doctor_mani

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! So when did kerry call sikh terrorists??? U can critisize or praise Bush all u want on foreign policy....but atleast he wont allow gay marriages.. Chill guys....whoever is the president....our Guru is the same...our beliefes are the same...so why worry?? Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

ADMIN NOTE: In accordance with Sikhsangat.com policy, controversial and divisive issures will not be entertained on this forum. The topic of this thread is about posters of mahaan Gursikhs, Shaheeds and Sants. If anybody has any info on where to get posters or who might have posters please post a message, otherwise don't post. -8

Thanx Veera :wub:

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Its nearly 20 years since 1984 Delhi riots. I would sure like to do something in rememberance. Does anyone know whats happening in UK in memory of this??? Please let me know Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! So who do we all want to win? Lets compare how accurate our poll compares to the reall thing on Tuesday...get voting. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Vote for BUSH!!! He's a good putt. He wont allow gay marriages unlike Kerry who will. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Just wondering if anyone here has been called 'Bin-Laden' or 'terrorist' because of their identity? If so, who called you it and how did you respond? My 6th form teacher once said to me, "You look like a terrorist". All the class laughed at this comment. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Please read this link.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asi...sia/3969295.stm Doubt it will happen though... Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Is it just me who thinks this, or do you guys agree this web site is anti-sikh? www.khalistan.biz Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

EFFECTS OF GRAVITY ON THE CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM Introduction The cardiovascular system is responsible for maintaining an adequate flow of blood to all cells in the body. Carried in the blood are nutrients essential for cell survival and function, such as oxygen and glucose, cell waste products such as carbon dioxide and urea are also transported in the blood from cells to sites where they may be excreted from the body. The cardiovascular system is regulated by various receptive mechanisms that include baroreceptors, which are responsible for detecting changes in blood pressure, and chemoreceptors, which detect changes in the chemical composition of the blood. There are autonomic and humoral mechanisms in place that as a result of stimulation of these receptors cause changes in heart rate, cardiac output, stroke volume, blood pressure and composition of the blood. In response to gravitational (orthostatic) stress, the cardiovascular system is required to alter its performance. On earth because of the downward pull of gravity the body easily supplies blood to the lower limbs. However, the body is naturally challenged in supplying blood to areas that lie superiorly to the heart, and so has developed protective reflexes that act primarily through the actions of the autonomic nervous system to ensure sufficient blood flow reaches the head. The problem of orthostatic intolerance has been highlighted in certain groups such as endurance athletes1, astronauts returning from space flights2, and in diabetic patients suffering from autonomic neuropathies3, this has led to a significant increase in the number of groups researching the mechanisms responsible for the se occurences and how they can be utilised to develop preventative treatments. It is therefore essential that the protective mechanisms that exist to combat orthostatic stress are fully understood. When discussing the effects of gravity on the cardiovascular system the baroreceptors involvement in maintainence of cardiovascular function has been shown to be the main receptive mechanism. There are two main groups of baroreceptors whose actions have been shown to be involved in protecting the body against orthostatic stress, these are the carotid and aortic arch. Their responses are mediated through the autonomic nervous system, which primarily through the sympathetic division have been shown to be the main immediate mechanism that aids humans in avoiding postural hypotension. 40 50 60 70 80 Venous pressure 0 - 90 Mean Arterial pressure (mmHg) (mmHg) 10 - 100 20 - 110 30 - 120 40 - 130 50 - 140 60 - 150 70 - 160 80 - 170 Figure 15. Demonstrates the hydrostatic pressure effects in man in an upright position. The arterial and venous pressures are both increased by some 85mmHg at the ankle whilst pressure in the vessels found superiorly to the heart decrease. Immediate Cardiovascular responses to posture changes and blood volume distribution The hydrostatic indifference point (HIP), a term first used by Wagner in 1886, represents the natural reference point of hydrostatic pressure shifts in the cardiovascular system. Upon assuming an upright position, intravascular pressures in inferior regions of the body rise, in superior regions pressure would fall and it is assumed there is a region between the superior and inferior regions where assuming an upright position would not alter intravascular pressures (HIP). The HIP in man has been located at about 5 to 8 cm below the diaphragm4, if the HIP were at the same level as the heart, posture changes would have little effect on cardiac output. In changing from a supine to an upright position, intravascular pressures decrease above the HIP and rise in the lower regions of the body (figure 1). As a result the most extensive pressure increase must takes place in the arteries as they do not contain valves, however the veins also show a marked increase in