MAX

That's deep I personally think that it is beautifully simple, but hey, whatever floats yer boat :TH:

Many thanks for your kind words :TH: A name is just a name. A consequence of the human incapacity to refer to abstract things with success. It's a mode of reference. Little else. Mm...when you say that Guru Nanak "suggested that we abolish false religion", are you implying that Guru-ji said that one should embrace a true religion? If so, is there a passage from Gurbani that supports this (in literal terms, of course). But why should I? Am I less of a man if I do/don't? As I stated above, it is required for "communication". But beyond that particular simulacrum, it means little else. I think you're taking things a little extreme. When I said "na koi Sikkh", what I meant was that a true Sikkh doesn't think of himself as a 'Sikkh', but as a 'sikkh". I hope you understand my meaning. Indeed. Conduct of one's life is the highest order. Truth is above all. Truthful living is higher still. But whether or not you define that living by Bana or not is not what is important in my eyes. What is important to me is the virtue in peoples' actions. Heh...always glad to inspire

"Not even by mistake" refers to the people who choose to whollop in a nice dose of deity pooja after their Ardas as has been known in some Gurudwaras. This is where the "solemn oath", as you called it, is tastelessly and ignorantly broken. When one consciously understands what his/her actions do and do not mean when enterting the place of worship of an existing place, this is not a "mistake", but a sign of respect whilst never forgetting one's own beliefs. What is it to ring a bell? As long as I do not believe that this is a way to actually communicate with God (its very conceipt seems absurd to me), what evil am I comitting? I am ringing a bell. A bell. Ding-dong. I used to ask my teacher if I could ring the bell in the school yard at the end of recess. Big deal. P.S. - For a Brahmin not to bow with respect in front of the Granth (you know, the text that single-handedly saved their entire faith from being wiped from existence), is a huge lack of appreciation on their part. Just thought I'd say that.

Fly, baby. Fly :TH:

There is wisdom in your words. What you have said here is something that I would hope everyone - regardless of their existing socio-political/religious views - will read and medidate on with an open and free mind. Guru Gobind Singh talks of the entities of Indian history (legendary kings, warriors, princesses, etc) who fell in love with themselves and forgot God. As such, they spent their lives in a state of spiritual suffering. They were not 'gods', although they believed themselves to be so. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself said that he was not a 'god', nor was he to be worshipped as such. He was a tool of God, made a public display of humility when taking Amrit from the Five Beloved, and ensured that "Waheguru-ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru-ji ki fateh" ("both the Khalsa and the victory belong only to Waheguru") remained on the lips of the people he had left behind. When their stories are retold in Hindu mythology, the metaphorical morals of their journeys are sometimes lost, but the underlying truth - as with all religions - remains unchanged...even if you have to sift through some of the garbage that has accumulated over centuries in order to see it. ---- "In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality. Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is reason, its essence. Beyond reason is the Spirit in man, and beyond this is the Spirit of the Universe, the evolver of all. When the five senses and the mind are still, and reason itself rests in silence, then begins the Path supreme. And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more." ~ Extracts from the Upanishads ~ ---- Guru Gobind Singh Ji translated a number of Hindu scriptures, including the Upanishads. There is much wisdom to be learned in those pages. But - as with any kind of wisdom - it should all be taken with a pinch of salt and a questioning mind. But not everyone does preach tolerance. Many are happy believing that their 'right' is the only 'right' and believe that all others ought to convert or perish. A typical kafir mentality, entirely laughable, and wholly un-Sikkh.

A Sikkh is a human being. Nothing else. Dude, she's helping her Grandma. Where is the evil in that? Oh, believe me, one has the option not to follow rituals. You just go in and sit down, and no-one will care. But to make an effort to show respect is a noble thing to do. "Salvation through Sikkhi"? Try salvation through humanity :TH:

There is no "must". But, "in my eyes", it is respectful. Everytime I go to a Sikkh wedding, there are always white family friends who pay there respects. It's just an action; it might not mean anything to you, but it is an immense sign of respect and humility to your friends who will actually respect your tolerance in return. I know what my beliefs are. Ringing a bell in a mandir isn't going to change that. Any ritual from any religion is essentially meaningless, anyway (yes, yes, that includes Sikkhi...) but what counts is understanding what it is that you are doing and what it means. It is possible to engage in the rituals of other peoples' religions but not invested in them. Or...you can invest in them believing that your thoughts and prayers are going to the same God, no matter what name you call him by, how one designs their place of worship, or which words of prayer they utter. Whenever my family attends a Hindu function, my dad goes in wearing his turban. He doesn't even have to be intoxicant free or change his headwear When Guru Gobind Singh Ji recommended that those five (it was five, by the way, not two...my bad ) Sikkhs 'dress down' as it were, it was because the Hindus of that temple were rather intimidated by them. You think it was only Sikkhs who were affected by France's constitutional ammendments? Look beyond your own struggle. Wow. You're taking apples and pears, sticking them in one basket, and calling them the same thing. This type of misrepresentation is known as a strawman argument, and I am not impressed. You're implying that I think Sikkhs are "sword carrying posers that perform rituals of another faith and actively take part in their form of worship to show respect"? Have you listened to a word I've said? Apparently not. I don't go out of my way to ring bells, my friend. But hey, if you're so insecure about your beliefs that you think something as trivial as ringing a bell has now sealed your fate behind the gates of Hell, don't let me stop you. I just think you sound a little but too fascist. Not like a true Sikkh who understands what Sikkhi actually means.

