>Bikramjit Singh<

Raju On the one hand you claim that you do not understand the mentality of Punjab police and yet you state that if people don't like the way India is run then they can get out. Seems like you have the same attitude as Punjab police. As for the Kashmir problem, it is well beyond any resolution. I think both you and I agree that Islamic terrorism will always be there amongst Muslim peoples. The peaceful years in Kashmir were just a long interval between two massacres 1948 and 1990. In 1948 the same Kashmiris that you think can make good citizens of India massacred both Sikhs and Hindus in Kashmir. The same places that the earthquake hit (muzaffarabad and uri) were places with large Sikh minorities until they were all massacred. One large group of Sikh refugees from Muzaffarabad area were massacred by local Kashmiris and out of 15000 people only about 5 survived. The only resolution to Kashmir problem would have been the same exchange of population that took place in Punjab, with the Kashmiris migrating to Pakistan and the Hindus and Sikhs from NWFP and Rawalpindi being resettled in Kashmir. Nehru made sure that this never happened and so you have the Kashmir problem.

Where are the Mods? I would have thought that using profanity would earn someone a warning or at least a kurtas style 'under moderation'. This is a discussion forum and if K_Singh said something that people didn't agree with then by all means they should dispute this but some hotheads with a limited vocabulary can only use profanities to put forward their view. The funny thing is that sometimes the same people who like to refer to others as 'fanatics' are fanatics themselves. Reminds me of our old 'foot in mouth' sufferer Neo Singh. Anyway everyone is entitled to their opinion and those who don't share your opinion may be wrong in your eyes but they don't deserve profanities being thrown in their direction. As it is my view is it could be Kashmiri terrorists, Al Qaida and it may even have been the GOI or at least rogue elements of the Indian establishment who are fearful of the co-operation between Pakistan and India due to the earthquake. I said it could be so it also might not be. But mindful of how repressive and genocidal the GOI has been to Sikhs and other minorities, to think that it would lose a seconds sleep over and much less care about the lives of 60 odd innocent people is naive. As for the credibility of the people investigating the bombing, isn't that the same Delhi Police that planted bombs on a UK Sikh five years ago and then had it's knuckes rapped by the judge when their version of events was found to be a fake?

I agree with Kurtas. Bhagat Singh shot and killed the wrong person (Saunders) as well as killing an innocent Sikh policeman. The revenge he was seeking was non-existent. Lala Lajpat Rai was one of the top most Arya Samaji Hindus who died of a heart attack and not due to any beating by a lathi from the police. The Hindus at that time true to their desire to show that anything Sikhs could do Hindus could do better started to refer to Lala Lajpat Rai as SHER-E-PUNJAB!!! Think about it an old man suffers a heart attack at the thought of getting hit by a lathi and suddenly he becomes the equal of Maharaja Ranjit Singh! During the same period (1930's) the Hindus also made their replica of Harmandir Sahib which is called Durgiana Mandir. Lala Lajpat Rai had a hand in that too.

In my experience you are wasting your time having any discussion with a Muslim. They're only reason for being friends with you is create doubts in your mind about Sikhi. If you really want to give him one of the benefits of Sikhi 1. Ask him if he believes in the hadiths 2. If he does point him to hadith no 816 http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/Display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=816 3. Ask him what he thinks of Mohammed allowing his followers to rape captured women as per the hadith above 4. One of the benefits of Sikhi is that we follow our Gurus who lived their lives to the highest moral standards whilst he follows Mohammed who allowed rape.

Nope this Sumeet Kaur is someone else. A Danish lady who became a Sikh.