intravascular pressure. The increase in venous pressure and their relatively low elastic recoil causes the veins to distend, it is in these regions that blood pools. The venous volume of the legs increases by about 500ml4. Most of the translocated volume is contained in the deep intra and intermuscular leg veins and it is here that the intravascular pressure greatly increases. Approximately 200ml-300ml is transferred to the veins in the buttock and pelvic area6. It is thought that the translocated volume is derived principally from the intrathoracic compartment of the low pressure system7. It is the intrathoracic vessels that function as a blood reservoir, and their storage capacity is of great importance when the upright position is assumed, as there is a sudden drop in venous return. Approximately 70% of the total blood volume is now contained in the systemic veins; the heart and lungs account for about 15%, the systemic arteries for 10%, and the capillaries for 5%8. The increased venous pressure causes capillary pressure to rise, there is then a resultant loss of plasma fluid from the circulation. It has been shown that plasma volume falls by 13% over the first 14 minutes9 (figure 2). The lymphatic system is responsible for ‘recycling’ the excess plasma fluid and returning it to the systemic circulation. Like ve nous return, the return of lymphatic fluid to the circulation is dependant upon limb muscular activity. When a person is upright and active, the decreased circulating blood volume (CBV) should not affect the venous return of blood to the heart as the excess lymph would be recycled as quickly as it is produced. However, in prolonged standing with minimal leg movement, the pooling of both blood and lymph can impair venous return to the extent that cardiac output is reduced by about 25%. It has been shown that individuals with a large CBV are able to withstand orthostatic stress better than those with a lower CBV3. The bodies main concern when in the upright position is maintaining blood pressure, as blood pressure determines especially in the arterial system, blood flow to organs, which determines the supply of essential nutrients and removal of waste products. On the assumption of an upright position the baroreceptors induce changes in peripheral resistance and cardiac function, which results in the maintenance of mean arterial pressure11. When in a supine position, the gravitational effects on the circulation are minimal, blood pressure lies well within homeostatic parameters, venous return and cardiac output are more than adequate to meet the demands of the body. Heart rate is kept low as a reflex bradycardia is induced by vagal impulses acting at the SA node. Upon assumption of an upright position, blood shifts to the lower regions of the body, away from the head and neck regions. This shift is detected by arterial baroreceptors as a fall in blood pressure, a compensatory increase in heart rate (figure 3) is initiated through increased sympathetic nerve activity acting at the SA node. The increase in heart rate acts to increase both cardiac output and blood pressure, however, due to blood pooling in the venous system there is a marked decrease in venous return. Harms et al, 1999 demonstrated a reduction in the end diastolic filling of the left ventricle causing a reduction in stroke volume and up to 20% fall in cardiac output under orthostatic conditions12. However, responses of heart rate have been shown to be of little importance in the maintenance of blood pressure during orthostatic stress13. It is now thought that the main mechanism responsible for maintenance of blood pressure when cardiac output is decreased is an increase in vascular resistance. An increased vascular resistance would act to decrease blood pooling and increase venous return. However, the exact mechanisms responsible for these changes remain unclear. Baroreceptors- regulatory mechanisms Afferent fibres from the baroreceptors travel in the aortic and carotid sinus nerves, which join the vagus and glossopharyngeal nerves, respectively, and connect with the cardiovascular centres in the medulla. The sensory endings of the baroreceptors are transducers of mechanical deformations, and it is the pressure induced deformation of the vessel wall and thus of the endings rather than the pressure itself that determines the discharge frequency at the baroreceptors. There is a small tonic discharge from baroreceptor afferents under normal blood pressure conditions. As blood pressure increases the frequency of discharge from the baroreceptors increases. However, as seen under conditions of orthostatic stress, as the blood pressure decreases (as interpreted by baroreceptors), the frequency of baroreceptor discharge decreases. The interaction between the carotid and aortic baroreceptors and the significance of the role each plays in combating orthostasis is unknown. It has been suggested that the carotid baroreceptors are more important in dictating the reflex adjustments. The carotid baroreceptors are located superiorly to the heart and so on assumption of an upright position the blood pressure in those areas would drop significantly. If you compare that with the location of the aortic baroreceptors, just above heart level, these receptors will recognise an increase in mean pr essure. The carotid baroreceptors are more effectively positioned to ‘report’ blood pressure changes when in the upright position. It has also been shown that surgical denervation of the carotid baroreceptors leads to impaired orthostatic blood pressure control14. Suggestions have been made that the mechanisms responsible for counteracting orthostatic stress are a result of a change in baroreceptor sensitivity. Victor and Mark15, suggest that there is an increase in baroreceptor sensitivity under conditions of orthostatic stress, however, Bevegard et