That kind of point-scoring, 'opposing team' mentality has no place in Sikkhism. "Forget"? We're not goldfish, Pritam I went to a Church once and observed all their codes of conduct. I've been to Hindu mandirs whenever friends have functions there and do the same. All of my non-Sikkh friends (apart from the Muslim ones... ) comes to the Gurudwara on functions and bow their head in front of the Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh Ji opposed idol worship, yes. But paying your respects to someone else's religion doesn't suddenly mean you're worshipping multiple Gods. One should have enough confidence and clarity of their own beliefs to be able to do such things. It's like homophobes who make a conscious note not to associate with, respect, or 'act' like gays because they are themselves insecure about themselves on the inside.

The day the Thief of Rage is allowed to run rampant and free is the day the Khalsa of Master Gobind's image ceases to exist; it is replaced by the Army of Satan. May the sword be used for the righteous cause of humanity, and not the selfish cause of meaningless dogmatic attachments. Only then will the true spirit of the Khalsa Panth remain alive to save humanity from its own perils.

"Mind" it? I live for it I was born into a Sikkh family, to my loving parents, to my wonderful family. I am undecided as to whether or not I believe in karma, but when I look at my incredible fortune, even I wonder what I possibly could have done in a past life that allowed me to be born with such luck. My date of birth is even the same as Guru Nanak's favourite number: 13 (théra, or "yours") I had worn bana for...oh...twelve years? I eventually cut my hair for no particular reason (I think my dad cut it...I had this funny habbit of squinting with my eyes as a kid...it looked like I was really very awkward...and my dad thought it had something to do with my hair). I had been brought up on tales of heroism and courage and compassion and intelligence of the Ten Masters, and their lives became my life. Apparently, I was questioning why it was that God allowed people to suffer by the age of four, which my mother said really freaked her out. She said (in Punjabi, of course ) "I don't know from where this little Buddha has come into our house" That still makes me laugh even today, but I can't help the fact that I have always asked more questions than people have been comfortable with. My dad apparently had to stop me from speaking to his friends and his elders because I was embarassing them with the replies I was giving to their statements. But, when we were intimate, my parents were very tolerant and encouraged my questioning nature to grow. For that, I am eternally grateful. Whenever I look at pictures of Guru Nanak, I always feel a sense of brother-ship with him. I can't describe it in words, but I know that I never feel about this way about any Guru. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji (who actually reminds me of my masar-ji :D ), who is awe-inspiring in his own right. Now, as a cut-haired Sikkh who sometimes gets a little lazy when it comes to trimming my beard, I look like a typical Muslim. No-one looks me in the eye or treats me normally. Every white person looks down their nose at me. I commute by train twice a week with three big, black bags (back-pack, a sports bag and a briefcase) and pretty much every pair of eyes on the train is staring at me for the full two hours of my journey. In fact, just today (and I just posted this on another board), I was walking down the street and a white dude shouts out "there aren't any Mosques here!". "Well, that's handy since I'm not Muslim", I yelled back. "You look like a Muslim". "If you mean I look like a human being", I said, "then I appreciate your observations, sir". A few months back, I was crossing the road and a Muslim guy was crossing from the other side. As we passed, he goes "asalaam alikum my Muslim brother". I replied, "I'm not Muslim. But I am your brother". I've even been physcially attacked (mental note: full beer cans hurt...and your clothes smell when it is open ), verbally abused, and had my family threatened to be killed (including my then-8-year old brother and 12-year old sister) by whites. You would have thought that this would encourage me to shave every day...and yet I refuse to do so. My beard is bigger than it's been for a while, and I refuse to trim it. As long as I can reveal the truth of peoples' ignorance and prejudice using this form of those who decide to speak to me, I am going to use this form to do it. Bana isn't something I "fear". It's something towards which I am entirely indifferent. It is one's actions, and not one's choice of robes, prayers or lack of haircut that defines who a man or woman is. So I guess you could say that my "actions/order [are] motivated by true peace,repect, and love in the form of activism" "Na koi Hindu, na koi Musalman...na koi Sikkh." ~ Guru Nanak Dev Ji REMIX :D Ek Onkar. All is One. One is All. We are all One with God, whether we realise it or not.

