Charan Singh

Coventryseva, Internet voices also represent real humans and real opinions. How funny that u used the 1/4 mile distance to justify beadbi of sikh maryada. U may have alresdy convinced yourself that the meat/sharab is acceptable due to this distance just like the committee of massa rangars have. Things dont change if the attitudes of the local sewadars dont change. U let of a nihang singh jaikara in ur previous post, yet i cant see those qualities in the opinions you've expressed.

SMS camp don't allow any sewadars who are attached to a jatha, taksaal or dal as a lecturer. It's a shame as they mis out on some good english speaking parcharaks. They r a bit narrow minded so the ban on bibekis doesn't surprise me. Theres plenty other camps which are Gursikh friendly this summer.

This news has reached punjab. Just been speaking to singhs in Amritsar who were asking who pardaan Gurdip Singh is. Apparently Avtaar Singh Makkar's PA raised it in discussion today.

I suppose it's not a crime, but if they are going to do a sikh camp and profess to promote Akal Takht Maryada then they need to be more responsible with their parchar and adhere to the Akal Takth Maryada regardless of personal beliefs. I do agree to an extent that some of the girls who have been intimated and harressed need to try and come out to substantiate the allegations.

It's not my claim, I am only communicating what's going around. I have summarised what I think the issues seem to be. I do personally know there was a stong nang influence in previous camps and I know from personal conversation with some of the camp organisers that they have a more relaxed attitude to what I would term as Sikh Maryada. That's only my opinion. Respectfully, Your post and opinion is bias, you need to state the facts and provide evidence as support. Fair enough, I have taken your point on board. I am just communicating my own interpretation from my association with the some of the people involved in the current camp and some ex-campers/sewaks.

It's not my claim, I am only communicating what's going around. I have summarised what I think the issues seem to be. I do personally know there was a stong nang influence in previous camps and I know from personal conversation with some of the camp organisers that they have a more relaxed attitude to what I would term as Sikh Maryada. That's only my opinion.

In a summarised version the Sikh Student Camp has been running for about 5 years now. From what I can understand the main issues seem to be: 1 - Association to Nang/Sanatan cults by allowing their parchar within the previous camps 2- Intimidation and harressment of some girls by a few individuals who are associated as part of the camp organisation 3- Lack of authority and disciplinary procedures at the camp 4 - Overall weak attitude to Sikhi parchaar and lack of rehatvaan Sikhs as sewadars Point 2 seems to be the main concern, where the sangat has demanded that the individuals are banned from the camp. Also, some "violence" seems to have kicked off over the weekend, not sure about the full details of what the "violence" actually was.

As the person who runs the blog is allowing an open discussion (unlike Gurmastak Singh or mrsikhnet, who seems to be editing or deleting comments on his blog anything which appears against the SS camp organiser) I thought it would make sense for more people to see the comments and form their own non-baised opinion. http://www.shindasingh.com/blog/?p=278#comments

It takes the actions of the external enemies to make us realise how weak we have actually become. You are 100 % correct when you say "It's so ironic that we hardly ever raise swords against our silly power-hungry leaders." There have been hundreds of issues of beadbi over the past 20 years which have offended, insulted and upset Sikhs around the world. What has the leadership done about these incidents? You can write letters to the supposed panthic leaders, believe me I have written many. Just don't hold your breath when it comes to actions or replies!

Lakhvir Singh Ji, I partly agree with you but have zero confidence in any current "sikh" leadership. Let's face it, it's India which leader is actually going to do anything about this? The oneous will fall on the common man in the end. Guruji gave the leadership to the Khalsa not the SGPC. What confidence do we have in SGPC, Akal Takht etc? None. Justice in India? Come on Bhaji, let's be realistic!

