dalsingh101

One thing that shocks me is the general failure of apnay to critically reflect on our own community. I mean, sometimes it appears like even highly intelligent brothers like HSD, avoid facing up to ugly truths about our tribalism. And that don't bode well, because if someone generally intelligent and perceptive like that falls at this hurdle, what chance in hell as an average pendu got of overcoming this type of stuff. It just seems like a classic case of dissonance to me. I know it is uncomfortable to face up to our personal and corporate weaknesses - but it must be done relentlessly and ruthlessly right now - for the greater good.

You can feign ignorance as much as you want, most of the Jatt gurdwaray are Singh Sabha ones. End of. And you can keep your stock excuses before you start rattling on with that tired old narrative. Just because some people are sly enough not to put their 'caste name' blatantly on a Gurdwara - doesn't mean people are too dumb to realise what is going on subtly. Only the most ignorant, contemptuous buffoon would try to make out like most Gurdwarays (in the UK at least) AREN'T fractured along caste lines, even if some are foolish enough to advertise their backgrounds on boards on the front - whilst others do it in a more discreet fashion. People like yourself's abject denial of the wider problem and failure to face up to the causes of why everyone seems to want to run from jats like they smell or something just contributes to making the issue fester.

I don't own any Gurdwara peasant. Stop trying to ignore the 'reason' they are leaving btw. The dissonance too much for you?

What else did you expect? Instead of attracting people to the faith, jats have people from poorer backgrounds leaving in disgust at their shabby treatment - do the math..... Apay beej, apayee kahoo. Who are these young men with disposable incomes?

Not at all. When you've got numbers you can get away with all sorts of nastiness. Some of us in racist countries know this. The racism/oppression becomes subtle and normalised. That is what has happened in Sikh society with modern jat culture. And just like goray go nuts at being hooked up on this - so do jats. When you talk to the so-called 'lower castes' in pinds they are invariably complaining about jats and their behaviour, not others. Jats tactic to alleviate his guilt about the sorry state of affairs is to try and make himself feel better about his own people's actions by making himself believe (falsely) that 'others' are just the same - so now he can avoid facing up to the challenge of trying to change things at the source of the problem - his own society, culture and people. That is just weak minded. Central to all this discussion is the matter of power dynamics that arise from numbers and an abuse of this physically, politically and even sexually.

No, it was mine! You stole it from me! :nono:

Maybe if you peasants weren't generally so obnoxious, ignorant and excluding people might actually be inclined to do stuff with you? By the looks of it, you'll have to watch other people moving forward whilst you reap what you've sown for a while. Think of it as an important lesson in humility maybe? Maybe being on the receiving end of what your people have been dishing out may lead to some 'cultural paradigm shift' for the better? Who knows?

Maybe we've had a severe 'brain-drain' from Panjab over the last half century? Even the most well off backgrounds only seem to produce small minded youths who dream of nothing more than coming here and doing labouring/double glazing for a living? What does that tell us. No use blaming anyone but ourselves for this mess.

Good. Maybe jats can start to try and use their heads together (maybe lay off the bhangra, booze and smack for a bit?) and think up of some good plans? Anything beats waiting around and constantly whinging about central government to rescue Panjab - especially when they obviously aren't inclined to do so. Whilst they are at it, maybe, just maybe, they could face up to some bitter home truths about why they are so disliked by everyone - other than wheeling out the old 'because they are jealous' buckwas that has been hidden behind for so long now. We can hope huh? lol

If only it were as simple as that. The real common people are the ones that jats are excluding from Gurdwaray and water wells and treating like scum back home. Wake up to that farmer. Look closer to home to find those who REALLY have been exploiting the 'common folk' in Panjabi villages. Despite God sent warnings to be humble I see that jats STILL carry in with their 'guiltless' nonsense. Carry on - you'll only seal your own societies fate for the worse. No one else will have to do a thing - God will bring down the oppressive, false and haughty in his own time. We can witness that now.