When I go to functions in the Mandir of my Hindu friends, ringing the bell does not suddenly turn me into a Hindu. But I am showing my respect towards their faith. Chill. Marching into a temple sacred to a group of people with your arrogance in your hands is the most un-Khalsa-like thing you can do. France has the right to be what they want to be. Yeah. But the question is "what are you gonna do about it?". Are you gonna sit there, moaning? Are you gonna go out and act like a hooligan whilst convcing yourself that you're being a 'good Sikkh'? Or are you going to start an initiative to educate Westerners about the nature of Sikkhism? "Think" what you want. The truth doesn't change that you are highly misinformed about both myself and the true nature of what you perceive to be 'your religion'. With all due respect, my friend, I feel you need to broaden your horizons. Read more, learn more, live life. Realise that reailty is not the world that has been made for you since the year dot.

Heh...human beings make me laugh, man They can't see what's right in front of them...and I'm not talking about Muslims converting non-Muslims, either.

If you get front row seats to a show, why would you not sit there?

Wow, I coulda' sworn that was an example of ego...

I'm humbled you agree I don't believe that there is anything necessarily "abstract" about virtue. "I wish to be virtuous, and Lo! Virtue is at hand!" ~ Confucius The "form" it takes is through my actions. The "community" it develops will be one that recognises no leader, and will arise through the common humanistic appeal that these ideas have. I think that the world ought to exist as a democratic, secular, tolerant state. The only thing that is not tolerated is intolerance towards any other group of human beings. I think that the world as it exists today is far better in many respects than the world of the 17th century. No, things aren't perfect, but all the institutions are in place to create something wonderous. Hehe...are you implying that one wears Bana or remains nude? I believe in a life of moderation. Normal clothes, a haircut every six weeks, trimming my stubble on a Sunday afternoon, living a life that is satisfying on every level, from physical to spiritual... If one feels complete by wearing Bana, then they are entitled to wear bana. If one feels at peace with how they are, then should stay as they are. Thanks for your opinion, my friend :TH:

Indeed. It's pretty easy not to do the wrong thing...you just don't do it. You fancy that guy? Get over it. Your mate's been bitching about you? You don't have time for stupid games. The dude tells you he loves you and hasn't felt this way about anyone before? He probably likes your panties more than he likes you. It might sound depressing, but it's the truth. But once you realise how normal and mundane all this stuff is, you realise that your true focus in life becomes clearer. Your love for your family becomes stronger. Your respect for yourself becomes greater. Sure, not everyone has the most understanding parents. But as long as you do your best to be moral and right in what you do, I'm sure that parents will understand. After all, they are supposed to be there to support you. And make sure you remind them of that when you sit down to talk to them. You have a mind, body and a sense of morality. For your own sake, use 'em for the benefit of you and your family. It might not be gratifying in the same way as fulfilling your more superficial concerns (which usually end in tears or some other form of suffering anyway...trust me, I've seen it way too many times in my female friends), but being virtuous and acting with a sense of nobility and self respect and love for those who actually love you back no matter what (i.e. your family) has a whole different kick and a type of empowerment that utterly crushes the other type. Give it a go. You might actually like it.

Hate crimes happen to Muslim women wearing hijabs, too. Let's not forget that Sikkhs are not being attacked because of the principles of Sikkhism. They are being attacked because ignorant grunts do not even know what a Sikkh is and think that a dastaar-wearing Sikkh is a Muslim who sympathises with Islamic terrorists. And "genocide"? Where? 1984? This is 2006. Much has changed since 1984. Like...a Sikkh P.M. for example. Good thind I didn't say that "the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed" then, isn't it? :TH: "Not negotiable"? Okay, that's fine. But as long as you realise that you are limiting yourself as long as a civil compromise does not enter the scene. And you're gonna have to just live with that. The Knight's Templar, the Crusades, the Imperial Samurai of Japan...creating a 'divine army' based on a religion isn't something new, and every time it is made it tends to make an impact on history. Interestingly, each one of these divin armies believes that they and no-one else will be rewarded. The ol' reward scheme again. Like a dog doing tricks for that scrumptious-looking chocoloate bone. Bite-size, of course. Not the full-size one. That'd be wierd. Personally, I don't take kindly to spiritual blackmail. But if you wish to believe a certain set of ideas, you are more than entitled to and I have nothing against you for doing so. Furthermore, the Gurus (particularly Nanak) seemed more fascinated with God than necessarily being the same as him. The second Guru - daunted by his task of Guru-ship - even went into hiding for a good while before coming back. The fifth Guru confessed that he could not fully understand Guru Nanak's vision. And then, Guru Gobind Singh Ji - in order to topple the Mughal fascist dictatorship - used the devotion of the existing following to create an army of which he was the divine general. Like I said, this is nothing new. But deciding how you choose to take this information and interpret it is rather important. For both you and those around you.