Let's Delve Deeper By Sumeet Kaur Born in a Christian family, I abandoned Christianity as a teenager, thinking there was nothing in it that I could use in my day-to-day living. People used to ask, "Why, don't you believe in God?" and I used to answer, "Yes, I do, very much believe in God, but not in Christianity." When I encountered Sikhi, reading Japuji, it was love at first sight, as I had found a useful tool to deal with my day-to-day living. Later, when I found out that even Sikh scholars fought to get Sikhi accepted among the world's religions, I wondered what was so great about that. I was certainly not looking for a new religion. The one, into which I was born, believes in <admin-profanity filter activated> birth, another in the inferiority of women, yet one in the inequality of human beings, and finally, one in the coming of a new saviour. Why and how on earth should and could Sikhi fit in among such religions? I think it is underestimating Sikhi. Below are some views (in italics) of some Sikh scholars expressed in a recent issue of a leading magazine. Their references have been deliberately omitted, because the purpose of this article is not to criticise anyone or start a controversy, but to use the occasion to delve deeper into the philosophy propounded by the Gurus and understand its relative status vis-à-vis the other world religions. What a Fit ! "The Guru Granth incorporates all the features to keep it alongside the world's greatest scriptures." "Such is the Guru Granth, the sacred book of the Sikhs, that it takes its place alongside the world's greatest scriptures, the Vedas, the Zind-Avesta, the Bible and the Quran." Is this all that can be said about Guru Granth Sahib on the 400th anniversary of its installation? Guru Granth Sahib does not just fit alongside other scriptures, it is light-years ahead of them, because of the fact that it is for the whole of humanity. Other scriptures are exclusive for the followers of their own faith, who regard others as infidels. True to the Essence? Guru Nanak most certainly did not, "...urge members of the two main religious beliefs in India, the Hindus and the Muslims, to be true to their own faiths and practise their faith's essence rather than being exploitative." For, if a Hindu shall be true to the essence of his faith, he will have to practise the caste system, which in itself is highly exploitative. And, a Muslim would have to consider women inferior and all non-Muslims as infidels, which is equally exploitative. How then could the Guru have urged the two communities to be true to their own faith? The Guru, on the contrary, has described his concept of a Hindu and a Muslim in Guru Granth Sahib. And that has got nothing to do with the philosophy of Hinduism or Islam: "Make compassion the cotton, contentment the yarn; Continence the knot and purity the twist; Such is the true sacred thread of the self. Thou Brahmin-priest! put this on me, shouldst thou have it. This thread neither snaps nor is soiled; Neither burnt nor lost. Saith Nanak: Blessed are the beings that around their neck put this."1 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 471 "Five are the Muslim prayers; five their appointed hours, Five their names. These be the true prayers: Truthfulness is the first, legitimate earning the second; The third, prayer to God for universal weal. The fourth is sincerity of heart and mind; The fifth, laudation of God. Recite the kalima of noble acting — Thus may one be called Mussalman. Saith Nanak: Of all hypocrites, ignoble is the end."2 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 141 Here, the Guru refers to the janeu, namaz and kalima as metaphors, to bring home his point to Hindus and Muslims as to how one can become a good human being. Many such rituals and also many other activities, such as, ploughing a field, making wine, etc., have too been similarly used. For example : "Put in the molasses of enlightenment, the mahua flowers of meditation, And the bark of good deeds. On the oven of devotion set these to boil; with the wet cloth of love cool these _ Thus distil amrita-elixir."3 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 360 Surely, the Guru is not explaining how to make wine or recommending its use/manufacture. Similarly, the janeu, namaz and other religious rituals are not being advocated. I think, Guru Nanak's teachings are glaringly clear. If you shall be true to his teachings of brotherhood of man and fatherhood of God, then you cannot subscribe to either the Hindu philosophy or the Islamic philosophy. Synthesis? Distillate? "To respect a philosophy is correct but to synthesise this in one's own is an entirely unique matter. The verses by bhagats have been treated at par with Gurbani and respected too in the same manner." "The Guru Granth Sahib is the distillate of the teachings of the great spiritualists of India belonging to different religious traditions and coming from different parts of India." If the Guru was so impressed with the earlier Indian traditions, how come his life and teachings were totally contrary to these? And as for the inclusion of the writings of bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib, it was only the writings of bhagats and other poets that tallied with the Guru's life-affirming philosophy that were included. Sardar Daljeet Singh rebutted such statements years ago _ a) that Sikhism is a synthesis of other religions and b) that it is a distillate of other spiritualists, after he had studied the earlier Indian traditions and other world religions. I reproduce below some of his conclusions for the benefit of readers as well as scholars: "We have already described the chief tenets and trends of Indian mysticism and those of Guru Nanak's religion. On almost every essential issue Guru Nanak's answers to the mystic and the human problems are generally contrary to those given by the earlier systems. The then existing religious movements had been running in a direction exactly opposite to the one in which Guru Nanak wanted his religious stream to flow. The system of the Gurus and the Indian religions lay down contrasted goals for man."4 "The Radical Bhakti saints had, to an extent, weaned away the people from ritualism and formalism of the earlier systems. But being Quietists themselves, they never thought of a change in the direction of the spiritual stream as vital to their mysticism. Because of their mystic experience and the logic of their religious system, the Gurus took up the colossal task of completely reversing the direction of the religious life and of diverting all spiritual energies for the enrichment of human affairs."5 "A broad survey of the world's religions reveals that the essential elements of the Guru's system were nowhere to be found in the contemporary religious life and scene. Much less was there any visible trace of them in the Indian