humkire

My simple advice is create more circulation, strength and flexibility in your leg muscles. For this go for loads n loads of long walks, running, swimming, tread mill , aquarobics, aerobics depending if you live urban/semi rural/rural and do simple stretches. Modern day living of sitting on sofas, at computer tables and study tables and neglecting exercising, results in weak muscles, tight muscles, and poor circulation. When you sit, always sit as upright as possible, for good posture and a healthy back. Sleep on a orthopaedic mattress and buy a ''V '' pillow for your back. These are the long term solutions . If your back or legs hurt, you must not try to keep sitting. Go out for a little walk and get back to Darbar Sahib again . Keep doing this. By persisting in your pain you will stressing your muscles which leads to inflammation, injury and more pain! Get someone to massage your back and legs regularly too . At home if you have such pains , relax in a warm bath or have a warm shower if no bath. At home, if you experience physical leg/back etc pains during bhagtee then get up, and continue your path standing up or even laying down if really necessary according to your pain levels. I dont know if you are a slim or fat person but generally try to keep slim and very very fit without an ounch of unnecessary fat on your body! You need to be all muscles., I dont mean body builder muscles but just muscles! One of my friends is an English guy aged around 26 and he is a moutain climber/rock climber and kayak instructor. He does not look muscular, is slim but if you touch him anywhere you feel 100% muscle. Absolutely well toned. Keep an eye on your diet if you are any fatter than you should be at your age. This leads to heath problems and the earliest signs of them are little creaking pains in legs, back , body etc. Pain when sitting cross legged is not the reason for these pains, but symptoms of not tip top health. If you have constant backache problems, amongst all others, a dose of 'declofenac sodium' tablet 50mg once every 8 hours for a few days taken with some milk sorts it out by has to be prescribed by a doctor. Normally, if you phone and leave a message for your doctor that you have backache and request some 50 mg declofenac tablets they will be prescribed without any questions. If you are going for a rehnsbhai or long kirtan session e.g gurpurab etc, then take 2 paracetamols before you leave, and 2 more in six hours time, and in case you can get hold of the declofenac then take one in your wallet and take it at the first feeling of pain. It will keep the pain off your back! and legs! hehe. Learning to sit cross legged does not happen fast but over the years you will get used to it. When you are sitting and listening to kirtan etc, gently gently try communicating and talking to Gurujee who is with you through the meanings of that shabad, path, katha etc . In time this constant exercise will help you to be in a state of 'samadhee' or spiritual trance where your mind is lost in the presence of God and your entire body totally relaxes and loses any stress automatically and feels as light as a feather and you start losing consciousness of your physical body as your mind is taken into heavenly states of divine vision and audience.

Dearest Kaljugi jee, I relate to what you are saying very closely because I had 3 operations myself in the last few years where my life was like a yoyo and I experienced such sharp daily excruciating pains in a way I cannot explain ever. I could even sit, sleep, stand or walk because that pain was like a huge demon killing me wherever I turned! I even thought I was being punished and going to die. The pre and post medicines only played more havoc too. However through this, Gurujee has taught me that Sikhi as I have explained just above this to another person on this thread, is a 2 way traffic. As long as our hearts are sincere, Gurujee himself is Master and Commander of our ship whether it is sinking or sailing! Life and Sikhi are like the waves of an oceon where pain and pleasure, anand and vairaag. and highs and lows are like the waves that take turns to rise and fall and yet strangely enough, are the same water! 'I' am going through the motions yes, but maybe thats fine too and part of Gurujee's kautak and choj to show me what it is without Him and to make my anand and sharda even more worth and of value when I hit my next high. If everything went right for me everyday then I could be in danger of slowly taking things for granted and becoming unexcited. However if prem and sharda, my close friends part from me certain days and i start missing them, I value them in my life even more! and work to keep them as my best mates! haha. You cannot 'up ' your sharda because sharda is a gift of God, a best friend given by God to keep you activated and animated. In fact sharda is a very playful hide and seek friend! Now here, now not here, now there, now not there! And why? Because sharda is the one mate that is thrown by God into your life in order to constantly keep you playing the game of prem, and to keep you geologically active in your spiritual life so that your words, actions and thoughts burst out from your activated amrit -inner being like molten lava in a kind of spiritual volcano! Sharda is like the hidden treasure of a tree that suddenly bursts out insanely beautiful flowers and fruits. A Sikh waters the plant of amrit within everyday painstakingly, sowing the seeds of Naam and Gurbanee and in return our Sacha Patshah 'Mali ' Gur Nanak hands him/her the fruit of sharda so you can engage in ''khel khel akhel khele'' as in you is created a 'chao' for prem kheln. I cannot create sharda but i can beg to Gurujee to produce in me sharda, and I can lay such Sikhi foundations in my life which will seduce and induce sharda, not reduce sharda!