It's like competing companies trying to expand and become more powerful. The Muslims reckon they'er being good Muslims (as well as that universal sense of gratification one gets when convincing someone else that their views are correct), and the Sikkhs respond with the idea that if they were as totalitarian and dominating over women as Muslims, that they wouldn't have this 'problem'. Which will actually only acheive in driving gals away. This is a 'Catch 22' situation. God recognises no distinction between human beings on the grounds of religion. We all know that. And yet it hurts when someone 'converts' to Islam. 'Conversion' doesn't really exist, per se. Someone's biological make-up as a human being doesn't suddenly change (although the incestuous nature of many Muslim relationships will probably change that...), but what does happen is that a religion like Islam - founded on the tennets of killing or enslaving kafirs (infedels, non-believers...free-thinkers...) - is allowed to gain such momentum. It's a crime against humanity more than anything else. Of course, girls who are actually thick enough to fall for it probably deserve it to some extent (seriously lady's...half the stuff guys say to you are just pre-used 'lines' they've adapted from some obscure movie or something). I think that Asian girls need to rethink their concept of what it means to be 'free' and 'independent'. It doesn't mean that just because they aren't necessarily 'religious' (whatever that may mean...) that they suddenly have only one other lifestyle to adhere to (namely, the most vulgar interpretation of Western life...I mean, at least have some class when you do it, eh?). I don't keep my hair or anything like that. But I don't drink, smoke, do weed or do drugs...even though most of my friends do. Including the ones who wear a dastaar. Why do I do this? Because I choose to lead a strong and virtuous life. Girls can do this with great ease. I know plenty who do. "Respect yourself and others will respect you." ~ Confucius ~

Oh...my...God

Aw, what the heck...yeah, sexual discrimination has about as much place in Sikkhi as a fish does flying in the sky. Makes you wonder: if such simple corruptions as sexual discrimination, assault, etc, what else have we allowed to creep in over the last three hundred years? Thinky, thinky... If the sangat does not question, propose and reform, outside forces will do it for them. :mellow:

I pray that such a day will never come. I pray that human beings will stop killing other human beings. I pray that 'Khalistanis' realise that Khalistan needs to be the very world in which we inhabit - a land of democracy, secularism and tolerance - and must be made through virtuous deeds, not through an over-zealous desire to pick up a sword when the Tenth Master clearly stated that it is the very last resort when "all other means have been extinguished". In today's world, we have infinitely more "means" than Guru Gobind Singh Ji, his contemporaries and successors ever had.

If one understands the fact that the Gurus were speaking to people who were familiar with only Islamic and Hindu practices, it makes sense that they would base the metaphors and images of their teachings on ideas that already existed in the local mindset of the people to whom they were trying to communicate with. There are mentions of God as Allah in Gurbani as well in an attempt to display the Nanakian philosophy that God has no name that us humans could give Him, and names are merely for our own convenience. What matters is the message behind it. Sikkhism isn't about marginalisation (although it's easy to believe seeing the way some Sikkhs seem to behave... ) but about trying to express the truth. The truth remains the truth no matter which way one chooses to express it. Gurbani expresses it in a plethora of ways using a number of metaphors and images that contribute to the immense grandeur of its poetry. Great stuff.

lol, you ever see some of those old import cars? they drive ont eh right side (the driver)... O_o i think wearing those mini kirpans and a blunt kirpan is not very god, kind of loses the purpose of protection and helping others... i cant see people affectivly defending off a thug with a 2 inch kirpan on a necklace "The first ideal of swordsmanship is achieved when the sword is present in the hand. When this is achieved, even a blade of grass can be a weapon. The second ideal of swordsmanship is achieved when the sword is absent from the hand, and present in the heart. When this is achieved, the swordsman can strike down foes from a distance, even with bare hands. The third ideal of swordsmanship is achieved when the sword is absent from both the hand and the heart. When this is achieved, the swordsman is at peace, and works to bring peace to all."

Yet another great passage. Just to draw your attention to that final couplet; it is effectively saying that the Lord's Will is absolute. Even those who do 'evil' are only carrying out the Greater Will. No-one can ever defy it. Nanak is frustrated with such maya-obsessed people...but ultimately finds peace in the fact that the Lord's Will is absolute.

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless? Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.