background. It comprised systems that were quite opposed in their outlook, approach and religious thesis."6 Not Critical ? Not Negation ? Guru Nanak advises the people to "build a mosque of mercy and kindness instead of cruelty, have a prayer-mat made of faith, earn their bread through toil and sweat, treat that as the holy Koran, stay away from evil deeds, live contended lives, observe fasts and thus evolve into a true Muslim". Not only this, he states that rather than gazing towards Mecca, they should "do good deads, consider truth as their vendor, kindness as their prayer and all this as the reciting of namaz : God would certainly acknowledge those prayers." _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 140 An author inter alia refers to the above hymn and comments : "Verses of the Bani show four dialogues relating to Islam. The first is associated with the recitation and technique of namaz. The second one preaches on observance of fast and rightful earning. The third dialogue deals with the qazis and how they should conduct themselves, recite all five namaz correctly. The fourth verse stresses on the proper preaching, by religious leaders. All these dialogues are not at all critical of the philosophy of Islam, but rather they enjoin the followers as to what norms and values should be adopted and what kind of qualities their leaders should possess. It is clear that all these dialogues point towards the general public. These are not related to leaders but with the actions of religious leaders and their followers." How can the author come to the above-mentioned conclusion ? Guru Nanak is describing to the Muslims how to be a good human being, and that has got nothing to do with `recitation and technique of namaz', or `with the preaching and observance of fast'. The very fact that Guru Nanak started a new faith is reflective of the fact that he was critical of whatever he observed around him. "There is but one God, By the True Guru's grace, He is obtained. No one should be proud of his caste. He alone is Brahmin, who knows his Lord. O stupid fool, be thou not proud of thy caste. From this pride many sins well up."7 _ Guru Granth Sahib, pp 1127-28 The same author also observes : "The point worth noting here is that none of the composers (in Guru Granth Sahib) has negated the basic philosophy of any religion." But as per the Guru : "Whatever the pandits and the mullahs have written, That I have rejected, and have accepted but nothing."8 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 1159 I have already quoted Sardar Daljeet Singh for writing that there is no trace of the essential elements of the Guru's system to be found in the contemporary religious life and the scene of those times. Much less was there any visible trace of them in the Indian background, which means that he negated all the old systems and took people in the direction of the Universal Truth. "The body is the paper, the mind's tendencies the Divine decree on it recorded. Man ignorant, reads not the writ recorded on his head. The three decrees under mentioned at the Divine Court are writ: Behold, the base coin is of little use. Saith Nanak: Should it contain genuine silver, All shall pronounce it genuine. The Muslim judge utters falsehood and eats filth; The Brahmin guilty of slaughter of humanity, makes show of pious bathing; The yogi, blind of insight, knows not the true praxis. The devices of all three ruin mankind. The true yogi the true praxis understands, And by the Master's grace the Sole Lord realizes. the true qazi turns his mind away from maya, And by the Master's grace dies while living. The true Brahmin is one who the Supreme Being contemplates. Liberates himself, to others brings liberation. Truly wise is one who washes his heart of impurity; The true Muslim one who washes off his impurity. Such of the learned alone are approved of by God, As bear on the forehead mark of Divine commendation."9 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 662 If a Brahmin shall liberate others he will have to cease to be a Hindu, for, according to Hinduism, he is not supposed to be even in the same room with the so-called lower castes. How then can he liberate others while remaining a Hindu? A good human being, according to Guru Nanak, is one who lives truthfully, is honest, fights injustice, and has compassion for the whole of humanity. A Tool for Living I still wonder what makes Sikh scholars want to fit Sikhi among some of the world's earlier outdated systems of religious thought. An ocean does not fit into a pitcher. Had Sikhs stayed out of this race and, on the contrary, insisted that Sikhi does not belong to the category of the world's other religions, they would probably have had no problems in France today. Sikhi is not a religion in the traditional sense, but a unique will to live life according to the Universal Truth/His Will. Sikhi is there for everybody to pick up and live. And I am sure that there are people around the world who live Sikhi (or close to it) without ever having heard about it. Considering all equal, they are helpful and content, and remember God at all times. They do not formally belong to the Sikh religion. However, they simply live Sikhi. Sikhi is the Universal Truth, which is within every human being; it is up to every individual to discover it for himself/herself. And here Sikhi is a useful tool; it takes you away from the stinking fountains of ritual religion to the ocean of Universal Truth. Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Jews are all welcome to inculcate the values of Sikhi and finally find a way out for emancipation of the world afflicted with strife and hatred due to clash of religious denominations. I think that is what Guru Nanak meant when he said, "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim", decrying false pretensions of religions. Guru Arjun leaves no doubt about it : "I observe neither the fasting nor the ritual of the Ramadan month: Him I serve who at the last shall save. The Lord of the universe of the Hindus and Allah to me are one: From Hindus and Muhammadans have I broken free. I perform neither Kaaba pilgrimage nor at bathing spots worship: One sole Lord I serve, and no other. I perform neither the Hindu worship nor namaz: To the sole formless Lord in my heart I bow. We neither are Hindus nor Musalmans: Our body and life is Allah-Rama's"10 _ Guru Granth Sahib, p 1136 Sikhi is a way out for this religion-torn world, because it is a tool for living life in accordance with the Universal Truth. Seeking an Answer Reading Gurbani, I thought that the Guru had liberated me, but as per the advice of such Sikh scholars as quoted above, I should remain true to the essence of Christianity, my earlier faith by birth. Should I, therefore, continue believing in `<admin-profanity filter activated> birth' and that `only Jesus can save me'?

