dalsingh101

I haven't heard the second sakhi about Baba Nanak but I believe the first one is becoming increasingly well known because Giani Thakur Singh does katha of it (I heard it from him during his recent tour). Penti here refers to the original name of what we know as the Gurmukhi script. 'Penti' as in the Panjabi word for the number 35, but as you probably know letters where subsequently added to this 35 and we now have at least 41 (the extras being the dotted letters which represent Persian/Arabic sounds and the Lalla pair bindi for the retroflex L ਸ਼ ਖ਼ ਫ਼ ਗ਼ ਜ਼ ਲ਼ ). From what I remember of the katha, I think giani said that if you want to learn the language you go to this place and write the first line of the penti (ੳ ਅ ੲ ਸ ਹ) on a paper and throw it in some some tank, it helps you to remember/learn. Whether this sakhi has a basis in a historical incident or not I don't know. But it appears to be a pretty harmless emerging tradition at worst, plus I think it will help but Damdami on the 'historical pilgrimage' trail with the mainstream. Damdami is apparently a learning centre with a long provenance, dating back to dasmesh pita apparently. Apart from donations, I think they have funded themselves through printing gutkay (DDT sunder gutka/pothi), and now with the emergence of digitised gutkay on iphones/laptops their traditional source of funds may decrease, so having more traffic at Damdami (and the ensuing donations) are important - the place does a lot of good work. It's like THE centre for classical/traditional Sikh learning. Forgive any misapprehensions on my part.

^^^^ That's good advice there. We got similar from Giani Thakur Singh on his recent katha tour. When my thinking gets too invasive during Waheguru mantar jaap, I find slowly doing mool mantar simran helps big time.

I tried reading a very interesting interpretation of the Vedas by Sri Aurobindo (The secret of the Vedas) and I've flicked through the Max Muller translation. I don't know how anyone can make strong claims about the Vedas because no one seems to be able to comprehend it in a definitive manner. When I went through Max Mullers interpretation it read like complete gibberish in many places. All that being said, I respect the Vedas because it is THE oldest book in the world and it originated from Panjab - I just think its meanings have been lost over time. Your question about affirmative and negative comments visa vis the Vedas in bani is an interesting one. Aurobindo believed it was a coded work with referred to psychological processes/development using analogy and allegory. When I tried reading it I began appreciate our Gurbani for its clarity and general straight forwardness more.

^^^ It's not about hate. I admire the US for MANY things. My criticisms are NOT hate. You guys blind loyalty thing is plain unhealthy. Fix up.

^^^ Brainwashed to the extent of being unable to process any criticism. ..... lol

^^^ Also, many (if not most) juts seem to be oblivious in exactly the same way some ignorant white people think racism doesn't exist out there because they aren't on the receiving end themselves. I like your attitude. It almost pretty much guarantees a continuation of the current bull5hite. More people play this down (like yourself) than play it up in my opinion.

When I started simran I was shocked at the amount of stuff that comes floating up! lol Don't break your simran, try and 'let go' of the thought so that it floats away like a wisp of smoke. In my case another (seemingly random) furna seems to pop up shortly after. I was advised not to fight these thoughts but to let them disappear - you can help this process by refocusing on your mantar or breathing. The thought usually disappears after a few moments. Actually I love some practical, tried and tested tips on focusing by veteran simraners. Please share.

^^^^ So you don't think we have big problems with jut communalism in the panth then?

Fair point, but look at it the other way also. Selectively attacking countries under the guise of 'human rights' and 'democracy' and making out like you are some paragon of virtue/ethics when your real intention is to grab dwindling natural resources for you own advantage - and causing the deaths of God knows how many innocent men, women and children in the process isn't much better. That <banned word filter activated> feeds and fuels fundamentalism as much as certain whites/westerners like to pretend otherwise.