al16, have suggested that there is no change or even a decrease in baroreceptor sensitivity under these conditions. To contradict things further Vukasovic et al17 suggest that orthostatic conditions have no effect on baroreceptor control of vascular resistance. Adaptations in peripheral vasculature From the fall in cardiac output in the face of a constant mean arterial pressure on assumption of the upright position, an increase in the total peripheral resistance of approximately 30-40% is seen4. This can be a quite confusing concept at it was earlier said that under the increased venous pressure inferior veins can distend, but yet they are still able to provide resistance which acts to increase blood pressure. It is assumed therefore that the resistance is provided through neurogenic and myogenic mechanisms. Neurogenic control of peripheral vascular tone is mediated through the cardiovascular control centres, vasomotor and cardiac, which are located in the medulla oblongata and lower pons. The vasomotor centre supplies nervous innervation to the peripheral vasculature and the cardiac centre to the heart. Within the vasomotor centre there are thought to be two distinct regions, the vasoconstrictor area and the vasodilatory area. The vasoconstrictor area contains a high concentration of neurons that synapse with adrenergic neurons of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) which subsequently secrete nor-adrenaline. Nor-adrenaline acts at the á recepto rs located in the mucularis layer of the peripheral vessels, or those found in precappilary sphincters. Studies by Donald and Shepard, 1980, demonstrated that the SNS has a greater importance than the Parasympathetic Nervous System (PNS) in regulating vascular tone18. The importance of the degree on SNS stimulation on the venous circulation is, however, to increase or reduce venous capacitance. A small change in venous capacitance can produce large alterations in venous return, as upto 80% of the total blood volume can be stored in the veins. Myogenic adaptations to long term orthostatic stress have been demonstrated in the lower extremity veins, with an increase in the diameter of the vessels and an increase in smooth muscle cell count in the vessel wall19. However vessel wall thickness did not change dramatically20. Humoral control Under orthostatic stress there are various short and long term humoral mechanisms in place to maintain cardiovascular function. The long term regulation of blood volume is controlled primarily by the renal system. During prolonged orthostasis the Renin-Angiotensin-Aldosterone system is activated21 which acts to increase the blood volume by drawing fluid from the interstitium into the circulation. Responses of the kidney to orthostatic stress shows a decrease in sodium excretion9. It has been shown that changes in Na+ intake can alter baroreflex sensitivity and sympathetic activity22. Increasing salt (NaCl) intake has been shown to increase plasma volume and increase orthostatic tolerance in patients with unexplained syncope23. This suggests a dual role of Na+ in combating orthostatic stress as it influences positively both neural and hormonal anti-gravity defence mechanisms. Increases in plasma nor-adrenaline and spillover are seen, probably due to efferent sympathetic activity under orthostatic conditions9. A slight increase is seen in plasma ADH levels after LBNP (-37.5 mmHg) as is a slight increase in plasma renin concentration24. However, these changes were not seen in heart transplant recipients suggesting that aortic arch and/or cardiac receptors have a role in regulating renal blood volume control. ACTH and corticosterone (stress hormones) were found to rise above normal resting values upto 24 hours after assuming upright posture25. However, these results are taken from the rat model, so cannot be taken at face value when discussing effects of orthostasis in humans as there may be interspecies and biped/quadraped differences. The results do however add to the weight of evidence that suggests humoral adaptations play a major role in combating orthostatic stress long term. Autonomic Neuropathies Postural hypotension can develop in patients with long standing diabetes. When this occurs it is termed autonomic neuropathy as the diabetes causes damage to the autonomic nerves that control the heart, regulate blood pressure and control blood glucose. Autonomic neuropathy has been shown to affect upto 40% of the diabetic population26. As a result, upon standing blood pressure drops sharply as there is no sympathetic stimulation of peripheral vessels, causing a person to feel dizzy and they may possibly faint. The aetiology of diabetic neuropathy has not yet been pinpointed, suggested mechanisms include modification and inactivation of proteins critical to neural function by non-enzymatic glycosylation27, altered neural polyol metabolism28, microvascular disease with impaired bloodflow29 and ischaemia in diabetic nerves. Patients with Insulin Dependant Diabetes Mellitus (IDDM), especially those who are young but have a long disease duration, appear to be at a higher risk of developing autonomic neuropathy than those with Non Insulin Dependant Diabetes Mellitus (NIDDM). Studies have confirmed that the prevalence of diabetic neuropathy increases both with the duration of diabetes and with worsening hyperglycemia30. Glucose uptake into peripheral nerves is determined by blood glucose concentration. Glucose is converted by aldose reductase (rate-limiting enzym e of polyol pathway) to sorbitol, which can then be further metabolised to fructose. The nerve cell membrane is relatively impermeable to sorbitol and fructose, which tend to accumulate within the nerve28. The presence of sorbitol and fructose creates an osmotic potential which results in an inflow of water from the interstitium into the nerve, which