Atheist Initially you wrote Now you say Not really a consistant argument is it?

I don't think they're disrespecting the religion but pointing out how some insecure believers need religious signs in melons and deformed ears to confirm their religious beliefs

Ok so if someone isn't born into a religion and these guys weren't the founders of a NEW religion then doesn't that make them atheists? It's funny how atheists pick on the bad things committed by people who claim to be part of a religion but try and deny that the biggest genocidal killers were Atheists

So were Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot the founders of a new religion? Since they weren't your argument fails. Now off to bed with you, your parents will be back soon and your dad wouldn't like you messing on his computer

I think the same applies to you and most on this forum. Yeh i feel for my Sikh brothers n sisters ... but i also feel for my Hindu and Muslim brothers and sisters. Let me put in yet another way for you - you wanna prioritise who you help, then i think u shud help those that DESERVED to be helped... ie. the good hearted, true honest people in the world IF you feel you HAVE to prioritise. And i dont believe that true good-hearted, honest people are only found in Sikhi. There are good hindus, xians, muslims, jews, buddhists, jains and wot not. I dont think WE are one to judge. Just because someone claims they are Sikh, does not make them good Sikhs or even good persons. So how can you judge? 128378[/snapback] I think you need to read through the thread again because you have obviously not understood what has been written. The FACT is that by following your reasoning Sikhs will come out the losers in the aid distribution. Everyone is for an equal share of the aid but unless you haven't been reading the news regarding Sikhs you should know that Sikhs are not getting their share of the aid. So both myself and Sikh Supreme said that Sikh aid efforts should be targetted towards Sikhs. Is that so hard to understand? The last part of your post made no sense. @ Are you saying we shouldn't help those Sikhs because they might not be good Sikhs or even good persons??? So we should get a character reference for each of these Sikhs before we help them??