You only get something back if you have lost it! But you have lost nothing! To have become amritdharee is absolutely awesome and amazing. If you did vichar on the worth of you and your live as you migrated from non amritdhaee to amritdharee status, according to Gurmat philosophy of Amrit , becoming Amritdharee and living as an Amritdharee, you would be soooo blown away that you would be lost in bewilderment and shocked at what has struck you! Read absolutely slowly again the book you already have of Bhai Randheer Singh's life and you will realise this for yourself. However becoming amritdharee is very unlike a quick drug fix that gives you instant 'highs'. At the root of amritdharee living lies a need for ghal kemaai. Becoming amritdharee is the beginning of the start of an ardous journey involving guerilla style daily personal warfare with the 5 inner dogs, the demon of ego, and the cousins of all of these and manmat , as well as rigid training to reach the goal of sant sipaheeness. In this journey, there will be highs and lows, periods of crying, ecstasy , joy but also periods of dryness and struggle and doubts. It is a path sharper than the edge of a sword and finner than a strand of hair. You gotta persevere. Love and sharda, prem and bairaag, ras and anand are now your inheritance as you become an amritdharee. Any amount of these that you may have experienced in your pre amritdharee days were just a shadow and sign of what will REALLY come later after becoming Amritdharee as that Amrit slowly roots itself in your being as you water that plant within you daily and painstakingly. Love and its cousins once well rooted within you will become your best friends you cannot get rid off! haha, and embarass you and those around you because true Hari prem can grab you like nothing can , and possess you and use you like nothing can till you will echo what Gurujee says, ''koi akhe bhutna, ko khe betala, ...., bheya diwana sah ka Nanak baurana(SGGS, pg 991)''. Then you will realise that what you experienced in your preamritdharee days was a much shallower shade of vairaag and prem of an emotional kind like a short lived summer pansy. Emotions are clouds that blow around and create a drama in the sky and pre amritdharee love and sharda will be experienced usually with a lot of felt emotion. However, post amritdharee life can change season and become cold , dry, lifeless and unexciting where your ''ghal'' and kemaee'' make you feel you are dragging yourself uncomfortably through the Arctic! However do not worry because deep under the ground i.e in your being these things are quietly developing a powerful system of roots and when Gurujee sooner or later flips the season in your life, and a spiritual spring starts powerful shoots of these prem, sharda, anand and bairaag will sprout out followed by their hidden treasures of fruits and flowers! Hence amritdharee living is a two way street. You need to focus on those steps you need to take, those new foundations and structures you need to lay down in your life and Gurujee will ''kot painda ageh hoe leth heh'' as promised in Gurbanee. Stop worrying too much about your spiritual eelings and emotions and just get on with it. Work out unemotionally how to sort out and improve your amritvela. Have a system in place to start reading the meanings of gurbanee in a daily structured way. Surround yourself with gurbanee translations, and myriads of books, cds, tapes etc on Sikhism , engage with other Sikhs about Sikhism(as I observe you are doing here), go to Sikh youth samagams and programmes, rehnsbhaees, gurudwara, kirtan, attend katha and kirtan programmes, do a lot of ardas, and keep inspecting your life so that you are doing sewa, simran , satsang , naam , dan , ishnan. Be relaxed too so you practising how to be in sehaj. Work out what you need to do , how to transform your life, and do it slowly and steadily and in time things will shine for you. Your words remind me of my garden. When I bought my latest house, there was a garden that had been planted and looked after by an old English lady and it gave me instant joy!!! It was a country cottage garden full of beautiful flowers and plants and little secret paths. However as I settled in, Gurujee started giving me ideas of how beautiful it really could be and how it needed a 100% transformation! Now that wasnt easy because it involved a) quickly acquiring a lot of new knowledge about seasonal planting, and plants , b) a braveness to put in new things, c) money! d) a willingness to think out of the box! and e) patience! Right now as I am typing this I am looking at my garden that is getting transformed and there are new things there that are beautiful like my raspberry plants that are fruiting in late autumn and the little fogs in the newly constructed wild life pond. However there are big brown patches that need to be remodelled into long raised beds for growing onions, garlic , chillies, broad beans etc and then I need to create a long hedge of edible berries of all kinds . So I am not feeling that much of 'anand' concerning my garden right now because things have been dug up and everything is getting moved around but deep in my heart I am excited because Gurujee is giving me the foresight and mental pictures to see that come next spring and summer this garden will be something absolutely and insanely world apart! Now that joy will be a far better and higher class , more meaningful joy compared to the one I had on the day I bought my house and walked around my garden because that was an imcomplete, premature joy. From my observation, it is complacency which is one of our biggest enemies. Reading nitnem like a parrot everyday, not ever bothering to get serious about understanding every single tuk of nitnem, never bothering to go crazy on reading lots of commentaries on Japjee, never sitting down, putting a verse of gurbanee in the brain , then asking God to show you wht It means and not meditating on it for an hour, repeating Waheguru arrogantly rather than slowing down and telling yourself that each time you need to focus on Guru within and say Wah, i.e Wah-Guru , and that each time you say wahguru /waheguruyou are addressing and praising Gurujee. Carelessness leads to an amritdharee becoming insular, parochial, narrow minded, bigoted, simplistic, a slave to his and own zezbad(emotions) , mechanical, robotic, and interpreting Sikhism as a formula. Religion of any kind can lead anybody to become one track minded, and full of hidden arrogance and hatred as you become a devotee of sanctity and suchamthai, rather than of sach. So, instead of worrying about not feeling bairaag and ras in your heart , work hard on restructuring your life through Maharaj's apar kirpa so that in time your every word, thought and action will be Hari prem manifested!