There are a lot of demented people about. Count yourself lucky that you haven't come across this stuff. It exists. Personally I no longer click on any links that look like they are going to something like this. One thing very commonly used to ridicule Sikhi is the Sikh roop. Some narrow minded people think it looks ridiculous and we all know people have even started very popular facebook groups along this line. I'm not going to mention much of the other stuff I've (sadly) come across - but you do need to wake up a bit brother. Stop being so naive. Just to give you some brief (tame!) examples of what you can expect (just to keep you knowledgeable) - people have insulted Baba Nanak as someone who deserted his family, the traditional Baba Deep Singh narrative as a ridiculous miracle, Sikh roop making people look like apes etc. etc. Don't underestimate people's capacity to be malicious. Christians say 'know people by their fruits' - i.e. by what they do. And as you've alluded too our lot have the whole repertoire of female infanticide, alcohol, loose women, casteism - not to mention that you can usually find at least one 'sardar' at many backward ancient Indic ceremonies/rituals. People aren't focused on us right now because we are 'small fry' - if we ever rise (maybe I should say when we rise), in my opinion it's likely that we some people around us will criticise our society and values - just because people are often j-erks like that.

^^^ No I think he is saying that no one 'caste' should dominate the organisation, which is spot on in my books. This thing is the major hurdle for all Sikh orgs right now and has been for a long time. Let's be frank, certain castes have their own world-view and agendas (say for instance jutts and their issues with a central government (whose regulation of the agricultural sector, they perceive as detrimental to their farming livelihood - as far as I can tell). This shapes their actions. Whereas other Sikhs in different sectors (say construction or traders for arguments sake) for understandable and obvious reasons will not perceive things in this way. Problem with having one group dominating is that there is a tendency for them to try and make their own 'group issues' centre stage as 'Sikh' ones (as opposed to a Panjabi Farmer one in the above example). And that is EXACTLY what has been going on for a good few decades now - and look where it has got us. The whole point of a more balanced representation is that singular agendas (which have proved nothing but destructive so far - from what I've seen) can be avoided and the wider community can feel that they are represented/reflected in their leadership. Currently, we sadly have a situation of 'communal majoritism' where groups outside of the majority are pretty much ignored which leads them to form their own platforms (usually in the form of Gurdwaras), so that they feel that have a stake in things. All Sikhs genuinely feeling that they have a stake in their communities leadership is a essential requisite for a unified quom. It says a lot that the current set up seems to completely ignore this - purposefully in my opinion, because frankly speaking, many, if not most juts like to believe that they are inherently a cut above nonjut Sikhs - for reasons best known to themselves. In plain talk, we have to eliminate the insular, tribal instincts in the Sikh community. Not with any tokenism, not by ignoring issues like they don't exist, but by making sure any organisation caters to all Sikhs - ESPECIALLY the vulnerable and traditionally oppressed/suppressed. So when he talks of ignoring caste, he is talking about a meritocracy that doesn't stifle Sikhs from x or y backgrounds, and one that isn't dominated by the needs and desires of a single caste. Simple as.

It's about time to bump this one up again........

^^^ Thanks for sharing that. Whilst I'm not condoning what the guy has done, from the newsclips you posted it does appear as if T Sher was performing his duties well for a while and seemed to lose the plot towards the end. In any case, compared to what we've seen lately, i.e. convicted sex offenders representing Amritdhari/keshdhari men, T Sher's shenanigans are pretty lightweight. Also, if that's how he roles, he'd probably do well as a behind the scenes political advisor, as politicians almost invariably appear to be devious con men, so he'd have a good grasp of the 'game' better than some simple minded 'white-sycophant' pardaan type 'uncle ji'. lol Obviously if he were to be a part of an organisation, it would be common sense to keep him well away from any accumulated funds, but he could still be useful. Moving on from that, this personal stuff have no bearings on the arguments he's produced in his letter. They are still VERY valid and points we need to implement if we want to engage in the 21st century world instead of closeting ourselves in narrow confines with stuffy, conservative 'uncle jis', who have no political clout and only get wheeled out by the British establishment in a tokenistic manner from time to time. I give the example of Gordon Brown and Ken Livingston turning up at Seven Kings Gurdwara shortly before the formers defeat at Cameron's hands in the elections. I think Sikhs as individuals and organisations need to face up to the fact that cosying up to the political establishment here in Britain today gives us fringe benefits at best. Britain is not the so-called 'Great Britain' of yesteryears and has rapidly lost its former global influence/power, and we need to realise this. So yes, whilst certain MPs might be handy when writing letters to the Indian embassy regarding possible executions of Sikh 'militants' etc. as in Rajoana's case, I can't see how we can really expect too much out of a people who themselves are daily diminishing and seem to be unhealthily clinging to America in order to desperately appear to be able to 'punch above their weight'. Pushing Khalistan or 1984 issues with these people for example (as has been tried for decades now) seems to have largely been a futile endeavor with hindsight. What we really need are organisations that fulfill desperately needed outreach, social and educational roles within and beyond the community. We need people who care about the vulnerable in our society more than self-serving politicians right now.