impairs conduction and damages the nerve. It has been shown that the increased activity of the polyol pathway due to hyperglycaemia can lead to the production of highly reactive sugars that may glycate nerve proteins, which could damage nerve function in several ways. For example, glycation of tubulin, the monomer that polymerises to form microtubules, could interfere with axonal transport27. Nitric oxide (NO) is the free radical responsible for similar actions to that of Endothelium Derived Relaxing Factor (EDRF), in that it acts as a local vasodilator, released from endothelial cells. NO formation requires the co-factor NADPH, which is also required as a co-factor by aldose reductase. The increased activity of aldose reductase in hyperglycaemic conditions may reduce the amount of NADPH available for use by Nitric Oxide Synthase (NOS), with a resultant decrease in production of NO that could reduce nerve blood flow29. Conclusion Diabetic neuropathies amongst other autonomic neuropathies have been key in highlighting the importance of the effects of the autonomic nervous system in combating orthostatic stress. It is this initial response of the autonomic nervous system, through sympathetic stimulation that prevents a person from fainting upon standing and allows the body to maintain adequate circulation of blood to the head despite the increased pull of gravity on the circulating fluid. The Renin-Angiotensin-Aldosterone system plays a role in maintaining blood volume and blood pressure during prolonged orthostatic stress. A fall in an elderly person could severely affect their mobility and independence and therefore quality of life. It has been show n that the elderly are more likely to develop postural hypotension as there is a reduced compliance in venous vessels31. Anti-hypertensive medication such as á-blockers can also lead to hypotension, as the blocking of á-receptors in the peripheral vasculature prevents vasoconstriction, and there is consequently a large volume of blood pooled. Clinicians should be aware of the consequences of prescribing anti-hypertensive therapy to elderly patients as the development of hypotension and the increased risk of consequent fall could be more damaging to the individual in both psychological (loss of confidence) and physical (decreased mobility) terms. References 1. Sawka M.N, Convertino V.A, Eichner E.R, Schnieder S.M, Young A.J (2000). Blood volume: importance and adaptations to exercise training, environmental stresses, and trauma/sickness. Med Sci Sports Exerc 32, 332-348 2. Fritsh J.M, Charles J.B, Bennett B.S, Jones M.M, Eckberg D.L (1992). Short-duration spaceflight impairs human carotid baroreceptor-cardiac reflex responses. J Appl Physiol 73: 664-671 3. Cameron, N.E, Cotter, M.A (1994). The relationship of vascular changes to metabolic factors in diabetic mellitus and their role in the development of peripheral nerve complications. Diabetes Metabolic Review. 10:189-224 4. Gauer OH, Thron HL. Postural changes in the circulation. In: Handbook of physiology. Circulation, edited by W.F.Hamilton, Washington D.C: Am Physiol Soc, 1965, Sect 2, vol III, chap 67, p 2409-2439. 5. Lamb J.F, Ingram C.G, Johnston I.A, Pitman R.M. The Cardiovascular system. In: Essentials of Physiology. Blackwell Scientific Publications 1980. Chapter 5, pp 87-140. 6. White D.D, Montgomery L.D (1996). Pelvic blood pooling of men and women during lower body negative pressure. Aviat Space Environ Med 67: 555-559. 7. Sjostrand, T. Volume and distribution of blood and their significance in regulating the circulation. Physiol Rev. 33: 202, 1953 8. Sjostrand, T. The regulation of the blood volume regulat ion in man. Acta Physiol. Scand. 26: 312-327, 1962 9. Jacob G, Ertl A.C, Shannon J.R, Furlan R, Robertson R.M, Robertson D (1998). Effect of standing on neurohormonal responses and plasma volume in healthy subjects. J Appl Physiol 84:914-921. 10. Borst C, Wieling W, Van Brederode J.F.M, Hond A, De Rijk L.G, Dunning A.J (1982). Mechanisms of initial heart rate response to postural change. Am J Physiol 243 (Heart Circ. Physiol.12): H676-681. 11. Cooper V.L, Hainsworth R (2001). Carotid baroreceptor reflexes in humans during orthostatic stress. Experimental Physiology 86.5, 677-681. 12. Harms M.P, Wesseling K.H, Pott F, Jenstrup M, Van Goudoever J, Secher N.H, Van Lieshout JJ (1999). Continuous stroke volume monitoring by modelling flow from non-invasive measurement of arterial pressure in humans under orthostatic stress. Clin Sci 97, 291-301. 13. Hainsworth R (2000). Heart rate and orthostatic stress. Clinical Autonomic Research 10, 323-325 14. Palatini P, Pessina A.C (1987). Valsalva’s manoeuvre for evaluating the integrity of baroreceptor reflex arc. Archives of Internal Medicine 17, 614-615 (Abstract). 15. Victor R.G, Mark A.L (1985). Interaction of cardiopulmonary and carotid baroreflex control of vascular resistance in humans. Journal of Clinical Investigation 76, 1592-1598. 16. Bevegard S, Castenfors J, Lindblad L.E, (1977). Effects of changes in blood volume distribution on circulatory variables and plasma rennin activity in man. Acta Physiologica Scandinavica 99, 237-245. 17. Vukasovic J.L, Al-Timman J.K.A, Hainsworth R (1990). The effects of lower body negative pressure on baroreceptor responses in humans. Experimental Physiology 75, 81-93. 18. Donald D.E, Shepard J.T (1980). Autonomic regulation of the peripheral circulation. Ann Rev Physiol 42: 429-39 19. Monas E, Lorent M, Dornyei G, Berczi V, Nadasy G (2003). Long term adaptation mechanisms in extremity veins supporting Orthostatic Tolerance. News Physiol Sci 18:210-214 20. Monas E (1993). How does vein wall respond to pressure? News Physiol Sci 8:124-128. 21. Egan, B. M., S. Julius, C. Cottier, K. J. Osterziel, and H. Ibsen (1983). Role of cardiovascular receptor on the neural regulation of renin release in normal men. Hypertension 5: 779-786. 