The SS camp threads keep getting closed by admin. Gurmastak Singh's blog has painted a very biased version of events where he is not allowing certain comments to be posted on his blog. Therefore an incorrect version is being distributed on the e-forums. Admin please keep this topic on because we all have a right to know what is going on. http://www.shindasingh.com/blog/?p=278#comments Shocked? Not really… As many of you may or may not have heard, there was some rawkus in the UK over the weekend that saw a group of individuals hospitalize members from another. Undoubtedly many are shocked at such brazen - “Sikh on Sikh” violence, but from the sounds of it, wasn’t this all a long time coming? Firstly I’m not condoning the violence, although I’m not against the use of violence to accomplish a means, I do hold that violence should remain a last resort, and a certain level of thought / care needs to be taken before one chooses to cross that line, because rarely is it possible to undo such damage. In other words, once you cross that line, there’s no crossing back, so it better be worth it. Now to the real flesh of the topic, as to why was this all a long time coming. I need to make it clear now that I’m not involved in any way with the Sikh Student camp in the UK, never been there, don’t personally know anyone who has, so everything I do know about it, for or against comes from third party sources. Having talked to various people, my understanding of the Sikh Student camp emerged out of the old BOSS Student Camps when the UK Nihang faction (Niddar Singh and crew), were removed from taking part in any shape or form. This led to the creation of the Sikh Student camps which offered what it and those who support the camps claimed to be, a diverse outlook on Sikhi. Now I don’t know how much of an influence Niddar Singh or his minions have on the actual camp but if it’s anything like the views expressed on their website, then we all know how diverse they can be. Also, Niddar Singh and company are no strangers to violence, with news of fights that occur between members of his own group or that of opposing factions emerging yearly whether it be in the UK or stretching as far as India. However, to this degree it has been refuted that Niddar Singh and company have nothing to do with the camps, so I guess we’ll just have to take their (those saying such things) word for it, [to the contrary] that these two “beefs” are not connected. Many individuals in recent times have expressed a disgust with the camps, over videos and images that have emerged on the net depicting individuals in a negative light. Whether it was of organizers’ [can’t say if they are or not] doing there best to imitate Pac, or dropping verses like Chamkila, it’s fair to say that not everyone was happy, and felt that these few reasons alone were a just means to call for a boycott. I would have to give this one to the defendants [sikh Students], simply because you can’t hold the organizers responsible for the actions of a few. The singing and dancing video apparently was done for jokes, and it seems that people are blowing it out of proportion to justify their own means, as for the pictures, not exactly capturing individuals at there finest moments, but again I’ll give some of these images the benefit of the doubt that they were being done for jokes, whether or not you share in their sense of humor I’ll leave to you. What raises an alarm with me however are the allegations of harassment and lude behavior towards the Bibian at the camp. These are always serious allegations that require serious attention, but just posting ones claims on message boards does seem rather redundant, as it rarely serves a purpose in solving the problem. Now apart from the rest the Sikh Student camp has faced many of these allegations and offered assurances that mistakes of the past will be corrected, yet it seems that they have gone against their word, based on various articles. If this is the case then one needs to wonder where their [those behind the camp’s] motives lie. Especially with all the press against the camp one can’t be so naive to the fact that there isn’t more then what meets the eye. After all for the major jathebandi’s to ask for a boycott of the camp, something serious must be wrong. Taking all the above into consideration, its hard not to imagine why individuals would want to see the camp closed, but apart from that there’s also the Gurmat aspect of it. Now I’m not against a camp which promotes a Jatha’s own view or slant on Gurmat, after all every camps views on Gurmat will be slanted in some manor one way or another. At the same time though, I’ve never heard of a single Jatha which condones alcohol, cutting of hair, and discouraging people from keeping rehit. Whether they stress the importance of keeping rehit at there camps or not, [has been said that Rehit isn’t over emphasized to prevent from scaring away the new comers], discouraging people from rehit is absurd, which has been the case reported by those against the camp. Looking at the above its easy to find why those against the Sikh Student camp would feel frustrated by the actions [or lack thereof] on the part of organizers to fix these problems. Would this constitute their right to bomb someone’s car or jumping them in there driveway, probably not, but it does help serve a better picture of what’s really going on. Lastly, are the victims really the victims? No doubt they are the ones who are suffering from the attacks, but how innocent are they to the whole ordeal? After all, imagine if they simply challenged those against the camp by saying something like, “we’re doing this camp one way or another, we dare you try and stop us” or something to that effect, can you really hold it against someone for calling their bluff? Again, I’m not here trying to condone the violence, because like I said earlier violence has a time and place, which I really don’t feel it did in this situation, but to also paint things black and white, having a good guy and bad guy just doesn’t seem fair, since clearly there is a lot of grey area in between. Finally, in-fighting amongst sikh groups is nothing new, nor the violence between them. There has been in-fighting since the times of the Guru’s, and the ways of the elder generations is no deep dark secret. End of the day, we do need to stand up against those who go against the very rudimentary principles of Sikhi, however we do need to leave some flexibility and room for rationality and the ability to agree to disagree. With all the problems facing us, we need to pick and choose our fights, and the amount of energy we exert into each carefully, otherwise we will quickly find ourselves drained with nothing left. Conflicts at the grassroots levels such as Sikhi camps are especially dis-heartening as it sets all parties back when trying to convince parents and youth that they are genuinely interested in helping the kids. One needs look no further then the Bugga camps that used to happen in Ontario in the early 90’s. Ever since the corruption and exposure of those camps parents have had to take that extra vigilance before sending there kids to any camp [which they should be doing anyway’s], but when it comes to those who just don’t have the time, saying no and keeping the kids at home becomes just that much easier. Please read comments in blog http://www.shindasingh.com/blog/?p=278#comments

I'm not a penji, but for some dosh i'd tie a lakhri... You fanatical super katar panthi from the pinds of Punjab!!! Its Rakhri not Lakhri!!!! You is evil..... :nihungsmile:

katar panthis??? whats this a group of tailors LOL

Dear admin why hasnt this thread been shut down like the Sikh Student Camp one its about the same thing http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry182263