Thanks for sharing this. Touched on a few things I've been reflecting on lately.

Just saw MIB 3 - was 'okay'... I'm underwhelmed actually......lol

I just got Inception on the strength of certain people's comments.... It'd better be good!!

^^ Thing is, how comes we don't see much progress being made outside of India in this respect? Sure, the above scenario is common / the norm in India but it says a lot that apnay manage to insulate themselves from even the positive aspects of the organisational cultures of the lands they have migrated too.

I agree with the general sentiment that under similar circumstances we, as a community, should exercise restraint. That being said, we also have to face up to the fact that compared to the past we are infinitely more passive as a community today. I disagree with veer Mehtab's notion that generally no attempts to ridicule our Guru's would be made on the strength of our communities reputation. We've all seen 'pi55 taking' videos put up on youtube from time to time. And it doesn't take much for someone to do this. Some people actually think it is hilarious to offend people's sensitivities like this and would do it for no other reason than a laugh! These days I try to restrain myself from judging angry Muslim reactions to perceived attacks on their faith from westerners. Let's be frank, white Europe and Islam have been at it for a long time now. And although I'm not particularly sympathetic towards, or even remotely any kind of admirer of Islam, I can understand why they take 'robust' measures to try and dissuade western sources from attacking their faith in this way. Truth is, our lot would probably do similar if they had the numbers and courage - but we don't - and that is a whole other issue in itself. If people read Orientalism by Edward Said they'd get an idea of the longstanding animosity by western media (formerly in print but now emerging in film) towards Islam/Arabs. To me sometimes elements of the white west seem to behave like a very devious older brother who periodically agitates and irritates his younger more emotional brother in a way that has him react loudly and angrily (knowing full well that he will!) and then stepping back as if he was innocent, when the younger brother has thrown an angry fit and smashed up the room. The problem with this is that it actually helps push Muslims on the periphery into extreme action and bolsters the organised/committed extremists. If we look at it from a historical perspective, the west, through their dubious political maneuvers (historically and in the recent past), have played as much a part in stimulating Islamic fundamentalism as any mullahs have. I guess if we ever got important and powerful enough to pose a challenge to the west (which we most certainly aren't today) our own Guru's/faith may well be under attack too!! But thankfully at the moment we've only got fruit and veg in our homeland and not oil, so we are safe for the moment. Look at what rubbish Ernest Trumph wrote about Sikhi just after the Anglo-Sikh wars for an example of our own faith being ridiculed and attacked in the past, when we were a potential threat.

I thought it was hilarious myself. More of a laugh at rigidly patriarchal and conservative Sikh families than any Sikh values themselves.

^^^ Good idea! We need to follow the American Presidential model in that respect, by this I mean only giving incumbents a limited period so that fresh blood comes in after x amount of years. You know our lot, once they get it, you have to murder them to get them out.

