panj pyaaray. The Trustees & sewadars of Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Southall and the school project cordially invite you and your families to attend and be part of this auspicious occasion. Programme: From 9.00 am onwards - there will be a chance to find out more about school and how to pledge your support, as well as many activities for the children, kirtan and Gatka. Guru Ka langar will be served throughout. We hope to see you & your families all there. Please spread the word.... For more information please see attached poster or call the school on 020 8574 9045

NB: The title should say Foudation Ceremony not Opening Ceremony. Opening will be in September 2009. Laying the foundation for our future… Sunday 26th April 2009, will mark a momentous day in Southall’s history when the foundation stone of the New Khalsa School in Southall will be laid by the Panj Pyaaray. Singh Sahib Jathedar Tarlochan Singh (Jathedar Sri Kesgarh Sahib), will also be attending, and has agreed to be one of the panj pyaaray. The Trustees & sewadars of Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Southall and the school project cordially invite you and your families to attend and be part of this auspicious occasion. Programme: From 9.00 am onwards - there will be a chance to find out more about school and how to pledge your support, as well as many activities for the children, kirtan and Gatka. Guru Ka langar will be served throughout. We hope to see you & your families all there. Please spread the word.... For more information please see attached poster or call the school on 020 8574 9045

Last time we went to see Bhai sahib, I remember that he was having difficulty recognising people. He is a great soul and all his life he has never said No if anyone has asked him to come to a smagam or kirtan, but in his old age, one would question if he is aware what people are asking of him, i.e travelling all the way to UK. He is very frail and weak, and IMHO think people should be a little more considerate towards this. Don’t get me wrong – I would love to see him come to the UK again, but not at the cost of him becoming weaker. He is very old now and we should allow him to rest and peacefully enjoy his time being immersed in the holy sanctity of Harminder sahib. Although if he is fully aware of all this and still wants to come then great!

Lol! Does it matter if its not on the calendar, some programs get organised during the year, does not make in anyway "unofficial"! Keertanees? well it would be kinda pointless if there weren't any, so i guess there will be..

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It doesn' matter if Bhai Harjinder Singh is a jatha singh or not! It is only organised ny AKJ UK, but as long the kirtani keeps Guru sahibs rehat, they may do kirtan seva! Kirtan is kirtan at the end of the day, which is guru sahibs bani.. So enjoy!! :D

Believe me, countless meetings have been held, in order to reach an amicable comprimise, but the comittee don't listen. Firstly as you can read in the reply some of the opposition members had their membership barred so that they wouldnt be able to stand agaisnt the committee, and now they are being barred from the gurdwara so that they cant voice their opinions of the committee. Every member of the sangat has a right to view the accounts of the gurdwara, and the comittee IS answerable to them. they are in a postion of trust which they have many a time violated. Then people ask, why does they sangat vote for them? well several reasons either they blackmail/surpress the sangat into voting for them, they pay them to vote for them (i have first hand experience of this), they turn away members who they think will vote against them and make duplicate ID's for these members for their own people to vote more than once. The same president has been in power for the last 14 years or so. All the opposition wants is a fair election in which the sangat vote openly and fairly and in which the members who vote are recurited fairly. Because the current committee are in control of the members who sign up for voting they can do what they please. In addtion, on election days/AGM's the committee hire their thugs in order to "protect" thmselves and intimidate the sangat. Something needs to be done to respect and maintain the sanctity of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and uplhold the true principles of Guru Gobind Singh ji and Sikh Dharam, May guru bless us with this!!

I think it happens there everyday 5-7 am. Im sure there is a program list with times on the notice board there at the main entrance.

http://www.5abnews.com/demo/details.php?id...;type=taaza_one

Yes it is a registered charity, but the charity commision can only intervene up to a certain point they can't interfere in the internal runnings of the charity. But i wouldn't put it passed Sohi & Co, to have bribed them too, or made out that they are the victims.