22. Grassi G, Cattaneo B.M, Seravalle G, Lanfranchi A, Bolla G, Mancia G (1997). Baroreflex impairment by low Na+ diet in mild or moderate Essential Hypertension. Hypertension 29: 802-807. 23. El-Sayed H, Hainsworth R (1996). Salt supplement increases plasma volume and orthostatic tolerance in patients with unexplained syncope. Heart, vol 75, 134-140. 24. Giannattasio C, Del Bo A, Cattaneo B.M, Cuspidi C, Gronda E, Frigerio M, Mangiavacchi M, Marabini M, De Vita C, Grassi G (1993). Reflex vasopressin and renin modulation by cardiac receptors in humans. Hypertension, vol 21, 461-469. 25. Monas E, Berczi V, Nadasy G L (1995). Local control of veins: biomechanical, metabolic and humoral aspects. Physiol Rev 75: 611-666. 26. Pickup J.C, Williams G (1997). Clinical features of Diabetic Neuropathy. In: Textbook of Diabetes, 2nd Edition, Blackwell Science, Chapter 50, p50.01-50.20. 27. Cullum N.A, Mahon J, Stringer K, McLean W.G (1991). Glycation of rat sciatic nerve tubulin in experimental diabetes mellitus. Diabetologica 34:387-389. 28. Greene D.A, Lattimer S.A, Seemer A.A.F (1987). Sorbitol, phosphoinositides and sodium-potassium ATP-ase in pathogenesis of Diabetic complications. N Engl J Med 316: 599-606 29. Cameron N.E, Cotter M.A (1994). The relationship of vascular changes to metabolic factors in diabetes mellitus and their role in the development of peripheral nerve complications. Diabetes Metab Rev 10: 189-224 30. Thomas P.K (1992). Diabetic neuropathy: models, mechanisms and mayhem. Can J Neurol Sci 19: 1-7 31. Huisman HW, Pretorius PJ, Van Rooyen JM, Malan NT, Eloff FC, Laubscher PJ, Steyn HS (1999). Hemodynamic changes in the cardiovascular system during the early phases of orthostasis. Acta Physiol Scand 166(2):145-9 .

Gurupanth Veera, you say, Although it seems to you, never did I say a Sikh should specifically go to a Mandhir. It seems to me common sense a Sikh should go to Gurdwara for worship but in circumstances such as invitations, a Sikh can go to the Mandhir. If you personally are not confident to meditate on Waheguru's name in a Mandhir whilst the Hindus carry out their worship, then there is no need for you to go to the Mandhir. But you can not generalise your cimrcumstances to every Sikh out there. Praying to Waheguru does not need a time or place, it can, infact it should be done openly withought fear. Sure Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to the Mosque to show a point. But if Sikhs were restricted to go to the Mandhir I'm sure he would have not went there in the first place. Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not specifically go to the Mosque as far as I am aware, but he accepted an invitation and conducted his afternoon prayer there. Another point this shows is that a Sikh does not need a specific location or time to worship Waheguru as I have metioned above. Errm... I dont recall saying that? Like I have said above, he went because he was invited. A Sikh should not exclusivly go to a place of worship other than the Gurdwara to worship Waheguru, however if invited to attened a place of worship other than Gurdwara, a Sikh should not hesitate to go and pray to Waheguru Ji. However if you dont feel confident in doing so, then you dont have to go. ISingh Veera, you say, I appreciate that you have used references wherever possible from Guru Granth Sahib Ji but not a single one of these quotes actually says something along the lines of, 'A Sikh should only pray to his Lord Waheguru in the Gurdwara Sahib' or 'A Sikh should never attened and worship Waheguru in a place of worship other than the Gudwara Sahib. I respect and agree with these quotes but nowhere do any of them suggest a Sikh can not attened a place of worship other than the Gurdwara and worship Waheguru. Please do not twist the tranlsation just to back up youre own opinions. I admitt I have not used any references from Gurbani- but this is far better than using references that you have hindered to back up your personal beliefes. Although it is always imposible to translate Gurbani 100% in another language, but it is always clear when one has used these translations in a context that simply is way off the point. Gurbani simply and litteraly means what it says. I have never suggested a Sikh should see a Mosque or Mandhir as an alternative to Gurdwara. As I beliefe, the sole purpose of the Gurdwara is so that a Sikh could confidently pray to his/her Lord Waheguru and perform the Sikh practices in a place where the Sikh Sangat accumulates in large numbers. Obviously, it is apperent from this that a Sikh should ideally worship Waheguru Ji only in the Gurdwara Sahib, but when h e/she is visiting a place of worship other than the Gurdwara Sahib on the basis of education or due to an invitation, then he/she should not hesitate to pray to Waheguru Ji. I did not suggest that the point of Gurdwara is so that Sikhs could worship Waheguru with idol worship, arti and other Hindu practices. Sure you can not do this in a Mandhir, mosque or Church. Thats why the Gurdwara is the ideal place for Sikh to worship Waheguru. But nowhere does this quote suggest a Sikh should not go to a Mandhir, Mosque or Church to pray to Waheguru. Why cant you interpretate this as it simply is suggesting? It means as you first suggested, 'The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord.' So whats this got to do with Sikhs originating from Waheguru? To be honest, everyone has orginated from Waheguru as we all have the Lord inside us, so we can delete this from equation and say that many of our ancestors were the Hindus. Thank you Veera, by saying this you made my life easier as you, youreself compared frieds from our social life to Guru Ji. You have misinterpretated what I was trying to point out. OK Bhagat Kabeer Ji was a Gursikh, but what was he before he became a Sikh? A Muslim. Also, who