Namstangs categorisation of sikhs always makes me laugh, if it's not katarpanthis it's shariapanthis or fundamentalpanthis or nutterpanthis. vah ji vah, you always the expert namstang

Why don't people like Jaz realise this. If karmsar gurdwara is carrying the name of true mahapurashs like Sant Baba Isher Singh then they need to be whiter than white. Otherwise their answerable to the sangat. Blaming other gurdwaras to be worse is not going to help. Karamsar should know better. Look after the gurdwara, make sure no one is abusing the gurdwara. Under "Sant" Partap Singh alot goes on which should not. They may be small to some people and big to others, but they should not be happening especially if he is supposed to be a mahapurakh. Why does he not stop these things? When someone claims to be a mahapurakh, the spotlight falls on them. Do they not realise that people are looking up to them as a represantative of sikh maryada? Their actions affect the people around them and canbring people closer to sikhi or push them away. This could easily become a debate on people claiming to be mahapurakhs or gurdwara karamsar. I've said my bit, I have my own negative and positive experiences of karamsar and "sant" partap singh and would rather keep them to myself.

Hmmmm the last time i went to karamsar was the AKJI programme last year. it was in the upstairs diwan and on the same floor was Maharaj's sachkhand. these pictures have been taken right next to the sachkhand. it shows that the gurdwara is about looks and not respect for guruji. why didnt the gurdwara stop these lot from taking pictures. this is a gurdwara not a romantic ancient indian palace have some respect. sorry but when you see the gurdwara you think they have designed it around the sachkhand. but then for them to allow such pictures to be taken right next to the sachkhand it shows that making people happy is more important Mod Edit- Images have been removed from this post to protect indvidual privacy.

Pictures taken at last months diwan in the Watford community centre. The pictures show the Ragi jatha and Granthi. They are Jagroop Singh & Jatha of Hayes.

GuruPiyaro, If you have not yet had a chance to speak to the Multi-Cultural Community Centre in Watford then please either contact them via phone or e-mail today. This is the last working day before Sunday and we might still be able to convince the Centre to accept the wishes of the UK Sikh community. With Guru Ji's grace we have resolved a fair few beadbi situations on SikhSangat.com before when we have all get together. Please stop the arguements for today and lets all unite under the Nishan Sahib and attempt to resolve the issue. Dhan Guru Dhan Guru Piyaray! WaheguruJiKaKhalsaWaheguruJiKiFateh!!

True say veer ji, we can write extensive postings about committees and beadbi, but actions speak louder than words! If we can't prevent the beadbi from happening than we shoud peacefully protest outside the community centre on Sunday. Watford is off the M1/M25.

My friend, the only person confusing and complicating things is you! So you calling him BABA makes it all justifiable while the namdhari world calls him SATGURU! The man claims he's the 15th Guru of the Sikh. Geeza you must be proper niave, have you not heard the namdhari ardaas ?! And I tell you something else none of Nihang Dals back any dehdhari guru. There are no nihangs at Bhani, stop making things up! Anyways namdharis are mainly from tarkan background familes that's why they are always hanging around the Ramgharia Gurdwaras.

Remember this?? http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/1902/2005-10-23.html Well now its official!! Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Neville Road, London will be converting the Community Centre & School into Banqueting Halls where meat & alcohol will be allowed. They have managed to “lose” 40 Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Community Centre is currently shut while the designs of the Banqueting Halls are being finalised. This is another slap in the face of the great Sikh General Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgarhia. His name will be associated with this insult to the Gurdwara’s property. The new committee promised the local Sangat that they will review this ludicrous idea previously brought up by the last committee. But looks as if both committees were in on it and have decided to proceed with this madness! The Elders Day Care centre has been shut down and so has the gym. The committee just want to abuse this Gurdwara Property by allowing parties and wedding receptions. These massands have to be stopped! This Gurdwara committee continues to conduct themselves as manmukhs. The Gym boys and Elders are really upset about this and we all need to support them to stop this beadbi! Ramgarhia Sikh Gurdwara, 10-14 Neville Road, Forest Gate, London E7 9SQ. Tel: 020 8471 0335 Ramgarhia Community Centre, 270 Neville Road, East London. Tel: 0208 471 9506 The Pardhan’s name is Sukhdev Singh Marway, he’s a councillor of Newham: http://mgov.newham.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.asp?UID=217&J=1

I attended the Luton programme. You are doing a good seva but I didnt like it when the black magic thing was promoted, it was like scare mongering. You should always tell the sangat that to have full confidence in Gurbani. Alot of time was spent on this subject by the the Singh in the Black Kenyan Dastar. Also the Sikhi element doesnt seem to be there in the talks, whats Sikh Awareness without Sikhi?

JUNE 2006 - HUKUMNAMA FROM SRI AKAAL TAKHT SAHIB REGARDING EK NIWAS, WOLVERHAMPTON, UK.

http://www.ethnicimages.com/images.asp?albumid=172&CatID=3 Came accross this website as there is a discussion going on http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/572 about the flag burning.