If you read my entire reply carefully, it answers your question as to, how not you will change it! but how Gurujee through his maha kirpa will change it as and when needed. Its the 'i' this and 'i ' that, that will be shifted as you travel on Sikhi dharam marag and slowly become a 'mar-jeevra' Sikh. Its in God's hands more than yours. Yours is to do your nitnem/simran/path/kirtan lovingly ever striving to understand the meanings of simran and gurbanee. Sikhi Marag involves putting your tender baby hands on the mighty strong ''bhug bal'' or arms of God and letting him save, succour, spiritualise and strengthen you according to His Hukum. Gurbanee says 'nadar teri, ardas meri'. So do ardas, and doors will start opening by which you will be touched by Gurujee's grace and the chanan of Gur Maharaj. Make sure you are doing sehaj path of SGGS either from printed version or on the net with meanings, focus on a relationship with Gurujee by remembering Gurujee unseen perhaps to your senses and consciousness is ever present with you, and move away from a mindset involving religious formulas. Making efforts to have translations at hand of Gurbanee, catapulting yourself into a relationship of prem, and prema-bhagtee with Gurujee, and pushing yourself inch by inch everyday to exercise and train yourself to be in the presence of God and Guru and reminding yourself during simran that it is essentially praising God everytime you say Wah-Guru will help shift things in your life over time. The biographies of saints you mentioned in your other post if read carefully, reveal how kemai(koshish) and kirpa meet like 2 rivers to become over time, a mighty majestic single river of immeasurable force! landing you right into God's kanth, kemal and kamal!

To each his/her own! There are no hard and fast rules on this. According to basic maryada, a Sikh should be waking up at before the breaking of dawn/amritvela, daily, and reading nitnem, and either before or after, doing simran, and repeating that at dusk with Raehraas, then Sohila before sleeping. Apart from that focus on swaas swaas simran, chanting, gurbani path, katha and veechar, and keertan according to your awastha, ruchi, prem, sharda, umang and sema. However the trick /secret is to translate all of these into revolutionising and turning your life, thoughts, actions and words upside down from what it used to be in your pre-Sikhi days. Doing any amount of readings and prayers should not be a mechanical, un-understood task and exercise in piousness to gain a few more spiritual clubcard points, but rather a humble endeavour to beg for God Guru's mercy , grace and help as well as to transform the mindset into a gurmat based mindset where Gurujee reigns within majestically using such a sikh for His own glory! A humble and honest relationship with Gurujee should be the aim of our prayer life. This will result in Gurujee guiding us to put the jigsaw puzzle of our gursikhi jeewan in place aacording to His hukum. Gurujee knows exactly how any one Sikh of his should meditate, what he/she should be reading and what they should be doing at the avastha they are in, and what they should be doing, to up that avastha to the next level . However its our humility that will result in Gurujee, favouring, to reveal this to us in ways more than one! Hence lace your thoughts and prayers, as well as the passing moments of your life with continous ardas pulsating in your inner being to God begging for His guidance so that your gursikhi jeewan does not end up as a mental spin-off, of a cocktail of spiritual formulas put together akin to building a ladder to touch the sky!

Thats fine, but you have picked up exactly what pricks or tickles your own spiritual curiousity by lifting off a few examples of darshan from the long lifes of this 3 or 4 blessed Sikhs from the past such as Rampurkhera vale, Bhai Randheer Singh, Ramajee etc etc. You however need to be very thoroughly versed with the lifes/jeewans of these men to understand the meaning, need, context and purpose of a) their experiences of physical manifestations of Gurujee and b) their revealation to others of these experiences. And this understanding goes beyond some fast or casual reading of the biographies or autobiographies of these men because it connects to your personal understanding/ of Sikhi as a result of your own gursikhi jeewan. It is akin to reading gurbani i.e as your gursikhi avastha progresses the same verses take on different and deeper shades of meaning. Likewise when blessed men relate things in a simple manner but as your own avastha increases the real meaning of what they said will become apparent to you. You also appear to be in danger of reading what I have said and others have said in this thread too quickly and quickly rebutting it off with a further counter argument without deeply contemplating the depth of all this advice being given to you to help you see the issue of darshan from new angles and perspectives. The answer to your question in your reply already lies in what I stated in my earlier post , and others posts if you had deeply reflected on them! Sikhism involves 'sikhi sikhiya gur vichar' so vichar or reflecting deep, deeper and still deeper is a hallmark of a Sikh. A Sikh is a saint in the making and saints reflect very deeply not just on a paragraph, or a sentence but every single word of a sentence for the universe of meanings hiding therein! This exercise will make you someone who gets far more depth and the hidden meanings implicit in the jeewans, tales, stories and sikhiya of saints. Also each Sikh's journey is different. The 3 persons you quoted all had different lifes, different experiences and a different audience. Sikhism is not robotic and mechanical. Hence, rather than lift out without bibek buddhee, tales from the lifes of such saints to manufacture a version of Sikhism which makes some physical manifestation of our 10 Gurus as the ultimate fruit of our bhagtee and bandgee and the watermark to distinguish between chardikela and not so chardikela sikhs, you ought to be begging God Guru to humbly to use you as his servant and to create a desire in you to be even less than the sandals that Gursikhs wear! How Gurujee would reward you is His prerogative not yours. The thing to look at when you peek into the lifes of saints is not so much as to how they got rewarded by God, but rather as to the '''ghal kamaee '' they did! This is what will practically give you ideas as to how to move forward, and fast forward, your gursikhi rehni behni kehni sehni so you are covered by God's love and grace. Also you do need to start seeing every sikh as either a potential, on the journey, or realised saint because Sikhi is made up of sant sipahees. Once you start doing that you will never fall into the trap of getting into jethabandis and cults, as unlike true Sikhism which promotes true democratic spiritual brotherhood of equals, they are based on promoting, propagating and perpetuating a feudalistic kind of medieval spiritual heirarchy based on hero worshipping people purportedly ''closer'' to Gurujee than others. Sikhism is not as simplistic as they make it out to be because true Sikhism sees the miracle, magic and might of God, leave alone a 'saint' even in a humble strawberry!!!!! My ego wants 'me' to see God and copy what others see. However my humility begs me to kill that very same 'me' so that in place of me, shines He!