Sikhchic is not usually my cup of tea, but I felt this piece here is spot on in many ways. Please read and share your thoughts. Personally, I'm sick of myopic, petty 'leaders' who can't think big myself. An Open Letter to Sikh Council UK... And to All Others Who Wish to Lead or Represent The Sikh Community T. SHER SINGH DAILY FIX Sunday, September 9, 2012 Dear Members & Supporters of the “Sikh Council UK”: I’ve been following the dialogue triggered by the excellent article by S. Gurmukh Singh on your Council, which was posted on sikhchic.com recently, and wish to address some of the issues raised therein. I want to begin by saying that I laud the goals and objectives stated by the Council as theirs, and agree that such an organization is sorely needed in every nation where Sikhs reside today. There is nothing more or better I would like to see in this context than to have such an organization succeed and be off and running forthwith. It is with these sentiments uppermost in my mind that I’ve penned the following thoughts for your consideration. They aren’t organized … they’ve been precipitated by the back-and-forth I’ve observed through the comments posted on S. Gurmukh Singh ji’s article. Also, a caveat! I do not present them to you as tablets brought down from the Mount. Please feel free to reject them at will, some or all of them. I have no vested interest in any of them, other than the intense desire to see organizations such as yours flourish. All I ask for, however, is that you give these points some sober and quiet, independent and objective thought, that’s all. Flay me, if you will, for things you think I am wrong in, but first, please ruminate on them long and hard before you decide to put me on the rack. 1 Your Council aspires to be an umbrella organization that represents not only all Sikh-Britons but all Sikh-Brit organizations. In other words, you aim to be our collective best-foot-forward. That requires you, I would suggest, to inculcate our credal principles and enshrine our fundamental values in both form and substance, before you step out into the sunlight. These are principles which you begin with, not aim to end up with. It is not good enough to say that you have posted them in your constitution, if they remain nowhere to be seen in practice. 2 You want to be an umbrella organization. Therefore, you have to convince the community that you represent ALL its constituent elements. Not by saying you do, but by actually doing it. 3 Your organization’s public face is represented by your Board of Jathedars. Without knowing too much about them or more than what you and your representatives have revealed so far, my reading is that they represent no more than 5% of the community. Probably far less … you’ll see what I mean, in a few minutes. But let’s me explain briefly by starting the arithmetic: You have no women on the Board. That means it represents no more than 50% of all Sikh-Britons. You have no representation of those who are not keshadhari. That reduces the percentage further: it means your Board represents no more 10 - 25% of all Sikh-Britons. You yourself state that all on the Board have to be amritdhari. That, I’m afraid, reduces the figure further, to the point that, I would guess, your Board represents no more than 5% of all Sikh-Britons. I could go on further, but I’ll let you do the full arithmetic, once you‘ve read the rest of this letter. Now, you might say that you simply cannot have a representative of every constituency on your Board, that it is a logistical impossibility. True. But not being able to represent all is no excuse to represent none. You have 16 members on your Board. That’s an unusually large group and there is no reason why you cannot have all major constituencies represented, if you insist on having 16 of them. 4 It is no use telling us that this Board has no power. First of all, that in itself rings alarm bells. It means that they are a mere front, a façade, and that the real ’power’ resides in a secret clique. Why do I say ’secret’? Because your site is coy about disclosing any information about any other player. That means it’s secret. Some of the correspondents have let out a trickle of information, a name here, a name there, of persons involved with the Council. Why not put all the info, in great detail, on the site itself? When you don’t, it suggests only one thing: you’re hiding something, or that you have an agenda you do not wish to disclose. You shouldn’t be surprised over the scepticism expressed by some of the readers. I am surprised that you are. 5 CONSTITUENCIES: Let me explain in greater detail what I mean by this term. A caveat, though, before I start. I’ll be stating things that need to be done that are crass and embarrassing. But they need to be done. The fact that all our institutions routinely do not do them makes it necessary for me to spell some of them out in crude terms. If you observe the steps properly, they’ll become redundant and can be relegated to the garbage-heap of history. 5A First and foremost, all of your senior levels - executive, honorary, advisory, administrative, voluntary or paid - must consist of 50% women. I was shocked to hear one of the commentators say that you can’t find competent women. Are you kidding? I suggest that the reality today is quite the opposite. It is far more easy to find educated, sophisticated, mature, level-headed women in our community than men, I can tell you from my world-wide experience in the last 40 years. For heaven’s sake, there’s a Sikh woman, Nikki Haley, who is being touted to run for President of the Unites States of America in 2016. Yes, it’s true: she doesn’t call herself Sikh anymore. You know why? Because we as a community have denied our women a seat at the table, and simply will not let them participate fully in the running of our community affairs, that's why. It takes me 5 seconds to come up with a handful of names of women who could lead us out of the mess we are in. You, with more time and resources, should have no difficulty in finding a whole army of them. The Singh Twins in your own back-yard: Amrit and Rabindra Kaur Singh. Valarie Kaur. Mallika Kaur, Gunisha Kaur … Please, please, please do not ever insult our women - and our community the world over - by ever repeating the fallacy that we don’t have enough competent women amongst us. So, the first thing you do if you want to be given the mandate to represent the community is to bring in, not a token woman, or a few, but 50% of your key personnel. If you go by merit alone, I suspect you’ll find it easier to find the right women rather than the right men, believe me. 5B The next major fault-line you need to address is over ‘keshadhari’ and ‘non-keshadhari’ Sikhs. We simply cannot evade responsibility for all the neglect and negligence we have contributed to as a community to date. The fact is that all our problems today are the direct products of our failure to meet the needs of the community until now, including in the present continuum. These problems won’t go away by sheer denial. We need to face them “like a man” - as the expression of yore goes. That is, headlong. The fact of life is that a substantial portion of our community is no longer keshadhari. They are still Sikhs and they MUST be included in all that we do, especially as we move forward bravely into our future. Just as merely being keshadhari is no qualification to run an organization, merely being a non-keshadhari Sikh shouldn’t automatically disqualify you, if you meet the other criteria. If you keep on discarding those who don’t meet your high standards, you’ll soon find yourself standing alone. Every level of decision-making, not to mention the actual delivery of services, MUST include the non-keshadhari half of our community, with no ifs and buts. The only exceptions I would agree with wholeheartedly is, a) we never move away from, or dilute the ideals and goals as enunciated in the Guru Granth Sahib and the Rehat Maryada, and b) the organization should be led at the top by the very crème de la crème of our community - educated, sophisticated, articulate, smart, honest, clean men and women who are also amritdhari. But, remember, the last criterion is not to replace the rest: it is only one of the pre-requisites! 