proactive

There was a lively debate on TalkSport last night about this guy and whether he should be allowed into the UK. Overall most non-Muslims phoning in called him a clown and a dangerous clown at that and most Muslims supported him as a 'moderate'! The Tory-Liberal coalition looks like it's just another dhimmi government like the previous Labour party.

It was shown on Central News.

I think you need to use your common sense here. Of course fake Amritdharis Raj cannot be considered Khalsa raj. Although Badal has been claiming that his rule is the same as the rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule but few Sikhs believe this.

hmm yaa thats truee thx WJKK WJKF! That's a very PC take on Raj Karega Khalsa which first started after 1947 when Hindus questioned why Sikhs were continuing to recite this verse when India was 'free' and this verse could be seen as subversive. If we take your logic and apply it to other words such as Sikh - it means student so any student around the world of whatever subject should automatically be considered a Sikh. All of them should also be allowed to vote in SGPC elections! Guru means teacher so similarly all the teachers and lecturers around the world should be considered our Gurus! I suppose according to your PC version, the USA is under Khalsa Raj because of Obama being in charge!! Wouldn't a pure Muslim be someone who discriminates against non-Musims (yes, it's in the Quran), wouldn't a pure Hindu practise the caste system and worship idols? Osama Bin Laden is according to the Quran and Hadiths a pure Muslim. So would be consider his politic ideas, Khalsa Raj? Khalsa means and has always meant Amritdhari Sikhs either individually or as a collective. Raj Karega Khalsa is a declaration of intentions to bring about a wholesale transformation of the current political systems around the world. Please do not debase it by using a flawed PC logic.

Seems like for Dusanjh some 'terrorists' are better than others. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030830/ldh.htm

If a Gurdwara can't provide Langar to all that come regardless of whether they are students from India or illegals or British citizens given the amount of rashan they get from the Sangat then the Sangat should be looking to kick the committee out. I think it's all rumours btw.

Because the attempt is to carefully introduce the concept that Guruji did sewa of the devi by turning the devi from a Hindu goddess into some sort of 'feminine' force of Waheguru. Devis don't find much positive mention in Guru Granth Sahib but then suddenly the devi because the be all and end all of Sikhi in 1699. Be careful of propaganda sites like the one referenced in the first post of this thread. These types of sites accept everything written in Sikh literature as true rather than analyse it with reference to Gurbani.

Oh dear I seem to have rattled you cage somewhat. I suppose someone like you sitting in the west would find it easy giving sanctimonious advice to these Sikhs to stay, well it's their funeral and not yours. It's easy to be an armchair warrior and ask these Sikhs to stay put in their area while the situation deterioates. These Sikhs are traders and small businessmen who do not have the 'warrior spirit' which some Sikhs such as yourself seem to possess in West London. With the situation worsening by the day and the Taliban having got a taste for kidnappsing these Sikhs, its only a matter of time until more of these incidents take place. What will a soorma like you then advise? I am surprised that you believe everything that the Pakistani media says about these Sikhs. The exact opposite was stated by a cousin of the Shaheed Singh to the Indian media. He stated that Sikhs of that area want to leave and come to India. Apparently in Amritsar at present there a quite a few Sikhs from that area who are refugees from Pakistan. You obviously have little idea of who the Taliban is in these areas. They are not all Afghanis, most are locals hence the name Pakistani Taliban. These people are from the same areas as the Sikhs that they are kidnapping and the so-called paktunwali code conveniently means zilch to them when there's easy money to be made. As for the background of these Sikhs, if you believe they are Pathans then you are more ignorant than I thought. They are descendents of Sikhs who left the Potohar area during the invasions of Ahmed Shah Abdali and they are as Punjabi as you and me. The reason for suggesting that these Sikhs migrate to safe areas such as Nankana Sahib or Rori Sahib is that Gurdwaras played a great role when the Sikhs of swat had to leave that area. Had it not been for Gurdwara Panja Sahib these Sikh refugees would have been in a much worse condition in Government refugee camps as the rest of the population were. Gurdwaras have the land and they need a local community to maintain the Gurdwara as well as keep up the maryada. I don't know what your problem, maybe in your macho world Sikhs don't leave an area and fight to the last man, well as long as the last isn't you then I suppose you're fine with that!