‘mirror’ has posed a seemingly innocent question about Gurujee’s darshan which is actually a proxy, and in disguise really a discussion about the validity of the claims of past and present radhaswami cult leaders to have experienced some sort of physical materialisation of one or all of our 10 Guru Sahibs before SGGS. This then somehow trickling down to create a desire in ‘mirror’s mind for the same. Then there is the issue of darshan to non amritdharis. Hence there are three issues here. Firstly, as far as the Radhaswamis are concerned, they have distorted a) historical facts to falsely justify their ‘guru/sant’ to be a continuation in the line of human Gurus after Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj hence b) not recognising SGGS as the supreme Guru and, c) they have distorted the teachings of SGGS to d) give credance to the existence of their line of gurus/sants and e) to reinterpret the mystical aspects of Sikhism in a catchy manner connected to simplistic punjabee-hinduistic spiritual cultureand objectives to suit their marketing strategy for gaining more followers. I have factually and unopinionatedly, condensed the facts of the existence of this cult very briefly and you can read up from various books and articles on the internet to unpack it. Cults thrive on fabricated lies presented as the gospel truth to attract, deceive, manipulate, and ultimately destroy and there were no shortage of them even during those blessed days of our 10 Gurus lifes on planet earth. Hence ‘mirror’ if you are reading this and are truly a Sikh, then my humble advice is to focus on understanding the philosophy of Sikhism by reading mainstream books on Sikhism of which there are many. This will help you to slowly realise the true meaning of who is Gurujee, where is Gurujee and what it means to see Gurujee. You will realise that it is not as simple as the radhaswamis make it out to be, and you will realise the difference in Sikh philosophy vis a vis radhaswami philosophy as concerns mysticism and the vision of God and Guru and how theirs is a fabricated false philosophy based on lies, which you do not need to entertain either intellectually or spiritually. You will realise their sant’s so called bhagtee, bandagee and simran is nothing but a farce designed to appear holy, divine and God-realised to attract more followers. Secondly, as concerning your own quest for darshan, put away the smoke screen in your mind that justifies either your past bad karma or blindness for your stubborn desire for darshan. Instead, beg every day to be made humble, to live by God’s Will, to do Gurujee’s sewa, to love Gurujee, and stick dead close to gurbani, amritvela Waheguru simran, nitnem, kirtan, and the service of fellow Gursikhs and humanity. These are the key steps towards enlightenment. Be content to see the voice of God, the message of God, the presence of God and the love of God in SGGS and fire yourself up to get excited to love SGGS as your guru incarnate and you will be rewarded by God to see that, which when you see it will be so insanely beautiful, that you realise the worthlessness of just cooking up through ego all kinds of spiritual desires in a manner akin to throwing water to reach the sun! Thirdly, when you realise who Gurujee really is through a life of continous devotion, you will realise the irrelevance of your question about the connection between darshan and amritdharee living. Amritdharee living is a moment to moment blissful, heavenly, blessed and ecstatic existence in the presence of Gurujee. Gurujee on the other hand manifests Himself in any media He desires as He is unlimited in expression. However, the proof is always in the pudding. Darshan of Gurujee in any form changes a person’s life totally akin to how the land of Norway has never been the same after the ice age and its subsequent retreat! I am afraid the radhaswami gurus claims of darshan of gurujee do not meet this kasvatee or standard when you do peek closely into their lifes. At the end of the day they are nothing but another bunch of imposters on the block, the first cousins of the fake prophet saibaba and there is no shortage in India of these. We do injustice to SGGS i.e Gurbani when we content ourselves by reading nitnem mechanically, and do not treat Gurbanee as a countless oceon of god treasures that can rip and tear our mindsets apart ferociously to create in us devtas basking beautifully in the continous presence of The Presence! A Sikh desires more than darshan. A Sikh desires to cry eternally in ecstasy and love at the Lotus Feet of Gurujee! A thorough understanding of Gurbani reveals that the darshan of Gurujee is not objective as is inherent and implicit in the understanding of Gurujee’s darshan you have revealed so far. Such kind of darshans and dreams no matter how uplifting and inspiring as they may be, can be expressions of our own psycho-spiritual make up, which of course we will deny vehemently due to the remnants of our egos which make us believe in what we experience as always been some kind of visionary hand-out from God and Guru! Gurbani emphasises that God Guru is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient even at the sub-atomic level and less, infinitely within and beyond creation. To understand our ten Gurus and SGGS in this light is a first step in that path in the life of a Sikh where he/she sees the darshan of Gurujee opening up subjectively in our life as if curtain after curtain is been torn as we travel forwards revealing an ever changing scenario of His Beautiful Presence. ‘mirror jee’’ if you understand what I have stated then you will realise that your original question is totally irrelevant because there is no true Sikh past, present and future who has not, does not or will not have the darshan of Gurujee. What I see, and, realise or do not realise what I am seeing, is another matter!