says a Muslim cant have love for Guru Ji? I have seen many times on Lashkara muslim Jathas singing Gurabani at Gurdwara's in India. Youre probably saying I have no Vishwaas in Guru Granth Sahib ji at all because I have not up untill now commented on the references you quoted from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But to be honest I did'nt see the need to do this as none of your references simply suggested that Sikhs should not attened any place of worship other than the Gurdwara and pray to Waheguru. Twist the interpretaion of Gurbani to support my arguement is the last thing I would do- unlike you have been doing- so who has less vishwaas in Guru Grath Sahib Ji??? Not only do you twist the interpretation of Gurbani, you also presume there are certian bits of Gurbani that you would like to exist just to support youre beliefes- and then you presume I have no vishwaas in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Come on Sangat Jee. Get voting on this topic. Im sure all of you havent voted yet! Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Novtej Veera there is already a topic on caste. All disscusions on caste I'm sure are welcome on it. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Esactly. Untill we are not sant and sipahee, we should not wear the Kirpan. What I meant by the Pure Soldier was the 'Khalsa' Soldier. And the true Khalsa is the one who is a sant and sipahee. Therefore the Kirpan should only be worn by Amrithdhari Sikhs Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

JKaur Penji I've never come accross such an ignorant bunch. I mean how many times have you told them to stop it? Waheguru Ji give them some sense. I think ALL of the shabads can pump you up if you know the meaning of them. But one that esspecially pumps me up is the Sikh Natiational Anthem. If you know the words to it, sing it at the top of your voice with meaning and feel the pleasure take over your mind. DEH SHIVA BAR MOHE IHA Grant me this boon, 0, God, from thy greatness SHUBH KARMAN TEY KABHU NA TAROON May I never refrain from righteous acts, NA DAROO AR SIYOO JAB JAH LAROO May I fight without fear all foes in life's battle, NISCHAI KAR APNE JEET KAROO With confident courage claiming the victory' AR SIKH HAO APNE HE MUN KO May Thy glory be gained in my mind, EH LALACH HAU GUN TAU UCHROO And my highest ambition be singing thy praises JAB AAV KI AUDH NIDHAAN BANAY When this mortal reaches its limits, AUT HE RAN ME TAB JOOJH MAROO May I die fighting with limitless courage' BOLE SO NIHAL SAT SRI AKHAL!!! Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Well if you cant be a pure soldier you should not take amrit. Bhull chuck maaf Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

(~*SiNghNi*~ Im not commenting on any other topic other than this very one. You call yourself a 'moorakh' in the opening paragraph remember? When I disagree with you, you have a problem, and when I agree with you, you still have a problem! Thought I'd be nice to you this time but you really dont know how to appreciate gifts do you? What kind of person are you? Are you ever satisfied. I think krodh suits you and your charecter full of ego. You have gained something invaluable by being angry, you just added to your basket of evils. You should be thankfull to the things I do to you- you wont find krodh cheaper than this anywhear. Who are you to say most people on this forum think Im a fool? I say what I believe in my innermost self. How many people do you know share their thoughts 100%. If you dont like what I say its your problem. Besides, I only agreed with what you said, but instead of appreciating that you got angree. I dont understa nd your charecter (~*SiNghNi*~! Your a weird one. And something says inside me I'll never understand you. Im not tring to impress anyone out there but even if I was, what would you loose from this? I replied to keep you happy- you wanted me to didnt you. Well you got it. Tell me what dont I do for you? I do all this for you because I like you- youre an interesting charecter with a good sense of humour. Pray to Waheguru that you dont loose your touch. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Could not agree with you more ~*SiNghNi*~. We share a common view for the first time. Amazing! Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

To the Vir Ji's who want to know why it is OK for a Sikh to go to a Mandhir- well the answer is simply so that he/she could pray to the wonderfull lord Waheguru. Gurupanth Veera you say, 'Are you saying that there is nothing wrong for Sikhs to go to the Mandir to to take part in worshipping idols, joining in with the arti ceremony or any other hindu practice?' No I am not implying any of that as I actally did make that clear in my previous article if you read it properaly. Did not Guru Nanak Dev Ji go to a Masjid and continued to worship Waheguru withought any influence from esactly how the Muslim brothers were worshiping Allah? If Guru Nanak Dev Ji can worship Waheguru in a Masjid withought any influences, then why can not his Sikhs worship Waheguru in a Mandhir withought idol worship, arti and any other Hindu practice? Because of this, not only is it ecceptable for a Sikh to worship in a Mandhir, but in any place of worship e.g. Masjid, Church and ect., as long they are firmly in grip of their identity (internal and external). Chardi_kalaa Veera you say, 'Another benti to "Dr Mani". Could you please stop patronising us by stating definations from the Dictionary? We are not patients or students attending your lectures, and we dont need these definations to help us understand what these words mean. Just by putting a "Doctor" infront of your name, doesnt mean you have the right to question our knowledge.' I am not trying to patronise you but if thats the way you feel, I cant help you there brother, thats a