Your statements are ignorant at best and offensive at worst. So you think that Sikhs there are involved in the trade in drugs and hence the murder of these Sikhs. Typical dhimmi thinking. Blame the victim and exonerate the offenders. Your other statement of these Sikhs would not go to Punjab is patently false as anyone whose life is in danger and is in an impossible situation would pick up his bags and move to a safer area. Afghani Sikhs have done this and many live in the UK and Germany as well as in Delhi. The worst these Sikhs can do is remain sitting ducks relying on government assurances of security when the government cannot even protect their own workers.

I think you must have misread the posts. The criticism was of the Taliban and not of Pakistan or Pakistanis in general. The fact is that when the Taliban took over these areas they were welcomed by the local people because they wanted Sharia law. Guess what, Sharia law also means subjecting non-Muslims to jizya and a host of other discriminatory practices such as wearing distinctive signs to denote that they are not Muslims. The Pakistan government also aided and abetted the Taliban and signed an agreement subjecting the non-Muslims of Swat to living under Sharia law. That backfired and they had to send the army in. It is not the fault of the Sikhs that the Taliban is killing Muslim civilians or attacking government troops and functionaries. The Sikhs did not aid the Taliban, they did not ask for Sharia law and yet they have suffered due to the fanaticism of the Taliban. The Sikh channel did an excellent job in having the discussion last might. I was particularly impressed that they were able to get the sister of one of the Sikhs still being held by the Taliban on the show as well as have the Pakistan Gurdwaras committee chairman Sham Singh on the telephone. The panel also made very good contributions. Ravinder Singh of Khalsa Aid also phoned in. The facts that came out were that the situation can only get worst and Avtar Singh Sanghera's proposal was the best for the Sikhs of that area. The Gurdwaras in West Punjab have a lot of land attached to them and the Sikhs of NWFP should be thinking about their future. Some are still in a delapidated condition. What is needed around these Gurdwaras is a Sikh community that can ensure that the Gurdwaras are maintained and maryada restored. It is likely that the Taliban in Pakistan is not going to be defeated anytime soon and it only takes a few fanatics to kidnap Sikhs and cause death and destruction to the lives of the rest of the Sikhs in that area. These Sikhs could easily move to Nankana Sahib or Rori Sahib Gurdwaras. The worst thing they can do is stay in either their tribal areas or even in NWFP as they are now sitting ducks. According to the discussion the Sikhs had earlier pooled their resources and paid the ransom for another Sikh. This has led the Taliban to think of Sikhs as a way to get easy money.

The posting was not meant as a criticism but just to put forward an alternative view. Khalsa Aid has been around for over a decade and just in the last year or so it has been collecting for projects in Punjab especially with combatting drugs in Punjab as well as countering the Christian missionaries. If Khalsa Aid now diverts its attention to Haiti no matter how much exposure the Sikh religion will receive, it will still mean less focus on Punjab. The losers will be our fellow Sikhs in Punjab. Our community has limited resources and as the Sikh Channel project showed we are worst at donating to Sikh project than to non-Sikh projects. A Guradwara in Canada collected $100,000 in a single day for Haiti but if an appeal was made for Punjab it is doubtful that even a 1% of that would be collected. We Sikhs need to do some introspection into why this is. I think Khalsa Aid needs to devote its full attention to Punjab, as Punjab has suffered so much in the last few decades and no one has been helping the people of Punjab and those that have done so do so with ulterior motives.

No offence guys but you should dedicate 100% of your efforts in Punjab. It was heartening that you had started the projects in Punjab but disasters like Haiti will happen every few years and the world has already donated millions of pounds and the US military with all its resources has been quick off the mark to help out with aid distribution. Khalsa Aid will just be replicating the work of other agencies and organisations. Don't forget the people of Punjab just because another disaster has occurred. The People of Punjab need your undivided attention. Just my personal opinion... I await the brickbats!