_Moorak_ jee, As far as I am concerned Guru Gobind Singh created on Vaisakhi the Khalsa. That is all that concerns me. If you and others want to further believe in sempardas and cults and can somehow justify it, and belong to such subgroups and derive your inspiration through this,it really is not my problem. I am not any less a Sikh for having nothing to do with subgroups and for focussing on just one single simple Khalsa family that does not need no subdivisions.

Gursikha kee har dhoor deh, hum papi bhi gat paeh

Aman0001 Jee, You can spend your whole life reading countless explanations of Naam to educate or inspire yourself( some more authentic than others), and yet never 'touch' Naam. It is somewhat like the difference between someone reading a million books about electricity and someone experiencing an electrical shock. The best thing is to make a habit of waking up at amritvela and practising tongue based as well as saas graas simran of Waheguru. This gets greatly enhanced especially after receiving Amrit. In time, as you chant, you will realise what Naam is, the power of Naam, etc etc within yourself. When I was young, we were started of on a simple explanation that Naam=Waheguru mantra and we need to chant Waheguru continously. None of the scholarly stuff. Later, as we were taught Gurbani, we were given a more indepth explanation via Gurbani santheya that Naam is the power and presence of God through Gurujee, e.g naam ke dhareh khand brahmand. And hence one's understanding grows through gurbani and simran. You can listen to millions of lectures about saag paneer but tasting saag paneer is another level of understanding.

_Moorak_ Jee, As I stated, I had personal conversations with Pipli vale, and heard conversations between him and his closest ring of followers i.e papheh multi millionaires from the Singapore-Kuala Lumpur-Bangkok textile and sports goods Sikh business triangle, and it was crystal clear this was part of his own 'higher level-hush hush ' teaching that he was Guru incarnate, with his total encouragement and acceptance of those who believe him to be such. I do not even consider him a saint or higher level gurmukh but that is not for me to share here. As concerning your other point, it is imperative that heads of sempardas bear responsibility and check on the beliefs of their closest 'followers' or sewaks to ensure only tat gurmat is being followed and none of the romanticist beliefs about that person being an incarnation of one of our 10 Gurdevs. In their desire to portray loyalty, and achieve religious piety such people run the risk of becoming a problem to Sikhism through such twisted and truncated beliefs that hinder gurmat. In the process of adorning the paraphenelia and trappings of spirituality, touring around the globe with 'followers', and becoming popular, a silent rumour can startand snowball that one is a 'saint' or avatar, and as gurbani says, that person can end up a secret slave of his/her own ego, akin to a bumblebee getting trapped by surprise in the magnificent petals of a pretty blossoming lotus flower and losing its bearings and eventually its wings, leading to its death. Hence _Moorak_ Jee, it is better if you got out of this 'pembelbhusa' and focussed on being a simple Sikh not needing sempredas etc as a prop. Focus on gurbani, amritvela, nitnem, saas graas simran, satsang, sewa and nam dhan ishnan and rehat etc and you will receive blessings from God and Guru along the way.

Hehe Kaljugi veerjee, you reminded me of a question that was asked by the teacher of the famous Hindu swami called Ramakrishna when Ramakishna was a small boy. The teacher asked 'is there a saint in your family?' Ramakrishna replied 'no teacher, there is no saint in my family but when I grow up, I WILL be a saint'. So veerjee even if there is none yet, you can be that ''full'' gyani hehe. You have at least my support and I am sure everyone else's too hehe. piche na hetna haha. On a more serious note, yes Khalsa panth has, is, and will be full of such panth de heereh but they do not sound a mrdenga to the world about themselves. Guru jee knows how to secretly bless people(beyond belief!) and yet let others not realise their greatness. I will give you an example. In my childhood and teen years, one of my local gyanees was a blessed Sikh called Gyanee Bachitar Singh. He did more than you can imagine for the panth and sangat and even taught me kirtan through and through to a very high standard , hardly taking any money from me. Yet, no one recognised his greatness. The gurudwara committee saw in him just a paid servant and the sangat saw in him just a man trained to do Sikh rights of passage, akhand paths etc. But in my eyes, he was a chardikela Sikh and there are tears in my eyes typing this about him. Do ardas before Gurujee to lead you to meet such people and He will,if you ask sincerely. There is no denial or minimalism in Guru's house, for those who trust and beg from Gurujee.