Im sure they have considered taking this to court, but that may mean taking a Gurdwara to court and spending more of sangats money - because I doubt the committee will use their own. Maybe if no other options can be seen they will do that!

Sorry K Singh 82, but that is not beadbi, but a genuine mistake. I didn't actually write the article myself, but was copied from somwhere else.

This gurdwara is one of the biggest in UK, if not one of the biggest in the world. It owns assets in excess of £30 million. They built a £17 million gurdwara, which many believe was an outrageous sum to pay, when plans for a similar gurdwara were estimated at nearly half that sum. The committee is not willingly allowing access to the accounts which were spent on this project. So where did all that money go?? No one knows... but apprently £4 million was spent on 'management' fees. They continue to manipulate figures, intimidate the members and keep the truth from the sangat. But im sure the time will come when they have to pay for their actions, the Almighty Lord watches all, and even this maybe in his will!

That's exactly what the conflict is about. Sohi has been in power for the last 14 years and he wins the elections everytime. His committee makes the membership - so they can choose who they want to vote, they conduct the election process so they can rig the votes how they want. They can issue cards to whoever they want and how many they to anyone so people can multi-vote in favour of them. All the other side want is a fair election process. In addition they have suspended 8 memebers of the opposition, therefore they can't even stand in the election against them. Sohi & Co have no respect for the sentiments and respect of the sikh sangat and the principles of sikhi.