Weren't Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot atheists? Something like 100 million peoples' blood on their hands. 128340[/snapback] I dont beleive they were Atheists, much of that is propaganda. I personally wouldn't like to suck up to suicide bombers 128357[/snapback] So what religion were they? If they followed the religion they were born into they would be a Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Taoist and Buddhist respectively

BSL Nah man you're welcome in my book. As one of the posters said as long as no one disses Sikhi all welcome. Use the forum as a resource to learn more about Sikhi and share you views

forgive me, for i am thick. please xplain 128345[/snapback] Read your previous post.

Are these the Sikhs that were on the News channel fighting Islamic terrorists on the LoC after the Earthquake ? 128338[/snapback] No they're the Sikh victims of the earthquake. Those in remote Sikh villages in Kashmir as well as some in NWFP in Pakistan

Weren't Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot atheists? Something like 100 million peoples' blood on their hands.

I'm sure the Sikhs who are freezing on the mountain tops in Kashmir are thankful that you hold such views. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and write such things. I wonder if you would be so into 'they' aren't the same as 'them' if you were one of those Sikhs.

I did AS Level Sikh Studies, got an A in it. That was like 10 years ago.

Regarding this subject, its not the victims' fault nor is it in their control that they are a: hit by a natural disaster and b: some other aid organisations are only supporting their own. Remember the scale of people affected by this ... MILLIONS. 128198[/snapback] But then whose fault is it that Sikhs don't bother to concentrate on helping their own fellow Sikhs? Let's look at your view in figures Say 1,000,000 people are homeless due to earthquake 10,000 of these are Sikhs and 990,000 are non-Sikhs Govts and aid organisations collect £ 99,000,000 in aid which all goes to the non-Sikhs due to discrimination. So each homeless non-Sikh gets £100 each. Sikhs collect £1,000,000 in aid which they distribute to everyone so everyone Sikh and non-Sikh gets £10 each. So in the end each non-Sikh gets £110 each and each Sikh gets £10. Is this really your idea of Sarbat Da Bhala?

It's a question of priorities. Due to the situation that Sikhs find themselves in, they will be double victims. Firstly by the earthquake and secondly by the discriminatory attitude of the govt relief agencies. Maybe we should say they will be thrice victims, thirdly by fellow Sikhs who believe that Sikh agencies should not make the Sikh victims a priority ---------- Akali Dal(M) accuses JK govt of inadequate relief to Sikhs Srinagar: The Shiromani Akali Dal (Mann) today accused the Mufti Mohammad Sayeed government in Jammu and Kashmir of ''ignoring'' Sikhs in relief distribution in quake-hit areas. ''The minority Sikh community is being ignored while relief distribution in Kashmir's quake-affected areas.... Villages inhabited by Sikhs are being singled out,'' Shiromani Akali Dal (Mann) president Simranjit Singh Mann told a press conference here. He appealed to the government to treat all the communities at par and provide adequate relief to all the survivors. Mr Mann also expressed concern over foreign aid agencies not being allowed to visit Jammu and Kashmir. A five-page memorandum in this regard was submitted to Jammu and Kashmir Governor Lt Gen (Retd) S K Sinha on behalf of the Shiromani Akali Dal (Mann) after several teams of the party visited the quake-hit areas of north Kashmir.

Sikh Supreme I agree with you. The Sikhs who suffered in the earthquake are small minorities both sides of the border. In Indian Kashmir there are reports that Sikh villages along the border have been bypassed and all govt aid is going to Muslim villages. The same may be true in NWFP where there are many Sikhs. Sikh organisations that are helping in the area need to concentrate more on the Sikh victims because the Muslim charities will not be helping any Sikhs and neither will the govt. So as you wrote these victims wll ask where is the Panth in our hour or need. Of all the Sikh charities the best is United Sikhs Ghanaia team. They were the first to ascertain what the situation of Sikhs in Nicobar Islands was and they went through a lot of Indian red tape which sought to prevent outside organisations getting into the Nicobars. Had it not been for United Sikhs I think that most of the Sikh charities would have been doing the usual duplication of work of the big charities.