I feel kinda lost reading through this entire thread! All this back and forth arguments about these Neeldharee people and their supposed sant/guru!( Mind that blue is one of my favourite colours next to white hehe) All I can say is that back in 1992/93, when I had just arrived in the UK, I had to stay over Christmas with a relative with such connections. He said there is a satsang going and took me to a huge house somewhere around Southall, belonging to a wealthy Sikh guy from Malaysia whose family had migrated here(son the late Dato Ajit Singh, Malaysia.) I realised this was not a 'normal' satsang as there was the guy in the videos posted here called Pipli vale etc and the rest of the neeldharees there. They mentioned that he is also based in Bangkok and i recognised a lot of his followers as being from the businessmen(phapeh) community. Anyway being curious, I decided to learn more about this group so I had a few conversations, even with him personally. I realised that there are 'levels' within 'levels ' or layers upon layers of understanding them. Outwardly as it appears there is all the paraphenelia of Sikhism including metha tekking before SGGS, blue bana, kirtan etc. However, there is an 'inner circle' of knowledge and followers who are hush hush but believe firmly in him as the reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev and as the present Guru(in comparison with the namdhari guru and other neeldharee contenders). They will say one is not required to believe in this, and it is a gyan that dawns upon a person naturally as you go level to level in your association with the group. What I have stated is not hearsay or an opinion but plain facts coming straight from them. There was hero worship beyond belief in my observation with die-hard followers totally trusting him as Guru incarnate though not being too outward in their claims. My advice to anyone reading this is, stick to mainstream Sikhism, accept SGGS as Guru, focus on living life as a true and humble and honest Sikh and refrain from hero worshipping people. God has gifted each one of us with different strengths and blessings and abilities, hence respect these in people and work towards creating a strong Khalsa that is not subdivided into sects. A true Sikh never wants to leave any legacy or subdivision behind himself and lives and acts as a servant of the Khalsa. Take no pride if anyone calls you a saint, and rather act and behave as humble and normal person. Let even miracle powers God may confer upon you mean nothing and play down their significance when people talk about your 'powers' before you. Our emphasis has to be about how to do Sikhi parchar, strengthen Sikh institutions and express Sikhi internationally in this 21st century rather than indulge in any more hero worshipping and mushrooming of cults and sub cults. We need to focus on a futuristic vision of Sikhi, that is built upon our rich past, and takes into account what is current and the shape of things to come.

_GuptSingh_ Jee, I would say do not even 'look' for a wife because women are not a commodity you can look for, as if to buy, or to own. The only thing that should bother you and your parents is walking right on the path of Sikhi, and fulfilling the Will of God, by working out the vision of, why God sent you to this planet, and what you are supposed to do, during your very short stay on planet earth. Let a wife be a gift God chooses for you,, and gives you and comes your way in its own time and way according to God's Will. Such an approach will make you relaxed and relieve you of the tension, worry, mental calculations and stress created by your need, and help you focus on what is at hand. God is a Giver to whom none is equal and we as Sikhs have to live humbly in his Will, focussing on loving Him and serving Him.

Thats a very very beautiful kautak you mentioned above. Indeed

Sorry for a half written post earlier as I pressed the wrong button accidently(admin you can delete that earlier post). Here is my full reply. Artmental Jee, Your question is an interesting one as you can see from the number of enthusiastic replies hehe. The word 'gyani' itself is self explanatory that the main quality of such a person is that he/she has gyan i.e knowledge and in this context means to be enlightened and not in ignorance. A gyani is not just one who can Artmental Jee, Your question is an interesting one as you can see from the number of enthusiastic replies hehe. The word 'gyani' itself is self explanatory that the main quality of such a person is that he/she has gyan i.e knowledge and in this context means to be enlightened and not in ignorance. In Tat Gurmat, a gyani is a person who dwells in a state of enlightenment in the continuos loving presence of God and Guru, always immersed in the humble and loving sewa of God, Guru, Khalsa Panth and sangat. Numerous verses in SGGS attest to this. We tend to use the word gyani more loosely in current terminology to refer to a person who can read and explain holy scriptures, perform religious rituals and Rights of passage ceremonies, as well as look after a gurudwara. Even so, the gyani in such a situation should aim to be an enlightened, blessed gurmukh to do justice to having the title gyani placed before his/her name. The term gyan can be allusive because one could read and sing scriptures correctly and explain them well but a lot of that could be parampara, kitabi, or ‘prea sunia’ gyan, where the person’s inner has not been touched. Refer to the conversation between Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh and Gyani Kartar Singh in ‘jail chithia’ for more indepth into this. On the other hand Gurujee can bless us to start deriving ‘anbhavee’ gyan from our nitnem, gurbani reading, simran, kirtan etc. This places one on the road to becoming a real gyani through Maharaj’s kirpa. To have such a person in a gurudwara is next level talk! The other related issue is that a gyani is both the servant and representative of the sangat. As a servant of the sangat, he/she is constantly looking after the individual and collective needs of the satsangees and sangat, very much like a shepherd, protecting them from anti –gurmat teachings and practises, being at their side in moments of difficulty(like bereavement) and joy, and implementing a wide programme of gurmat education for the kids, teenagers and sangat such as kirtan classes, santheya, bani explanations, punjabi etc. As a representative and leader of the sangat, the gyani leads in ardas before Guru Maharaj by crystallising the needs of the sangat and bringing forward their prayers before God and Guru in sangat ki ardas, and then presiding over parshad bheta and virtaun ki sewa. In this respect, the gyani should be the Real Boss in a gurudwara, helped by 4 other pyaras. This ought to be the form of local level leadership in a Gurudwara. The current system of having a management committee that ‘rules’ is in my opinion very flawed and anti gurmat, leading to court battles and fights. A gurudwara is the door of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj and hence needs to be headed by 5 pyaras, the principle being the gyani. Other issues that have been addressed earlier on are very crucial too i.e a gyani's knowledge of relevant languages the sangat are used to, and I would add, his/her level of computer literacy and education. The ‘rhesh’ of gurudwara gyanis too is a matter of absolute urgent attention that the satkar committee ought to be addressing, as this is leading to the mother of all beadbis for which we are all answerable and punishable.