That Mandeep Bajwa is a congress party member. I have had run ins with him when I used be on the Sikh History discussion forum. He is a member of the Indian establishment, a 'sikh' who would willing sacrifice his people for the so-called unity of his artificial country. Rather that criticise Sonia Deol, even though criticism of her is legitimate, it should be the so-called location manager Bajwa whose role should be addressed by the BBC. People like Mark Tully have been used by the BBC because they believe that he is an expert on India. His biased reporting since the 80s is the reason that Sikhs have not been able to present their side of the story.

The BBC lost the plot years ago. The person who wrote that episode should hang his head in shame not because the episode does not have any link with reality but they have -; 1. Hindu extremist called Harish Dhillon! 2. An Indian Muslim played by a gora, who talks like he's just come of the set of Eastenders. Come to think of it, I think that guy has been in Eastenders. 3. That Harish guy took his 'tiffin box' to the gym! 4. The terror cell which is led by Harish who seems to have been UK born and yet he is able to converse in Sanskrit. What was the reason for them conversing in Sanskrit when even a Punjabi speaker could pick up a few of the words. 5. The Hindu terrorists couldn't handle one MI5 officer and they were pretty incompetent in carrying out a terror attack on some Muslim girls college, maybe that was the only believable part of the whole episode!

Singh the site is not blocked. You can still access it. What in Sikhi will come like other religions? Maybe someone here can clear your doubts for you. im in dubai, muslim country, so maybe if its abt islam see, if we think of it, wen islam was newly formed, try to compare it, maybe it was just like sikhi in 1700-1800s? Also, at the moment, I see many sikhs who cut their hair and eat meat(i being one of them) so its technically us not following our religion properly? Bhul Chuk Maaf, WJKK WJKF Do a little research my friend and then you will not make such false comparisons.

West London Singh You are wrong in claiming that 75% of Punjabi Jats are Muslims. The last time that the number of Jats were counted was in 1931 and the count was of of the whole of Punjab (ie West Punjab, East Punjab and Haryana). The total number of Jats were 6,070,032. Sikhs were 2,133,151 or 35%, Muslims were 2,940,819 or 48% and Hindu Jats 992,309 or 17%. As for the claim that Muslims Jats would join with Sikh Jats, that's a new one on me and I have read most of the Census and Gazetteer literature on Punjab. The caste gots that you claimed are as common if not more common in Pakistan than in Indian Punjab is another false claim. The gots of Jats were counted in the 1901 census and the percentage of Sikhs and Muslims in the following gots were-; Dhillon Sikhs 82% Muslims 18% Dosanjh Sikhs 66% Muslims 34% Sandhu Sikhs 82% Muslims 18% Gill Sikhs 81% Muslims 17% I think we should be careful of placing reliance on what your cousin saw in Pakistan. You are right in one respect, the Jats that the Sikhs fought with are most likely to be Hindu Jaats.

It looks like Badal and the SGPC is getting their just desserts after backing off from the Anandpur Sahib resolution and the demand for an All India Gurdwaras committee. A committee for Haryana Gurdwaras is not a bad thing especially if it give the Sikhs of Haryana more local control over the finances of their Gurdwaras. Apparently there are only about 10 Gurdwaras ion Haryana under the control of SGPC which have an income of 10 crore ( £1.2 million). The Haryana Sikhs just want this amount to be spent in their state. The Gurdwaras in Haryana are only under the SGPC control because Haryana was a part of Punjab to which the act that created the SGPC was limited to. The Sikhs of Delhi have their own Gurdwaras committee as have those of other states like J&K, Chattisgarh etc.