5C I feel ashamed for having to address the next fault-line in our community, but I feel compelled to, because it plagues us like a cancer. Caste. The Hindu practice of caste has crept into the most uneducated, unsophisticated or naïve segments of our population, and which is now being passed on to the younger generations as inherited givens. Our young, though free of the ignorance and superstition that burdened some of us in the past, are not equipped to question what they’ve been born into. Hence, all the more reason our institutions need to make sure they do not side-step this issue. It is central to being a Sikh, not a tangential issue. Certainly, our institutions must correct their own practices before they open their doors, not list it as one of the many goals they wish to address in the unknown future. It is obvious that your Council is not only cognizant of this issue but has bravely taken it on, headlong. I’m impressed that in your list of Board of Directors, not one has demeaned himself by appending a silly caste name. But I do note that many of your apologists - some of them are your most articulate voices - do continue to sport caste names. Not a good idea, if you are out to transform our community for the better and to put our best foot forward. I must hasten to add that their usage of these demeaning appendages may be innocent, that many have merely inherited them. Not a problem. The Council must begin by educating its own members, workers and volunteers as to the origin and import of caste-name usage and apprise them of the fact that Hindu society historically required its lower castes to always identify themselves with these last names. That once we are Sikh, we’ve all been promoted to the highest, most esteemed and honourable level known to man. No longer do you need to display your “low-caste” antecedents because you now belong to a community where all are equal. So, here’s where I’m going: Our community is divided into these silly groupings of jutt and khuttri, ramgharia and bhatra, sodhi and bedi. Certainly, there is a major divide between jutts and non-jutts - (as I stated earlier, I apologise for this crass and crude discussion, but I need to bring it forward because no one else will.) So, if you, the Sikh Council, want to be an umbrella organization and represent all Sikh-Britons, you must ensure that your group of decision-makers - certainly your Board of Jathedars - must have a balanced number of jutts and non-jutts. BUT - you have to do it with finesse and show some class in doing it. No appointment or selection should be such that it represents, or is designated, as a caste constituency. It must be done quietly, privately, so that the result is achieved, but not through creating any acrimony. The test will be that no one should be able to point to your Council ever and scoff it off as a ’khuttri-dominated”, or a “jutt-run” group. Achieve this, and you’ll be well on your way to being a true umbrella organization. Don’t do it, and you’re dead in the water. 5D There are other constituencies, other fault-lines. None, like those above, need to be written down as requirements in the constitution. The mere reference to any of them demeans us - just as I feel unclean even talking about them. What we need is a handful of elders - the real wise and enlightened ones - to keep and eye on the configuration of each board, each committee, to make sure that things never go askew. - Just as it is important to represent 2nd and 3rd generation Sikh-Britons, it is equally important for you to consciously include the 1st generation … especially those who have recently got off the boat. - The young must be liberally represented. Not only as volunteers, but also in the decision-making and policy levels. - We need professionals, but the unlettered ones have an equal say in Sikhdom. Having a group running the show, consisting only of professionals or degree-holders is as bad as having only the uneducated ones at the helm, as many gurdwaras do today. Lawyers, for example, are fundamental to the success of this organization, but taxi-drivers, for example, are no less important and need to be heard. - You in the UK know best your other fault-lines. For example, and I may be wrong, you may want to make sure there is no pre-dominance of Londoners, and that even smaller or rural or remote communities are at the table, not as tokens but as equal players. How about Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland, as opposed to England? 6 Moving on to other essentials: I am in total agreement with those who point to the absolute necessity for ALL senior members to be really well articulate in both written and spoken English. Not just street English, but top-notch language skills. Some of you may have followed the American political conventions held in Tampa and Charlotte during the last two weeks. Notice the Hispanic representatives? Notice how they were the best orators? How they spoke even better than their “mainstream” counterparts? Guess what? They were so good that everyone everywhere has been citing some of them as possible contenders to run for President of the country in the future. Obama became President against super-human odds, not because of his good looks. Check out google and all that’s been written about his language skills! Use that as the bench-mark. No, don’t give me sermons on how important it is to know Punjabi and to promote it. Let’s not get silly: I’m not asking that people write and speak English and ignore Punjabi. They need to do it all. Notice how the Hispanic delegates in Tampa and Charlotte spoke perfect English and spoke perfect Spanish? It’s as simple as that. If you don’t realize the importance of this issue, you might as well go home and concentrate on your day jobs and forget about representing the community. Please, please, please. 7 You need some paid staff. A paid Executive Director. Who has an MBA and a law degree. He/she must not be a relative of anyone on any board or committee of the Council. He/she should be paid well - if possible, higher than the market rate. You need to give her (I’ll stick to one gender from now on) a well-paid and competent staff. They must have a professional office, far from any gurdwara premises, if you know what I mean. You claim to have so many institutional members. Well, prove it! If they are your true members, you should have lots of money in your coffers to do this. If you don’t, then you are but a shell and are going nowhere in a hurry. * * * * * I could go on and on, but I won’t. If you take all of the steps I’ve listed above - and who knows, you may already have - you’ll be able to figure out the rest on your own. I have no personal or vested interest in any of the organizations - yours or any others - but I would give an arm and a leg to see you be successful, trust me. I know none of the players personally, and have no bias for or against. More importantly, if you don’t like any or all that I‘ve had to say, don’t label me your enemy, as you have hastily done with all those who have asked difficult questions arising from S. Gurmukh Singh ji’s article. It may be true that they have vested interests in opposing you. But you are your own worst enemy if you don’t answer the questions fully and honestly, those that have been asked and those that will always be asked as long as you stand in public life. So far, I notice that you haven’t answered the questions, and not provided the information being sought. Information that you should have posted on the very first day you went public. Transparency is indeed difficult, but nothing is worse than keeping things in the dark - there is no future in it. Finally, I wish you Godspeed.