Artmental Jee, Your question is an interesting one as you can see from the number of enthusiastic replies hehe. The word 'gyani' itself is self explanatory that the main quality of such a person is that he/she has gyan i.e knowledge and in this context means to be enlightened and not in ignorance. A gyani is not just one who can read and explain holy scriptures, perform religious rituals and Rights of passage ceremonies, as well as look after a place of God.In Tat Gurmat, a gyani is a person who dwells in a state of enlightenment in the continuos loving presence of God and Guru. Numerous verses in

chatanga jee, You have misunderstood what I meant. All I meant was that when a person learns gurmat kirtan-sangeet, you are trained to know the difference in timing of ragas, and if you ask any ragi or Sikh who does kirtan in raags, they will tell you exactly what I said, i.e when you are doing Asa ki // you will normally choose raags such as Asa, Todi, Bhero etc. This is the usual maryada you find in Darbar Sahib to anywhere, and you would know this if you are well versed in raags and can work out which raag is being sung when you listen to kirtan. Likewise the rest of what I stated. A student of raag musicology would know why this is so, because morning raags usually go heavy on 'ma' sur rather than 'pa' as you find in Raag asa, which creates a lovely freshly woken up vibe. That does not equate itself to what you understood about what I wrote, whereby you thought, I meant, one is to only sing shabads that were recited in a particular raag according to the timing of that raag in a 24 hour clock. There is no bandish or prohibition in gurmat to not read bani or even sing gurbani anytime not connected to the timing of the raag of that bani. Hence, if someone enjoys singing gurbani in raag jaijawanti at 6a.m, or gurbani in raag bhero at 7p.m, so be it. All I was stating was per gurmat tradition.

hahaha O mere pyareh Mehtab Singh Sahib Jee , do char panj cheh gobi de pakorey sanu vee UK vich email kardo with imli chutney and chai , itheh bohoth hee thand ho gyee heh. garam garam pakoreh sanu garam karden geh. ho sakheh tah thenh aloo athe mooli deh parontheh vee phej deneh haha.

In your case, you were just chilling and listening to a wide range of shabads sung in different raags. Thats ok, and I trust you to have gained much 'laha' by that, and felt love for Gurujee, a quickening of simran, and derived gurmat gyan by listening to gurbani kirtan. Normally, the onus is on a Sikh who does kirtan to work out which ragas are appropiate for what time, and try to sing accordingly either on his/her own or in sangat. For example most morning Asa Ki // tunes are based on morning ragas such as raag Asa, Todi, Bhero etc, whereas a ragi in an evening kirtan darbar would normally sing in raag Sri, Kanra, Malkauns, Sorath, Tilang, Dhanashree etc. You find that some ragas are popular for all times of the day such as Bhervee, Shivranjani, Gunkalee, etc. When you are listening to kirtan, become like a bee sitting on a flower and sucking out the nectar and getting totally intoxicated.

RSingh96 Jee, Its actually good that you are able to realise how you are feeling after school as you go to FB, SS and HM on your computer after school. Too many people are not honest about boredom and everyday becomes GroundHog Day. Life has many related components to it, so make a timetable to work on all of these after school for your personal progress. 1) Physical power and the ability to defend yourself is very important, hence after school have a programme involving going to the gym, swimming, and learning martial arts. You can do phase this out over the week and they will bring plenty of sweat. Play hockey or football too if you can for group sports to be able to interact with others. Aerobics, aquarobics and even dancing classes help you achieve flexibility and CV in your body. 2)Music adds to the quality of life and if you are a Sikh the ability to do kirtan is very important. Hence arrange for tabla lessons at least twice/week and also harmonium and singing lessons for kirtan at least twice/week. 3)If you can read SGGS and understand it line by line, fair enough, but if not, please start going to a gyani to help you read SGGS and even try to start memorising banees in your spare time and also set aside an hour or even 30 minutes each day to read SGGS line by line for meanings. 4)Also, set aside at least 30 minutes if you can everyday after school, to sit quietly and practise doing saas geraas simran with every breath. 5)Most schools etc have a programme where you can read to the blind after school as a sewa. Try doing this or other sewa involving the under privileged at school or in your community. Look up on community activities in your area where you can do sewa of others. Likewise there may be sewa required of you in your local gurudwara which could become a personal project e.g keeping the toilets smelling clean etc, helping gyani in evening semaptee,preparing langar, etc. 6)Do more than just homework. For every module or subject you are studying, read around a lot more by spending more time at the library. You need to aim to achieve an A in every subject. 7)Think of new hobbies for which you could attend classes. Photography, film making, cooking, learning to do more things with your computer(like programming, making websites, editing vid clips,music tech, etc) so you can do more sewa through your computer. New hobbies, a more varied set of interests create a diversity of activities and help to make you more informed and energised. 8) Have gursikh friends you can go out with and explore more. If you are in the UK, there is beautiful countryside all around etc, and there is lots to explore in little towns around the main cities. Even our Gurujees used to travel to preach Sikhi. 9)Likewise invite some non Sikh friends around occasionally too after school to introduce them to punjabi food, to Sikhi and to your family. This will give you confidence in sharing Sikhi and talking about Sikhi to your school mates. 10)After school you can also arrange to do things with others who are at home so you feel more closer and bonded. Remember Sikhi helps you become a magical, energised, communicative, exciting, enthusiastic, excitable, confident and positive person who is intelligent, informed and active. You are a young person who can do millions of things. As you get old, you find it gets more difficult because old-age diseases start to visit, body starts getting colder, bones ache etc. Hence use your youth to your advantage through guidance from Gurujee to do loads things apart from checking a few websites after school. Be a role model for others and do great things for Sikhi.