Another sad day for Sikhs Sri Guru Singh Sabha – Southall – 17th February 2008 AGM Senseless Violence against the Sangat by the President’s men We report with sadness that the AGM of Sri Guru Singh Sabha on Sunday 17th February 2008 at Norwood School, Norwood Green Road, Southall, was again marred with violence inside the meeting tent. It is a shame for our Sikh faith that our meetings continue to be dominated by thugs who want to silence Sangat's voice through physical violence. Guru Granth Sahib Ji's authority and respect continues to be ridiculed by the presidents of Sikh Gurdwara’s in the name of doing seva (voluntary service)? His brothers first attacked an innocent man making a verbal request with folded hands and then his sons and other relatives joined the frenzied attack on targeted people with SS Johal co-ordinating their violence. Mr Harjit Singh, Mr Sulakhan Singh, Councillor Manjit Singh, Mr Avtar Singh Buttar, Mr Gurpreet Singh Malhi, Mr Gurvir Singh and others were injured by Sohi’s mob forcing him to formally close the meeting. The Gian’s performed Guru Ji’s Sukhassan in haste but Guru Ji’s pages were again re-opened without the due Ardaas upon instructions from thugs and most members left the meeting in disgust of the proceedings. The president illegally reopened the meeting with below quorum attendance of only about 100 members in the tent (as per information from Police), It was an act of disgrace and utmost disrespect as all normal respectful worship rites of Guru’s Prakaash ceremony were skipped. The assembly comprised mostly of unqualified members and non-members who were inside the grounds before the meeting started. Others were the hired thugs to intimidate the Sangat. Dr Garcha's assurances of adequate security and guarantees of safety of attendees are again shown up as one-sided protection and totally inadequate for those members who oppose the committee. Dr Garcha and SS Johal were especially requested by the Lion group to assure safety of their members and instead of meeting that responsibility the leadership’s family once again became the attackers on the opposition. This vindicates, once again, Lion groups claim that their style of management is inappropriate for the Gurdwara and that this family is incapable of civilized conduct. Lion Group and other Sangat continued the protest outside in Norwood Park opposite the gates and made their complaints and allegation of violence that occurred in the meeting. Several arrests were made of people as they left via the main gate, others were stopped to verify their names and address by police to interview later, some other offenders absconded through the rear of the grounds as well as by hiding in president’s Land Cruiser with him at the wheel. His brothers and sons vanished into thin air. Many people were injured some requiring hospital treatment and most alleging assaults by Sohi's brothers, sons and other relatives. This is the 6th time the same family has been at the centre of violence in the Gurdwara and it is a very disturbing situation. The police had been warned of the potential for trouble and tried to manage the situation outside the grounds but could not do anything to prevent violence inside the meeting. Sohi’s relatives (brothers, brother-in-laws, sons, nephews were seen to be in control of the meeting) and seemingly planned the attack in conjunction with SS Johal. The ‘professional security’ failed to ensure the safety of the Sangat. Mr Sohi's elder son and nephew checked in members at the gate with SIA security badges displayed on their person. It remains to be seen what the ‘professional’ security reveal as to what they saw or were told to ignore? Was it professional security or just thugs hired to instil fear into innocent people? The committee enabled their assembled thugs to attack anyone who dared to oppose the leadership once again under the noses of the police who could not intervene. This creates an undesirable suspicion in the simple minded Sangat that police aids those people who are known to attack Sangat members. The question that requires answer is why relatives of the leadership are employed to ensure meeting order when professional security is employed for that purpose. These relatives then beat up people and security is unable to help or identify committee side thugs and why only opposition members are ejected from the meeting? Police response to the violence inside the meeting was delayed just enough time to stop them attending the scene in the tent to prevent or witness the assaults. The management had locked the entry gate to the premises, trapping everyone inside and it took a few minutes to get the gate opened. The police seized CCTV recording as an after thought once reminded by the opposition members, but it is likely that by this time the recording will have be doctored or missing like the last time in September 2004 when the same family attacked members outside Park Avenue Gurdwara no CCTV was available. The Gurdwara CCTV system was claimed to be faulty by Dr Garcha. It remains to be seen what will happen this time? Will events become bogged down under police limitations and outside influences to pervert the course of justice? Will innocent people be deprived of dignity even inside a religious temple? Will Sikhs be able to honour their citizen and religious duty or will they fail miserably like previous 5 times of violence at the Gurdwara with no evidence to secure a conviction? Dr Garcha, Mr HS Sohi and SS Johal are responsible to ensure the legality and order of the meeting so it is unlikely that the Sangat, Police or the public will be told the truth of what happened. It is about time the authorities took appropriate measures to ensure that such thugs are exposed for what they are and failure will encourage further breakdown of law and order in the Gurdwara and their local and national communities. There is a resurrection of the belief that attacks were facilitated by police complicity shown up by delay to reach incident tent and then refusal to apprehend offenders. Police justifies its position in legal complexities? It was apparent the police was more preoccupied to control the crowds outside than to attend to criminals inside the meeting. Police reluctance to apprehend offenders in the meeting reveals an ugly concept of no-go areas within Sikh religious establishment or is it part of a greater conspiracy? The saddest part is that Sikhs themselves may not be able to fulfil their citizen and religious duty for fear of retribution by the perpetrators of this and past violence at this temple. It is difficult to accept that the same Sohi family has managed to get away with 5 separate counts of violent attack on members of this Gurdwara. The greater question is what motivates this family to want to preserve their 13-year-old hold on a Gurdwara at all costs? Is it a simple matter of local domination by thugs or part of a design to deny Sikhs any civilised approach to their freedom of natural progress and independent thought? It’s a question that will haunt Sikhs for a long time to come. I the meantime the Police are requested to urgently seize the attendance log, details of security personnel and arrest the suspects for proper ID parade to ensure positive identification and then interview the many people who were in the tent especially Dr Garcha, SS Sohi (president), SS Johal (asst Gen Secretary) and other committee members. We also request a better police response and investigation than in the aftermath of Sept 2004 incident, so that Sikhs can truly take comfort in their claimed impartiality. When are committee’s of Gurdwaras going to realise that civilised society will eventually desert them and our temples will become victims of their own success under the pressure of greed of criminality and arrogance for domination of inflated egos, the very human weaknesses the Guru’s wish us to conquer. No one can help where the guardians become the enemy of the institutions they administer? Sikhs rise up and help yourselves, nobody else will. Lion Group