@HSD You tell me, what do YOU think jat societies future holds unless they firstly, frankly and openly admit and acknowledge their appalling treatment of other Sikhs and give up their infantile, fantasist, supremacist worldview WHOLESALE. And this persistent denial/playing down thing like whites do with racism is just pathetic (ala WLS, Shergil and co.) Then (shock, horror) work with and cooperate with - and even take the leadership of intelligent capable members of other nonjat (and even nonSikh) members of Panjabi society who have a strong, inclusive, progressive vision for Panjab's future that doesn't hinge heavily on farming. Frankly - I think a failure to do this on the jat majorities part could very easily seal their fate in a very negative way - if it hasn't done so already.

What does that say about the wider jat community then? Maybe it's the way they stupidly cling to each other blindly, like tribal pendus that makes it easy for them to get used like you are suggesting? Hell, even the British did it by inflating their egos. That is complete rubbish- jat family feuds over land are a staple of jat cultural dynamics and have been for a LONG TIME. To make out like this is some new, modern phenomena just makes it look like you are in denial about the truth. As for jatts and alcohol - you seriously want to go into that? It's not for no reason that songs about jats drinking (jatt hogaya sharaabi) are best selling 'classics'. Drugs I'd agree was a newer thing, probably a result of the failed 'war on terror' in Afghanistan, where a dislodged Taliban allowed opium growers to thrive and seriously increase output whilst the west looked the other way in fear of driving them into supporting the Taliban. I doubt any other smaller group would blindly support a Badal equivalent amongst themselves like jats have done - seriously. He did refer to himself as a jat actually, but not with the meaning of some big-shot, lord of the manor but rather a humble, simple peasant. There is a lot for today's jat to learn from that in my view.

Not at all. Badal is an shining example of exactly the type of selfish, status, money obsessed jat mentality people are complaining about. Earlier some wally made the point about saint ji and his background. Well my response is that Sant ji never EVER exhibited those typical jat traits that have brought jats to their knees today. Sant ji lived humbly and served the panth, todays jat thinks he is some sort of born king. Sant ji lived an austere life, todays jat wants all mod cons and feels jealously suicidal at the next man's wealth. Sant ji hated 'whisky, shisky drinking sardars', todays jats are largely 'whisky shishky drinking sardars'. Sant ji hated based, foolish 'folk songs' and bhangra culture- todays jat argues that these things are jat culture itself. if jats are complaining about Panjab - then they should also take note at who have been at the helm of its leadership uncontested for ages now - fellow jats. Says it all.

Oh okay, you peasants waiting on me to make a comment huh? lol Erm...hows about..... Only the most ignorant hogis in the world (i.e. a lot of them) would act oblivious to the fact that attitudes towards them stem largely from their own behaviour outwards. The abject failure to face up to long term, negative attitudes and actions towards those deemed 'lesser breeds' or 'lower' come home to roost with apathy being reciprocated. But that is lost on the average jat who has a victim complex ironically at par (if not greater) than that the ubiquitous one he frequently 'sees' in others. The long term celebration of alcoholism amongst that society is a fact - be in denial about it at your own peril. The erosion of spirituality based worldviews for a material, status obsessed one (and I use the word 'obsessed' here purposefully!), is plain to see by all. Few conscious jats would deny this. Some questions are in order: How long could the haughty way that jatts buy into anything that fuels their egos really last? What goes up MUST come down? Like their psychological slave-masters the Brits, jatts actually believed their own press pumped into their heads under colonialism without thinking to much about long term consequences or even short term motives of the ego fuellers. Now, just like the once 'Great' British, who haughtily surveyed their massive conquests/empire and believed the sun would never set on it, jatts too are having to reconcile themselves with being brought down a peg or 5 by natural events. Nothing stays static - every 'great' community/race/people of the past have been humbled and brought back down to earth - that is God's way. The main lesson to learn (in my opinion) is that we shouldn't buy into, or encourage inflated opinions of ourselves and our own community, because people easily get carried away with that - until the walls of reality come tumbling around us and we eventually gain the profound understanding (if we are lucky) - that, hang on, we were human and fallible like everyone else, after all. Look, seriously, Panjab jatt society is in a big mess right now. It is hard not to see a lot of this as self-inflicted. How jats of Sikh background have managed to alienate so many of their own Sikh brothers and sisters of a different background is something any jatt with an ounce of integrity needs to ponder upon seriously in my opinion. If after trying this, the conclusion you come to is that 'it's all x, y and z's fault' (i.e. no critical self-reflection), think about the very mindset that causes one to think in that narrow way perhaps? Let's be frank, a lot of us could see the mess we are in today coming way back. Me personally, current events just reinforce my belief in natural, God driven justice: ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਪਿਠਿ ਦੇਇ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ I'll leave you to this debate. Personally I wish we could start getting busy with a grander vision than these caste based ones myself.