Japjeev Singh Jee, You have mentioned a few different related issues here, so I'll need to answer them separately. 1)Kaam i.e lust, and krodh-anger, are not two urges that should be let loose without controls, and without the wisdom to work out, when and where they are appropiate. Sikhi does not involve sacrificing these two, but learning the art of utilising them in a constructive manner, beneficial to ourselves, humanity and the universe, as well as pleasing to God. We need kaam in order to reproduce and bond the relationship with our married ones even closer. Likewise krodh is a useful weapon to employ when under threat as Sikh history testifies. Sikhi teaches us the art of using, not abusing these two. A person with uncontrolled lust and anger, can pose a threat not just to others, but themselves as well. 2)A lot of 'it' (as you have stated), is not about kaam and krodh. Sikhi is far bigger than this two feelings. Sikhi involves a lifestyle based on wisdom, truth, love and true peace and joy, of being in rising spirits, of being accountable, responsible and informed. Sikhi is about progress, determination, vision, enthusiasm, caring, sharing and being a blessing. 3)In relation to what I have just stated in (2), be patient with your parents. They are making an effort to do away with unnecessary relationships and friendships, to understand God's Will for their lifes and to go to the gurudwara to learn about Sikhi. There is nothing antisocial about this and in time all of this will bear fruit. They are not wasting their money on drugs, nicotine, drink and parties but using and saving it responsibly and for that you need to be proud of them and support them. While you are ranting about them they are probably praying for your success and happiness everytime they pray or go to the gurudwara. 4)Dont let this affect you badly and make you feel socially awkward as you said. This summer I had to help a 24 year old white English lad, whose father has gone to jail for crimes related to 'kaam'. Now, that was 'real' socially awkward for this lad, because everyone in his town near Cheddar Gorge knew about his father's crimes. Even his mother was so embarassed. Eventually this lad had to help his mom to give up and move out from their beautiful home overlooking the wonderful Blagdon Lake. If you are a kind person, standing up for the rights of others, doing the right things in your life and are a honest, humble and switched on person who looks after others, you do not have any reason to be socially awkward, especially if you do not take drugs and drink as well. 5)There is no such thing as giving up too much in Sikhi. Sikhi is about taking on a new lifestyle that takes all the rubbish out of your life and in its place puts what is good for you and others. Sikhi replaces the stupidity, ignorance and foolishness, and short sightedness which can be the basis of our thoughts, words and actions, with wisdom and discernment so that truth and power shine in our thoughts, words and deeds. 6)Pleasurable things in life is subjective not objective, and a matter of knowledge and wisdom. People think smoking is a pleasure but it is a very very dangerous habit, costing you money and causing you cancer. People think drinking and getting drunk is pleasurable but ask any AA person and they will tell you better. People think snotting cocaine etc is a pleasurable thing but ask any NA person. Put 10 different foods before an un happy greedy angry person and they will moan, but put a bowl of simple home-cooked dall before a humble, loving, contented person and you will see a smile of pleasure on their face. 7)Life is short and not forever. Hence focus on working out your vision of life and doing what you were sent to do, not on the pursuit of some temporary happiness. Happiness does not come by sleeping around, or getting wasted with drugs and drink, and dancing away in a club till 4 a.m, or becoming a gangster or having loads of friends. Happiness comes by becoming wise, focussing on progress, choosing your friends and habits wisely, spending your time and money wisely and focussing on looking after yourself and others responsibly. True happiness comes through Sikhi, and this is a fact, that you will slowly understand if you start to follow the path of Sikhism.

Waheguru, waheguru, waheguru, waheguru, waheguru thanks for that. let us know where to download or stream from, once it is sorted, and dates of coming raag darbars too

veerjee WJKK,WJKF, for those of us who couldn't go, where can we hear the recordings, thanks if you can let us know

''half of what Sant Ji eternally is.''? hehe I would count myself lucky beyond words if I can even be a the tiniest miniscule of a tiny grain of what a true Sikh is, leave alone the great mahan Sant jee who is beyond human comprehension and imagination.