psychiatrists job- not a doctors. If you dont like the fact that I do state defonitions from th e dictionary then you dont have to read them. Another thing, I only state defonitions if I'm in doubt the member I'm replying to knows the meaning of the word either he/she previously used, or I would seriosly like them to come to terms with. You may not be a patient or student attendeing my lectures but you are Guru Ji's patient and therfore you respect the views of the Sadhsangat- like I respect your views. Also- godforbid- you may one day become my patient- would you continue to then let your anger and ego let you die. You may not be attending my lectures, but the whole point of 'www.sikhsangat.com' is so that you can learn from the Sikh Sangat and even share your interesting views with other Sikhs. ISingh Veera you are absolutly right by saying, 'And isn't Sikhi already filled with rituals and practices from Hinduism?' But these practices have not infiltrated Sikhism recently but existed from the time Sikhism was founded. This is because the majority of people who were following the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, when Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born were the Hindus. With the grace of Waheguru Ji these early Sikhs did adapt to the correct way of living as Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught them but there is no doubt that perfoming rituals was not completely abolished. This is very understandable as these early Sikhs had been practicing these rituals for thousands of years and if all of them did not stop the practice of these rituals immediatly, there is nothing suprising about that. Howerver, there is no doubt that ritualism did rapidly decline among the people who followed the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The fact that many Sikhs today perform these rituals is too, not very suprising as many of our ancestors originate from the Hindus. Remember Sikhism is still relativly a young religion, and one day practice of such rituals would be abolished in our people. You also say, 'Firstly you can't compare your friends fro m your social life to Guru Ji coming to your house. Thats that. Secondaly there are no hardcore conclusions. What i said was quoted from what the pardaan sahib from Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara at the time of vasakhi said. He said "they wan't to pay respect", whats wrong with that. He was invited by Singh Sabha to the Gurdwara to question him about what was going on with the Nagar Kirtan-Seen as Leeds Road was where the Nagar Kirtan was starting from. The same Pardaan justfied his answer by saying "Both Hindu and Muslim Bani is in the Guru Granth Sahib." Now if this is came from the Pardhaan of a Gurdwara, then what are the thoughts of the Sangat. Obviously the same.' Firstly, why can not we compare friends from our social life to Guru Ji coming our house? Is Guru Ji not our social friend? Infact you'll find Guru Ji is our only true friend in life as he only tells us the Truth and guides us to liberation. You may say yes Guru Ji is our friend but not our social friend, but if you look back in the times of Guru Gobind Singh Ji- many of his Sikhs went hunting with him- so the sikhs did socialise with their Guru. Infact I believe even Naam Simran is Socialising with Guru Ji and Waheguru Ji as when one meditates on the lords name, Guru Ji showers them with bliss. Secondly, you did draw a harcore conclusion in you reply by stating, 'Because they know the majority of sikhs dont have a clue and are vulnerable, they ask for Nagar Kirtan to stop outside the mandhir. Why? So they can drill the idea into the Nagar Kirtan sangat that Sikhi is part of Hinduism!!!!' If the pardhan of Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara at the time of the 2003 Nagar Kirtan, Bradford said, 'Both Hindu and Muslim Bani is in the Guru Granth Sahib.' then that is obviously wrong as there is no such thing as 'Hindu Bani' and 'Muslim Bani' in Guru Granth Sahib Ji as, 'Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani'. However I think th e pardhan was triyng to implement by his statement that Guru Granth Sahib Ji contained Bani written both by Hindus and Muslims e.g. Bani written by Bhagat Kabeer Ji who himself was a muslim. Finally ISingh Veera I have noticed that you refer the Gudwara you regulary attened by its proper name, 'Singh Sahiba Gurdwara'. However you dont refer to the Gudwara I regularly attened by its proper name. The Gudwara to which you refer to as 'Leeds Road' is infact called 'Guru Gobind Singh Gurdwara' if you alraedy did not know. So my request to you is to call the Gurdwara I regularly attened by its proper name as there is no such thing as 'Leeds Road Gudwara'. Infact you should refer to any Gurdwara by its proper name, not to its location. Bhull Chuck Maaf Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Happy Birthday MKaur and Gagan. Waheguru bless. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

I agree with S1ngh veera there. Another point, to the Vir ji's and Penjis who say the 5ks are equaly important and should be worn all the time even if one is not amritdhari- then why is OK if a mona whears a Kara but wrong when he/she wears a Kirpan? This obviosly means that the Kirpan probably signifies more importance than the other 4K's because a Singh or a Kaur wearing it are potraying to the society that they are Guru Gobind Singh Ji's soldior. Because of this I conclude a Kirpan should only be worn by the pure soldior-'the khalsa' therefore you must be amritdhari to wear a Kirpan Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

Khalsa Veera do you know where to icons such as khanday or ikonkars? Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani

ISingh Veera, I thank you that you will try to confirm that there is such a hukamnama. You say, 'they ask for Nagar Kirtan to stop outside the mandhir. Why? So they can drill the idea into the Nagar Kirtan sangat that Sikhi is part of Hinduism!!!!' To be honest I personaly think that the majority of the Sikhs would just laugh if someone told them the Sikhs are part of Hinduism- they certainly cant persuade me just by taking the Nagar Kirtan to the Mandhir. Also most of the youth at the Bradford Nagar Kirtan just go to 'check out' so it doesnt matter to them wherever you take them (im not implying this is good but im just pointing out if they were try to drill something in someones head, who would be concerned?) As for the youth that are religious, well they know better dont they. You also say, 'The other reason they give is that they want to pay respect to Guru Ji????? Guru Ka Ghar (Gurdwara) is open to anyone and everyone for them to pay satkaar to Guru Ji. So why is the Mandhir any special??' I dont believe they are implying the Mandhir is a special place but I believe its just simply what they say- they want to show their respect. Why do we invite close friends to our houses for meals? Its just respect. I think we shouldnt jump to hardcore conclusions unless their is solid evidence- but this was just painting youre own picture withought anything to paint. You also say, 'But if your saying "Oh i don't want to go to the Gurdwara today, i'll go the Mandir today" then that is completely wrong for obvious reasons, the first one being idol worship is completely against Gurmat. Seco ndly, you being a Sikh will complete contradict what Guru Ji Says about idol worship' As far as the Nager Kirtan was concerened, noone out of the sangat went to the Mandhir as an alternative to the Gurdwara and I didnt hear of any Sikh at the Nagar Kirtan conducting idol worship- and if they did then thats their problem as they have'nt got the knowledge. But fundamently there is nothing wrong for a Sikh to go to Mandhir. You say, 'Correct. But here's why Guru Nanak Dev Ji really went to Masjid:[...]' Its not important why Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Masjid for our sake but whats more important to us is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did attened another place of worship other than the Gurdwara. ~*SiNghNi*~ penji you say, 'Isingh i think ur getting ur wires crossed i was being sarcastic yeh but rashpal he didnt mean it in a good way his intentions were still wrong am i the only bloody one on here that can read inbetween the lines? lol Akhal Sikh Association ? u must be joking if thats sikhi active then im the queen of england ' Please lets stop being sarcastic and lets start being 'straight'- it works over the phone or face-to-face but if you have'nt figured out yet, it doesnt seem to work over the net. I have suggested you to stop pressuming things before and I do it again- you cannot judge what was said in a bad way or good way - just literally accept what someone has said to you. If you dont even know who ISingh Veera was replying to then how could you possible read between lines? :T: As for the Akhal Sikh Association, who are you to decide whether their active or not- how many times have you been their?...-NEVER! You could have atleast looked up the definition of 'active' and then bothered replying. Active in the cambridge dictionary is: 'busy with or ready to perform a particular activity' And heres the link just for your reference: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...ALD&desc=active Yes, I claim the ASA to be active under the cambridge dictionary defonition as they are busy and perform activities in the form of weekly presentations. Because they say, 'seeing is believing' if you want to see what goes on at the ASA- come down, Wednesdays 7-8:30PM at the Panjabi School. If you then have any points to make about ASA then feel welcome to tell us. Meanwhile, stop making your own implications because your not some sort of 'Antherjami'. Penji I suggest you spend just a further 5 minutes and research about the truth before making such remarks that niether favour me or yourself. Its because of arogant people like you that us Sikhs are not united and until you people come to grip with a thing called 'sanity', we cannot ever unit. And oh yeah ~*SiNghNi*~ penji, just for your information the cambridge defonition for 'sanity' is: ' having a healthy mind and not mentally ill, or showing good judgment and understanding'. It will also help if you go to the following link and actualy read some examples of the word 'sanity'- and maybe just then you may understand what it means: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...69764&dict=CALD Good luck- it will be a day of achievment when you understand this simple yet powerfull word- and when you actually become what it means it will be the biggest and best thing you've achieved and you'll have many more friends. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani Waheguru~Waheguru~Waheguru help us, need some guidance from above, these people got me got me questioning, where is the love???????????????

Why cant we have mainstream Sikhi as our wonderfull father, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib wanted it? Khalsa should be one and united- with NO jathabandi's. To be perfectly honest I think the Jathas are created because Sikhs dont agree with one anothers rehit and Sikh way of living. They then claim we were set up to do parchar of the 'True' Sikhi. It makes me wonder- all the different jathas- not all can be true can they? I believe non of the Jathas are the truth because of this. Sangat Ji, if we are to unite me must all have the same Sikhi and the rehit and we must all come under one banner: THE KHALSA If you ask me the Jathas are doing no good but just segregating Sikhi- which is not what Guru Gobind Singh Ji wanted. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Doctor_Mani