I don't know about this specific point (i.e. is Jamdoot referred to in a metaphoric capacity or a literal one) but anyone who says that bani does not use metaphors to illustrate points doesn't know what they are talking about. Look at how often Guru ji referred to themselves as simple 'dhadhis' or bards in bani for example. Now think about the implications of us taking that literally!

^^^ I get your drift, but in my eyes that makes us even worse because the idea of inclusion and diversity isn't new to us, in fact it's divinely ordained. So what's our excuse. Looks VERY BAD on us. What's even worse is that you get people STILL pushing for all that division, even ones who should know better i.e. been educated in the west and exposed to ideas outside of the backward rural Panjabi ones.

What else is there to expect when 'shooting up' heroin is so in vogue amongst the youth of Panjab.

You know I had a thought, if we are going to criticise others, we could a bit of reflection upon ourselves first and also make the statement that 'diversity doesn't work in the panth' as we seem to be so factionalised along caste, politics and jathas and whatnot.

Maybe you're in denial yourself. We KNOW a few of the families that have come here from back home, FROM BACKHOME, who started doing construction work with relatives here before they struck out on their own. So the idiotic notion you have of me walking around swallowing every piece of bull from self-aggrandising hogis is another classic 'duhhh!' thing from you. I'm not denying a few of the jat wannabe builder freshies are poor back home, but your the one who is not in the know, if you think that that type even represents a majority. Or maybe it's because you only rub shoulders with the brokest types of jat, and I meet lots of a different category? Connected, affluent ones, who can afford to pay big money and do all sorts of dodgy things to get their family over - like representing a brother's son as their own etc. So I have my own personal experiences, we have people who've openly exposed the situation like in the video I posted, but you still have your head stuck in cuckoo land. Best of luck too you. Either you're a mug, or you're selling your own bull to the gullible to try and get sympathy for your own people? Who knows? Who cares.....

Thing is, younger, intelligent educated people will better appreciate how the image we have of our Gurus will have been seriously influenced by interpretations of the past - especially the all powerful Singh Sabha views. Visually we'd have been influenced by Sobha Singh. That being said, to try and 'fix' the form of our Guru's based solely on our own intellectuals interpretations obviously has it's own flaws, as they too were human and prone to error and misconceptions. I mean look at the near and contemporary imagery of Guru Tegh Bahadhur - it presents him as a meditating ascetic type, whereas older imagery portray him in a more regal light.

In the orthodox Sikh view, the spirit of Baba Nanak and Dasmesh Pita are one and the same. So the question doesn't really come up.

Why even bother to explain yourself. WLS is a textbook jat-boot-licker. Anyone can see that from 100 miles off. He's the docile peasant the Anglos wheel out on cue to make it look all is alright. Someone who will do what he's told and say what he's told to say.

So shouldn't Sikhs extend the sort of courtesy towards immigrants in Panjab that we experience in diasporas? Plus to be frank, I don't think Sikhs are any less corrupt than the average Indian.

The style seems VERY modern to me. Renaissance or Post-renaissance, which was getting started around Baba Nanak's time in Italy. I'm not saying that it is definitely this or that, but I do believe some reserve needs to be exercised by people for now. And straight up - being an art expert is not amongst Sant Maskeen's many skills as far as I know. So quoting him as some evidence isn't on.

Are you serious? Does that caption constitute 'conclusive evidence' to you? How old are you?