Most of the people I've talked to say the article is just blowing things out of all proportion. Some even say that it's just an attempt by the voluntary group in the article to get funding from the govt.

I think everyone needs to understand a few things about the time that SP was formed. At that time there were very few Keshdhari let alone Amritdhari youth so it makes sense that most of the SP were either monai or keshdharis. Is there any proof that it was SP that painted the IK OANKAR on the pavement? If not then give them the benefit of the doubt. It is good that Bhaji was able to paint over it. From what I know of those days, most of the Amritdharis and older Keshdharis didn't want to get involved. If Sikhs were getting attacked by Muslims, these Amritdharis wanted to just do Simran and go to Kirtans rather than stand with the younger youth. Sikh schoolchildren were being attacked by older gangs of Muslims and many of these kids were scared to even go to school. In Slough area the Muslim gangs even sent letters to Sikh parents warning them not to send their kids to certain schools as they would attack their kids. This is the ghetto mentality of the Muslims because they think that some parts of Slough belong to them. This was the situation at that time so before we start to badmouth 'punjabi gangs' just try and understand that the situation then was totally different to what it is now. Different situations call for different approaches. As it is, it was not the multi-faith meetings where Sikh, Hindu, Christian and Muslim leaders meet and discussed religious unity, incidentally the Muslim leaders at these meetings were the very ones who were egging on their youth to attack Sikhs!. It wasn't these meetings and racial equality councils and 'asian' voluntary organisations that stopped the Muslim attack on Sikhs but the SP response. Apart from a few minor incidents after the 1997 visit by Sikhs to Chalvey there was no repeat of the attacks on Sikh schoolchildren.

The Akal Takht gave it's decision on gay marriage based on Sikhi. It said that it was incompatible with Sikhi. This means that for Sikhs it is not permissible to have a gay marriage. Every religion has it's set of rules and to stay within that religion you need to adhere to those rules. Does the decision infringe on the rights of non-Sikhs? Does the Akal Takht decision mean that Sikhs are actively attacking and killing gays! This is a far cry from the situation in sharia law countries. The fact is that discrimination is inherent within Islam as well as in the Koran. This leads to an interesting question. Does the fact that a religion promotes discrimination make it immune to criticism solely because it is a religion or should religion be treated in the same way as say a political ideology? In Saudi Arabia non-Muslims are not allowed to set up any places of worship. THis is based on the Koran which says that no other forms of worship apart from Islam are allowed because that is Allah's order! The Saudis enforce this rule. In fact one of the things that made Bin Laden so anti-American was that he felt ouraged when Christian and Jewish soldiers in the US army were performing their religious ceremonies in Saudi Arabia. This was the first time since the 7th century when Mohammed killed and exiled the Jews and Christians out of Arabia that Jewish and Christian ceremonies have been performed there. So the question is then should western countries force Saudi Arabia to discard this policy which is religiously sanctioned or should they discard the human rights of the millions of non-Muslims, mostly foreign workers?

It would be good if Sikhsangat could form some sort of online relationship with Sikh charities that are working with Sikligars. Maybe Jagsinrags Bhaji could liaise between them as he is in the area. If you can set some system for donations then you are definatelt count me in. I remember a few years ago that Nishkam Sikh Welfare Council along with Karnataka Sikh Society started a project to build some houses for Sikligars. They needed something like 50 Lakh and yet it took so many years to get that amount but as we know if some Baba was asking for donations to build another Gurdwara people would collect that amount within weeks and not years. Same goes for the recent earthquake, SGPC, DSGMC and various other organisations can get lakhs for relief but SGPC cannot even contribute a few lakhs for the Sikligars. There is nothing wrong with collecting for relief for earthquake but when you're own people are in need then at least the same organisations such as Khalsa Aid, United Sikhs should do something for Sikligars. As it is making houses for the Sikligars is a good cause but an even better idea would be to provide houses in Punjab for them so that they can resettle there.