G S Mann , the Sikhscholar indicated that he may know who this doctor was in a recent video.

I haven't read all the thread so forgive if I'm repeating what someone has already posted. The earlier reference to a nihung being mutilated on the orders of MRS doesn't come from British sources but from a Transylvanian doctor who worked for the Lahore state and seems to have been very impartial/unbiased. His name was Honigberger and he wrote about the incident in his memoirs as follows: I also agree with the earlier assertion that today people have a tendency to let their imaginations run riot when it comes to nihungs of old. They were certainly tough and free spirited in independent Panjab, but they weren't complete angels - and I don't see this as any sort of slur before anyone gets their knickers in a twist!! Anyone interested can read more extracts from Honigberger's book here. Not sure if you need a login to view though? The extracts are well worth taking time to read!! http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/12872-john-martin-honigberger-maharajah-ranjit-singhs-doctor/page__hl__honigberger__fromsearch__1

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Fascinating picture! Thanks for sharing. That being said, without more information it's pretty hard to draw any concrete conclusions. I mean personally I'd even be careful about assuming that the man is Sikh without some further supporting evidence. I remember years ago a whole bunch of apnay got fooled into thinking an old picture of some Afghan warlords with some Brits were actually M. Ranjit Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa!! lol Also I'd question previous posters notions that Sikhs would fight along ideological lines as has been suggested. I don't really see much of this. From my understanding I doubt freeing black slaves, would have motivated many Sikhs to the cause, if anything it would probably be more 'mercenary' - i.e. for money? But the idea that some people from India may have fought in the American civil war is very interesting and I hope further research is conducted into the picture, but I doubt many people outside of apnay would be interested in the topic??