Buddasingh Your comparision is not correct. For Sikhs outside Punjab, they had close family in Punjab who would have been able to provide them with the ground reality that existed there as well as personal visits by the Sikhs outside. This is not the case with our two friends in Canada and Australia. I doubt they have even read an online UK newspaper to acquaint themselves of the situation. Their naive assumptions about the situation shows just how much knowledge they have of it. Your statement about Muslim radicalisation is a standard Muslim excuse trying to justify why Muslims amongst all the ethnic minorities in the UK are the ones who have taken part in terrorist acts and murdered their fellow citizens. If it wasn't for the coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan, the excuse for Muslim radicalisation would have been the West's support for Israel. Then again if Israel didn't exist it would have been the West's support for 'oppressive' Muslim governments in the middle east. If the West stops its support the Muslims would shift their excuse to something else all the way to the Crusades if need be! The reason for Muslim radicalisation might in some small measure be due to the coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan but the main reason is the increase in the Muslim population through immigration. As soon as the Muslim population in a particular country reaches a critical mass then the problems really start. Here is a video of the problems caused by Muslims in Sweden. Now tell me if Swedes are also going around the Muslim world killing, raping and pillaging!

Our friend had the benefits of a left wing education from a canadain university probably taught by a left wing tutor who drilled all this colonialism and white man's racism into him. He probably thinks the 7th century Arabs only left Arabia on an alturistic mission to free the common people from Byzantine and Persian oppression..lol! Singhavelli, seriously you should read the works of Nick Cohen and Christopher Hitchens about how the left has lost its way since 9/11 and how it has become an enabler for Islamic terrorism. Here's a video of cohen talking about his book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agQO69H7ckc

The way to look at this situation is to look back to the last few decades and see what occurred to make the situation as it is now. From the 70s to early 90s the race relations between communities was improving. In the early 90s it was Islamic extremism that sabotaged this progress. Look at any place in Britain and the less Muslims there are the better the place is and the more Muslims there are then the worst the place is. Look at the northern Muslim slums like Bradford and Dewsbury and Oldham and these places are gradually becoming virtual no go areas. Look at how Southall and other areas of west London have gone down since Muslims started to live there. How is it that if Sikhs are the majority and the Muslims a small minority there are no problems but if the situation is reversed then there are problems? The blame for the race relations situation isn't down to the whites who for the most part have been very tolerant but with the mischief created by Muslims it is no wonder that this is now changing. The people who find in the whites no redeeming qualities and are ever ready to criticise them by bringing up the BNP or western colonialism are the worst racists. Whites have moved on and they are not all racists and pining for the return of their empire. It's about time the armchair activists moved on as well instead of constantly harping on about colonialism.

Funny how one guy sitting in Canada makes statements about the UK without knowing anything about the situation and another guy sitting in Australia supports these ignorant statements!

United Sikhs should be concentrating their efforts and expending their resources on only the sikh refugees. The millions of Muslims who fled are the same ones who asked for sharia law and celebrated the Taliban as heroes. They brought the situation on themselves, the Sikhs are just the innocent victims in all this.

The white man wants to keep it a free country where anyone can live in peace. It is the Muslim who has sabotaged 40 years of good community relations and created a situation where people have to protest in order to stop the country from becoming another Islamic shythole.

The guy who set up the group was interviewed a few weeks ago on talksport and even though the presenter tried to paint him to be a racist he came across as articulate. He seemed to be one of those who are able to get to the root of the problem. He said that ALL Muslims have an agenda to convert the UK into a Muslim state and then non-Muslims will be discriminated against. The useful <banned word filter activated> presenter tried to present this guy as a racist and tried to make out that not ALL Muslims are against the UK and it's only a small minority of extremists who HIGHJACK Islam for their own ends. Apart from some Muslims who called the radio station to do siapa alleging 'islamophobia', most of the goray callers supported the guys views. Looks like more and more people are waking up and smelling the coffee!

These Sikhs need to look to their future. Either political asylum in the west or settlement in areas like Nankana Sahib which would bolster the local Sikh population and hence provde a sense of security. Being located in small groups in the tribal areas means that they have no local power and can be eliminated at any time without any news geting out. The Pakistani army might be fighting the Taliban now but last a few months ago the government had given the Taliban full control of Swat. The Taliban can come back anytime so the Sikhs need to look the longer term for their future.